Why not benzo + stimulant for patients?

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darkhope

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Hello,

So I remember being taught using benzo for treating anxiety is bad. However, I have been following a family physician, and he/she has been prescribing benzo pretty liberally for treating anxiety, and it works. Many of his/her patients also have adhd, so they get benzo for anxiety and stimulants for adhd. And they are more functional now than they were before being on this regimen. I understand benzo have terrible side effects and patients can become dependent, etc. But many of his/her elderly patients are on benzo too, and they have become way more functional and it helped with the anxiety. The majority of these patients remain on a stable regimen and don't ask for more. Is there any good literature out there that says we shouldn't use benzo to treat anxiety besides its side effect profile and addictive/dependent potential (which I've briefly looked at, and it seems pretty weak in the general population)? Should we be more liberal in using stimulants and benzo to treat patients, if not, what's the evidence that we shouldn't besides word of mouth?

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Hello,

So I remember being taught using benzo for treating anxiety is bad. However, I have been following a family physician, and he/she has been prescribing benzo pretty liberally for treating anxiety, and it works. Many of his/her patients also have adhd, so they get benzo for anxiety and stimulants for adhd. And they are more functional now than they were before being on this regimen. I understand benzo have terrible side effects and patients can become dependent, etc. But many of his/her elderly patients are on benzo too, and they have become way more functional and it helped with the anxiety. Is there any good literature out there that says we shouldn't use benzo to treat anxiety besides its side effect profile and addictive/dependent potential (which I've briefly looked at, and it seems pretty weak in the general population)? Should we be more liberal in using stimulants and benzo to treat patients, if not, what's the evidence that we shouldn't besides word of mouth?

It's not that you can become dependent, you will become physiologically dependent. It is invariable. The GABA receptor downregulation occurs within several weeks and glutamate activity increases. Besides dependence, there are well-documented adverse effects on cognition, memory, mental health, and an all-cause increased mortality risk. Withdrawal includes autonomic hyper-excitability via glutamate hyper-excitability and the GABA-A receptors taking longer to regulate themselves than the drug does to leave the body.

I am not arguing that they don't work. They do work very well. But not for long. Eventually you have to continue taking them to stay the same, then you will develop tolerance withdrawal (withdrawal symptoms at the same dose) or will increase the dose to maintain the same effect. I believe there are judicious uses that are wise, but I haven't seen them used wisely by doctors. By virtue of the fact that short-acting benzodiazepines are the most prescribed, I think it's clear to see that they are not being wisely or judiciously used.

I know it's Wikipedia, but it is well referenced:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_long-term_benzodiazepine_use
 
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Based on what? Less self-reported symptoms? Now able to hold a job? Relationships are better?

In what areas are they more functional?
I don't want to answer for OP and I'm sure this is obvious to you, but I would expect there to be improved functionality—initially. And then I would expect it to decline, slowly and insidiously, in such a way that the person is probably diagnosed with five varying maladies from various body systems before realizing the problem is the benzodiazepines—if ever. To look at functioning with benzodiazepines, you need to take a very long view. In the slight chance the patient stays with the original prescriber, some other malady such as depression, increased anxiety, somatoform disorder, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, etc., will probably be ascribed to the patient rahter than the effects of long-term benzodiazepine use. But most often providers move or the patients do, and the original prescriber will never see anything but those initial positive effects.
 
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Hello,

So I remember being taught using benzo for treating anxiety is bad. However, I have been following a family physician, and he/she has been prescribing benzo pretty liberally for treating anxiety, and it works. Many of his/her patients also have adhd, so they get benzo for anxiety and stimulants for adhd. And they are more functional now than they were before being on this regimen. I understand benzo have terrible side effects and patients can become dependent, etc. But many of his/her elderly patients are on benzo too, and they have become way more functional and it helped with the anxiety. The majority of these patients remain on a stable regimen and don't ask for more. Is there any good literature out there that says we shouldn't use benzo to treat anxiety besides its side effect profile and addictive/dependent potential (which I've briefly looked at, and it seems pretty weak in the general population)? Should we be more liberal in using stimulants and benzo to treat patients, if not, what's the evidence that we shouldn't besides word of mouth?

I think you're asking a good question and I don't think you'll get a solid answer, although I'm curious what people will say. For the last 4 months I've been covering for a psychiatrist who is 80 years old and out on medical leave, but expects to return. This is in a remote area, where there are no other psychiatrists for about 150 miles. Many of his patients are on stimulant-benzo combos that I would never have started myself. I feel like I'm in a bind. I know I should change these regimens, based on my training and experience, and also the fact that there is a lot of adderall abuse in the area. Then again if I do change them, I might destabilize or at least severely irritate someone. The 80 year old psychiatrist once told me that because he trained so long ago, he never was very impressed with SSRIs. He trusts benzos, and apparently stimulants. I can't fault him there, as much as I dislike them! The results are predictable!

