will we always be considered lower than "real" doctors?

[NyCzPeter]

This is just wrong. If a patient is requesting 600 Motrin post op following 3rd molar removal and his meds includes warfarin, I'm thinking about his cardiovascular system mostly and running down his medhx in my mind including PMH, SH, Allergies, meds ect... this includes more than one organ. He's a person. Again remember I said we are "people treating people" not DOCTORS treating MULTIPLE ORGAN SYSTEMS. Again, I'm not thinking about his integumentary system. This is NO different from medicine. If I CC with "I think my BP is high" and my primary care doc takes my BP and its high, he looks at my past readings, PMH, FH, SH drugs, current status, allergies, age and then writes for a HCTZ. Period. "see you for a f/u" He's not thinking about my my trigeminal ganglia as he's writing this. More than that he probably has 4 minutes to dx, rx and thank me for coming because his next 3 patients are in tx rooms having their BP taken.

Dentists treat people just like physicians treat people. You don't seem to get this important point yet cause you're getting hung up on this "cock" thing that only exists in academia and on SDN. In the real world, we work together and are glad to have one another to help our patients. Keep this attitude up throughout dental school and not only will you be on your way to insecure dentist status but you'll be a bad dentist and only cause you are focusing on what others are doing instead of your job.

Very well put

How can he claim to be a dental student and not understand that dentistry is closely related to other organ systems like any other medical specialty? Seems like deep down, dentstd wishes he had gone to medical school.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[TheWiredNerv]

Let me sum of dentists vs doctors now...

When a parking spot says Doctor's Parking, we park in it.
Doctors get "physician" parking a bit further back...

 

[DrNush]

lot of angry, aggressive people on SDN. the anonymity of the internet is a great way to spew off ur frustrations and insult people behind the safety of a computer isn't it?
whatevzz.

 

[Black Surgeon]

They don't. Go talk to an emergency physician and ask what fraction of his/her patients are truly acutely sick.

I have been working in the ER of a level 1 trauma hospital for almost two years now. From what I've seen, ER physicians do see the majority of their patients way after the onset of illness. With the 47 million Americans who lack Health insurance now a days, preventive Medicine disappears when you have to choose between getting a bearable pain checked out before it exacerbates or being unable to make the mortgage payment.

Of course there are always patients who use the hospital as a homeless shelter and come in requesting their weekly meals, blankets and a warm bed for that reoccuring stomachache or headache which never seems to subside. This is very common in underserved areas and it may be what aphistis is referring to.

I agree with Denstd that the majority of US GRADS (and the note worthy words here are US and GRADs) do get to go into specialties, although I don't think the percentage is as high as 98-95%, it is still pretty high up there. The match rates I have seen for US GRADS have been in the 90th percentiles and around the 50th percentiles for IMGs.

The dentists that I know are doctors, and are considered doctors by main stream. I have never heard anyone refer to any dentist (or my dentist for that matter) as anything other than 'Doctor X'. The OP seems to be missing the fact that dentists are pretty high up there on the prestige latter.

 

[DrNush]

The OP seems to be missing the fact that dentists are pretty high up there on the prestige latter.

actually, the OP was asking a question - namely, if anyone else had faced this. apparently questions can no longer be asked on SDN without retaliation from little boys with big egos.

 

[dentstd]

This is just wrong. If a patient is requesting 600 Motrin post op following 3rd molar removal and his meds includes warfarin, I'm thinking about his cardiovascular system mostly and running down his medhx in my mind including PMH, SH, Allergies, meds ect... this includes more than one organ. He's a person. Again remember I said we are "people treating people" not DOCTORS treating MULTIPLE ORGAN SYSTEMS. Again, I'm not thinking about his integumentary system. This is NO different from medicine. If I CC with "I think my BP is high" and my primary care doc takes my BP and its high, he looks at my past readings, PMH, FH, SH drugs, current status, allergies, age and then writes for a HCTZ. Period. "see you for a f/u" He's not thinking about my my trigeminal ganglia as he's writing this. More than that he probably has 4 minutes to dx, rx and thank me for coming because his next 3 patients are in tx rooms having their BP taken.

