Why would anyone in their right mind pick Medicine over Dentistry?

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Blippy

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Look, I know there's a lot of these topics around here and this is not meant to offend anyone. I'm just trying to get some questions cleared up.

As I current first year Medical student and with Obamacare on the way, I cannot help but think that I have made the wrong choice.

1. Dental school seems to be easier to get into than Med School, but still people crave med.

2. As far as I'm concerned, having "DMD/DDS" is the same as having an MD. They're both respectable professions in their own right and I don't see how dentists are more or less doctors.

3. Dentists seem to have limitless earning potential. Also the average salary of dentists is higher than IM/FM physicians (which lets be realistic here, with me being an USIMG, that's where I'll end up)

4. Dentists work less than Primary Care physicans and make the same amount of money if not more.

5. USMLE vs Dental Boards (sorry don't know the name) I'm not sure how difficult they are compared to the Steps, can anyone comment?

6. Dentists can open multiple practices, I dont know physicans doing this.

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yawn...
 
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Money and respect are equal... they must be equal...

:(
 
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Because despite the relative "ease" of dental school/dentistry, most of us cannot imagine having our hands in other peoples' mouths for the next 20-30 years. Teeth, to me, aren't that interesting.
 
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Because despite the relative "ease" of dental school/dentistry, ...

If you choose a career because it's easy, or the path of least resistance, you can expect to by miserable. You didn't choose such a path, you fell into it. Sometimes this ends up being a good match, most of the time not. A satisfying career is one that challenges you, one where you actually get some job satisfaction. Not one which pays the bills. If you weren't all that bright, and couldn't do well in college, or maybe even go to college, and thereafter simply went to the best paying job you could get, stocking shelves or whatever, then sure, you could be happy that you were getting a nice paycheck and living for the weekends, because you didn't really have a choice. Folks who are choosing amongst professions have a choice. For them it's not adequate to get a paycheck and live for the weekends, or at least shouldn't be. When you have no choice you take the best you can get. When you have a choice it's not acceptable to pick a field that is easy but where you basically dread going to work each morning and live for the weekends. You are obligated to find something that satisfies you and if it doesn't, then you need to change things up. (Which is why you see so many career changers on this board switching from other professional fields to medicine -- we have a choice, we aren't simply serving out our life sentence).
So if you like dentistry, then great. But don't do it because it's easier and because you can make decent money without working up a sweat. Most of us had easier paths we opted not to follow, and for good reason. A few years down the road, you will probably realize how much more important it is to be happy doing what you are doing than being well paid for what you are doing. You are spending most of your waking hours doing a professional job, so you'd better like it -- there is no paycheck that gets you back your life again.
 
If you choose a career because it's easy, or the path of least resistance, you can expect to by miserable. You didn't choose such a path, you fell into it. Sometimes this ends up being a good match, most of the time not. A satisfying career is one that challenges you, one where you actually get some job satisfaction. Not one which pays the bills. If you weren't all that bright, and couldn't do well in college, or maybe even go to college, and thereafter simply went to the best paying job you could get, stocking shelves or whatever, then sure, you could be happy that you were getting a nice paycheck and living for the weekends, because you didn't really have a choice. Folks who are choosing amongst professions have a choice. For them it's not adequate to get a paycheck and live for the weekends, or at least shouldn't be. When you have no choice you take the best you can get. When you have a choice it's not acceptable to pick a field that is easy but where you basically dread going to work each morning and live for the weekends. You are obligated to find something that satisfies you and if it doesn't, then you need to change things up. (Which is why you see so many career changers on this board switching from other professional fields to medicine -- we have a choice, we aren't simply serving out our life sentence).
So if you like dentistry, then great. But don't do it because it's easier and because you can make decent money without working up a sweat. Most of us had easier paths we opted not to follow, and for good reason. A few years down the road, you will probably realize how much more important it is to be happy doing what you are doing than being well paid for what you are doing. You are spending most of your waking hours doing a professional job, so you'd better like it -- there is no paycheck that gets you back your life again.