I know I could dig up articles on this topic, but why bother? Is there really an article out there saying that patients report fewer symptoms when taken off a benzo-stimulent combo and placed on Prozac? And if there is, so what? If the patient goes south, the argument that I "read it in the literature" won't save me. We're supposed to follow the standard of care, and my understanding is that the standard of care is whatever is done locally. Ok, so then what if there is only one local psychiatrist, with a penchant for benzos and stimulants?
 
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Based on what? Less self-reported symptoms? Now able to hold a job? Relationships are better?

In what areas are they more functional?

Yes, according to the provider, the patients have improved in less self-reported symptoms, able to hold job/become more functional in terms of daily living, better relationships, etc. Surprisingly at least according to the provider, in majority of the cases, patients tolerate the initial regimen and stay with the same dose/frequency, and the provider has been seeing these patients for decades.

I don't know much about this topic. But my understanding is that not everyone becomes physiologically dependent to drugs including benzo/opiates/etc, please correct me if I'm wrong, but majority of people do not become physiologically dependent. And the adverse effects of benzo, I haven't dug through the studies, but in the context of untreated anxiety (ssri just don't work for them) vs treated anxiety with benzo, I wonder what the outcomes are.
 
Why not prescribe beer throughout the day instead? Don't need a pharmacy and does the same thing. Make you more cool if you can hang out drinking coors light all day.
 
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I know I could dig up articles on this topic, but why bother? Is there really an article out there saying that patients report fewer symptoms when taken off a benzo-stimulent combo and placed on Prozac? And if there is, so what? If the patient goes south, the argument that I "read it in the literature" won't save me. We're supposed to follow the standard of care, and my understanding is that the standard of care is whatever is done locally. Ok, so then what if there is only one local psychiatrist, with a penchant for benzos and stimulants?
So your argument is why bother reading medical research because if you follow medically accepted standard-of-care and someone gets worse, research won't help?

That logic is flawed. Sure we all work on the apprenticeship model, but saying that practicing psychopharm like they did 50 years ago (which is what you're basically doing) is just fine isn't acceptable.
 
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Hello,

So I remember being taught using benzo for treating anxiety is bad. However, I have been following a family physician, and he/she has been prescribing benzo pretty liberally for treating anxiety, and it works.

No. It doesn't. The proper way to think about it is it "reduces" the emotional experience of anxiety for (insert timeline of drug effects here).

Most anxiety disorders have well defined explanatory models. One would have to apply a treatment that is consistent with the explanatory model for the disorder in order for actually treat the problem.

Also consider the following:
PRN meds and even most therapy techniques reinforce safety behaviors. You're beating back extinction rather than facilitating it.

Re: that person's treatment approach to those with supposed AD/HD and anxiety: being on uppers and downers sounds like a terrible idea for multitude of reasons. I am not in medicine, so I would hope you would be able to explain why this might be even better than I can.
 
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Benzodiazepines reduce anxiety and slow cognition which theoretically should worsen attention. Stimulants improve attention and a known side effect is anxiety.

Once you begin the combo, you may be similar to a dog chasing his tail. There is no end in site as increasing one dose worsens the other.

I believe that there are always exceptions though.
 
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Benzodiazepines reduce anxiety and slow cognition which theoretically should worsen attention. Stimulants improve attention and a known side effect is anxiety.

Once you begin the combo, you may be similar to a dog chasing his tail. There is no end in site as increasing one dose worsens the other.

I believe that there are always exceptions though.

Yup, I inherited a patient a few months back on high dosages of both. He's in his 50s and developing cognitive issues. Not good. I was cynically relieved when he decided he would rather stay with his private psychiatrists when I told him I'd likely be taking him off both agents.

Contrary to what you might think, the fact that your patient "feels better" does not mean that you're doing a good job managing their mental health, regardless of what specialty you're in.
 
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There is a natural reaction to say "upper counteracts downer", but honestly they are pharmacologically distinct mechanisms, so there is no reason both can't be helpful in the same patient.

None of this is to say that the single patient effectively treated with both over the long haul without complications is a very common patient.

As said, you have to be really careful with these substances to have objective measures of treatment goals up front and refer to that. All of us have had a ton of patients discontinue SSRIs because they thought it wasn't doing anything and didn't like the idea of maybe being dependent on the substance, yet if you were to follow depression/anxiety scales, you would show objective benefit in many of these patients. Couple that with the benzo/stimulant patients who swear that its the only thing that works for them and tell you that you have no right to stop "my medicine". Very often, if you are collecting the data, they will have no benefit over the long term. It's just the nature of the substance. People get married to their memory of relief tied to the reward pathway, and they will still be married to that relief long after they have stopped receiving relief. This does not indicate addiction by itself, but it is the mediator of risk for addiction.
 
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"You have to give me xanax, it's the only thing that works."

This should be a flag for you not only that it does NOT work, but that self-report doesn't align with functional improvement in cases like this.

So I challenge the notion that "it works." Based on what?
 
