Why is Psych not competitive?

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Bmewriter

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This keeps making me confused. This is the field in which you have low hours and yet a lot of pay. Not only that, you connect with your patients far more than you do in other specialities. And if that weren't enough, you have things like:

Microexpressions - that enable you to READ PEOPLE'S MINDS through their emotions

Gottman's Four Horsemen - that enable to you say whether a relationship will survive or not

and having the knowledge to know what makes people happy in general. There is so much power in this field and I'm still wondering why this field is NOT competitive!

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This keeps making me confused. This is the field in which you have low hours and yet a lot of pay. Not only that, you connect with your patients far more than you do in other specialities. And if that weren't enough, you have things like:

Microexpressions - that enable you to READ PEOPLE'S MINDS through their emotions

Gottman's Four Horsemen - that enable to you say whether a relationship will survive or not

and having the knowledge to know what makes people happy in general. There is so much power in this field and I'm still wondering why this field is NOT competitive!

Microexpressions and 4 horsemen are more relevant to psychology than psychiatry
 
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Microexpressions and 4 horsemen are more relevant to psychology than psychiatry

Always thought they should be included in psychiatry though. =/ Those things are super powerful. =D

I wonder actually why psychotherapy is now in decline >_<. Even since I learned about microexpressions and the 4 horsemen, I've been drawn to psych. I use microexpressions when I talk to my patients and it feels good to know what makes them comfortable. :D
 
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Reading people's mind is a cognitive distortion that we try to correct in therapy. Predicting whether a relationship will survive or not is fortune telling-- another cognitive distortion we try to correct. Hope that doesn't kill your buzz. Psychiatry is still the best.
 
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Yep I go to the casino everyday and read the dealer at the blackjack table.

Yeah right. If I could read minds I would do that.

IMHO the real reasons why psychiatry doesn't grab a lot of medstudents...
1) The type of persona that is attractive to the behavioral sciences aren't attracted to the physical and biological sciences. The latter two sciences are the types that usually go to medschool. The first type usually ends up getting a Ph.D.

(I recall walking into Psychology 101 and it was filled with attractive young women. Walked into Biology 101 and all of them were pre-med and almost all men and very few women were not attractive).

2) The basic science years are dominated by professors that have no training in behavioral sciences and they tend to push their own recommendations that are biased. E.g. anatomists recommending students go into surgery.

3) Medicine tends to get filled with people that are very attracted towards one-upping others and making lots of money. Psych is easier on hours. It doesn't make as much money as other fields though it's not terrible, but not enough to attract people for the money.
 
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Reading people's mind is a cognitive distortion that we try to correct in therapy. Predicting whether a relationship will survive or not is fortune telling-- another cognitive distortion we try to correct. Hope that doesn't kill your buzz. Psychiatry is still the best.

LOL! I love this response.

Yes, I'm exaggerating about both. Still, I'm fascinated by the understanding that we have about human emotion and human relationships as well as human happiness. There are so many powerful tools coming out now in this field. And at whopper, Cal Lightman, did that once. He made a lot of dough.

Seriously though, I always go wtf when I pick out a Duchenne smile or signs of disgust and then manuever accordingly. Or when I see contempt...now that's a scary one :D. To understand human emotion at this level is super fascinating to me.
 
LOL! I love this response.

Yes, I'm exaggerating about both. Still, I'm fascinated by the understanding that we have about human emotion and human relationships as well as human happiness. There are so many powerful tools coming out now in this field. And at whopper, Cal Lightman, did that once. He made a lot of dough.

lol. In all fairness if you do a lot of therapy you will be able to identify patterns and formulate some legitimate hypotheses. But that is all it is. Speculation. You need to test it to help the patient get better. It is pretty neat. :)
 
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Yep I go to the casino everyday and read the dealer at the blackjack table.

Yeah right. If I could read minds I would do that.