:thumbup:
 
If you choose a career because it's easy, or the path of least resistance, you can expect to by miserable. You didn't choose such a path, you fell into it. Sometimes this ends up being a good match, most of the time not. A satisfying career is one that challenges you, one where you actually get some job satisfaction. Not one which pays the bills. If you weren't all that bright, and couldn't do well in college, or maybe even go to college, and thereafter simply went to the best paying job you could get, stocking shelves or whatever, then sure, you could be happy that you were getting a nice paycheck and living for the weekends, because you didn't really have a choice. Folks who are choosing amongst professions have a choice. For them it's not adequate to get a paycheck and live for the weekends, or at least shouldn't be. When you have no choice you take the best you can get. When you have a choice it's not acceptable to pick a field that is easy but where you basically dread going to work each morning and live for the weekends. You are obligated to find something that satisfies you and if it doesn't, then you need to change things up. (Which is why you see so many career changers on this board switching from other professional fields to medicine -- we have a choice, we aren't simply serving out our life sentence).
So if you like dentistry, then great. But don't do it because it's easier and because you can make decent money without working up a sweat. Most of us had easier paths we opted not to follow, and for good reason. A few years down the road, you will probably realize how much more important it is to be happy doing what you are doing than being well paid for what you are doing. You are spending most of your waking hours doing a professional job, so you'd better like it -- there is no paycheck that gets you back your life again.

Amen. OP, you forgot the most important factor: loving what you do. If you want to own your own business, have less debt, an easier field to get into, work with your hands, less hours, etc, I would skip college altogether and become an electrician.
 
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You think dentistry is gonna stay the same way?

The Medicare monkeys and insurance cockholsters are getting on them too. My buddy waited 3 months for his payment from I think BCBS Dental. It's gonna get worse for them too. Not everybody can run a cash only office. Dental school tuition sucks even more right now (50K+).

The solution is BUSINESS school. Right out of undergrad, you can get a decent job that doesn't drain away your personal time. Don't expect 6 figures upfront. You gotta work for it. But you don't have the debt and years of sacrifice without a guaranteed yearly return.
 
Seems like dentistry is just waiting to get chopped. I read a thread the other day in dental about mid-level types getting expanded dental rights, and I also can't imagine that a lot of areas aren't going to start to see mad saturation. I think I could walk a mile in every direction near my house and hit 3-4 general dentist office in each direction. Also, it's not like dental school/getting into it is a walk in the park. I went to undergrad with a lot of pre-dents, they were intelligent, hard-working, and had great grades. One of my 4.0 all the way through buds was gonna go dent up until the last minute (went into business instead). It also seems like there is quite a bit of headaches in admin, low patient satisfaction (everyone hates the dentist), and that the big money is in specializing (ortho, endo, etc). I think the general guys usually end up around the range of FP/IM guys, and I disagree that the ceiling is higher or earning potential is unlimited. Physicians can open practices and stock them with NP/PAs, they can start pumping botox, go into med business, or always go back and do fellowships ... I don't see this as viable in dentistry. Also, there are fields in medicine that (despite the work being hard) dentistry can't touch salary wise.

The grass is always greener, and most people in health professions have this idea that everyone else is doing better than them. I remember reading a thread in podiatry where they were bashing on general FP docs for making the big bucks, when in reality, POD guys make decent money and probably more than FPs in a lot, lot of cases. Go into any of the threads ... every other field is always doing better. I think it's the competitive nature of those who make it this far in the game, always wanting to be the best, etc.

Anyway, I'm a pre-med, so take what I say with a grain of salt ... but just my two cents.
 
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The solution is BUSINESS school. Right out of undergrad, you can get a decent job that doesn't drain away your personal time. Don't expect 6 figures upfront. You gotta work for it. But you don't have the debt and years of sacrifice without a guaranteed yearly return.

I have friends with MBAs/Masters in Accounting etc, that can't get a job to save their ass right now. The market sucks, hardddd for business. My dad does executive sales for a nation wide corporation. Before the economy hit, he was bringing the company low 8 figures and was one of the top guys ... this year, he's worried about keeping his job. Business is going to suck for a while, even after the economy starts turning up a bit.
 
