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Why so few DO programs?

Discussion in 'Ophthalmology: Eye Physicians & Surgeons' started by FuturePharm21, Feb 12, 2012.

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  1. FuturePharm21

    FuturePharm21

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    I am starting osteopathic med school in July, but was wondering why there's so few osteopathic optho seats? I saw 13 programs with about 2-3 seats for a total of about 30 new openings compared to 458 for dozens of allopathic programs.
  2. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    Not to piss anyone off but American MDs get almost all the good specialist residencies. DOs, Carribean MDs, international MDs mostly get primary care specialties. Why is that? Because American MD schools are the hardest to get into and are the most established. My friend in opto school got into DO school but chose opto instead because he just loves eyes so much.
  3. FuturePharm21

    FuturePharm21

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    But ODs can't perform surgeries, or anything like that...so I prefer being a DO.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  4. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    :laugh: someone didn't do their research
  5. FuturePharm21

    FuturePharm21

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    Not to offend you, but ODs just do eye exams, "is this better or this better". Boring in my opinion, but a great career for those that like optometry.
  6. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    Where do you get your info from? Are you from America? You are referring to refraction which yes is a staple in our profession and we are optics experts but we do way more.

    Let me enlighten you:
    https://www.aoa.org/Images/oral.gif
    https://www.aoa.org/Images/glaucoma.gif
    https://www.aoa.org/Images/Controlled-Substance.gif
    https://www.aoa.org/Images/Injectables-12-2011.gif

    And also did you not notice my signature nor the top sticky thread in this Ophthalmology forum?

    Sorry about the de-railing of the thread.
  7. FuturePharm21

    FuturePharm21

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    whatever man, but I just said those things to annoy you as you seem to bash DO's by saying your first statement on how only MDs specialize, which is not true.

    Can someone answer my original question and get back to this topic's thread:

    I am starting osteopathic med school in July, but was wondering why there's so few osteopathic optho seats? I saw 13 programs with about 2-3 seats for a total of about 30 new openings compared to 458 for dozens of allopathic programs.
    __________________
  8. scornev02

    scornev02

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    You can always try to match into an allopathic program. It's hard but not impossible
  9. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    You are misquoting me. I stated "American MDs get almost all the good specialist residencies" which is completely factual and wasn't meant to bash anybody.
  10. The Doctor

    The Doctor EMH Mark I

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    According to Wikipedia, there are 134 MD granting institutions in the US and 26 DO granting institutions. 26 DO schools make up 16.25% of institutions. All else being equal we might then expect 16.25% of the 458 + approx 30 (DO) spots to be DO spots, or 79. If there are indeed 30 or so DO spots as you state, then it would appear the DO schools are a bit less than half as likely as an allopathic school to offer spots in an ophtho program. This does not seem unreasonable as DO schools frequently seem to have more of a primary care based mission, there are so many more allopathic schools numerically, and ophthalmology is a highly specialized surgical subspecialty.

    If you are still in undergrad now, your interests may change with respect to specialties as you progress through medical school and gain exposure to different areas and see how your grades and board scores turn out. If you are dead set on pursuing ophthalmology, you may be money and time ahead to apply to and attend an allopathic school instead.

    Check out these previous discussions:
    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=343649
    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=750285
    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-858455.html
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  11. Wedgebuster

    Wedgebuster

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    I am an MD in an MD ophtho residency. However, I work very close with the DO residency in town and have published a lot of papers with them...it is a great program. Your estimate seems a bit low, but I am not sure of the DO numbers. A few things go in your favor, you can apply to both MD and DO programs. I have a DO in my program and there is one at my med school program...it is not uncommon. so, in the end there are probably exactly proportional numbers between MD and DO

    The DO ophtho culture is smaller but very alive and very well. If you want some contacts PM me and I can get you some names
  12. RestoreSight

    RestoreSight

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    Its all about the focus of the institution. As mentioned previously osteopathic institutions focus more on primary care and less on elite specialization. With that said, I know a few allopathic ophtho residency programs with osteopathic physicians on staff. Your at a disadvantage, but its not impossible. Its good you look ahead. If you do well on your boards, publish a manuscript or two and get a few connections you give yourself a good chance of matching.
  13. confusedeye

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    2 new programs are opening and 2 closed this year and a 3rd may or may not keep their program open and another didn't take applications this year. There are a total of 10-15 per year not 30. I just looked this up on the ERAS and AOA opportunities site.
  14. confusedeye

    confusedeye

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    Does your school teach this as part of the curriculum seeing as you go to school in a state that has a very limited scope of practice for optoms?
  15. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    O yes, our pharmacology course is the same as the MD one. We practice injections on plastic arms, lasers and sutures on bovine eyes before clinicals. Everyone here also does an externship at a VA where the scope follows federal law and is much greater even in New York State so we can practice some of these procedures in action. I am planning on doing a residency in ocular disease in a opto liberal state to further my knowledge of more advanced procedures and I do not plan to practice in NYS unless new legislation passes before I graduate.

