Why is Allopathic school favored over Osteopathic?

[ppfizenm]

I hope you are not implying that 0.15 point difference in the GPA makes people good or bad students. Or somehow that affects your medical school performance. That's just crazy talk!

Yes, undergraduate performance is important but not when comparing 3.45 to 3.6. Again that's like comparing 230 to a 235 on the USMLE and drawing conclusions about a student.

Same is true for GPA's. Scales matter. The difference between a 3.45 and a 3.6 isn't a small one. You also have to factor in major as well as school.

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[scotchtapetest]

Im a little embarrassed for you that your reading comprehension is so poor....

Go look at my specifics on averages vs the individual. Of course we cant say that a guy who scores 235 on usmle is smarter than a guy who gets 230. however if 10000 people get 235 and 10000 people get 230, if the scores have any correlation at all, then we can say there is a higher % of more capable people in the first group - COMPLETELY without implying that everyone in the first group is more intelligent than those in the 2nd. If you werent so worked up on the subject matter I wouldnt have to hold your hand through this....

However the problem starts when you start quantifying the capabilities... 10000 people get a 230 vs. 10000 people who get 235 means very little when assessing their actual capabilities. While 260 vs 180 means a lot.

Also, there is no need for that kind of talk in an adult conversation.

 

[scotchtapetest]

this is just more of the same.... you have so thoroughly missed the point.... uhg Here's the deal - DO, MD, caribbean, US, mexican, whatever... I just want my doctors to understand statistics

"good" and "bad" are absolutes. "gooder".. er... um... "better" and "worse" do not have intrinsic value other than comparative. The students at hopkins are "better" than the students at my school. However that does not make every individual better than every individual at my school. it also does not mean that the students at my school are "bad".

you are honestly the one operating in black and white....

Fine, so following your argument we should just look at MCAT averages for all schools irrespective of their DO vs. MD.

Then I would have no problem. But people on this thread have been bashing DOs even when there are multiple MD schools with lower averages than multiple DO schools.

 

[Rippy087]

For me it came down to international work opportunity. I am originally from Europe, and I don't think that an Osteopathic degree is accepted anywhere outside of the US. I want to always keep the opportunity of being able to practice outside of the US in the future. That pretty much eliminated Osteopathic for me.

 

[ppfizenm]

For me it came down to international work opportunity. I am originally from Europe, and I don't think that an Osteopathic degree is accepted anywhere outside of the US. I want to always keep the opportunity of being able to practice outside of the US in the future. That pretty much eliminated Osteopathic for me.

In some countries you can practice medicine with a DO. Just depends.

 

[scotchtapetest]

For me it came down to international work opportunity. I am originally from Europe, and I don't think that an Osteopathic degree is accepted anywhere outside of the US. I want to always keep the opportunity of being able to practice outside of the US in the future. That pretty much eliminated Osteopathic for me.

Again not true! There are 45 countries other than the US that you can practice in with a US DO degree.
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a.../Pages/international-practice-rights-map.aspx

Having said that, fine; Nobody is forcing anyone to go to DO schools... Just don't spread misinformation... that's all!

 

[SpecterGT260]

Wow it must be nice to live in your world... Everything so black and white!

However the problem starts when you start quantifying the capabilities... 10000 people get a 230 vs. 10000 people who get 235 means very little when assessing their actual capabilities. While 260 vs 180 means a lot.

Also, there is no need for that kind of talk in an adult conversation.

Fine, so following your argument we should just look at MCAT averages for all schools irrespective of their DO vs. MD.

Then I would have no problem. But people on this thread have been bashing DOs even when there are multiple MD schools with lower averages than multiple DO schools.

yep, we sure should! because I believe the MCAT has value in its ability to predict ability(ew... that was redundant....). prediction doesnt say that it is a hard fast rule that is devoid of exceptions.

and if you are fine doing it regardless of MD or DO distinction then LETS! lets just pick two random schools...... completely arbitrary..... Northwestern and CCOM? and then apply what we have discussed...