I don't know but it seems that general dentists are doing much better than primary care medicine.

The published salaries of general dentists is shown as greater than that of primary care doctors and the general dentists work, on average, about 32 hours a week. (published data and what general dentists have told me) Conversely, family medicine will be working many more hours, about 55 per week.

Finally, the general dentist doesn't have to do a residency and thus has more years of (higher) income than the family doctor. I know that the general dentist won't necessarily start out making 160,000/year but its a hell of a lot better (money/hour) than family medicine.

Dentists can open up offices and staff then with hygienists; they can do business as well.
But the question is of job satisfaction not of pay. I don't think I could be happy being a dentist. If pay is all you are concerned about that's fine, however, I'd like a job that I enjoy rather than just looking for cash
 
I don't know but it seems that general dentists are doing much better than primary care medicine.

The published salaries of general dentists is shown as greater than that of primary care doctors and the general dentists work, on average, about 32 hours a week. (published data and what general dentists have told me) Conversely, family medicine will be working many more hours, about 55 per week.

Finally, the general dentist doesn't have to do a residency and thus has more years of (higher) income than the family doctor. I know that the general dentist won't necessarily start out making 160,000/year but its a hell of a lot better (money/hour) than family medicine.

Dentists can open up offices and staff then with hygienists; they can do business as well.

No offense, but this kind of plays into my 'grass is always greener point.' Had a dental student posted this, I'd probably go eh, and leave the thread ... but because it's a medical student, I'm still inclined to stick with my guns. I mean, I get it ... start quicker, but lower, still a lot of opportunities, less hours worked, etc. I still think the saturation is much lower for FP guys, they do start out a lot higher, their debt is probably about the same considering how HIGH dental school is (60k at a few med schools I interviewed at that also had dent programs), residency is only 3 years, pay is better, more opportunities for the business minded individual, and more chances to go back and create a higher income with specializing, like IM fellowships, PC sports med, etc. I'm not going to argue that dental isn't a good option ... I just don't think it's universally better than medicine, nor do I think that many people would equally rank them and choose the path of least resistance, you know? Most people go into medicine because they really want to, or because it offers them something more than just an easy job.
 
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Dentistry is harder on the body. You have to spend hours and hours leaning over the chair, with your patient's bad breath. If you have a 30-year career, working on patients for 40 weeks per year for 20 hours per week, you will have spent 24,000 hours in that position! Also, people will hate to come and see you, be afraid of you, especially children. Most dentists are self-employed, so you will also probably have to have your own office, employees, administration, collections, etc. - Lots of headaches. With medicine, you could have your own office someday if you wish, but if not, there are salaried jobs at hospitals and other places like pharmaceutical companies where you wouldn't have the hassles and responsibility of running an office. You could also do medical research if you find you don't like dealing with patients. I've never heard of a dental researcher, but I guess there are probably a few out there.
 
Its about what you want to do. Some people want to be a dentist and some want to be a physician. Its not all about money and prestige, not for a lot of people at least.
 
Its about what you want to do. Some people want to be a dentist and some want to be a physician. Its not all about money and prestige, not for a lot of people at least.

Yeah, I agree. I've personally never seen the huge overlap between the two, ie: I would never apply both. I've always wanted to be a physician, don't want to be a dentist ... ya know? I mean, there are lots of obtainable, relatable fields out there that make good money, but it isn't what I 'want' to do.
 
The consensus among many seems to be that general dentistry offers a vastly superior lifestyle (and financial future) than primary care. I disagree with your statement that the pay is better for family practice, however. If they make roughly the same amount each year but the general practitioner works 50 hours versus 32 for the general dentist, the per hour rate of the dentist is higher. If the dentist so desired, he/she could just work more hours, assuming that there are enough patients.

