Why so many women?

[equineaggiegal]

This might be an off the wall topic but I was curious to hear the forum’s opinion on why there has been such a rise in women choosing veterinary medicine as a career?

I was out to lunch with friends the other day and this subject came up. We all had our own theory... one simply being a change in our society’s view of gender roles- making it ok for girls to be vets.

I find it interesting that the m to f ratio of students admitted to vet school seen 30 or so years ago, is almost the exact opposite of the stats now- I think across the board at every (US) school. What caused all the guys to go away

I've worked with animal science orientation at my college and the joke one of the professors tells is... hey this is a great place to pick up girls, look at your odds. He doesnt understand why more guys dont apply to the program. For the guys that do come, he will jokingly say there is a disclaimer on their folders stating not to let all the ladies distract them and put them to shame.

Any thoughts...

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[verbal_kint]

I really don't know why, but as far as thirty years ago, i think it'd be safe to say that any professional job was probably dominated by men.

 

[youthman]

I don't know, but I'm definitely not complaining.

 

[jojocola]

All the sudden I believe my dog needs a check up.

 

[Chouzan]

There were a few newspaper articles awhile back about this, in a way. According to the articles, more and more women are going to college (undergrad , and so also grad schools) and men are becoming rarer. And I know my undergrad college is more than 80% women. So I think one of the reasons there are so many women is due to a lack in male undergrads. I also noticed, in my college, so it might not be true elsewhere, that the few men who are in college tend to be history majors. Only a few of them are biology majors, and non are chem majors, they avoid the sciences. So I think this is probably a huge reason why there are fewer men going to vet school. There is also the fact the vet school is harder to get into than medical school (or so I'm always told) and everyone knows women want to marry a doctor (yes, that was sarcasm). I do think there is the general idea that you might as well go to medical school. Even my pre-health advisor tried to talk me into medical school, so I can imagine it happening to the guys at my school as well...
(The article)

 

[HorseyVet]

I really don't know why, but as far as thirty years ago, i think it'd be safe to say that any professional job was probably dominated by men.

This is part of it..
Vet Economics put out a whole analysis of the "Gender Shift" last year. If you're really interested you probably can find it somewhere.

There are a lot of problems to the gender shift that most people don't want to talk about b/c it's not PC.

For one there is an obvious decline in vets going into large/food/industry/publlic health type jobs. The general decline in family farms whoose children would often go on to work in those industries is also a factor for this.

Another problem is that many of the women veiw being a veterinarian more as a "hobby profession," than the men that occupied the roles years ago. Essentially when men were vets, during a time when not as many women were professionals and much fewer homes had two professional job holders, the men were essentially "more dedicated" because they were primarily responsible for the household income. Now, it is not uncommon for women to become vets and drop out of practice for several years to raise children. When they return to practice they certainly aren't as good as someone of the same age who has those ten years of experience. Essentially there is a group of veterinarians out there who are really a lot less experienced then they should be, and it begets a sort of "brain drain" phenomena.

There are also some even more less PC problems with the gender shift that I'll only mention by saying, there are some things that women have to offer the profession but that too much of it really isn't a great thing.

 

[verbal_kint]

Essentially there is a group of veterinarians out there who are really a lot less experienced then they should be, and it begets a sort of "brain drain" phenomena.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Usually, a "brain drain" refers to people leaving say the US to go to like India because of more favorable circumstances. For instance, people talk about a brain drain happening due to stem cell restrictions in the US. This causes more brains to leave the US and go to other countries with fewer laws regulating stem cell research. Hence, the "brain drain."

Am I totally off on this?

 

[HorseyVet]

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Usually, a "brain drain" refers to people leaving say the US to go to like India because of more favorable circumstances. For instance, people talk about a brain drain happening due to stem cell restrictions in the US. This causes more brains to leave the US and go to other countries with fewer laws regulating stem cell research. Hence, the "brain drain."

Am I totally off on this?

Those are other circumstances where the terms has been used....I was using it here b/c I think the effect is the same....essentially the brains that are there may not be as good as they were several years ago because instead of having (and I am totally making these numbers up) 95% of the vets out there over the age of 45 having 30 years or more of experience, now maybe there are only 70% with 30+ years of experience. Adjusting for population increases we're graduating about the same numbers of vets, (maybe more in reality b/c of non-US schools, but that's a different conversation) however many of these vets may or may not stay in the profession consistently for the same amount of years as they did in previous years....