Okay most of the patients are not on benzo plus stimulants (they are the minority), but are usually on some sort of benzo+opiods...which the patients seem like they are tolerating fine. I hear the mechanism and the side effect profile, etc. what you guys are saying makes sense but idk these patients look functional to me and the attending says he/she has been managing them fine for several decades with a stable constant regimen bc no one seems to respd to SSRI for anxiety. I was just hoping there is a landmark rct or something for justifying what we do besides what we know of the physiology, case reports, and side effect profiles. Thanks though for all the feedback
 
but are usually on some sort of benzo+opiods...which the patients seem like they are tolerating fine.

There is active push in the VA to taper individuals on this combo.

Just because something "works," does not mean it is the best, or even an appropriate, intervention. If you have shoulder pain, and I kick you in the nuts as hard as I can (ya know...like in a game of roshambo), your shoulder aint gonna hurt for a while. Or, at least you wouldn't notice. But, we don't advise such a thing, right?

Regarding anxiety disorders, again, this method of treatment is contrary to behavioral science explanatory models. The goal is extinction, not maintenance of the problem with a variable (PRN) schedule of reinforcement of the flawed cognition/belief. PRN benzo popping is essentially escape conditioning.
 
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Let's just bring desoxyn back into standard use. I feel like I really missed out on an opportunity to help people by never having a chance to utilize it.
 
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Or add soma and you get the holy trinity, sad but not uncommon in the south


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Let's just bring desoxyn back into standard use. I feel like I really missed out on an opportunity to help people by never having a chance to utilize it.
I feel ya.

But to the original post... this family doc's experience with it working sounds quite anecdotal, and a lot of the more recent publications/thoughts are anti-benzo. Then again, there is a sentiment, from some academics, that benzos do work and are being vilified by the psychiatric community currently. I personally try to avoid prescribing them whenever possible, but for all the evidence based medicine aficionados: are there any studies to say the combo does or doesn't work??
 
BTW, most likely the reason this FM doc didn't get great response from SSRIs is he doesn't know how to dose it. He probably stuck to like 20mg for prozac.
 
BTW, most likely the reason this FM doc didn't get great response from SSRIs is he doesn't know how to dose it. He probably stuck to like 20mg for prozac.

Certainly that is a major issue among GPs. They will start and titrate to a dose that they feel comfortable with, often far below max label dose and in some cases there may be efficacy above that. All that said, there is little evidence that escalating dose is the right thing to do. Seems to be an on-off point in efficacy for SSRIs. Pooled data shows some benefit in escalating dose, but I really wonder if that's not purely based on something like P450 variation requiring some to have higher doses.

I suspect the problem, though, is generally in measurement. If you're going by what the patient reports works, it's more likely to be benzos, but if you measure it then you find something different altogether.
 
Okay most of the patients are not on benzo plus stimulants (they are the minority), but are usually on some sort of benzo+opiods...which the patients seem like they are tolerating fine. I hear the mechanism and the side effect profile, etc. what you guys are saying makes sense but idk these patients look functional to me and the attending says he/she has been managing them fine for several decades with a stable constant regimen bc no one seems to respd to SSRI for anxiety. I was just hoping there is a landmark rct or something for justifying what we do besides what we know of the physiology, case reports, and side effect profiles. Thanks though for all the feedback
At this point I think you're trolling. The simple fact that a lay person can Google this and come up with multiple articles in reference to chronic Opiod treatment alone, let alone mixed with another respiratory depressor, makes me not able to take this seriously.

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At this point I think you're trolling. The simple fact that a lay person can Google this and come up with multiple articles in reference to chronic Opiod treatment alone, let alone mixed with another respiratory depressor, makes me not able to take this seriously.

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Sorry i did not mean to give you the impression that i am trolling. I understand they are both respiratory depressants with bad side effects and addictive potential. Anyhow I see that many of his/her patients are on a stable chronic regimen of benzo and opiods, and they at least are doing well in terms of diabetes, bp, lipid, and weight control. And according to the patients and their family members they say it's improved them getting along. Not sure about the SSRI regimen the family doc tried...but honestly I don't think he/she tried too hard on it until he/she switched to benzo.

Anyhow im going into psych, and I personally remember laughing with the psych residents and attendings about family docs doing chronic benzo + opiods for their patients. In retrospect, I regret it bc I see these patients are doing way better than I originally thought. And there doesn't appear to be any landmark rct study that would make this practice completely absurd. But maybe residency training will make me feel differently
 
One perhaps important framing to this, and perhaps there is research that I'm unaware of... but given that a patient already has a physiological dependence on benzos (likely secondary to rx by a physician as described here) is there A) a proven benefit to tapering off B) an evidence based medication/therapy shown to be effective *specifically* in this population.

There's often a lot of vilifying of patients who were treated with benzos and then say that it's "all that works." Welp, if we (collectively) got them into this mess, we do have a duty to attempt real evidence based approaches to helping them.

Finally, the benzos act ubiquitously to modulate GABAergic neurotransmission. Methylphenidate acts at NE and DA uptake. These are not opposites. They are not "uppers" and "downers," that's street slang. They may lead to acute physiological opposition at certain neurons, and may have opposition at certain side/effects but that doesn't mean that they overlap everywhere and can't have distinct benefits/harms in combination.
 