IMHO the real reasons why psychiatry doesn't grab a lot of medstudents...
1) The type of persona that is attractive to the behavioral sciences aren't attracted to the physical and biological sciences. The latter two sciences are the types that usually go to medschool. The first type usually ends up getting a Ph.D.

(I recall walking into Psychology 101 and it was filled with attractive young women. Walked into Biology 101 and all of them were pre-med and almost all men and very few women were not attractive).

2) The basic science years are dominated by professors that have no training in behavioral sciences and they tend to push their own recommendations that are biased. E.g. anatomists recommending students go into surgery.

3) Medicine tends to get filled with people that are very attracted towards one-upping others and making lots of money. Psych is easier on hours. It doesn't make as much money as other fields though it's not terrible, but not enough to attract people for the money.

They just don't know the power of the DARK side. >=D.

I'm seriously puzzled as to why microexpressions/4 horsemen are not taught in medicine. Contempt has SO much relevance to the current mess of relationships that dominate the wards and I do so much with microexpressions to figure out how my attendings/residents and patients are feeling so that I can respond accordingly.

And the whole salary thing is deceptive from what I read. The hourly salary is good, but most psychiatrists don't work that many hours anyway. So it's not necessarily the case that the salary is that low.
 
And the whole salary thing is deceptive from what I read. The hourly salary is good, but most psychiatrists don't work that many hours anyway.

It takes us the longest to complete a 99214 and we have the highest no-show rate. For example, I recently fractured my finger and ortho charged me $250 for 3 minutes and $180 30 seconds. My finger is fine btw. Psychiatry is still the best. Boo ortho.
 
It takes us the longest to complete a 99214 and we have the highest no-show rate. For example, I recently fractured my finger and ortho charged me $250 for 3 minutes and $180 30 seconds. My finger is fine btw. Psychiatry is still the best. Boo ortho.

Ortho doesn't have the power of the dark side. =D

For real though, I'm just drawn to the field and the power that it brings. That's why I'm so puzzled why no one wants to do it. Whopper explained it though.
 
This is so true

For real though. I feel like you need to be smart to be a psychiatrist. I mean emotions are WAYYYYY more complex than hard facts. To read a person's emotional state and self and then modify your treatment to suit the person takes skill. I wants that. :D
 
You could actually make a lot of money in psychiatry if you know what you're doing.

What is perplexing me is why don't I do that, and instead why have I taken an academic position where I make about 1/2 as much as I could? (Hitting head against the wall).

I was offered a job that pays about $350-400K a year doing only 40 hours a week. I figured a way to make about $250K a year plus highest end benefits (pension with 25 years, healthcare, retirement benefits, etc) while in Cincinnati literally having a very easy job that was almost no stress and while about 50 hours a week of work was really me just sitting there doing only about 20 hours a week while playing video games or watching TV the rest cause my butt had to be parked at a facility for the rest of the time.
 
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You could actually make a lot of money in psychiatry if you know what you're doing.

What is perplexing me is why don't I do that, and instead why have I taken an academic position where I make about 1/2 as much as I could? (Hitting head against the wall).

I was offered a job that pays about $350-400K a year doing only 40 hours a week. I figured a way to make about $250K a year plus highest end benefits (pension with 25 years, healthcare, retirement benefits, etc) while in Cincinnati literally having a very easy job that was almost no stress and while about 50 hours a week of work was really me just sitting there doing only about 20 hours a week while playing video games or watching TV the rest cause my butt had to be parked at a facility for the rest of the time.

Cooooool. So btw, I've heard that psychotherapy has gone to the wayside and all psych really is now is med checks? :(

Is this true? I feel like psychotherapy is a necessary component to patient care....
 
Btw Tired we are trying to have a conversation here. Shouldn't you be using steroids and working on your benchpress?
 
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Psychiatry had the largest jump in US grads of all specialties this cycle. It's still not competitive, but I can see it moving in that direction if it hasn't already started.
 
