Why is University of Washington a top 10 school? (UW vs Pitt)

[RikaN]

I feel thankful to have been accepted to both of these schools. But now I am completely lost as to which to pick.

People keep telling me UW is a top 10 school now-- USNR for 2015: UW is #10 for research, higher than Pitt at #17. UW is also #1 for primary care. But I don't want to go into primary care or strictly academia/research so does this even matter? I'm inclined to believe 'no', but I can't shake off all those peopel who keep telling me UW being "a top 10 school" means it hands down beats any lower ranked school. I don't know if I can agree with this though.


Opportunities for students:
UW seemed much more run-down to me, not just in terms of facilities but also just opportunities-- it seemed like there were fewer resources for each med student (for example: you aren't guaranteed things like funding for summer research or travel abroad because you still have to compete with your classmates for it).

In contrast, Pitt offers plenty of resources to fund research or summer travel as well as international rotations. Their medical center, sim lab, and other facilities such as student housing all looked really great too.


"Feel"/student body:
I'm not sure how to put this, it's kind of an intangible thing-- but so I've had really exciting and interesting conversations with med students at various other interviews, from talking about curricular structure and research projects to the new Hunger Games movie and Miley Cyrus, but the students I happened to meet on my interview day at UW just seemed more disengaged and apathetic, not only about med school, but like the world in general. Maybe my interview day just happened to coincide with an upcoming big exam and they were all tired? But I've talked to students at other schools where I interviewed who had gotten no sleep the night and they were still quite enthusiastic so I'm not sure what to make of this.

Also UW's student body is simply not as diverse, culturally/intellectually/ideologically-speaking as Pitt's, naturally given that 90+% of its class is in-state whereas Pitt is a private school that draws from around the country.


Preparation for residency:
Another thing is that the UW match list doesn't exactly blow you out of the water while Pitt's kind of does. UW students also admitted to having had really low Step 1 averages in recent years on my interview day. Though the administration is now actively trying to improve this, I'd be willing to bet it's still lower than for any other top 20 school.


Cost:
UW comes out to 16K cheaper than Pitt for the first year for me, so does that mean I'd save about $65-70K in total over four years? Is that a significant enough value to make it really irresponsible for me to choose Pitt over UW? Especially again when we factor in that UW is better ranked (and theoretically "the better school" as a lot of my peers keep telling me)? It sounds like a lot of money to me now obviously but I don't really have a concept of what an additional $70K in loans means relatively speaking in the long run.

Why is UW so highly ranked anyway? Simply because it serves as the in-state school for 5 states so naturally it has to be good? Or is its research ranking in particular seriously inflated simply because it is affiliated with research powerhouses like Fred Hutch, which is great for Seattle but probably has little to no bearing on my experience as a med student? Or are there aspects of UW that truly make it great that I've somehow missed? What other questions should I be asking right now in trying to make this decision?


My dad went to UW and it was my dream med school for the longest time. But after my interview days at each school, I think my heart wants Pitt. I hate to say it, but UW simply failed to live up to what I had built it up to be in my mind over these past few years and I was simply not impressed. That could of course be part of the problem. Pitt on the other hand kind of blew me away unexpectedly. Unfortunately I am not able to attend either second look weekend. But here are my thoughts/reasonings about each school, your input would be much appreciated

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[Syndicate]

If you don't want to go into academic medicine or faculty at a big teaching hospital (aka if you just want to be a doctor and earn $), don't factor rankings into your decision at all. Both schools won't close any doors for you. If it were me, I'd choose UW because it's cheaper

 

[solitarius]

The MD program at UW seems strongly geared towards primary care than research. Maybe it's the MD/PhDs and faculty that are doing the substantive research.

 

[Niemi]

I interviewed & was accepted UW. Declined because of high cost OOR but mostly for similar reasons to OP. My interview day was a 100% total let down. I was so excited to interview as OOR, but by the time I left I could care less about the school. I got a bad vibe from both the students and admin, interview day was poorly organized & just down right boring. I had already been on four other interviews at good but slightly "lower ranked" schools and every one of them beat UW on almost all measures that I care about. All I can say is that every school has it's own vibe so go where you fit best. I'm just glad I had lots of options and didn't have to go there.