Essentially you have the same amount of brains, just less experience between them. I thought "brain drain" worked as a way to describe the phenomena but I can see where it is a little confusing. sorry.

 

[Apollo84]

I believe that men in the science majors are more likely to try for medical school than veterinary school, partially because it is more money but also because vet medicine is seen as more "feminine" with the shift to small animal medicine. I guess the mostly female classes are just reinforcement to that perception.

 

[HorseyVet]

I believe that men in the science majors are more likely to try for medical school than veterinary school, partially because it is more money but also because vet medicine is seen as more "feminine" with the shift to small animal medicine. I guess the mostly female classes are just reinforcement to that perception.

I think the numbers of males vs. female applying has changed slightly, but not as much as one would expect...that Vet economic article would have the stats there...

Another theory...which again isn't PC, is that basically vet school criteria, in that it has become more and more numbers oriented has started to favor women over men. The idea is that statistically women do better in school in the first few years then guys and better on standardized tests...thus they are better "on paper" applicants in general....The push to make admissions unbiased favored a push to numbers (objective) rather than subjective measures and therefore have (in trying to be unbiased) biased the selection toward women.

There are obviously a lot of places to disagree with that theory, but there's also supporting evidence. Anyway...not very PC.

 

[ReinaDeLuz]

I think the numbers of males vs. female applying has changed slightly, but not as much as one would expect...that Vet economic article would have the stats there...

Another theory...which again isn't PC, is that basically vet school criteria, in that it has become more and more numbers oriented has started to favor women over men. The idea is that statistically women do better in school in the first few years then guys and better on standardized tests...thus they are better "on paper" applicants in general....The push to make admissions unbiased favored a push to numbers (objective) rather than subjective measures and therefore have (in trying to be unbiased) biased the selection toward women.

There are obviously a lot of places to disagree with that theory, but there's also supporting evidence. Anyway...not very PC.

hmm. i would agree that that theory is not very PC, and perhaps it could be true to some extent, but it doesnt not explain the trend (at least at my school, UF) of undergraduate animal sciences majors being like 95% female. i dont think its a matter of schools are choosing more women over men, i think less men are applying...and less men are choosing to pursue the field from the start of their undergraduate education.

i know animal sciences majors are not the only ones that apply to vet school, but at UF they are generally the majority. also ive noticed this in places like the pre-vet club (95% female members, if not more). i can't even begin to speculate on why men aren't choosing to pursue veterinary medicine, but i do think that this is a matter of their choice, not the schools choices.

ive heard it said that men tend to pursue more lucrative fields like medicine, but that theory just doesnt sit right with me. it has to be something else. perhaps this is a mystery that will never be solved to anyones satisfaction. :-0

 

[ginkogirl]

Another problem is that many of the women veiw being a veterinarian more as a "hobby profession," than the men that occupied the roles years ago. Essentially when men were vets, during a time when not as many women were professionals and much fewer homes had two professional job holders, the men were essentially "more dedicated" because they were primarily responsible for the household income. Now, it is not uncommon for women to become vets and drop out of practice for several years to raise children. When they return to practice they certainly aren't as good as someone of the same age who has those ten years of experience. Essentially there is a group of veterinarians out there who are really a lot less experienced then they should be, and it begets a sort of "brain drain" phenomena.

In response to HorseyVet:

I think it might be a little harsh to generalize that all women who hope to cut back on work to raise children consider their career to be a "hobby profession". I for one, do not agree with shipping young kids off to daycare for many hours each day, yet I don't think this opinion makes me any less serious about my goal of becoming a vet. I assume that you are not implying that women who want to have children should stay out of veterinary medicine altogether (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) but it is also not fair to say that female vets with families will make worse veterinarians then men or women with no children.

Choosing between family and a career is a hard decision to make, and I think it is good that women today can do things like cut back on work to spend time raising their children. This post is meant as a friendly criticism only and I look forward to hearing your response!

~Lisa

 

[HorseyVet]

In response to HorseyVet:

I think it might be a little harsh to generalize that all women who hope to cut back on work to raise children consider their career to be a "hobby profession". I for one, do not agree with shipping young kids off to daycare for many hours each day, yet I don't think this opinion makes me any less serious about my goal of becoming a vet. I assume that you are not implying that women who want to have children should stay out of veterinary medicine altogether (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) but it is also not fair to say that female vets with families will make worse veterinarians then men or women with no children.