I seriously entertained the idea of becoming a dentist but medicine seems more interesting. Hopefully it will have been the right choice...:p

Eh, primary care is a broad term. My neighbor is a Gyn surgeon who lives in a very nice house with very pretty cars and I know does well. Technically, she completed a residency in primary care ( I didn't mean strictly FP - if I did, I meant to say PC - which can still rival gen dent salaries in a lot of situations, and could rise up soon). I also still stick by the statement that there is a higher ceiling in medicine ... in your example, you said a general dentist works less and is paid the same, so technically they can work more (which kinda clashes with my point on saturation), but in this same vein, an IM guy can go back and do a fellowship in cards, GI, etc, and make 2x a much as a general dentist by 'working more.' Again, the grass is not always greener ...
 
Chino, I just wanted to post a little disclaimer here, since I feel like our discussion has no end in site, and I don't want to argue because:

1. We are both pre-meds and taking stabs at what life is like as an attending physician vs dentist is out of our leagues

2. I still do think dentistry is a good option, I really good option. However, I do feel like with all good things ... their time is coming (saturation, mid levels, etc)

3. There are pros and cons to both, but I do not think dentistry is universally a better option than medicine. Complicated issue.

4. I still think that all health professionals always think the other 'guy' has a sweeter deal and they are underpaid and over worked (grass is always greener). Just go into any health professional forum ... you'll see the patterns.

Anyway, rant over ... I just don't want this to drag over forever.
 
Hopefully we weren't arguing--I thought that it was academic discussion. :)

From a financial standpoint, dentistry has been said (many doctors have told me this and I believe the salaries support this) to offer more rewards. Dentistry should have more inherent business opportunities also...the thing is that even though a certain physician may make more money per year, if they are working twice the number of hours as the dentist then the per-hour rate is more favorable for the dentist.

However, I was told that if dentistry eventually suffers medicine's fate, then I would be stuck doing something that I'm not gung-ho for. Money isn't everything but I was just talking about the situation from a financial standpoint.

Business is where it's at, however.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jan/15/jp-morgan-bonuses-profits-rise

"JP Morgan's 24,654 investment bankers, including nearly 5,000 employees in London, will get an average of $379,000 each after the financial services group surfed a wave of recovery in global markets to notch up year-end profits of $11.7bn, more than double its earnings of $5.6bn during crisis-stricken 2008."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jan/17/goldman-sachs-81-per-cent-rise

But the JMP Securities analysts concluded that even though the proportion of pay and bonuses to revenues will fall at Goldman, "we still expect an 81% rise in compensation per employee in 2009 to $599,000 per head … although this remains 14% below peak 2007 compensation levels".

It should be noted that these employees won't have had to train for 7-11 years after college like physicians and wouldn't have suffered the heavy opportunity (both personal and financial) of medicine...salaries in business have a MUCH higher ceiling, too.
See that's the average bonus. You know how skewed the distribution is? The top exec's will take home millions and ten's of millions in bonuses while the lower guys on the totem pole will take less.

Also business isn't where its at the big thing about the medical field is Job security and mobility. When there are times when physicians will get laid off that allot rarer than working in the business world. I have allot of friends who worked on wall street and everyday they would tell me they were worried about keeping their jobs during the meltdown.


So while they may not have to train as much there is inherently less job security and stability. Plus I know not everyone down on wall street is responsible for it but I would hate to know that my job was to find ways to screw the american consumer out of their own money by selling the fraudulent mortgages or other securities.

To each their own but I'd rather contribute to the welfare of society rather than be looked upon as a parasite.
 
Hopefully we weren't arguing--I thought that it was academic discussion. :)

From a financial standpoint, dentistry has been said (many doctors have told me this and I believe the salaries support this) to offer more rewards. Dentistry should have more inherent business opportunities also...the thing is that even though a certain physician may make more money per year, if they are working twice the number of hours as the dentist then the per-hour rate is more favorable for the dentist.

However, I was told that if dentistry eventually suffers medicine's fate, then I would be stuck doing something that I'm not gung-ho for. Money isn't everything but I was just talking about the situation from a financial standpoint.