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I feel like Tired is the Kanye West of the thread lol.

I hope it does. I feel like this field is extremely powerful if you know what you are doing.
 
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Is it possible for someone who wants to make alot of money in psych to increase the hours that they work? Or is it kind of limited in that regard?
I know the hourly wage is high but number of hours is low.
 
Reading people's mind is a cognitive distortion that we try to correct in therapy. Predicting whether a relationship will survive or not is fortune telling-- another cognitive distortion we try to correct. Hope that doesn't kill your buzz. Psychiatry is still the best.
Don't forget we're also trained to detect if people are lying.
 
One reason that micro expressions are not part of standard curricula is that they are not really part of the reality-based community and have a very weak evidentiary base.

From my phone, so I can only leave a link to a bunch of links to papers:

https://m.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/1en9bc/is_there_any_solid_scientific_evidence_that/

Reddit not normally something to take seriously but Ask Science is a little different, since posters generally have verified scholarly expertise in particular fields. My impression is that Paul Ekman and Paul Ekman's students believe in these things, but very few other folks working on emotion.
 
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Yep I go to the casino everyday and read the dealer at the blackjack table.

Yeah right. If I could read minds I would do that.
.

what good would that do? the blackjack dealer doesn't know the cards he is going to deal.

If you could read the minds of poker players, then you could really make $
 
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One reason that micro expressions are not part of standard curricula is that they are not really part of the reality-based community and have a very weak evidentiary base.

From my phone, so I can only leave a link to a bunch of links to papers:

https://m.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/1en9bc/is_there_any_solid_scientific_evidence_that/

Reddit not normally something to take seriously but Ask Science is a little different, since posters generally have verified scholarly expertise in particular fields. My impression is that Paul Ekman and Paul Ekman's students believe in these things, but very few other folks working on emotion.

Wait a minute. They are good at telling you how a person is feeling, not why. Anecdotally, I've been testing them out in clerkships and I'm generally correct in identifying the emotion. I use context for the why part.
 
Personally, I feel like some people are innately cut out for it and others aren't. Yes, I totally know people that went into it that, at least IMHO, weren't cut out for it. A gifted psychiatrist is worth his/her weight in gold--especially in many parts of the country. People struggle to find someone smart in it and insightful, gifted, soundly compassionate, and patient. I've been surprised at those that could be judgmental--that seem oxymoronic for the field--but perhaps some of them are seriously burned out--b/c that definitely seems to happen in psych as well.

And I dig people need to get paid; but I was astonished that this one psychiatrist and her partner cut some patients loose for NO other reason than their insurance carrier--thing is, they didn't refer them to other services--just left them high and dry. Yes insurance carriers can be a pain in the butt; but certain patients shouldn't just be cut off without the right support like that. These clients were not resistant or non-compliant either.
See this is a problem in areas where available psychiatrists are limited. Either that or there are psychiatrists in certain areas that just want to manage patient or medication--no therapy outside of that at all. And at least in my area, this is another of many reasons why they are actively seeking out Psychiatric Nurse Practitioners.
 
Psychiatry had the largest jump in US grads of all specialties this cycle. It's still not competitive, but I can see it moving in that direction if it hasn't already started.

Every year we talk about how much better psychiatry has done with the match and how much more competitive it has become. I think this has been the conclusion for the last 10 matches. Funny thing is that our slots are still filled by about 50% IMG. At this rate, we should be giving Ortho some competition by about the 22nd century. If we cut the number of slots in half, most US grads would get in. If we doubled them, we would be 75% IMG filled. Pay is still just fine and I like the hours. :greedy:
 
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Based on how I saw my friends pick their specialties this year, often times people picked a field heavily influenced by (whether real or imagine) prestige. I don't think many top students in medical school find psychiatry prestigious. When you spend your whole life being a top high school student and a top college student and a top medical student, you are undoubtedly going to be influenced in someway by what people think of your accomplishments.
 