Choosing between family and a career is a hard decision to make, and I think it is good that women today can do things like cut back on work to spend time raising their children. This post is meant as a friendly criticism only and I look forward to hearing your response!

~Lisa

Well I'm really the wrong person's opinion to ask about this because I really don't plan on having children. I'm sure it's possible to remain professionally competent and competive when you have children but it certainly isn't as easy if you are married-to-the-job type person. If you stop practicing medicine, for whatever reason, you will fall behind those that didn't "take a break." I'm sure to an extent, it also matters when you "take a break"....if you've already been practicing for 20 years...it's probably not as big of a deal as if you've been practicing for 5.

Like similar professional occupations, experience matters...If vet med is 80% female and even half of these people "take a break" to have kids then you can see where the profession is loosing a precious reservior of knowledge that used to lie in the older practitioners.

 

[Chouzan]

I think it might be a little harsh to generalize that all women who hope to cut back on work to raise children consider their career to be a "hobby profession". I for one, do not agree with shipping young kids off to daycare for many hours each day, yet I don't think this opinion makes me any less serious about my goal of becoming a vet. I assume that you are not implying that women who want to have children should stay out of veterinary medicine altogether (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) but it is also not fair to say that female vets with families will make worse veterinarians then men or women with no children.

Choosing between family and a career is a hard decision to make, and I think it is good that women today can do things like cut back on work to spend time raising their children. This post is meant as a friendly criticism only and I look forward to hearing your response!

~Lisa

For me (since I do want a family), my boyfriend has agreed that he'll stay home or work part time for our kids, so I don't have to choose between a family or a career. I also agree that I don't want a daycare raising my kids, but with all the time I'll put into schooling and how enjoyable I hope it will be, you'd have to drag me away from work! It'd make me feel like a broodmare or something, not to mention it seems really silly to have the one with an advanced degree, to stay home... These days its not just family or career, as long as the other parent is open to staying home. I respect my bf so much more for being willing to stay home . Anyway, I'll stop derailing the thread now.

 

[wishes]

I believe that men in the science majors are more likely to try for medical school than veterinary school, partially because it is more money but also because vet medicine is seen as more "feminine" with the shift to small animal medicine. I guess the mostly female classes are just reinforcement to that perception.

This had been my synopsis of the situation as well. Over the last decades there has been a tremendous shift away from agriculture/large animal veterinarians and toward small animal private/specialty practice. I do not think it is necessarily monetary motivators that draw men toward human medicine, but rather those with a general interest in medicine are more likely to pursue allopathic medicine that the alternatives in veterinary medicine. Small animal practice is perceived as uncomfortably feminine while large animal practice appeals to only a small sector of the populous, especially with this generation’s shift away from farming as a typical form of family subsistence. This is coupled with the rise in women pursuing college degress and subsequent professional careers.

 

[BrushGoodDar]

I think a big factor that hasn't been mentioned as to why there are so many more women in the veterinary field now is that our society views animal care as feminine. As a male entering the profession, whenever I tell women that I am going to vet school I always get that "awwww" response. I'd be interested to know if I would get the same response from women 20-30 years ago when veterinary medicine was male dominated. I think the difference (assuming there is a difference) comes from the shift from farm animal medicine to mostly companion animal medicine. House pets are much more common now than they were in the past, and I would guess that women are the predominant pet owners. Women instinctualy desire that nurturing feeling they get from taking care of a living organisms whether it be their biological child, adopted child, or pug. Since veterinary medicine of late mostly deals with pets, that femininity is transferred to the veterinarian who cares for the animal.

 

[kate_g]

To add a slightly different angle, I read a list of past interview questions on some pre-vet club's web site and one school (don't remember which) had apparently been asking what the interviewee thought about the "overpopulation" of women in veterinary medicine, and possibly even what the interviewee thought should be done about it. I was stunned. Nobody worries about the "overpopulation" of women in nursing, or teaching, or any other female-dominated field. You can discuss all you want about *why* veterinary medicine is being taken over by women, but I was really shocked that an admissions committee would consider it a *problem* that needed to be remedied. Was it some old-guard male vets who were feeling threatened? Old-guard female vets worried about looking less hard-core (because they were beating the odds when they got into the profession, and will now look average)? I'm mystified. I mean, what should be *done* about it? How about wild celebration? A field that takes strong science academics, compassion, people skills, problem solving, and is technically challenging and often physically demanding, *and* it's attracting more women than men? F*** yeah! Bring it on! Girls rock!