the point is, dividing lines exist, and if we attribute worth to one particular rule stick (like the MCAT across large groups of people) it retains that worth in any other similar comparison (school vs school, region vs region, whatever). We can arbitrarily draw circles around groups of schools and say on average these schools have more able students than these others. MD/DO is a dividing line. rationalize away if you must - but nobody is pointing a finger at any 1 particular DO student and saying "you are inferior". if anything the only statement being made is that the average DO applicant will have a longer road ahead of them than the average MD applicant. whether they have to work harder or whatever. this still is not directly relevant to individuals so if you, the individual, are the exception to the averages and what they mean then just smile a little wider and go about your day. or offer to help some of the students in your class who struggle a little bit. thats what I do.

and talking averages is not bashing. god that's frustrating to hear people say.... remember, if you get nothing else out of this: less/more are not the same as good/bad. anyone responding strongly is IMO responding to personal feelings of inadequacy or overcompensating with feelings of superiority (notice i included both sensitive DOs and arrogant MDs here).

 

[SpecterGT260]

boom. roasted

 

[scotchtapetest]

yep, we sure should! because I believe the MCAT has value in its ability to predict ability(ew... that was redundant....). prediction doesnt say that it is a hard fast rule that is devoid of exceptions.

and if you are fine doing it regardless of MD or DO distinction then LETS! lets just pick two random schools...... completely arbitrary..... Northwestern and CCOM? and then apply what we have discussed...

the point is, dividing lines exist, and if we attribute worth to one particular rule stick (like the MCAT across large groups of people) it retains that worth in any other similar comparison. We can arbitrarily draw circles around groups of schools and say on average these schools have more able students than these others. MD/DO is a dividing line. rationalize away if you must - but nobody is pointing a finger at any 1 particular DO student and saying "you are inferior". if anything the only statement being made is that the average DO applicant will have a longer road ahead of them than the average MD applicant. whether they have to work harder or whatever. this still is not directly relevant to individuals so if you, the individual, are the exception to the averages and what they mean then just smile a little wider and go about your day. or offer to help some of the students in your class who struggle a little bit. thats what I do.

Again, my post was in response to a poster who questioned the "intellectual capacity" of DOs vs MDs based on admission standards. When you have MDs at given MD schools being admitted with lower standards than other DO schools. I personally believe that all of them will be great doctors. But it is BS to come here and question a group's intellectual abilities based on flawed assumptions/incomplete data.

When you draw your circles too arbitrary then your results are pointless. When you include MD students from low tier MD schools with students from Harvard and Wash U, and then compare the results as if they are all equal students (with regards to grades) then your conclusions are pointless.

I'm not sure what "longer" road you are talking about, but I'm sure you have some explanation for that too

 

[SpecterGT260]

Again, my post was in response to a poster who questioned the "intellectual capacity" of DOs vs MDs based on admission standards. When you have MDs at given MD schools being admitted with lower standards than other DO schools. I personally believe that all of them will be great doctors. But it is BS to come here and question a group's intellectual abilities based on flawed assumptions/incomplete data.

When you draw your circles too arbitrary then your results are pointless. When you include MD students from low tier MD schools with students from Harvard and Wash U, and then compare the results as if they are all equal students (with regards to grades) then your conclusions are pointless.

I'm not sure what "longer" road you are talking about, but I'm sure you have some explanation for that too

false. just because a selection criteria is arbitrary doesn't make it worthless. I could arbitrarily decide to compare the height of ant hills in michigan vs alabama. Selection is arbitrary. at the end we can still have statistics that tell us who builds taller hills.

 

[scotchtapetest]

Who is bashing DO's?

You and your army are so far off the original purpose of this thread it's...wild.

OP asked why would someone favor allopathic over osteopathic? He also stated that people tend to consider DO schools as backups.

My legendary screenshot served two purposes:

1) It shows as an example why "people" tend to consider "DO schools as backups".
2) It showed ONE of the reasons (remember there are several) why I favor attending an allopathic school over an osteopathic school.

No one has actually insulted anyone for being a DO. No one said DO's shouldn't be physicians. No one said DO's are cavemen, or whatever the hell some of your guys are pulling out of thin air. However, several DO students have come into this thread spewing insults (douchebag, dick, etc.)

The ball rests in your court.

Well maybe if someone came here and questioned your profession's "intellectual capacity" you wouldn't consider it as bashing but I do.

Also for whatever reason you don't want to go to DO school is your personal business and I don't have any problem with it. BUT you were implying that one of the reasons you prefer MD schools is that DO schools (as a whole) have lower admission standards than any US MD school, which is simply false and I pointed it out with hard facts/numbers. If you still want to believe that, then go right ahead!