 

[kanzeon]

Pretty much nobody likes the interview day at the UW. I've only heard negative things about it because it's purposely meant to stress you out or something stupid like that. But, don't be fooled, the UW med school is definitely a phenomenal school. It's so highly ranked in research because the UW is a research powerhouse--it gets the 2nd most federal research dollars per year out of any university (I was a tour guide for UW during undergrad). And it has so many research centers/affiliations--you will definitely have endless opportunities at the UW to get to work with experts in the field. It's a top ranked program in primary care because of how many afflictions and opportunities you have to practice in a variety of communities (around all 5 states that it serves). Yes, the Step 1 score is low but that is mainly due to the fact that the UW accepts students with lower stats than top 10 schools--firstly because it's a state school so it will favor it's own students and secondly because it tends to choose student with experience over grades (I think the average age of the class is like 26-7).

 

[Patros]

Why is UW so highly ranked anyway? Simply because it serves as the in-state school for 5 states so naturally it has to be good? Or is its research ranking in particular seriously inflated simply because it is affiliated with research powerhouses like Fred Hutch, which is great for Seattle but probably has little to no bearing on my experience as a med student? Or are there aspects of UW that truly make it great that I've somehow missed? What other questions should I be asking right now in trying to make this decision?

UWash is ranked so highly because it is a research juggernaut. In 2013 it pulled in over $450M NIH funding, which is more than every other medical school in the nation besides for Harvard-MGH, Hopkins, and UCSF. If you add Fred Hutch's $200M, it's beat only by Harvard. They have a lot of resources for the prospective biomedical researcher, and their MSTP is one of the most competitive in the US. I don't know if what they told you on "limited funds" is true, because they get tons of research money.

USNWR primary care rankings are pretty bogus, so I wouldn't lose too much sleep over that.

That being said, UPitt is one of the most famous schools in the country, and being 17th vs 10th on some magazine's ranking is not significant. It's also a research powerhouse (over $390M in 2013) and I am sure their clinical facilities are top notch. And I don't think 60-70k over 4 years is a huge amount, but that's up to you to decide. In terms of resources, I don't think you will be at an disadvantage at either. So your choice should come from a few key questions:
- Where do you prefer, Seattle or Pittsburgh? Will you be alright living by yourself in a distant city?
- Where do you want to match for residency? East coast or west?
-Where do you feel more comfortable? I think you made it clear that Pittsburgh would be the answer here.

 

[mmmcdowe]

UWashington has more research dollars, that's really the only reason. Pitt students are very respected on the trail and I would definitely go to Pitt since you got a better vibe.

 

[penguinism]

I think "fit" is important, because you want to be happy wherever you end up. For full disclosure I am a Pitt student, but I came to Pitt because I got a great vibe from the school and thought it had many more opportunities than some of my other choices. Pittsburgh is also cheaper than most other NE cities, but I'm not sure what the cost of living is in Seattle for comparison.

I think that the ranking is probably negligible. Both schools will get you where you want to go, provided that you have the motivation to do well. Cost is obviously a factor, so figure out if it's worth it to you to spend more to attend a school that you liked better. I'm happy to answer any questions you have about Pitt in the meantime.

 

[EMTwolv]

Rikan, I had a similar dilemma and I shared some of your concerns. I agree that the school's large instate make-up likely sets its student body apart from other top tier schools. That probably explains your experience with other students on interview day(it definitely did for me, as I was the only OOR student at my interview day.) I came away with some of the same doubts, and if I was choosing between Pitt and UW, I would really be laboring over that decision too. Ultimately, I decided on UW over another top 30 school that had a much more impressive interview day. I think the OOR student body at UW will likely be more like what you might find at other top 10 schools, as getting into UW OOR is even harder to do than getting into most other schools in that tier.

In terms of opportunity, I do think your doing a disservice to the school by doubting it's prestige. Though I wouldn't make a big deal out the rank difference between it and Pitt, this isn't UW's first foray into the top 10. Historically, it is almost always in the top 10, and has typically hovered around Duke, Columbia, and other research juggernauts. The opportunities are definitely there, and I think the unique make-up of the student body for a top tier school will make it relatively easier to stand out and make the most of them.