Business is where it's at, however.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jan/15/jp-morgan-bonuses-profits-rise

"JP Morgan's 24,654 investment bankers, including nearly 5,000 employees in London, will get an average of $379,000 each after the financial services group surfed a wave of recovery in global markets to notch up year-end profits of $11.7bn, more than double its earnings of $5.6bn during crisis-stricken 2008."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jan/17/goldman-sachs-81-per-cent-rise

But the JMP Securities analysts concluded that even though the proportion of pay and bonuses to revenues will fall at Goldman, "we still expect an 81% rise in compensation per employee in 2009 to $599,000 per head … although this remains 14% below peak 2007 compensation levels".

It should be noted that these employees won't have had to train for 7-11 years after college like physicians and wouldn't have suffered the heavy opportunity (both personal and financial) of medicine...salaries in business have a MUCH higher ceiling, too.

I definitely don't agree that the business opportunities in dentistry are better than medicine. I've heard of dentists opening a few (2) practices and kind of managing both (which don't, get me wrong ... is probably really nice money), but I've never heard of dentists consulting for insurance companies, working as hospital management, shooting up botox, opening up cash based urgent care/FP and stuffing the practice with NPs/PAs, and hell, I even shadowed a doc who went through residency with a guy who moved to LA right after and went into consulting for TV shows. I'm NOT saying dentists can't do a lot of that in some, respective, form, but I just don't think there is as much branching out potential as their is with an MD/DO.

Also, business is noooottt where it is at right now. Like Slevin said, it's a freaking roller coaster, and frankly, everybody up until about 2006 forgot that the American economy can suck and now, businesses/people in business are really struggling. People who were pulling in high 6 figure, bloated salaries are unemployed right now, and that's just the nature of the beast. Doctors aren't. Even if a guy in business was making 500k in 05 and a GP was making 200k ... that 500k guy is making 0k right now, dipping into his nest egg, and trying to find ways to crack back into it while that doc is chugging along and, if he/she so pleases, can dabble in the business world at their leisure.
 
Oh, and I didn't mean 'arguing' in a negative way :)
 
Law2Doc is right on (to a point).

Also consider that MANY people have been traumatized by dentists. Its really our only exposure to invasive medicine and its at such an early age..... I get queasy and jiuttery whenever I think about teeth falling out or being loose, I would die if I had to deal with that every day.
 
Law2Doc is right on (to a point).

Also consider that MANY people have been traumatized by dentists. Its really our only exposure to invasive medicine and its at such an early age..... I get queasy and jiuttery whenever I think about teeth falling out or being loose, I would die if I had to deal with that every day.

+1 ... when I was a little kid, loved the doctor. My GP/Peds was awesome. HATED the dentist, still do, always will. Hahahaha.
 
I definitely don't agree that the business opportunities in dentistry are better than medicine. I've heard of dentists opening a few (2) practices and kind of managing both (which don't, get me wrong ... is probably really nice money), but I've never heard of dentists consulting for insurance companies, working as hospital management, shooting up botox, opening up cash based urgent care/FP and stuffing the practice with NPs/PAs, and hell, I even shadowed a doc who went through residency with a guy who moved to LA right after and went into consulting for TV shows. I'm NOT saying dentists can't do a lot of that in some, respective, form, but I just don't think there is as much branching out potential as their is with an MD/DO.

There are dentists that do botox. And many dental offices operate on a FFS model and only do cash procedures. Hiring associates to do alot of the work puts the dentist in a managerial role, thus more $$.
 
There are dentists that do botox. And many dental offices operate on a FFS model and only do cash procedures. Hiring associates to do alot of the work puts the dentist in a managerial role, thus more $$.

I've heard it's hard to maintain a cash based dent office, and that most places mix a little bit of cosmetic in with general stuff, but not a significant amount (granted it is also hard to maintain a cash based, cosmetic med practice, but there are specialties that do it well - derm and prs - and I'd say it would be the equivalent of a FP learning procedures and trying to do all cosmetic, not impossible, but difficult, especially with competition). Maybe in beverly hills or something. Also, wow about dentists shooting up botox. I'm sure they could easily become qualified, but I really think most people would rather go to a physician. Like I said though, dentists can do just about everything I listed initially to some extent, but I still think the prospect are better for med to that regard.
 