Also, I personally have been very polite; I can't control others...sorry!

 

[drizzt3117]

1) MD schools have higher admissions standards than DO schools on average.

2) MD students have more research opportunities than their DO counterparts.

3) MD students have a easier time matching into top academic programs in nearly every specialty (EM/FM are possible exceptions; my guess is that at the top academic EM programs such as BWH, MD students are still favored but I'm not sure about top community/communiversity programs like highland, carolinas, etc. 4/42 of the residents at Wisconsin's fam med program (top 3) were DOs)

4) In many cases DO schools are more expensive and have worse clinical sites than their MD counterparts.

5) If you're interested in primary care or private practice in many specialties, you likely won't be handicapped by attending a DO school.

/thread

 

[SpecterGT260]

Well maybe if someone came here and questioned your profession's "intellectual capacity" you wouldn't consider it as bashing but I do.

Also for whatever reason you don't want to go to DO school is your personal business and I don't have any problem with it. BUT you were implying that one of the reasons you prefer MD schools is that DO schools (as a whole) have lower admission standards than any US MD school, which is simply false and I pointed it out with hard facts/numbers. If you still want to believe that, then go right ahead!

Also, I personally have been very polite; I can't control others...sorry!

so when you commented on the "black and white" quality of my life it was sincere admiration?

my bad... I took it as sarcasm

 

[scotchtapetest]

false. just because a selection criteria is arbitrary doesn't make it worthless. I could arbitrarily decide to compare the height of ant hills in michigan vs alabama. Selection is arbitrary. at the end we can still have statistics that tell us who builds taller hills.

If you want to find out the tallest ant hill in Michigan and you compare ant hills in michigan to alabama, then your results and analysis are worthless.

You guys talk about the "importance" of stats and then group students from schools with 25 averages with schools with 35 averages and present them as one equally comparable group of students.

 

[scotchtapetest]

so when you commented on the "black and white" quality of my life it was sincere admiration?

my bad... I took it as sarcasm

That's exactly the same as calling someone a d-bag!

 

[SpecterGT260]

If you want to find out the tallest ant hill in Michigan and you compare ant hills in michigan to alabama, then your results and analysis are worthless.

You guys talk about the "importance" of stats and then group students from schools with 25 averages with schools with 35 averages and present them as one equally comparable group of students.

oh good lord

how many times have i said an individual doesnt constitute an "average".
I have to assume I'm just getting trolled here...

 

[SpecterGT260]

That's exactly the same as calling someone a d-bag!

you make me sad. here is the problem with both this post AND essentially EVERYTHING you have said on the OP's topic:

you make universal statements i.e. "i have been polite" and then when challenged on it you say "well it isnt as bad as _____" these two statements are mutually exclusive, as are many of those youve made on the subject at hand. you cannot have it both ways. it is either an absolute "polite and impolite" or relative "more polite than the guy who called me a d-bag". and I hope you are following that everything im saying is soaked with metaphor for the rest of our discussion up to this point.... its the internet.... "polite" isnt really going to get me going one way or the other

 

[aSagacious]

You guys talk about the "importance" of stats and then group students from schools with 25 averages with schools with 35 averages and present them as one equally comparable group of students.

You don't need to compare the extremes of either group to notice a statistically significant difference between the populations. Let's look at the mean for each group (plus standard deviations to determine how wide our distribution):

cGPA:
DO --> 3.42 +- 0.32
MD --> 3.67 +- 0.26

sGPA:
DO --> 3.26 +- 0.48
MD --> 3.61 +- 0.32

MCAT:
DO --> 25.66 +- 4.18
MD --> 31.1 +- 4.10

To pick on the MCAT averages for a specific example, a 25-26 would put you in the 50th percentile, while a 31 would put you in the 80th percentile. So while a 4 or 5 point difference superficially appears trivial, in the range of interest it is actually very telling.

That said, I don't think I've ever come across a study that attempts to correlate undergraduate performance with competence as a physician (only performance in med school). Until a minimum threshold is decided I don't think we can say that the average DO graduate is any less competent than the average MD graduate. For all we know, a 25/3.3 might be all that is necessary to deliver the standard of care in the overwhelming majority of cases.