    We all have to pass the same national board exam, our equivalent of your USMLE or COMLEX which has 3 steps as well and contains injections/blood pressure readings etc.

    Btw just as a heads up know that many ODs are not into ocular disease like I am. Many just want to refract, detect a few diseases here and there and rx eye drops.
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  16. EyeGuy15

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    My advice as an ophtho resident. Do not listen to what an optom says about the world of ophthalmology. Plenty of resources out there. I have nothing against optoms but Shnurek is more focused on pushing his agenda than speaking the reality. If you want to practice in any city that is larger than a thousand people, optoms have minimal scope. He can ramble on about all of these "advances in scope", but as long as insurance will pay to cover the expenses to see an ophthalmologist for advanced eye pathology, no one one would choose to see an optometrist over an ophthalmologist. (unless of course they are severely uneducated about medicine in general). The education is NOT the same. Not even close. Optometry school is not the same as medical school + residency. An 8 year old can figure that out.

    Being a DO is tough and it is only going to get tougher because MD schools are increasing enrollment. It is possible to match in an MD field but your application has to be rock solid and you have to start making connections sooner rather than later.
  17. Visionary

    Visionary Medical Retinologist

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    Agree with the above. Allopathic and osteopathic philosophy and training truly differ. You simply won't find as much surgical specialization in the osteopathic tree. Of course, you can pursue allopathic residencies following osteopathic med school. It's just more difficult to match, as preference is given to allopathic candidates. That said, I know quite a few DOs who trained at allopathic residencies.
  18. Shnurek

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    Hah, good luck with that one. People (and the government) will realize they rather see an optom that can do the same job (where the scope of practice overlaps) and usually does everything rather than an ophtho where the tech does 50% of the job. In any case, optoms are held to the same legal standards. Both are doctors and in the eyes of the law there is no difference when it comes to misdiagnosis or any other kind of malpractice.
  19. xanthomondo

    xanthomondo nom nom nom

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    These graphics make me lol

    "Green means optos can prescribe many/all oral agents" What does "many" even mean?

    The injectables graphic makes it look like opto's are able to give avastin injections. Treatment of anaphylaxis? So they're allowed to stab a patient with an epi pen?
  20. FuturePharm21

    FuturePharm21

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    How does one make connections? I keep hearing this more and more and I come from a family with no physicians so I'm guessing you make these connections during your 3rd/4th year rotations? Or are we supposed to do something else.

    And I agree, I think optometry is a perfectly good field but he shouldn't be pushing his agenda when I'm asking a optho question.
  21. EyeGuy15

    EyeGuy15

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    First and foremost, do incredibly well first and second year. You grades will not matter much, but you need to absolutely dominate USMLE step 1. MD schools are not interested in the COMLEX. If you have any free time during first year get in touch with your ophtho department and ask them what projects, opportunities, etc are out there. Don't plan on working a whole lot with them but throwing your name out there first and foremost is a good idea.

    I don't know how much time you have in between first and second year (we had like 2 months or so), but this time should be spent working closely with ophthalmologists in academia (DO/MD). "Be a sponge". Literally, your best bet is to pick a location of where you are able to spend this time(if not your home program), and send mass emails out to every ophthalmologist you can find in academics(Department websites usually have contact info). You may get a 5% response rate with maybe 1-2 solid opportunities. Just make sure to keep up your relationships throughout medical school of the people you worked with and work hard to show your serious.

    When application time comes, you want people to feel very comfortable writing you a letter, making a phone call, sending a personal email out etc. Ophtho is a small field so everyone involved in academics is connected in some way. Your best bet is still matching at a DO program, but if you approach the whole process as someone "working from behind", you will be in good shape.

    Like I said before, your step 1 will be the deciding factor if most MD programs even look at your application (assuming they consider DO's). REMEMBER: STEP 1 IS THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR

    .
  22. RestoreSight

    RestoreSight

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    Ditto. Well said. General order of importance for a rock-solid app

    1. Outstanding STEP 1 - gets you in the door
    2. Strong Letters
    3. Research
    4. Clinical grades

    This goes double for DOs who are already at a disadvantage. Who you know is huge. A phone call from one buddy to another in this field can trump just about any weakness in your application.
  23. flodhi1

    flodhi1

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    I have seen you trolling around many different threads pre-allo/premed, Allo and now Resident/Physician forums talking about how you're superior and decided not to choose medicine, how your optometry degree can do this and that etc.. I would really suggest you stfu and stay in your optometry forum instead of trolling around. Thank you very much :thumbup:
  24. FuturePharm21