Sorry i did not mean to give you the impression that i am trolling. I understand they are both respiratory depressants with bad side effects and addictive potential. Anyhow I see that many of his/her patients are on a stable chronic regimen of benzo and opiods, and they at least are doing well in terms of diabetes, bp, lipid, and weight control. And according to the patients and their family members they say it's improved them getting along.

The obvious problem here is the tunnel vision of: "if they are doing ok medically" and their family says they are "doing fine," they must, in fact, be "fine." Psych thinks a bit differently.

Aside from the medication issue itself, I would hope someone interested in psych would appreciate how this, even if satisfying to the patient, is grossly inadequate treatment of the actual underlying psychiatric disorder/disturbance.
 
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Anyhow im going into psych, and I personally remember laughing with the psych residents and attendings about family docs doing chronic benzo + opiods for their patients. In retrospect, I regret it bc I see these patients are doing way better than I originally thought. And there doesn't appear to be any landmark rct study that would make this practice completely absurd. But maybe residency training will make me feel differently

Either you have a completely different patient population than anything I've seen in different settings, or do not have the benefit of a comprehensive, years long, EMR. The only time patients "look" like they are doing on their maintenance benzos, is when you ask. In nearly every case, if I review chart notes, there is no indication that they are improved after they are prescribed benzos. If anything, I've seen more ER visits due to this than anything. Additionally, while the research is in its infancy, there is more and more data coming out about increasing risk factors for dementia. I don't expect a landmark RCT for that though. Ethics and all.

Bottom line, tons of research suggesting how terrible it is, and a dearth of research showing the "benefits" of maintenance benzos for most things.
 
Additionally, while the research is in its infancy, there is more and more data coming out about increasing risk factors for dementia. I don't expect a landmark RCT for that though. Ethics and all.

As you say, you're not going to fund a 30-year RCT to find out due to the data on the harms of BZDs including potential for dementia risk. Of course, you wouldn't have gotten it funded if you didn't know that either, and you'd still have to wait 30 years to see the results, which would be hard to interpret due to a very high dropout rate.

Still, it's really hard to make this conclusion from the other kinds of things we can do. So many potential confounders, and dementia is a severely underdiagnosed condition. It's even possible that anxiety or insomnia might be related to the dementing pathology (as we know, amyloid starts accruing way before any measurable impairment) and thus explain the association. Of course, when you have your list of patients exposed or not exposed, you'd have to get them off the BZD for quite a while before you could be sure that any measured cognitive deficit wasn't attributed to the BZD itself.

The good thing is, I don't particularly care if they prove it or not (unless the risk is pretty high). There's data that suggests it's true, and so I can tell my patients who I don't want to give a BZD for other reasons, that this is a compelling argument why not. Surprisingly, there are some who really get afraid of that risk and it ends any further negotiation.
 
Still, it's really hard to make this conclusion from the other kinds of things we can do. So many potential confounders, and dementia is a severely underdiagnosed condition. It's even possible that anxiety or insomnia might be related to the dementing pathology (as we know, amyloid starts accruing way before any measurable impairment) and thus explain the association. Of course, when you have your list of patients exposed or not exposed, you'd have to get them off the BZD for quite a while before you could be sure that any measured cognitive deficit wasn't attributed to the BZD itself.

The good thing is, I don't particularly care if they prove it or not (unless the risk is pretty high). There's data that suggests it's true, and so I can tell my patients who I don't want to give a BZD for other reasons, that this is a compelling argument why not. Surprisingly, there are some who really get afraid of that risk and it ends any further negotiation.

Of course, you pretty much have to rely on retrospective designs and case control studies for this sort of thing, and it carries all of the issues with such designs. But, better than nothing. But, there are more and more studies looking at people withdrawn from BZD's for some time still showing impaired cognitive performance against those never on BZD meds. But really, it's besides the point in a lot of cases, just no great data that BZD's really do anything in terms of functional outcomes with people with anxiety, and in many cases just leads to worse functional and health outcomes.
 
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Sorry i did not mean to give you the impression that i am trolling. I understand they are both respiratory depressants with bad side effects and addictive potential. Anyhow I see that many of his/her patients are on a stable chronic regimen of benzo and opiods, and they at least are doing well in terms of diabetes, bp, lipid, and weight control. And according to the patients and their family members they say it's improved them getting along. Not sure about the SSRI regimen the family doc tried...but honestly I don't think he/she tried too hard on it until he/she switched to benzo.

Anyhow im going into psych, and I personally remember laughing with the psych residents and attendings about family docs doing chronic benzo + opiods for their patients. In retrospect, I regret it bc I see these patients are doing way better than I originally thought. And there doesn't appear to be any landmark rct study that would make this practice completely absurd. But maybe residency training will make me feel differently
Once you mentioned opiods long term it smelled very trollish. Sorry if that wasn't the case.