 

[scotchtapetest]

you make me sad. here is the problem with both this post AND essentially EVERYTHING you have said on the OP's topic:

you make universal statements i.e. "i have been polite" and then when challenged on it you say "well it isnt as bad as _____" these two statements are mutually exclusive, as are many of those youve made on the subject at hand. you cannot have it both ways. it is either an absolute "polite and impolite" or relative "more polite than the guy who called me a d-bag". and I hope you are following that everything im saying is soaked with metaphor for the rest of our discussion up to this point.... its the internet.... "polite" isnt really going to get me going one way or the other

I didn't realize saying your "world is black and white" is impolite. I thought I was being absolutely polite.

Also, if my posts make you sad, please don't read them

 

[SpecterGT260]

You don't need to compare the extremes of either group to notice a statistically significant difference between the populations. Let's look at the mean for each group (plus standard deviations to determine how wide our distribution):

cGPA:
DO --> 3.42 +- 0.32
MD --> 3.67 +- 0.26

sGPA:
DO --> 3.26 +- 0.48
MD --> 3.61 +- 0.32

MCAT:
DO --> 25.66 +- 4.18
MD --> 31.1 +- 4.10

To pick on the MCAT averages for a specific example, a 25-26 would put you in the 50th percentile, while a 31 would put you in the 80th percentile. So while a 4 or 5 point difference superficially appears trivial, in the range of interest it is actually very telling.

That said, I don't think I've ever come across a study that attempts to correlate undergraduate performance with competence as a physician (only performance in med school). Until a minimum threshold is decided I don't think we can say that the average DO matriculant is any less competent than the average MD graduate. For all we know, a 25/3.3 might be all that is necessary to deliver the standard of care in the overwhelming majority of cases.

I think you typo'd but I agree with you on a graduate vs graduate basis.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I didn't realize saying your "world is black and white" is impolite. I thought I was being absolutely polite.

Also, if my posts make you sad, please don't read them

yep... im getting trolled

 

[scotchtapetest]

You don't need to compare the extremes of either group to notice a statistically significant difference between the populations. Let's look at the mean for each group (plus standard deviations to determine how wide our distribution):

cGPA:
DO --> 3.42 +- 0.32
MD --> 3.67 +- 0.26

sGPA:
DO --> 3.26 +- 0.48
MD --> 3.61 +- 0.32

MCAT:
DO --> 25.66 +- 4.18
MD --> 31.1 +- 4.10

To pick on the MCAT averages for a specific example, a 25-26 would put you in the 50th percentile, while a 31 would put you in the 80th percentile. So while a 4 or 5 point difference superficially appears trivial, in the range of interest it is actually very telling.

That said, I don't think I've ever come across a study that attempts to correlate undergraduate performance with competence as a physician (only performance in med school). Until a minimum threshold is decided I don't think we can say that the average DO matriculant is any less competent than the average MD graduate. For all we know, a 25/3.3 might be all that is necessary to deliver the standard of care in the overwhelming majority of cases.

Thanks, that is all I was trying to say.

 

[drizzt3117]

Although incomplete, I think www.matchapplicants.com is an interesting site to visit. You can look up DO applicants by searching for people who've taken COMLEX. It's interesting to see.

In rads there were maybe 15 DOs with step 1 > 250 and mostly honors and there were perhaps 10 interviews at top 25 academic programs between all of them, with only one matching at a top 25 program (UCSD) which I thought was interesting; most of their interviews were at community programs despite applying to many top 25s. Typical MD students with the same stats would interview at > 10 top 25 programs each.

 

[osprey099]

simple one character answer to the original question: $

 

[235009]

"In 2010, the entering D.O. Class of 2014 consisted of 270 first-time students from different colleges and states. The average class GPA was 3.45, the science GPA was 3.38 and the mean MCAT score was 27. Students averaged 24 years of age with a range from 20 to 47; 47 percent are women and 18 percent are under-represented minorities."

The Jefferson mean GPA for 2009 (couldnt find anything newer) was a 3.6 and 31.6. Is there really that much of a difference in between the two scores? Its a significant difference but based on stats alone are Jeff students that much more academically prepared because of a few MCAT points and a .15 GPA point difference? I dont think so...you can be the judge of that.

while it may seem that these two numbers are comparable, and DO schools would like nothing more than for you to think so, they actually are not. the DO average GPA includes "grade replacement" which artificially inflates the number. so while it may seem like you're comparing apples to apples, you in fact aren't. We have no idea what the actual mean GPA of the DO school is as would be calculated in AMCAS without grade replacement.