    FuturePharm21

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    Another question I had was is there stats published on how many DO's get optho residencies? Since, theres several allopathic programs, just wondering.
  25. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    You call it trolling. I call it informing. Noted :)

    Btw, I never said I'm superior. Don't misconstrue my words.
  26. flodhi1

    flodhi1

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    Right how could I say superior when all you had was a 3.18 GPA in undergrad.
  27. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    Haha, like I'd put my real GPA up. Our schools average is 3.5, think about it.
  28. flodhi1

    flodhi1

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    In your post history years ago when you were applying to Pharmacy schools in the What are my Chances forum you posted your stats and standardized test scores. No one is retarded enough to put a lower GPA in their what are my chances just stop trying too hard man. Your GPA was too low that's why you did not apply to medical school or you did with nothing but rejections and now you're trying to convince yourself and others that the career you settled for is almost as equivalent to medicine. I got some old news for you, Optometry was never on par with medicine and never will be just stop with the trolling now seriously.
  29. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    LOL I never applied to any pharmacy schools nor medical schools for that matter. Stop attacking me on a personal level and calling me a troll, hypocrite. I never said Optometry is on par with medicine. Again, misconstruing my words. Do you have psychiatric issues?
  30. flodhi1

    flodhi1

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    I'm sorry forgive me this was your What are my chances for OPTOMETRY school posted on 09-09-2010, 08:33 PM which YOU LATER edited on 12-22-2011 at 11:35 PM. However, Commando303 Quoted your original post which can be seen on the thread down below.

    This can be seen on this thread by all users:-
    http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=763113

    The fact is that you keep trolling around.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2012
  31. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    Oh please, go on :) Explain what you'd do :)

    [​IMG]
  32. flodhi1

    flodhi1

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    This was your original trolling post in other forums. You have a superiority complex and you try to put others down and we really don't appreciate that. You're putting other people down in the medical forums when you yourself are an OPTOMETRY STUDENT wtf is wrong with you?

    I would Laugh at your whole life where you run around on forums telling everyone you're a gifted person who just decided not to go to medical school for personal reasons and picked Optometry as a career. In the end of the day you're going to be an Optometrist instead of a Physician. You can troll in all the forums you want but you know what the truth is.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2012
  33. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    Your MD Apps profile is definitely more truthful than my SDN info. Let's see here:
    "GPA is < 3.5, Finished most secondaries in mid July and I will be listing in the bottom why I think I got into medical school with below average stats."
    " My cGPA is 3.37 and my sGPA is 3.40 with a MCAT score of 29"

    So judging by this, more than half of my optometry class had a higher GPA than you. :thumbup:

    Here's a better one:
    Dude....3.19....you should NOT be talking. Hypocrite to the MAX.

    Potential diagnosis for you: PTSD from overseas duty in Iraq.
    You will learn very fast that medical school is an extremely humbling experience and I'd recommend you go see a professional before you start.



    George Mason University ---> Virginia Commonwealth University

    Nice choice but if you don't want your application being rescinded I'd watch who you make enemies with. Certain phone calls can be made by certain individuals.
  34. flodhi1

    flodhi1

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    I don't care about your threats. Threaten me all you want but listen to this I am on this forum to help individuals not to put them down. In the end of the day you do not see me telling others I'm too good for this and that and that you can't become a doctor. You're going around the forum putting people down in the preallo forum and we don't appreciate that :thumbdown:
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2012
  35. xanthomondo

    xanthomondo nom nom nom

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    :laugh:

    wow, that's a little desperate
  36. FuturePharm21

    FuturePharm21

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    I don't know why my simple question turned into this, although it is funny and entertaining
  37. shinbeats

    shinbeats

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    You're really lame lol is this all you do on this forum all day? threaten premeds LOL get a life dude. I've read many of your previous posts and you're a trolololololol

    A little desperate? lol desperation to the max.
  38. Shnurek

    Shnurek

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    He got scared and edited a lot of his messages. "you will be an optometrist a.k.a. LOSER not a physician" and worse. This guy tells me that I put people down which I do but then he goes ahead and puts me down. He complains that I stated that I had a 3.18 while he himself had a 3.19.

    He first:
    -Personally attacked me by calling out my purported academic history.
    -Threatened me.

    I am merely defending myself and he is just a giant troll/hypocrite himself.
  39. upright

    upright

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    To answer the OP, it's because the eye is not the whole person. It's just the eyes.

    [​IMG]
    In memoriam: blessed be his name
  40. shinbeats

    shinbeats

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    Just let it go fool this is a forum. You reap what you sow. If you put others down then others will put you down. Maybe both of you need to change your attitudes.
  41. xanthomondo

    xanthomondo nom nom nom

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    "But he started it....:mad:"
  42. russiandoc

    russiandoc

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    :laugh::laugh:

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