Of course you're not going to see a bunch of people decompensating on some of these absurd regimens, if this happens your amazing FP most likely tells them to go to the ED or makes a psych referral (or pain in the case of opiates).


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Anyhow im going into psych, and I personally remember laughing with the psych residents and attendings about family docs doing chronic benzo + opiods for their patients. In retrospect, I regret it bc I see these patients are doing way better than I originally thought. And there doesn't appear to be any landmark rct study that would make this practice completely absurd. But maybe residency training will make me feel differently
You do not seem to understand the basic principles of epidemiology of evidence-based practice. You do not need an RCT to tell you that combined benzos and opioids are bad when people are dropping dead on a daily basis from this combination. RCTs are done where there is theoretical equipoise between two options such that significant uncertainty exists. It would be completely unethical to do an RCT to see whether one option was more harmful than another, and it would be unethical to expose patients to harm when it is clear that the combination is harmful.

Opioids are not an effective treatment for chronic non-cancer pain. the evidence is pretty overwhelming that long-term opioids in chronic pain patients do more harm than good. Apart from the risks of dependence and addiction are, hyperalgesia, allodynia, subtle hypoxic-brain injury which can impair frontal lobe functioning, central sleep apnea, gonadal failure in men, impaired coordination and increased all-cause mortality risk. the evidence is quite clear that in general chronic opioids for chronic non-cancer pain do not improve functioning. As for benzodiazepines, I believe they amongst are the most effective drugs in the psychiatrists pharmacopoeia when used appropriately and judiciously. For example they can minimize neuroleptic burden in the treatment of mania, have remarkable effects in the treatment of catatonia of any cause, and can provide rapid relief in severe anxiety states. However again, the evidence is clear that they do not usually work after a month or so. In the original Xanax studies funded by Upjohn, it was clear that after 8 weeks, patients with panic disorder were were off in the alprazolam group than with placebo. There is little in the way of SSRI to benzo comparisons, most of the studies compare TCAs or MAOIs to benzos and benzos do quite favorably in these short trials. The wide use of SSRIs instead of benzos for neurotic disorders was entirely driven by the pharmaceutical industry, as it was many years after it was known that benzos had significant problems, that physicians starting turning to SSRIs instead. They can sometimes be effective, but personally, they have been overhyped, are often not effective in the treatment of anxiety states, and once someone has had a taste of Xanax it is very hard to sell something that can take weeks or months to show much in the way of effect. psychotherapeutic treatments like CBT and relaxation training are still the first line and most effective treatment for anxiety states.

There are of course exceptions in clinical practice, such that sometimes it may be appropriate to use benzos and opiates together but this would be exceedingly rare. However this is not just a matter for tort law if it goes horribly wrong, physicians can (and will) often face criminal prosecution for 2nd degree murder if your patients turn up dead after you've prescribed benzos and opioids for them. You may even find yourself liable for both lawsuit or criminal prosecution if death results from the patient diverting the prescription and you did not take steps that any reasonably prudent physician would in monitoring for diversion.

From what I've seen docs who liberally prescribe benzos, opiates, and stims are often desperate for the approval of others, want to be liked, avoid confrontation and have a hard time saying no. It is much easier to acquiesce to patient demand, and find it encouraging when patients initially do better, and to hear what a great doctor you are, or how you've been the only one to help your patients. That can be very gratifying. But we are not here to be gratified by our patients or to pander to their desire to be off their faces and obliterate any feeling that they have. One of the reasons why satisfaction ratings and other market-based initiatives in healthcare are flawed is because patients are satisfied more with bad care than they are with good care. A good physician is able to say "no". A great physician is able to do so in a way where the patient understands that their doctor cares about their wellbeing.
 
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The rationale that patient satisfaction means the patient is doing well could also be extended to cocaine. After all, cocaine can be prescribed as a schedule II drug, same as the psychostimulants. There are no longitudinal randomized controlled trials demonstrating negative effects of blow that I am aware of. In fact, Freud extolled the virtues of cocaine. Do you see where this leads? It is incumbent on the physician to recommend treatments that promote wellness. More often than not, those recommended therapies lead to substantial discomfort. I recall an interesting article on "The Cost of Satisfaction."

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1108766
 
Thanks for all these comments, they were very helpful. Just to clarify somethings: these patients are on a relatively low dose of benzo/opioids, none of them at least my attending has claimed had decompensated to respiratory arrest. The practice also serves a very specific population (basically takes private insurance the majority - I agree maybe one reason why the physician is eager to please). Very low prevalence of substance abuse also from what I read on the chart and see during my brief time here. And the practice has an EMR that dates back almost a decade - somatic measures look good. I didn't really dig through the charts for the individuals patients. I've also only been here for a few weeks, but I haven't seen any of the patients decompensate to the ED nor has he/she really made any psych referrals except for treatment resistant depression.