Therefore the only measure we have to compare these two schools that you chose as examples is the MCAT...therefore in terms of MCAT percentile:
Jefferson (ranked #60 in US news): 79.1-87.2 (this is a combination of 31 and 32)
PCOM (arguably the best DO school): 56.6–62.5

....that's a pretty significant difference

...i'm not trying to make an argument one way or another, i just wanted to point out the inconsistencies in your comparison and show that you're overlooking certain things to come to the conclusion you want to come to

 

[scotchtapetest]

Although incomplete, I think www.matchapplicants.com is an interesting site to visit. You can look up DO applicants by searching for people who've taken COMLEX. It's interesting to see.

In rads there were maybe 15 DOs with step 1 > 250 and mostly honors and there were perhaps 10 interviews at top 25 academic programs between all of them, with only one matching at a top 25 program (UCSD) which I thought was interesting; most of their interviews were at community programs despite applying to many top 25s. Typical MD students with the same stats would interview at > 10 top 25 programs each.

I can't comment on that particular site and I'm not sure how accurate the data is (I'm assuming it's self reported and not official).

However, I can tell you that one reason you don't see DOs in competitive ACGME residencies is because of the AOA match. I don't care how good your stats are, if you are applying to ROADs you will go through the DO match and if you match you will obviously not go through the NRMP match.

Also, there is no denying that there is discrimination at the top academic places in very competitive residencies. But there is also discrimination if you went some random/low tier MD school (Maybe a little less/maybe a little more...there is no way to qualify it).

 

[scotchtapetest]

while it may seem that these two numbers are comparable, and DO schools would like nothing more than for you to think so, they actually are not. the DO average GPA includes "grade replacement" which artificially inflates the number. so while it may seem like you're comparing apples to apples, you in fact aren't. We have no idea what the actual mean GPA of the DO school is as would be calculated in AMCAS without grade replacement.

Therefore the only measure we have to compare these two schools that you chose as examples is the MCAT...therefore in terms of MCAT percentile:
Jefferson (ranked #60 in US news): 79.1-87.2 (this is a combination of 31 and 32)
PCOM (arguably the best DO school): 56.6–62.5

....that's a pretty significant difference

...i'm not trying to make an argument one way or another, i just wanted to point out the inconsistencies in your comparison and show that you're overlooking certain things to come to the conclusion you want to come to

Exactly how significant is that when trying to decide if someone is a competent physician or not?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Exactly how significant is that when trying to decide if someone is a competent physician or not?

nobody is arguing that you cannot be a competent physician with a lower score - or that you cannot be a competent physician with a lower level of competency than another physician.

do not get sucked down the rabbit hole, specter..... do not get sucked down the rabbit hole....

 

[willen101383]

Who is bashing DO's?

You and your army are so far off the original purpose of this thread it's...wild.

OP asked why would someone favor allopathic over osteopathic? He also stated that people tend to consider DO schools as backups.

My legendary screenshot served two purposes:

1) It shows as an example why "people" tend to consider "DO schools as backups".
2) It showed ONE of the reasons (remember there are several) why I favor attending an allopathic school over an osteopathic school.

No one has actually insulted anyone for being a DO. No one said DO's shouldn't be physicians. No one said DO's are cavemen, or whatever the hell some of your guys are pulling out of thin air. However, several DO students have come into this thread spewing insults (douchebag, dick, etc.)

The ball rests in your court.

Its impossible to continue arguing with you. So claiming that WVSOM students either A. didnt study or B. Are dumb wasnt an insult? It sure was to me...and I dont even go to that school. I dont even know what to say to you if you dont think that making a claim like that is insulting. You wonder why these threads always end up turning into a pissing match...because premeds refuse to actually listen to people who have been there, and who have real life experience vs getting your info solely from SDN.

 

[Sephiroth]

Same is true for GPA's. Scales matter. The difference between a 3.45 and a 3.6 isn't a small one. You also have to factor in major as well as school.

Indeed, if I could add .15 to my GPA and 3-4 points to my MCAT score, I'd probably be interviewing at some top 10 schools.