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Based on how I saw my friends pick their specialties this year, often times people picked a field heavily influenced by (whether real or imagine) prestige. I don't think many top students in medical school find psychiatry prestigious. When you spend your whole life being a top high school student and a top college student and a top medical student, you are undoubtedly going to be influenced in someway by what people think of your accomplishments.

Well said.
 
Psychiatrists can be a Dean of a large medical school, and chest surgeons can be generic non-flashy work horses. It is funny how medical students see the long range outcomes in these decisions based on very small exposure. I do think we have a very large image problem however. Fortunately it is image, not substance. :eyebrow:
 
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Psychiatrists can be a Dean of a large medical school, and chest surgeons can be generic non-flashy work horses. It is funny how medical students see the long range outcomes in these decisions based on very small exposure. I do think we have a very large image problem however. Fortunately it is image, not substance. :eyebrow:

It is also unfortunate that psychiatrists are often overlooked to be CMO of large hospitals (both privately owned and in the VA).
 
Lol still don't get what's not prestigious about knowing about emotions and love
 
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True about poker vs blackjack!



Don't ever say this in court. There is no detection of lying in a psych curriculum. In a study, psychiatrists were no better than laymen in detecting who was the liar.
https://www.paulekman.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Who-Can-Catch-A-Liar.pdf

Yup! It's true that I exaggerated about my microexpressions as they tell you what the emotion is, but not actually how the person is feeling. And even THAT is up to debate because you aren't observing it frame by frame like Ekman did. It's a simple twitch that just happens.

Whopper, do you think a good history is better at determining the future prognosis of an individual? I mean, taking an individual, putting him or her in his or her environment and then asking yourself, what would typically be expected in that environment? I feel like using context to problem solve tends to be a good way for me to read situations. If I read a microexpression, then that tends to be more icing on the cake. But I agree. Lie detection...I don't think there is any good tool out there.
 
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Always keep in mind with computational pattern recognition algorithms, especially the evolutionary sort favored nowadays, is that it is often difficult to know exactly what they are picking up on as differences between your conditions.

Story to illustrate: a number of years ago, the Israeli military was working on an automated system for visual detection of enemy armored vehicles from photographs. They trained the computer on a big set of photos they had from military training exercises, showing similar scenes with and without enemy tanks and then testing it on novel photographs. Much to their delight, the algorithm was hugely successful, accurate in 95% of cases. A triumph, right?

Took a while before someone noticed that these military exercises? They were usually carried out in good weather. And frequently canceled when the weather was poor.

The Israeli military had thus developed a highly accurate and sophisticated system for detecting whether the sun was shining.
 
Whopper, do you think a good history is better at determining the future prognosis of an individual? I mean, taking an individual, putting him or her in his or her environment and then asking yourself, what would typically be expected in that environment? I feel like using context to problem solve tends to be a good way for me to read situations. If I read a microexpression, then that tends to be more icing on the cake. But I agree. Lie detection...I don't think there is any good tool out there.

Psychiatrists per the study cannot tell if someone is lying better than a layman.

Don't exactly let that box you into a corner and think that you now can't touch that at all.

Lying is different than malingering. In malingering the person is feigning or exaggerating an illness for a gain other than attention. In that regard we are better than layman because we are better trained in diagnosing illness. There are also printed articles and presentations at professional societies on detecting malingering. So if a guy is holding a card and tells us it's an ace of spades, our ability to tell if he's lying of course will be no better than a layman, but after a thorough evaluation with a guy claiming to be suicidal due to depression we should have an upper hand.

In the case of malingering detection simply follow the professional guidelines often times brought in at AAPL, some of them are printed in Current Psychiatry. For example:
1-Do the signs match the sx (Patient alleges to be depressed but on the unit appears fine when he is not being directly interviewed by you, claims to not have an appetite but eats full meals, etc.).
2-Does the patient's disease course match the known science (e.g. patient claims he has hallucinations that started at age 45 with no history of drug abuse).
3-Can you identify any potential things the person has to gain by faking or exaggerating mental illness? (Is the person homeless and it's cold outside? Is he seeking disability?)
4-Are the patient's sx atypical? E.g. hearing auditory hallucinations in a foreign language, hearing them on only one side of the head, etc.