And sometimes I guess the thought from a family doc perspective would be (purely med student speculation):
Scenario A: Give stable regimen of low dose benzo => patient feels like it helped them => allows opportunity for better management of somatic diseases eg: bp, diabetes, weight
Scenario B: Patient fails SSRI trial (I do believe he/she could try harder on giving the patients a fair trial on these) => you recommend CBT => patient refuses to commit to that plus so costly too; and patient does not get benzo => patient gets pissed off and feels that their "anxiety" is not controlled => poor relationship with the patient => poor diabetes, bp, weight, etc. control

I'm sure scenario A and B are not either or scenarios but in both I believe the physician cares about the patient's well being. What is treatment that promotes wellness - should our perspective purely be of psychological wellness or is wellness more broadly defined to somatic wellness too. For example, I guess what's the chances that that specific patient is going to develop dementia, delirium, etc. from chronic benzo use or die instead from having uncontrolled diabetes, hypertension, obesity, etc.
 
So your argument is why bother reading medical research because if you follow medically accepted standard-of-care and someone gets worse, research won't help?

That logic is flawed. Sure we all work on the apprenticeship model, but saying that practicing psychopharm like they did 50 years ago (which is what you're basically doing) is just fine isn't acceptable.

Did you even read my post? Apparently not. These aren't my patients. I'm seeing them once, maaaaybe twice. They're already on Xanax and Adderall. The paper adderall scripts are already written by the primary psychiatrist - in accordance with state law where I am. The clinic may pull these scripts if I tell them to - and if I do that to everyone, I won't have a job for many more days. The Xanax I can at most taper. But not really, since I won't be following them, and it will just be restarted when the regular psychiatrist comes back. I don't need literature to tell me the regimens are bad - I need literature to tell me what to do when covering temporarily for an incompetent or older physician in a remote, underserved area. Since you're so knowledgeable, maybe you can point me to a good article on that?

In any case, you're wrong about the logic. Research often doesn't help. If you think it does, then you should read this:

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2004/05/doctor-sued-uspstf-guidelines-prostate-cancer-screening.html
 
Did you even read my post? Apparently not. These aren't my patients. I'm seeing them once, maaaaybe twice. They're already on Xanax and Adderall. The paper adderall scripts are already written by the primary psychiatrist - in accordance with state law where I am. The clinic may pull these scripts if I tell them to - and if I do that to everyone, I won't have a job for many more days. The Xanax I can at most taper. But not really, since I won't be following them, and it will just be restarted when the regular psychiatrist comes back. I don't need literature to tell me the regimens are bad - I need literature to tell me what to do when covering temporarily for an incompetent or older physician in a remote, underserved area. Since you're so knowledgeable, maybe you can point me to a good article on that?

In any case, you're wrong about the logic. Research often doesn't help. If you think it does, then you should read this:

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2004/05/doctor-sued-uspstf-guidelines-prostate-cancer-screening.html
USPSTF isn't research. It's a board.

Splik's post answers enough. My critique was of your disregard for literature and standard of care. "I could dig up literature, but why bother... [paraphrasing] and if there's papers that go against this, so what?" -- THAT is the problem, not cross-covering someone else.
 
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USPSTF isn't research. It's a board.

Splik's post answers enough. My critique was of your disregard for literature and standard of care. "I could dig up literature, but why bother... [paraphrasing] and if there's papers that go against this, so what?" -- THAT is the problem, not cross-covering someone else.

I didn't say USPSTF was research. (And neither is SDN, btw.) My point was: the local standard of care is the only standard used in malpractice cases. That's what I was told at the last several AAPL conferences I attended. A jury (also made up of local people, generally local rubes) probably won't give two hoots what the "scientific literature" says. If the local standard of care sucks, and you practice something better, but the patient dies, you are in trouble and you'll need to explain to the jury why you deviated from the local standard of care. Just like if the local standard of care in cardiology is to put three stents in for some coronary artery blockage, but you put two in because "the evidence" says that's actually superior, and the patient dies, you've got some explaining to do.

If the local standard of care is xanax and adderall and nothing else, then what are you going to say? What "local" means is anyone's guess. If there's only 1 psychiatrist for a 200 mile radius, and that psychiatrist happens to be 80 and poorly trained, but has been there for 30 years, don't you think that psychiatrist has a bit more weight in determining the local standard of care than some recent residency grad with an anti-benzo anti-adderall attitude who's been there only a few months? What do you think a local jury will think? And this is a jury who's family members will be one or two degrees at most separated from the 80 year old psychiatrist. In a county of less than 30,000 people that's how it will be, of course.

I brought this up last year at a state meeting of psychiatrists, and even there, they acknowledged - I had a really good point and there was no answer.

By the way, I look up literature on all kinds of things. I respect the literature. It was absolutely obvious from my post earlier that I was talking about a specific situation.
 
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Your respect for literature was not indicated in your original post. I don't disagree that the SoC is based on what others are doing. But no one says you can't exceed the standard of care.
 
Your respect for literature was not indicated in your original post. I don't disagree that the SoC is based on what others are doing. But no one says you can't exceed the standard of care.