 

[Iain]

I think women are more sympathetic to animals at a younger age, making it a more natural progression for them - at a young age how many guys looked after kittens, went all 'goo-goo' over puppies, aspired to be professional riders, or dolphin trainers?

 

[StealthDog]

Does anyone know if the same sort of trend is occurring among MDs/DOs?

 

[HorseyVet]

one school (don't remember which) had apparently been asking what the interviewee thought about the "overpopulation" of women in veterinary medicine, and possibly even what the interviewee thought should be done about it. I was stunned

Well at the very least I wouldn't say that the feild becoming dominated by women is by any stretch problem-free....


About some of the other comments about veterinary in general or even specifically small animal being considered feminine....I guess I never ever saw it that way...however, all of my mentors and/or simply vets I've really admired have been male....

 

[Iain]

Does anyone know if the same sort of trend is occurring among MDs/DOs?

In certain specialties like pediatrics, and OB/GYN this has been a growing trend.

 

[youthman]

50/50 balance is *probably* best for the future of the profession, but like I said I'm not complaining

 

[lazyjayn]

what the interviewee thought about the "overpopulation" of women in veterinary medicine

I have to wonder how many people answered that seriously rather than saying the very tempting "well, I take my .22, and..." or something about an extra test at matric. for "dangly bits" or lifting cows, or something.

More seriously, I have a friend who grew up on a dairy farm. Of his 4 or so brothers, he's the only one in college, and probably the only one who will go. having met them all, I've got to say he's the only one who would've had a shot at vet. Kids coming off farms, where they've got hours of farm stuff to do on top of school stuff, plus a hefty drive to and from school don't have time to do nothing but study. Then at college they end up either living at home, because the family farm needs them working there to stay afloat, or they work where they go to school, because their family can't help them out with money, and the grades suffer.

And sexist though it sounds, I think american families are still more willing to share their economic truths with boys before sharing with girls, so boys growing up on farms (or in cities, but I have yet to meet a guy from the city with a healthy desire to stick his arm up a cow's butt) have a pretty good idea what it really costs to live, and what the vet gets paid, and *when* the vet gets paid, and probably about how much the vet makes a year.

Knowing all that, would you take on 60 or 80 or 200k in debt over 4 or 8 years? when the same 4 or 8 could have you set up in a decent career where you wouldn't risk life and limb, and could buy a house and support a family after a couple years?

Yeah, mainly, it's just not economically feasable to be a LA vet. Until/ unless they seriously subsidise LA vet spots, the numbers won't go up. And as long as the pay/ prestige is better, men will go into human medicine, because money and power are what our society respects.

oddly enough, here in NZ, where LA vets seem to make an ok living, and most farms look to be pretty family owned, it's still about 5:2 chicks to dudes trying to get in. And the school is *very* large animal focused. But then, you just need a B average, and a kick @$$ interview to get in. (I think the mix in class is a bit better- but probably not much)

j.

 

[MossPoh]

There were a few newspaper articles awhile back about this, in a way. According to the articles, more and more women are going to college (undergrad , and so also grad schools) and men are becoming rarer. And I know my undergrad college is more than 80% women. So I think one of the reasons there are so many women is due to a lack in male undergrads.
(The article)

Hey all..normally in the medicine forums but I'll change it to vet for a bit. This is true mainly because 20-30 years ago they really started taking the focus off of males in k-12...slowly but surely that is. Their thoughts were simply that they don't have any problems and males dominate college so we will try to focus on the females. Fair enough. Except that in the process they kind of let A LOT of borderline males drop off the radar. You can see it a bit in how many scholarships are offered for females in science/engineering and what not...Also teaching styles are slowly going over to a more female oriented style. Not topics or anything, but in general males learn differently than females. With the lack of school funding and everything else elementary schools are taking things like recess out of the equation because they dont' see it as necessary but it was shown that males REALLY need this period where they run around and burn off energy to have any beneficial learning really happen, that combined with the general attitude that boys can handle themselves has created this deficit. I am all about equal oppurtunity but it does bother me when EITHER side is forgotten or put at a disadvantage. Also...as for the vet thing. I just seem to know more girls that love animals that much. Almost every girl I know is/has been on an equestrian team or I met when I was volunteering at the humane society..stuff like that.