Another metric worth looking at is the USWR's "residency director assessment" and "peer assessment score," which in my opinion are the best measure of the impact of a school's prestige factor.
Pitt's are both 4.1, while UW's are 4.3/5 and 4.4/5, respectively.

The bottom line is that these are both top tier med schools. Professionally, you've made it to the top with either one and you will have the opportunities you need to get into the top residencies with either. So I think personal factors should heavily influence your final decision. I've heard amazing things about living in Seattle. Good luck with your decision!

 

[Sakuya]

Pitt's are both 4.1, while UW's are 4.3/5 and 4.4/5, respectively.

OP-- I am facing a similar decision as you of price/rank versus "fit" and I wish you the best of luck!

EMTwolv, I was wondering if you might know the scores for Mount Sinai?

 

[EMTwolv]

Mount Sinai:
Peer Assessment: 3.8
Residency director assessment: 3.9

 

[metview]

Residency director ratings don't really mean much because it polls such a small percentage or directors. Also, a school like UW has a high director rating but their matchlist does not represent it.

 

[EMTwolv]

UW has an excellent match list, with plenty of students placing in top residencies on the west coast. The match list is a reflection of the student body, which as has already been discussed is unique in that it is comprised of 90% instate(from the 5-state region).

 

[Davida]

Keep in mind that the 65-70K principle becomes ~150K when you start paying it off. When I calculated out the difference in loan repayment comparing schools with an 80,000 difference in price, it worked out to be a 2,000 a month difference over ten years. That's 24,000 a year (240,000 more) in loan repayments.

So for you - recognizing that it's more like a 200,000 price difference over your lifetime for two schools that will provide very similar opportunities - is it still worth it?

(to be fair, this is coming from a probable future UW student)

 

[BABSstudent]

I want to say, before you read this, that I am not angry or upset. I am honestly just writing this from a neutral perspective. After reading it, I realize it could be taken many ways. Keep the neutral tone in your head as you read it and it will be fine.

I don't think you want to look at the match list in too much detail for UW because we are a school geared towards primary care. The school picks people that want to go primary care from our applicants. These people want to go into primary care and know that the required board scores are lower so we do not get high scores (because we don't really need them). Then we don't have many people that apply for residencies in super competitive fields because we don't want to go into those specialties. So we are not really going to have tons of people matching derm or ortho residencies because the students just are not applying for those spots. I mean, if you are ranked number 1 in primary care, don't be shocked because people are going into primary care from that school. It's selection bias to the extreme! You can't honestly compare us to other schools that are ranked high because we don't have many similarities past the being highly ranked.

Residency director ratings don't really mean much because it polls such a small percentage or directors. Also, a school like UW has a high director rating but their matchlist does not represent it.

I believe that addresses your message about our match list.

But don't let that discourage you because there are also people that did match into other specialties and people that have interests outside of primary care. I am currently leaning towards critical care medicine, but that means I will still match into a primary care specialty because CC is a fellowship after a primary care residency (internal medicine). So am I going to be shooting for a 270 on step one? Nope. I just need to be average so I will shoot for average. I also have a bunch of friends that are wanting to do things outside of primary care and they are pursuing that now. They need higher board scores and so they are going for that 250+. The school also has hired a person with a PhD in education that is entirely focused on improving our board scores for those that ask for help. We also have free tutoring, they buy us qbank and we got a killer deal on firecracker (think 50% off). The resources are there if you want to do well on step 1, it's just that our students don't feel compelled to score high when we want to go into primary care. That just would take more time away from doing fun activities.

I will also say that our match rate last year was 100% for people applying straight out of medical school that took 4 years. That's impressive because we have 200+ medical students and they all matched. The people that didn't match, which there were 3 of them, all took more than 6 years to do medical school and did not take breaks for things like having kids, doing research, or medical issues. These were all students that had poor excuses for taking a year off, multiple times, and then tried to match into competitive specialties despite the school recommending they do not.