Of COURSE you can exceed the standard of care! Of course we all should!! Until the patient dies!!! What exactly then will you tell the jury? "Oh dear jury, I know the patient died, but the procedure was a great success! I followed the literature to a T, and I made a great point of ether stoping or tapering any medications that could be habit forming, even though, as it is documented in numerous past notes, the patient maintained that those addictive medications were the ones that were keeping him stable?"

Seriously do you realize that that is what you are advocating? I stated in my very first post that I was covering for someone else, an older doc with different practices, whose patients are stable. I have no idea where you got the idea that I was continuing these medications in unstable patients. If you doubt this, please reread my original post.

Also, my respect for the literature was not UN-implied. I shouldn't need to state it - especially not when my very point was that, when the literature and the standard of care are in conflict, it is the SOC that prevails, unfortunately. By maintaining that I levied some insult against the scientific literature, you are just being argumentative.
 
btw it is not quite the case that the standard of care is locally set. The standard of care is locally determined where no national standards exist. In psychiatry for the most part this is the case, because the APA for the most part refuse to set any national standards as this would upset their members (which is why their practice guidelines for the most have been largely useless). The standard of care is exceedingly low in psychiatry which is part of the issue.

This is why I am in this situation to begin with. The APA is negligent - they do nothing, offer no national standards on almost anything.

But say you were the only psychiatrist for a 100 miles and you treated a patient with bipolar I disorder with psychoanalytic psychotherapy, no medications, and never offered drug therapy, and that patient committed suicide in a mixed state during the course of treatment, you would not be able to stay "I am the standard of care" where clear national standards state that drug therapy is indicated and should be offered to patients with bipolar I disorder. Even if you were in a group practice with other psychoanalytically oriented psychiatrists and there were no other psychiatrists in the state and they would have all done the same thing, you would still be found derelict in your duty of care if you failed to offer pharmacotherapy for a patient with active bipolar I disorder.

I agree with you, except that, to be held accountable for this kind of malpractice, you need to be brought to court, where an expert witness needs to testify against you. And I believe the expert witness would have to be licensed in the state. We have a shortage of psychiatrists in this state as it is (hence my original post), and almost no forensic psychiatrists, certainly few that do malpractice work (at least that I know of), and definitely not enough to count on if a case like this actually arose. (I know because I actually do some of the forensic cases around here, due to said shortage.) So who exactly is going to go on the witness stand and testify to these supposed national standards? What if no one around here agrees with them? What if everyone is doing psychoanalytic therapy for bipolar I? I know this is an extreme example, but in this state, it's possible.

That said, it's not clear what kind of damages would result from prescribing stimulants and benzos together that would lead to civil action. It's not a great combo and may be pharmacologically antagonistic, but it is unlikely to do any more harm that prescribing either one alone. You could certainly be held negligent in a civil suit if the patient became addicted and you had failed to warn them about the risk of addiction, or failed to take reasonable measures to detect addiction (such as pill counts, UDS, obtaining collateral, obtaining prior medical records indicating history of substance use disorder, failing to question repeated requests for early refills, allowing repeated dose escalation without clarification etc)

What if the patient kills themselves after threatening me that "if you don't give me what I need, I can't promise I won't hurt myself?" I get this threat all the time, and in the back of mind is always the fact that actually, the local standard of care is to treat depression with adderall and xanax.
 
I agree with you, except that, to be held accountable for this kind of malpractice, you need to be brought to court, where an expert witness needs to testify against you. And I believe the expert witness would have to be licensed in the state. We have a shortage of psychiatrists in this state as it is (hence my original post), and almost no forensic psychiatrists, certainly few that do malpractice work (at least that I know of), and definitely not enough to count on if a case like this actually arose. (I know because I actually do some of the forensic cases around here, due to said shortage.) So who exactly is going to go on the witness stand and testify to these supposed national standards? What if no one around here agrees with them? What if everyone is doing psychoanalytic therapy for bipolar I? I know this is an extreme example, but in this state, it's possible.

well i gave the extreme example so i'll bite. if the case arose, there are clear national standards here (because the APA guidelines, any standard psychiatric textbook etc would state that medications should be offered in the treatment of bipolar I disorder whereas there is no evidence for psychoanalytic psychotherapy). Although technically expert witness work is regarded as the practice of medicine requiring state licensure, in reality it is rare for forensic psychiatrists to obtain licensure in that state. many of the leading forensic psychiatrists (including phil resnick) do not bother getting licensure in all the states and the courts do not typically care - state licensure is certainly not necessary to qualify as an expert witness.

What if the patient kills themselves after threatening me that "if you don't give me what I need, I can't promise I won't hurt myself?" I get this threat all the time, and in the back of mind is always the fact that actually, the local standard of care is to treat depression with adderall and xanax.
it depends. if the patient is coming to you and demanding to be started on xanax and adderall presumably you'd decline. if its the standard of care then they can find another psychiatrist. and if they can't - that's not your problem, you only have to provide them with referalls it doesnt matter if if those psychiatrists aren't taking new referrals. You cannot be held to ransom by patients in this way. And you don't have to provide any treatment you're not comfortable with.