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I've heard it's hard to maintain a cash based dent office, and that most places mix a little bit of cosmetic in with general stuff, but not a significant amount (granted it is also hard to maintain a cash based, cosmetic med practice, but there are specialties that do it well - derm and prs - and I'd say it would be the equivalent of a FP learning procedures and trying to do all cosmetic, not impossible, but difficult, especially with competition). Maybe in beverly hills or something. Also, wow about dentists shooting up botox. I'm sure they could easily become qualified, but I really think most people would rather go to a physician. Like I said though, dentists can do just about everything I listed initially to some extent, but I still think the prospect are better for med to that regard.

Maybe. But you quoted the two most competitive specialties as the only ones able to successfully sustain a FFS model. Yes, others can do it, but it's nowhere near common. And where are you hearing this info about dental practices? There are quite a few dental practices that operate as mainly or entirely FFS.
 
I've heard it's hard to maintain a cash based dent office, and that most places mix a little bit of cosmetic in with general stuff, but not a significant amount (granted it is also hard to maintain a cash based, cosmetic med practice, but there are specialties that do it well - derm and prs - and I'd say it would be the equivalent of a FP learning procedures and trying to do all cosmetic, not impossible, but difficult, especially with competition). Maybe in beverly hills or something. Also, wow about dentists shooting up botox. I'm sure they could easily become qualified, but I really think most people would rather go to a physician. Like I said though, dentists can do just about everything I listed initially to some extent, but I still think the prospect are better for med to that regard.

I know someone that does cash based dentistry and does VERY VERY well. Practice grossed >1 million last year. No insurance taken, but you're welcome to file it yourself and try to get reimbursed, of course.

They do some cosmetics, but not alot, certainly no botox...maybe some bleaching trays here and there, but most of the work is restorative. CEREC. 3 docs. LOTS of hygienists (this is key!). They do some Sedation Dentistry. They do VERY well.
 
I know someone that does cash based dentistry and does VERY VERY well. Practice grossed >1 million last year. No insurance taken, but you're welcome to file it yourself and try to get reimbursed, of course.

They do some cosmetics, but not alot, certainly no botox...maybe some bleaching trays here and there, but most of the work is restorative. CEREC. 3 docs. LOTS of hygienists (this is key!). They do some Sedation Dentistry. They do VERY well.

1 mill gross * how much overhead with expensive cosmetic equipment, 'lots of hygienists,' 3 docs, advertisement, rent, etc. Tons of docs clear over a million gross in practice ... that isn't what they take home. Also, you'd be HARD pressed to find a successful cosmetic doc that doesn't take in 1 million gross. Listen, there are great opportunities in both, my thesis the entire time (it shocks me how much people will argue a point to absolute death on these forums) has been:

There are great opportunities in both medicine and dentistry, but, contrary to the thread title, dentistry is not universally 'better' than medicine. Most health professionals have the opinion that the grass is always greener for their counterparts, but this is not always the case. A lot of people choose medicine over dentistry because they want to go into medicine. Not many weigh the two as something they are equally enthralled with, and choose the path with the easiest lifestyle. However, anecdotal evidence aside, I feel like the ceiling and branching ability is higher in medicine.

There, I'm done ... I seriously cannot take this anal retentive nit-picking anymore.
 
Because despite the relative "ease" of dental school/dentistry, most of us cannot imagine having our hands in other peoples' mouths for the next 20-30 years. Teeth, to me, aren't that interesting.

Especially having to constantly talk and make conservation to the patient while your hand is stuck in their mouth, and they respond with a slobber of "ARGH, EEEEEK, HURRRTS."

It's no wonder dentists have a high suicide rate.
 