 

[spikey]

I for one, do not agree with shipping young kids off to daycare for many hours each day, yet I don't think this opinion makes me any less serious about my goal of becoming a vet. I assume that you are not implying that women who want to have children should stay out of veterinary medicine altogether (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) but it is also not fair to say that female vets with families will make worse veterinarians then men or women with no children.

knowing that i can do what i love and have time for a family and raising kids makes the vet profession all the more appealing. the best vet i know has her own very successful practice and two lovely children. i know it can be done.

 

[youthman]

Sure it can be done, there are vets that only work 6 mos/year - they share a small practice with another vet and trade off every 1/2 year.

 

[ginkogirl]

In response to Spikey and Youthman:

I completely agree with you both. It's great to hear that there are vets out there who are excelling at their career and also successfully raising a family also!


In response to HorseyVet:

Although I understand your concern about the potential of losing precious expeirence time during child-rearing, and the implications it may have on veterinary medicine as a whole, I still don't agree that cutting back on work while raising children would make one a significantly inferior vet. As Spikey and Youthman pointed out, there are vets out there succeeding at managing career and family and I would assume that most vets do not completely stop practicing once they have children (which may help them "keep up" in the field.) The observation that many vets do continue to practice (at least part-time) while raising children, indicates to me that they do not consider veterinary medicine to be a "hobby profession," rather that having a family introduces a new level of responcibility which may require you to cut back on your career for a while. And, as Spikey again mentioned, it's great that veterinary medicine is a field which does allow for this! *apologies to Spikey and Youthman if I misinterpreted or misquoted your posts here*

~Lisa

 

[HorseyVet]

In response to HorseyVet:

Although I understand your concern about the potential of losing precious expeirence time during child-rearing, and the implications it may have on veterinary medicine as a whole, I still don't agree that cutting back on work while raising children would make one a significantly inferior vet. As Spikey and Youthman pointed out, there are vets out there succeeding at managing career and family and I would assume that most vets do not completely stop practicing once they have children (which may help them "keep up" in the field.).

It probably can be done, but I personally know several several vets who droped out of medicine almost completely for over 5 years. Several admitted that this wasn't their plan but that they couldn't do both. A number of them switched to more corporate or admisistrative, less hands on positions. They switched usually because of the better hours and benefits.

There has been a lot of talk in the last few years about how the influx of women has shifted what a practice can ask of a new associate. Essentially they can't ask as much b/c and these new associates can get away with it b/c they have a second income and actually have some bargining power. If you were the sole or primary provider you're more likely to take a job working heavier hours b/c you need the income. I'm not saying the way some associates have been treated in the past is right, but I think everythings shifted too far in the other direction.

 

[lizzie-dvm]

Societal changes going unsaid, I think that the key reason is that it is such an excellent career choice for women (men too ). It is a job that you can get paid very well doing part-time (relative to full-time)- and it is relatively easy to find part-time employment. Also, there is much geographical flexibility.

Granted, this is a pretty small factor into why I would like to be a vet, but it is important to me.

Liz

 

[piercj2]

In all respect and honesty, I think for the most part females just out perform males in college. It is not a trend in the U.S, but all over the globe. Most progressive minded nations show that females are more likely to stay in school longer and do better. Partly, I think it is because males are more likely to get involved in risky behavior or pursue other endeavors that are more meaningful to them when they are younger. Also males are more independent minded and less likely to just listen and do whatever the teacher wants. To me it is really sad, and I think that most females are not sure what the work world will entail, and may not enjoy the compitition and interaction with people face to face in more of a physical nature, also working requires more consistant dedication and decision making ability. I am not saying the females are not capable of this, but many of them are not intrinsically made for authoratative and assertive positions. It may be beneficial for females to start to enter the veternarin profession, but at the same time, females have and probably always will get paid less than males. If you look at almot every profession in the U.S there are disproportianately more males at the top, and males are much more likely to be found in higher paying fields. This trend will probably not change, as it has proven that when more females enter a job the pay goes down along with the prestige. It also seems consistant that many females want careers while they are young, but when they are put in a upper position for many years while working full time year around, they are more likely to experience burn out and want to work part time or stay at home. Over all I think men will always find a way to stay at the top of society, which is wrong considering sometimes it is through discrimination. And, overall it is true that females do better in school, which really is the a big determining factor in how much money one wil make.