An extreme example (which happens in real practice) would be a patient threatening suicide if you don't have sex with them. You cannot be held to ransom.

OTOH i think the situation you are in is quite different. if patients are coming to you on these drugs (especially if you are just covering) it is not your job to take them off them and it would be quite correct to continue the drugs while informing them that this may not be the best treatment and all the risks associated with such treatment. the occasional patient may request to be tapered off but if you have warned them of the risks and they choose to continue with this regimen and there is no evidence of abuse or diversion, then it would be reasonable to continue the drugs. In fact, I have learned the hard way not to make a personal crusade out of this kind of thing and sometimes the least harmful thing you can do is to continue the prescriptions.
 
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Of COURSE you can exceed the standard of care! Of course we all should!! Until the patient dies!!! What exactly then will you tell the jury? "Oh dear jury, I know the patient died, but the procedure was a great success! I followed the literature to a T, and I made a great point of ether stoping or tapering any medications that could be habit forming, even though, as it is documented in numerous past notes, the patient maintained that those addictive medications were the ones that were keeping him stable?"

Seriously do you realize that that is what you are advocating? I stated in my very first post that I was covering for someone else, an older doc with different practices, whose patients are stable. I have no idea where you got the idea that I was continuing these medications in unstable patients. If you doubt this, please reread my original post.

Also, my respect for the literature was not UN-implied. I shouldn't need to state it - especially not when my very point was that, when the literature and the standard of care are in conflict, it is the SOC that prevails, unfortunately. By maintaining that I levied some insult against the scientific literature, you are just being argumentative.

You're presuming facts not in evidence. I wasn't critiquing your choices in cross-covering, just your disregard for the literature in your original post. Yes you do need to state it if in several sentences you're stating it's meaningless for you.
 
well i gave the extreme example so i'll bite. if the case arose, there are clear national standards here (because the APA guidelines, any standard psychiatric textbook etc would state that medications should be offered in the treatment of bipolar I disorder whereas there is no evidence for psychoanalytic psychotherapy). Although technically expert witness work is regarded as the practice of medicine requiring state licensure, in reality it is rare for forensic psychiatrists to obtain licensure in that state. many of the leading forensic psychiatrists (including phil resnick) do not bother getting licensure in all the states and the courts do not typically care - state licensure is certainly not necessary to qualify as an expert witness.


it depends. if the patient is coming to you and demanding to be started on xanax and adderall presumably you'd decline. if its the standard of care then they can find another psychiatrist. and if they can't - that's not your problem, you only have to provide them with referalls it doesnt matter if if those psychiatrists aren't taking new referrals. You cannot be held to ransom by patients in this way. And you don't have to provide any treatment your not comfortable with.

An extreme example (which happens in real practice) would be a patient threatening suicide if you don't have sex with them. You cannot be held to ransom.

OTOH i think the situation you are in is quite different. if patients are coming to you on these drugs (especially if you are just covering) it is not your job to take them off them and it would be quite correct to continue the drugs while informing them that this may not be the best treatment and all the risks associated with such treatment. the occasional patient may request to be tapered off but if you have warned them of the risks and they choose to continue with this regimen and there is no evidence of abuse or diversion, then it would be reasonable to continue the drugs. In fact, I have learned the hard way not to make a personal crusade out of this kind of thing and sometimes the least harmful thing you can do is to continue the prescriptions.
Great point about not making it a personal crusade. Additionally, the patient is more likely to listen to the options we present if we don't threaten to take away the medicine they believe is working for them. Fits in with an MI approach. I have had patients who finally decide to make some of these changes after six months or so of treatment where I spend very little time telling them what they should or shouldn't take. It is always gratifying when they get to that next stage of change and say, "maybe I would be better off if I didn't drink, take benzos, smoke pot, etc". Of course, it might take another few months before they'll initiate the change. I can be patient and take the long view as long as they keep coming back. None of the insurers in this state have complained about it yet. Does make one wonder about the plethora of studies and how they must cherry pick/sample the participants to show 8 sessions of CBT as curing everything. Or is it just my luck, I get the exclusion criteria folk showing up in my office?
 
You're presuming facts not in evidence. I wasn't critiquing your choices in cross-covering, just your disregard for the literature in your original post. Yes you do need to state it if in several sentences you're stating it's meaningless for you.

Well, what I said was this:

I know I could dig up articles on this topic, but why bother? Is there really an article out there saying that patients report fewer symptoms when taken off a benzo-stimulent combo and placed on Prozac? And if there is, so what? If the patient goes south, the argument that I "read it in the literature" won't save me.


I'm not sure how you extrapolate from this quote, which clearly deals with the scenario where a patient is being taken off a benzo-stimulent combination - a situation that is somewhat rare, overall - that I have low regard for the entire oeuvre of psychiatric literature, but, if you did get that impression, than I regret that my words were so confusing and I will strive to be more clear in future posts.
 
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