You could do malingering testing. I'd recommend an M-FAST in a clinical scenario but if it's serious I'd do a SIRS.

Here's some bombs I throw on suspected malingerers...
1-Throw a question that lets them believe they won't get what they're after. In a case where a plaintiff claimed the police bludgeoned his head and he was suing for millions due to memory problems," "Sir if your memory is truly as bad as you claim it is, you will not have the capacity to control the money you win in a lawsuit and will be assigned a guardian. What are your thoughts on this?"

2-Try a medication at a sub-therapeutic dosage first. E.g. Risperdal 0.5 mg daily for a patient alleging to be psychotic. If the patient completely clears up, your suspicion of malingering should light up.

3-Put the suspected malingering with a roommate that you just blabs about everything or is just real real real annoying. E.g. a patient that acted completely disorganized after a day with being with a very manic patient as a roommate, in a very organized manner, demanded to be put in a different room. We allowed him to argue why he needed a roommate showing he had a linear and organized throught process and could advocate for himself.

4-Offer the suspected malinger really fun things to do that someone with his alleged condition could not benefit from. E.g. a very disorganized patient starts playing boardgames in a very organized manner with other patients.

And getting back to laymen, even laymen have an ability to tell if someone is lying. If you obtain enough data, even a layman using such data could catch the liar.
 
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Psychiatrists per the study cannot tell if someone is lying better than a layman.

Don't exactly let that box you into a corner and think that you now can't touch that at all.

Lying is different than malingering. In malingering the person is feigning or exaggerating an illness for a gain other than attention. In that regard we are better than layman because we are better trained in diagnosing illness. There are also printed articles and presentations at professional societies on detecting malingering. So if a guy is holding a card and tells us it's an ace of spades, our ability to tell if he's lying of course will be no better than a layman, but after a thorough evaluation with a guy claiming to be suicidal due to depression we should have an upper hand.

In the case of malingering detection simply follow the professional guidelines often times brought in at AAPL, some of them are printed in Current Psychiatry. For example:
1-Do the signs match the sx (Patient alleges to be depressed but on the unit appears fine when he is not being directly interviewed by you, claims to not have an appetite but eats full meals, etc.).
2-Does the patient's disease course match the known science (e.g. patient claims he has hallucinations that started at age 45 with no history of drug abuse).
3-Can you identify any potential things the person has to gain by faking or exaggerating mental illness? (Is the person homeless and it's cold outside? Is he seeking disability?)
4-Are the patient's sx atypical? E.g. hearing auditory hallucinations in a foreign language, hearing them on only one side of the head, etc.

You could do malingering testing. I'd recommend an M-FAST in a clinical scenario but if it's serious I'd do a SIRS.

Here's some bombs I throw on suspected malingerers...
1-Throw a question that lets them believe they won't get what they're after. In a case where a plaintiff claimed the police bludgeoned his head and he was suing for millions due to memory problems," "Sir if your memory is truly as bad as you claim it is, you will not have the capacity to control the money you win in a lawsuit and will be assigned a guardian. What are your thoughts on this?"

2-Try a medication at a sub-therapeutic dosage first. E.g. Risperdal 0.5 mg daily for a patient alleging to be psychotic. If the patient completely clears up, your suspicion of malingering should light up.

3-Put the suspected malingering with a roommate that you just blabs about everything or is just real real real annoying. E.g. a patient that acted completely disorganized after a day with being with a very manic patient as a roommate, in a very organized manner, demanded to be put in a different room. We allowed him to argue why he needed a roommate showing he had a linear and organized throught process and could advocate for himself.