 

[MossPoh]

It may be beneficial for females to start to enter the veternarin profession, but at the same time, females have and probably always will get paid less than males. If you look at almot every profession in the U.S there are disproportianately more males at the top, and males are much more likely to be found in higher paying fields.

I think the more males at top has to do with the fact that they are working 80 hour weeks and while there are females that want that...many DO want to have a family. Also I am always hesitant about the money stats. They can be twisted so many ways. There was one saying that women get paid 75 cents for every dollar a male, then another that said once you compare only specific areas instead of the whole it is 99 cents to the dollar..still lower but you know. (That 99 cent one was done by a female by the way) I have a few friends that are females in engineering and technology fields and they are getting offered a TON more money and jobs than their male counterparts that for the most part are exactly the same statistically. As far as females in vet...I don't know..I just don't know many guys that CARE that much about it. I love animals but not enough to spend my life taking care of tons of them...Anyway, medicine is now sliding towards the majority female as well...I actually think it reached 51 or 52 percent female last year. The risky behavior thing is true but I have seen just as many females meltdown the first year as well...I really seem to think achivement is more based in the teaching methods....I do agree with this unusual submissive nature that females take...I mean it had to stem in history somewhere since most cultures males always seem to take leadership position and in most areas of nature too...(most because places like ancient egypt were defintley exceptions)

 

[Truth74]

There may be the same number of male students available as before. They may just choose to go somewhere else.
Let's not leave out engineering when we talk about where the men went. Now a days, there are areas that didn't exist 30 years ago. Like molecular engineering.
As said previously, there are more women going to college than ever before, and thus an influx of women in areas that they were not able to go to before.

As far as the whole "brain drain" thing is concerned, I'm a non-trad, so I have my kids (3 of them) before I apply to vet school.
I would recommend checking out the non-trad forum on this issue. We've been talking this through for quite some time.

Truth74

 

[piercj2]

I still do beleive that women are not paid like men, or do not work like them. My parents live in a nice neighborhood, in a well off college town, and almost every family they know has the father as the breadwinner. Some of these families have duel earners and male alot of money, but it is consistent that the father is usually making a signifigant amount more than his spouse. However, most of these familes are from a different generation, where females were not as career minded. I just cant see the picture changing that much over time

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I still do beleive that women are not paid like men, or do not work like them. My parents live in a nice neighborhood, in a well off college town, and almost every family they know has the father as the breadwinner. Some of these families have duel earners and male alot of money, but it is consistent that the father is usually making a signifigant amount more than his spouse. However, most of these familes are from a different generation, where females were not as career minded. I just cant see the picture changing that much over time

Don't you think about or have anything else to contribute to SDN? Why are you here? What health profession are you pursuing? Yeah, we know you hate women and that you think we're poor decision makers and incapable of being successful. Anything else to share?

 

[piercj2]

I don't hate women, I already admitted that I thought they performed better in school than men and that is why they are entering so many jobs. I guess I may be a little bitter becuase I think they tend to look for certain attributes in themselves and in men that are not real. Like, liking a guy for his money, car, job, anything but for who he really is. Honestly it is just true, women marry up way more than men do, and honestly their are hundreds of women who will marry a man soley because he makes alot of money. Think about rich men who are old- how they get young beutiful women. I already gave an example of how donald trumps wives were all super models- this article represents the kind of ideas that I am talking about specifically-

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/CollegeandFamily/Loveandmoney/P142358.asp.