You don't need to compare the extremes of either group to notice a statistically significant difference between the populations. Let's look at the mean for each group (plus standard deviations to determine how wide our distribution):

cGPA:
DO --> 3.42 +- 0.32
MD --> 3.67 +- 0.26

sGPA:
DO --> 3.26 +- 0.48
MD --> 3.61 +- 0.32

MCAT:
DO --> 25.66 +- 4.18
MD --> 31.1 +- 4.10

To pick on the MCAT averages for a specific example, a 25-26 would put you in the 50th percentile, while a 31 would put you in the 80th percentile. So while a 4 or 5 point difference superficially appears trivial, in the range of interest it is actually very telling.

That said, I don't think I've ever come across a study that attempts to correlate undergraduate performance with competence as a physician (only performance in med school). Until a minimum threshold is decided I don't think we can say that the average DO graduate is any less competent than the average MD graduate. For all we know, a 25/3.3 might be all that is necessary to deliver the standard of care in the overwhelming majority of cases.

I think this sums it all up nicely. And the last paragraph is an important point - and one that applies to the cited lower stat MD schools as well.

 

[drizzt3117]

The top academic residency programs are ALL ACGME. As far as low tier MD programs, yes they find it harder to match but much less so than DO. You can use matchapplicants to analyze the data if you want, but it's pretty obvious from the paucity of DOs at academic radiology programs (not to mention surgical subspecialties)

I can't comment on that particular site and I'm not sure how accurate the data is (I'm assuming it's self reported and not official).

However, I can tell you that one reason you don't see DOs in competitive ACGME residencies is because of the AOA match. I don't care how good your stats are, if you are applying to ROADs you will go through the DO match and if you match you will obviously not go through the NRMP match.

Also, there is no denying that there is discrimination at the top academic places in very competitive residencies. But there is also discrimination if you went some random/low tier MD school (Maybe a little less/maybe a little more...there is no way to qualify it).

 

[willen101383]

while it may seem that these two numbers are comparable, and DO schools would like nothing more than for you to think so, they actually are not. the DO average GPA includes "grade replacement" which artificially inflates the number. so while it may seem like you're comparing apples to apples, you in fact aren't. We have no idea what the actual mean GPA of the DO school is as would be calculated in AMCAS without grade replacement.

Therefore the only measure we have to compare these two schools that you chose as examples is the MCAT...therefore in terms of MCAT percentile:
Jefferson (ranked #60 in US news): 79.1-87.2 (this is a combination of 31 and 32)
PCOM (arguably the best DO school): 56.6–62.5

....that's a pretty significant difference

...i'm not trying to make an argument one way or another, i just wanted to point out the inconsistencies in your comparison and show that you're overlooking certain things to come to the conclusion you want to come to

The ol grade replacement argument. Granted I personally do not know EVERYONE in my class....I know a good bunch of people and actually conducted an informal survey to see if people utilized grade replacement. Nobody had. I certainly didnt. 75% of my class came right from undergrad, so I dont even see when most people would have retaken classes. In fact, let me shoot a quick e mail to our dean of admissions regarding the percentage of my class that utilized grade replacement as a means to artificially boost their grade, I will update the thread if she gives me some sort of meaningful reply.

There is a significant difference between a 27 and a 31....does it mean anything? Doubtful.

Anyways, what is the point in arguing about this stuff? Every thread is like running around and around in circles and getting nowhere. MD schools are going to be a better option with DO schools being the backup....and I would never advise someone take a DO school over an MD unless there are extenuating circumstances. There are 20 something DO schools....with a HUGE amount of variability between them. In fact, PCOM is one of the few schools I actually would go to. There are some that are downright scary. People need to remember that all DO schools arent created equal.

 

[scotchtapetest]

The top academic residency programs are ALL ACGME. As far as low tier MD programs, yes they find it harder to match but much less so than DO. You can use matchapplicants to analyze the data if you want, but it's pretty obvious from the paucity of DOs at academic radiology programs (not to mention surgical subspecialties)

Did you just ignore everything I said or you have trouble understanding the concept of the DO match?

Let me re-state it just in case.

However, I can tell you that one reason you don't see DOs in competitive ACGME residencies is because of the AOA match. I don't care how good your stats are, if you are applying to ROADs you will go through the DO match and if you match you will obviously not go through the NRMP match.