1 mill gross * how much overhead with expensive cosmetic equipment, 'lots of hygienists,' 3 docs, advertisement, rent, etc. Tons of docs clear over a million gross in practice ... that isn't what they take home. Also, you'd be HARD pressed to find a successful cosmetic doc that doesn't take in 1 million gross. Listen, there are great opportunities in both, my thesis the entire time (it shocks me how much people will argue a point to absolute death on these forums) has been:

There are great opportunities in both medicine and dentistry, but, contrary to the thread title, dentistry is not universally 'better' than medicine. Most health professionals have the opinion that the grass is always greener for their counterparts, but this is not always the case. A lot of people choose medicine over dentistry because they want to go into medicine. Not many weigh the two as something they are equally enthralled with, and choose the path with the easiest lifestyle. However, anecdotal evidence aside, I feel like the ceiling and branching ability is higher in medicine.

There, I'm done ... I seriously cannot take this anal retentive nit-picking anymore.

lol...I'm sorry. I'm sick and not really with it. I mean net. My bad. They seriously made BANK last year.
 
lol...I'm sorry. I'm sick and not really with it. I mean net. My bad. They seriously made BANK last year.

Net income =
Revenue – Cost of goods sold – Sales discounts – Sales returns and allowances – Expenses – Minority interest – Preferred stock dividends

So if this 1 mill is then divided by 3 docs which I assume have an equal interest ... 333k ?? Ehh. Even if it isn't, the main doctor is probably paying the two other base salaries plus production bonuses, so they make out with 200k each, so that is 600k to this doc? Good ... but not out of this world. This also isn't taking into account the time, cost, headaches, etc, it took to build up this practice and client base. Again, nothing you couldn't do in medicine.
 
I respect dentists, but personally find teeth pretty boring. I like bones/joints.
 
Business is where it's at, however.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jan/15/jp-morgan-bonuses-profits-rise

"JP Morgan's 24,654 investment bankers, including nearly 5,000 employees in London, will get an average of $379,000 each after the financial services group surfed a wave of recovery in global markets to notch up year-end profits of $11.7bn, more than double its earnings of $5.6bn during crisis-stricken 2008."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jan/17/goldman-sachs-81-per-cent-rise

But the JMP Securities analysts concluded that even though the proportion of pay and bonuses to revenues will fall at Goldman, "we still expect an 81% rise in compensation per employee in 2009 to $599,000 per head … although this remains 14% below peak 2007 compensation levels".

It should be noted that these employees won't have had to train for 7-11 years after college like physicians and wouldn't have suffered the heavy opportunity (both personal and financial) of medicine...salaries in business have a MUCH higher ceiling, too.

You're kidding me. There are 700,000 physicians in the US. There are just 5 big investment banks now: Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan, Bank of America, Morgan Stanley and Citigroup.

How many investment bankers of those 5 firms are there in the US? (max 70,000, remember these are global banks)

Of those how many are managing directors and executives who make millions and skew your average? (1-10%)

What is the average turnover rate for investment banking analysts? (give you a hint: it's under 3 years).

And it's not easy landing an entry-level ibanking job at one of those big firms. The application selectivity is something like 1 out of 400 (much lower than medical school). You need near 4.0 GPA from top tier schools and amazing people skills, or some ass kicking connections. Once you get in the door, you still only have just a 10% shot at getting an associate position.

Medicine is a long process, but it's still pretty lucrative: you can find a job anywhere in the country (not chained to high-cost NYC or Chicago) and the risk of career failure once you're admitted to medical school is significantly less than in the business world. Opportunity cost is money, but so is risk. And if you're somewhat of a risk-averse person, then medicine would easily trump business in your decision-making.
 