However the examples are endless-like professional athletes-do you really think women don't just throw themselves at them because they have money, prestige, or status in society? Of course they do. Whay about musicians who are famous or successful- do you think they have hundres of girls following them around upsessing over them because of thier personality or who they are at heart- of course not. The fact is if you look for those qulaities in a partner or a relationship, it represents the fact that you value those things in people in general, or as a whole. And its true-women do look for men with status, wealth, or material possesions because they want to be seen as being important or above other people in society (why else would you do it). Rarely do you hear of a man dating a women because she has a nice car, or she is a, "bad girl," or because she has a prestigous job, or status in society. This is because men date women based on physical attraction and how they connet with the person- not the car, job, look ect. If women value these attributes of material look or possesion in other people, they also value it in themselves. It is true that a women may be attracted to a man for his money first, and then fall in love, as a man may be attracted to a women for her sex appeal and then fall in love. However, just the idea of starting a intament relationship with someone because of money, cars, houses, prestige, ect, is utterly ridiculous to me, even if it develops into something deeper. Overall its just the concept of the matter, that I do beleive females in general look for attraction in men on the surface level consistently, and this pattern just gets so old after you see so many examples of how passionless and unimaginitive it is to value your signigant other based on something like that.

 

[spikey]

In response to Spikey and Youthman:

I completely agree with you both. It's great to hear that there are vets out there who are excelling at their career and also successfully raising a family also!


In response to HorseyVet:

Although I understand your concern about the potential of losing precious expeirence time during child-rearing, and the implications it may have on veterinary medicine as a whole, I still don't agree that cutting back on work while raising children would make one a significantly inferior vet. As Spikey and Youthman pointed out, there are vets out there succeeding at managing career and family and I would assume that most vets do not completely stop practicing once they have children (which may help them "keep up" in the field.) The observation that many vets do continue to practice (at least part-time) while raising children, indicates to me that they do not consider veterinary medicine to be a "hobby profession," rather that having a family introduces a new level of responcibility which may require you to cut back on your career for a while. And, as Spikey again mentioned, it's great that veterinary medicine is a field which does allow for this! *apologies to Spikey and Youthman if I misinterpreted or misquoted your posts here*

~Lisa

you interpreted correctly. :]

where i work, the three women share the workload. the one is pregnant right now, and will get 6 weeks off pretty soon to have her child. but by sharing the workload, it gives them time for both their families and the profession they love.

i think perhaps there are more women in the field now due to the increased amount of workload "sharing." from the male vets that i have spoken to, they all seem that they want the practice for their own, and to do it themselves. more and more women are willing to share it and work together rather than alone to allow more time for other important things. i hope that made some sense.

 

[youthman]

I don't hate women, I already admitted that I thought they performed better in school than men and that is why they are entering so many jobs. I guess I may be a little bitter becuase I think they tend to look for certain attributes in themselves and in men that are not real. Like, liking a guy for his money, car, job, anything but for who he really is. Honestly it is just true, women marry up way more than men do, and honestly their are hundreds of women who will marry a man soley because he makes alot of money. Think about rich men who are old- how they get young beutiful women. I already gave an example of how donald trumps wives were all super models- this article represents the kind of ideas that I am talking about specifically-

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/CollegeandFamily/Loveandmoney/P142358.asp.

However the examples are endless-like professional athletes-do you really think women don't just throw themselves at them because they have money, prestige, or status in society? Of course they do. Whay about musicians who are famous or successful- do you think they have hundres of girls following them around upsessing over them because of thier personality or who they are at heart- of course not. The fact is if you look for those qulaities in a partner or a relationship, it represents the fact that you value those things in people in general, or as a whole. And its true-women do look for men with status, wealth, or material possesions because they want to be seen as being important or above other people in society (why else would you do it). Rarely do you hear of a man dating a women because she has a nice car, or she is a, "bad girl," or because she has a prestigous job, or status in society. This is because men date women based on physical attraction and how they connet with the person- not the car, job, look ect. If women value these attributes of material look or possesion in other people, they also value it in themselves. It is true that a women may be attracted to a man for his money first, and then fall in love, as a man may be attracted to a women for her sex appeal and then fall in love. However, just the idea of starting a intament relationship with someone because of money, cars, houses, prestige, ect, is utterly ridiculous to me, even if it develops into something deeper. Overall its just the concept of the matter, that I do beleive females in general look for attraction in men on the surface level consistently, and this pattern just gets so old after you see so many examples of how passionless and unimaginitive it is to value your signigant other based on something like that.

time to grab some popcorn

 

[BuckyBoy_DDS]

At my school, 96% of engineering majors are male..


Unfortunately, I think it comes down to $$$$...A buddy of my just graduated college (4 years) as a Chemical Engineer and is starting off at $75k vs. going the vet route (8 years + lots of debt) and starting at $60k...