Therefore, many DOs will forgo the NRMP match (which includes the "top academic places") when they match into an AOA program. DO match is before the MD/NRMP match and once/if you match you can't participate in the MD/NRMP match.

This also applies to gen. surg and surgical specialties.

 

[willen101383]

simple one character answer to the original question: $

My tuition is 40,500 a year. Not state school level but that aint exactly expensive compared to private MD schools.

 

[drizzt3117]

Just to tie things all together, here's a good example:

http://radiology.matchapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=536

This person went to an unranked MD school yet got as many top 25 interviews as every DO applicant on matchapplicants put together and matched at a top 5 program.

 

[drizzt3117]

Anyone who's interested in even a decent program in rads will withdraw from the DO match. There are very few DO rads spots and they're almost all mediocre programs in poor locations.

Did you just ignore everything I said or you have trouble understanding the concept of the DO match?

Let me re-state it just in case.



Therefore, many DOs will forgo the NRMP match (which includes the "top academic places") when they match into an AOA program. DO match is before the MD/NRMP match and once/if you match you can't participate in the MD/NRMP match.

This also applies to gen. surg and surgical specialties.

 

[SpecterGT260]

The ol grade replacement argument. Granted I personally do not know EVERYONE in my class....I know a good bunch of people and actually conducted an informal survey to see if people utilized grade replacement. Nobody had. I certainly didnt. 75% of my class came right from undergrad, so I dont even see when most people would have retaken classes. In fact, let me shoot a quick e mail to our dean of admissions regarding the percentage of my class that utilized grade replacement as a means to artificially boost their grade, I will update the thread if she gives me some sort of meaningful reply.

There is a significant difference between a 27 and a 31....does it mean anything? Doubtful.

Anyways, what is the point in arguing about this stuff? Every thread is like running around and around in circles and getting nowhere. MD schools are going to be a better option with DO schools being the backup....and I would never advise someone take a DO school over an MD unless there are extenuating circumstances. There are 20 something DO schools....with a HUGE amount of variability between them. In fact, PCOM is one of the few schools I actually would go to. There are some that are downright scary. People need to remember that all DO schools arent created equal.

you do realize the context of this statement completely disregards the well established value in percentiles right? Id rather hit 80th percentile than 60th.... (and for you hair splitters... rounding the numbers like this is actually more forgiving of the PCOM numbers posted...) that is a fairly large difference when we put everyone on a spectrum.... unless we are operating on the assumption that everyone is equal which I think is silly

 

[zwitterion34]

Here is a possible reason:

Being that those are numerical means, I imagine that there are plenty of students with a score of 22 (or below) on the MCAT thrown in the class cohorts. I prefer surrounding myself with classmates that put a higher priority on scholarly endeavors and their academics... and if one is to try to claim that the folks making up that "25 mcat average and 3.3 GPA" do, in fact, value their academics then it opens up a whole 'nother can of worms requiring one to step back and instead question their intellectual capacity.

I like the caption

 

[scotchtapetest]

Anyone who's interested in even a decent program in rads will withdraw from the DO match. There are very few DO rads spots and they're almost all mediocre programs in poor locations.

OK... if you say so.... I will let all future osteopathic students know!

 

[ppfizenm]

There is a significant difference between a 27 and a 31....does it mean anything? Doubtful.

I personally have nothing against DO's. I know many DO's who I find very competent and would trust them to make medical decisions for me. You can't disregard the only arguably objective measure between DO and MD schools pre-matriculation however. We all take the same type of classes to prepare for this test and have the same study materials available to us.

 

[235009]

The ol grade replacement argument. Granted I personally do not know EVERYONE in my class....I know a good bunch of people and actually conducted an informal survey to see if people utilized grade replacement. Nobody had.

med students are a proud bunch. noone's going to admit that and the fact that you did an "informal survey" like that makes me question your social tact (sorry)

Anyways, what is the point in arguing about this stuff? Every thread is like running around and around in circles and getting nowhere. MD schools are going to be a better option with DO schools being the backup....and I would never advise someone take a DO school over an MD unless there are extenuating circumstances. There are 20 something DO schools....with a HUGE amount of variability between them. In fact, PCOM is one of the few schools I actually would go to. There are some that are downright scary. People need to remember that all DO schools arent created equal.

seems that we agree at the end of the day. the reason these threads keep going on and on is because there are a handful of DO students that can't admit that US MD should always be the first choice (if there aren't any extenuating circumstances) because their ego is too fragile.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I personally have nothing against DO's. I know many DO's who I find very competent and would trust them to make medical decisions for me. You can't disregard the only arguably objective measure between DO and MD schools pre-matriculation however. We all take the same type of classes to prepare for this test and have the same study materials available to us.

thanks.