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There is some risk in getting those top positions. However, do you have experience in business?
Yes, and it's not the rainbows and unicorns you make it out to be.

chinocochino said:
1. I can't find the link on the internet (US News and World Report doesn't list it online but I have the print copy) but just look at the top 50 business school in the US. The average starting salary (yes, average is not the same as median. :rolleyes:) is above 120,000 for many of those MBA schools and the entering GPA for many of those top schools is 3.3. The University of Michigan Business School (my college) has a matriculant GPA average of 3.3.
Most MBAs aren't going to be GS/JPM investment bankers, but accountants, consultants and managers. We were talking about GS/JPM investment bankers and their average $400,000 salary, remember? Secondly, while the average starting salary after getting a top 20 MBA might be $120,000, do you know what their salary was before they went to business school? It's not much lower, probably 40% at most. The average age of MBA students is 28-29 (5 years older than med students), so people who have been working for 6-7 years (starting at $40-50k) and have received steady promotions. The key point here is that you might not ever reach that point in the business world, you could very well be stuck at a $50k tax consultant job with 3% raises for another 20 years. Office politics comes into play heavily here.

Also that $120k average applies only to the top business schools, while in medicine an orthopedic surgeon from State U has equal earning potential as an orthopedic surgeon from Penn. Medicine is far more meritocratic in that aspect, which again appeals to those who are hard workers but somewhat risk averse.

The point is that for every 20-something you know who makes $300k a year in business, there are at least ten 20-somethings from the same college and major making just $50k. If you thought medical school admissions was a crapshoot, wait until you apply for a business job or try to get promoted.
 
I don't even understand how someone can argue that business is a good thing to get into right now???
 
Interesting that you use the term "right mind" when the right reason for going into healthcare is to care for the health of patients, not your wallet. You contradict your own question with the points you bring up. Both fields are essential to the health of a human being, the choice should depend on one's interests and strengths.
Exorbitant profiting in healthcare is really revolting, tbh.
 
To justify my statement, I'm the patient financial advocate at a major metro hospital who works with every single uninsured patient that comes through our doors. Try 8 hours a day of seeing the reality of patients being turned away from doctors' offices who won't accept medicaid or insurances that pay at low % for the sake of their wallets. I know one of these doctors and how much he grosses.
And even at the hospital, patients being billed $1000 for a $100 procedure because insurance contracts allow insurance to pay at only 20%. To make a profit, the hospital jacks up its prices to be able to bill at $1000...which is what then they bill the uninsured patient.
Example: ER pregnancy test, $200.
There is reasonable profit, and then there is exorbitant profit. I hope you don't intend to fall in the latter category. It's destructive to the field.
 
If you choose a career because it's easy, or the path of least resistance, you can expect to by miserable. You didn't choose such a path, you fell into it. Sometimes this ends up being a good match, most of the time not. A satisfying career is one that challenges you, one where you actually get some job satisfaction. Not one which pays the bills. If you weren't all that bright, and couldn't do well in college, or maybe even go to college, and thereafter simply went to the best paying job you could get, stocking shelves or whatever, then sure, you could be happy that you were getting a nice paycheck and living for the weekends, because you didn't really have a choice. Folks who are choosing amongst professions have a choice. For them it's not adequate to get a paycheck and live for the weekends, or at least shouldn't be. When you have no choice you take the best you can get. When you have a choice it's not acceptable to pick a field that is easy but where you basically dread going to work each morning and live for the weekends. You are obligated to find something that satisfies you and if it doesn't, then you need to change things up. (Which is why you see so many career changers on this board switching from other professional fields to medicine -- we have a choice, we aren't simply serving out our life sentence).
So if you like dentistry, then great. But don't do it because it's easier and because you can make decent money without working up a sweat. Most of us had easier paths we opted not to follow, and for good reason. A few years down the road, you will probably realize how much more important it is to be happy doing what you are doing than being well paid for what you are doing. You are spending most of your waking hours doing a professional job, so you'd better like it -- there is no paycheck that gets you back your life again.

Thank you for opening my eyes towards medicine... i was thinking dentistry over medicine due to better payment, and better lifestyle....
I feel foolish and immature for thinking of choosing a path that is easier... i will get back on my feet and head towards medicine which i wanted to do in the first place!
 
Dental school is hard. They basically shove all of the science that med students have to learn into the first two years, and your last two years of dental school are like a residency. In case no one ever told you, the mouth IS CONNECTED TO THE REST OF THE BODY ( and so are the teeth as well). Wow, who would have ever thought?
 
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