4-Offer the suspected malinger really fun things to do that someone with his alleged condition could not benefit from. E.g. a very disorganized patient starts playing boardgames in a very organized manner with other patients.

And getting back to laymen, even laymen have an ability to tell if someone is lying. If you obtain enough data, even a layman using such data could catch the liar.

WHERE ARE YOU? BE MY MENTORRRRRRR =D

Lol this is why I love psych. <3
 
It is also unfortunate that psychiatrists are often overlooked to be CMO of large hospitals (both privately owned and in the VA).
the chief of staff at my VA is a psychiatrist.

though i think one of the reasons that there psychiatrists in key leadership/administrative positions are notable as exceptions is because there are fewer psychopaths going into psychiatry than some other medical fields.
 
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This keeps making me confused. This is the field in which you have low hours and yet a lot of pay. Not only that, you connect with your patients far more than you do in other specialities. And if that weren't enough, you have things like:

Microexpressions - that enable you to READ PEOPLE'S MINDS through their emotions

Gottman's Four Horsemen - that enable to you say whether a relationship will survive or not

and having the knowledge to know what makes people happy in general. There is so much power in this field and I'm still wondering why this field is NOT competitive!
psychiatrists dont know anything about what makes people happy and that has nothing to do with the practice of psychiatry. i know there are psychiatrists who do make a career out of this sort of hting but psychiatrists receive no special training in this. the field is focused on the diagnosis and treatment of mental illness. john gottman is emeritus professor where i am and i cant even tell you off the top of my head what the four horsemen are - i only even remember stonewalling! my point is the stuff you are describe is not common knowledge for psychiatrists.
 
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Certainly you don't need those to diagnose mental illness. But I'm surprised those are not taught as emotions and relationships are related to mental health.

As far as I'm aware, there is good amount of backing for both 4 horsemen and microexpressions as signals of emotions (not so much as tools for lie detection)
 
Certainly you don't need those to diagnose mental illness. But I'm surprised those are not taught as emotions and relationships are related to mental health.

As far as I'm aware, there is good amount of backing for both 4 horsemen and microexpressions as signals of emotions (not so much as tools for lie detection)

Maybe you have the wrong idea of where I would've heard of such a thing as I've made my way from biology undergrad to medical school and then to being tossed overboard into the world of mental illness, scrambling to keep my head above water.

You say 4 horsemen and I'm looking for The Apocalypse.

I am of course interested in picking up general psychology along the way aside from the C- I got in it in 1992. Of which I remember not one f'n thing.

We're physicians first remember. That thing takes you 8 years to get.

And not all of us grew up snortling along with the intellectual escapades of Frazier. Or majored in psychology dying to be that psychy psych guy with the subdued intellectual style.

I used to think this was a bad thing and that I was somehow deficient for not knowing general psych stuff. I don't anymore. The people with these backgrounds are no better than the rest of us at doing the job. And I'd rather assemble my own custom academic framework around the clinical questions I face.
 
I think not knowing anything about what makes people happy is taking it a bit far, though the point stands (we are more about treating psychopathology than optimizing human experience). Still, ideas of meaning, mastery, pleasure, living in accordance with values, acceptance and mindfulness are becoming typical fare in CBT and, in my opinion, tell you something about how people improve their wellbeing / happiness.

As for microexpressions etc they are fun to read about on your own and you could incorporate them, though they aren't taught. I believe some modilities like intensive short term psychodynamic psychotherapy incorporate some of this.
 
I think not knowing anything about what makes people happy is taking it a bit far, though the point stands (we are more about treating psychopathology than optimizing human experience). Still, ideas of meaning, mastery, pleasure, living in accordance with values, acceptance and mindfulness are becoming typical fare in CBT and, in my opinion, tell you something about how people improve their wellbeing / happiness.
well this is completely different from anything about what causes happiness. if your program is teaching you about happiness and its causes, it would be the exception that proves the rule.
 
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