As for research funding for the students, you just have to ask people to do research with them and if they have any money to pay you for your work. The summer research funding is harder to get if you go through the school and their program they have set up, but a lot of my friends have gotten the funding outside of that program. It's actually surprisingly easy to get a funded position. I literally just emailed one of my MD professors and they asked their fellow attendings. I was offered a paid research position outside of the program the school has but I turned it down because I wanted to go on a trip this summer. Or you could go the alternative pathway, and do RU/OP and you are guaranteed a grand and free housing for 4 weeks of work in a clinic that matches what you ask for. I picked a Spanish speaking clinic close to Seattle and am going to do a research project there.

Now for the facilities: The facilities here are not the greatest, but that's only for the first two years. Plus, you can choose Spokane as your site and then get a brand new medical school. You can even do your second year there and get the brand new facilities for both of the school years. Then you go to the clinics, and this is where UW is one of the best. Most schools have 1 or 2 hospitals for you to do your clinical stuff at. We have 300. That's where the benefits come from and how we are ranked so highly by residency directors. You're right that the number of directors that respond to the survey is low, so take the results with a grain of salt but it still helps that we are also ranked consistently high in that along with our rank (see bottom of post for image of our rank associated with residency director's score). We are great at clinical skills because we go to hospitals around the 5 state region and work hand and hand with those physicians. We don't have residents to compete with at most of those sites. It is just a medical student and the physician team and they treat you like a resident after you show that you are competent enough. That's a huge perk coming from UW. That, along with our rank, helps the students out when they apply for competitive residencies.

And the apathetic thing about the students is because we are west coasters living in Seattle. That's kind of a PNW thing. You were also probably shocked that we had sandals, shorts and a tshirt in the middle of winter (I joke). I do the interview lunches and my goal when I go there is to take away the interviewers stress. I joke around, try to talk about different things, but I will never lie to an applicant when they ask about something. If you ask me what the worst thing about going to this school is, I will tell you. Personally, I think it is the facilities. But I don't spend much time at school because I do the recorded lectures thing where I watch lectures at double speed. I feel like this is what medical students at most schools do because it is more efficient. It's up to you though. If you think a new building will make you a better or smarter doctor, then go to a school that has a new building. I don't think the prettiness of a building or the brightness of lights is going to alter my ability to succeed as a future physician. Don't expect that building to be demolished and rebuild any time soon. It is the largest building owned by a university in the world. That would be a very expensive undertaking just to beautify the building. The hospital part is the area that gets remodeled and it is amazing on the inside and out. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_G._Magnuson_Health_Sciences_Building

But honestly it sounds like you want to ignore all these aspects. I think you already have Pitt set as the school you want to go to. So go to it! Have fun there. You will end up being a doctor at both places.

Here's the image I said I would post. You can see that Pitt is still highly ranked in the residency director score along with the overall rankings of medical schools so you won't be disappointed if you end up going to school there.

 

[peachfacekilla]

Long-time lurker... Was curious how your decision-making is going. I am in a similar situation- after forever of UW being my dream school (and even with the appeal of WA resident tuition), I have fallen out of love with it. Pretty certain I will be going with another top 30 school at which I felt so much more at home and valued, even just on interview day. I also take all the rankings with a huge grain of salt, for reasons stated above.

Pitt seems like an amazing school, FWIW. I applied but didn't get an interview.

 

[Jince791]

Long-time lurker... Was curious how your decision-making is going. I am in a similar situation- after forever of UW being my dream school (and even with the appeal of WA resident tuition), I have fallen out of love with it. Pretty certain I will be going with another top 30 school at which I felt so much more at home and valued, even just on interview day. I also take all the rankings with a huge grain of salt, for reasons stated above.

Pitt seems like an amazing school, FWIW. I applied but didn't get an interview.

I'm also interested to know how your guys' decision-making is going. UW was always my dream school but there was a bit of falling out of love for the same reasons you mentioned, Peachfacekilla. Feel free to PM me if you guys prefer!

 

[RikaN]

@peachfacekilla and @Jince791 , which school did you end up picking?

I just withdrew from UW! Ahh hopefully it will prove to have been the right choice for me.

Thank you ALL tremendously for your valuable insights and feedback on this thread!