 

[drizzt3117]

OK... if you say so.... I will let all future osteopathic students know!

http://www.aocr.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=3

Every single one is a community program, the largest of which has 4 residents per year, hope you like taking call if you go to one of those!

 

[SpecterGT260]

med students are a proud bunch. noone's going to admit that and the fact that you did an "informal survey" like that makes me question your social tact (sorry)



seems that we agree at the end of the day. the reason these threads keep going on and on is because there are a handful of DO students that can't admit that US MD should always be the first choice (if there aren't any extenuating circumstances) because their ego is too fragile.

or unless they fully ascribe to the philosophy. However... personally I have a hard time fully ascribing to certain practices which have already been criticized by MD and DO alike in this thread.... just saying that feasibly there could be a person with a 41 MCAT who just thinks OMM (the only REAL discernible difference other than acceptance stats) is the coolest thing since sliced bread. IMO, however, id wonder how someone with such statistically probable high critical thinking skills would believe in something with aspects which almost directly contradict other aspects of training.

 

[scotchtapetest]

med students are a proud bunch. noone's going to admit that and the fact that you did an "informal survey" like that makes me question your social tact (sorry)



seems that we agree at the end of the day. the reason these threads keep going on and on is because there are a handful of DO students that can't admit that US MD should always be the first choice (if there aren't any extenuating circumstances) because their ego is too fragile.

I'm tired of arguing with you all but just as my final post (hopefully):

I would always go to my DO school over many other US MD schools (mainly for location and also I like my school)! There are also many other MD schools that I would've gone to over my DO school! The same thing can be said for people who go to some random low tier MD school vs going to Hopkins vs. going to some other random MD school. For most people it is not as simple as DO vs. MD as it is on SDN!

Also that's just me!

 

[willen101383]

I personally have nothing against DO's. I know many DO's who I find very competent and would trust them to make medical decisions for me. You can't disregard the only arguably objective measure between DO and MD schools pre-matriculation however. We all take the same type of classes to prepare for this test and have the same study materials available to us.

I dont think anyone is ignoring anything here. MD students are seemingly better at taking standardized tests than DO students....thats a fact. At least you acknowledge the fact that there are excellent DOs out there...something that some posters in this thread seem to ignore.

 

[StudyShy]

Oh gawd! I leave for a few months and come back to this?

 

[willen101383]

or unless they fully ascribe to the philosophy. However... personally I have a hard time fully ascribing to certain practices which have already been criticized by MD and DO alike in this thread.... just saying that feasibly there could be a person with a 41 MCAT who just thinks OMM (the only REAL discernible difference other than acceptance stats) is the coolest thing since sliced bread. IMO, however, id wonder how someone with such statistically probable high critical thinking skills would believe in something with aspects which almost directly contradict other aspects of training.

Agreed...and I really dont trust the "OMM guru" students in my class. Are there some OMM techniques that are generally accepted and used in traditional physical therapy...yes. But unfortunately (at least in my mind) the dubious things that are taught really cast a cloud of doubt over the whole field.

 

[ppfizenm]

thanks.

This thread is descending into redundant madness (though I can't help coming back to it every few minutes). People are interjecting to much what if into the numbers. We can bring up all the anecdotal evidence we want but the only truly unbiased way to debate this is with the unmolested numbers.

 

[ensuii]

Considering that every one of these threads reaches incredible post counts and views, you would think that their abundance in any search would preclude people from refreshing the "debate" every other week. At the very least, one should think that moderators who so frequently lock/delete/move threads on so many topics would be quick to pull the trigger on threads like these. I frequent these boards to give advice/perspective when solicited, not to get into pissing matches with other students. Although drizzt3117 seems to have an endless amount of urine, I would certainly appreciate seeing less of these threads.

Just mtc.