Dentists treat people just like physicians treat people. You don't seem to get this important point yet cause you're getting hung up on this "cock" thing that only exists in academia and on SDN. In the real world, we work together and are glad to have one another to help our patients. Keep this attitude up throughout dental school and not only will you be on your way to insecure dentist status but you'll be a bad dentist and only cause you are focusing on what others are doing instead of your job.

Ok, misread much? I'm not talking about the content of the programs but the specificity of the various programs themselves. In medicine, they're much more specific. Their specialty programs tend to be divided based on organs, age of the patient, and disease patterns.

Everyone treats the whole patient, but the doctors specialize on liver, heart, lungs, kidney, etc etc etc.

 

[dentstd]

They don't. Go talk to an emergency physician and ask what fraction of his/her patients are truly acutely sick.

So by "sick" you mean acute inflammation and malaise?

 

[Pikeyman]

"will we always be considered lower than "real" doctors?"

If you are that insecure, get out of the profession.

 

[DCRedskinsRule]

"will we always be considered lower than "real" doctors?"

If you are that insecure, get out of the profession.

Way too many hormonal egos on this thread. thumbdown

Back to the OP's ?. For those who are exposed to dentistry and know what it's about, dentistry is GENERALLY CONSIDERED like any other specialty of medicine...like an internist, nephrologist, hepatologist, etc. (lets see how many God-Complex SDN'ers roast me for that...)

But for many of the people who are not truly exposed to the current form of dentistry, ie it being more than just a place to get teeth cleaned or treat a mild tooth ache, then yes, it is somewhat considered to be on a lower rung of the prestige ladder.

From what I understand (Egos, insert insult here) dentistry was perceived to be more of a trade/craft like a blacksmith than a medical profession like a nuerosurgeon or cardiologist. But now, it's obviously that oral health has a very close relationship to systemic health, so the "Doctor" part of DDS (or DMD) is becoming more relevant each day. Basically, the perception is shifting more towards it being a "speciality (or at least part) of medicine" instead of an "alternative" to medicine.

Finally, in terms of medical school vs. dental school. From what I gather at the state school level, dental school has MUCH MORE volume in terms of work load and amount of material, but the MD kids get more depth and are held to a higher level of understanding of the little nuances involved with individual processes. Oh, and anyone who wants to argue that the NBDE is as difficult as the USMLE is just an idiot. (insert roast #3 here).

Just my $0.02

 

[DCRedskinsRule]

so what are you trying to say? you wish you had gone into medicine dentsd?

I'll be sure to email the journalist that she made a mistake about medical terminology. But no, I've already gone into medicine. I'm a non-trad. A 4 year oral surgery program's all I'll be missing after dental school.

Stupidest comment I've ever heard. If nothing else, this is why some MD's look down upon DDS/DMD's....everyone is so D*MN sensitive....

Oh, and I feel bad for ya dentstd. You're getting torched for no major reason. I agree with them arguing that you should've been a little more careful with those numbers that you presented....but 30 posts ripping you apart? Seriously? These people need a hobby... Your point is well taken.

 

[scottd]

The average US medical student will end up making 100-150k/yr more than the average dental student. And the highest paying medical specialties will pay much, much more than the highest paying dental specialties...while oral surgeons may make in the 300's, the neurosurgeons, plastic surgeons, and cardiologists'll make 500-700.

These numbers are off. For 2009, oral surgeons now average above $400k after adjusting for inflation and based on 2003 data. Neurosurgeons, plastic surgeons and cardiologists average between $350-450k. These numbers are from the most credible sources - the ADA and AMA respectively (not "Allied Physicians", etc.). But for the amount of hours put in, oral surgeons definitely take the cake, earning 1.5-2x more hourly than the above specalties. I agree with the other above poster - we have better hourly salaries, let the MD's have their prestige. They certainly work for it. I envy what a heart surgeon can do. But I'd rather not be one. We can do other respectable things with our free time. Just be more creative.

 

[Californian]

who cares? Dentist and physicans are both "real" doctors. THE END.

 

[mrlantern]

These numbers are off. For 2009, oral surgeons now average above $400k after adjusting for inflation and based on 2003 data. Neurosurgeons, plastic surgeons and cardiologists average between $350-450k. These numbers are from the most credible sources - the ADA and AMA respectively (not "Allied Physicians", etc.). But for the amount of hours put in, oral surgeons definitely take the cake, earning 1.5-2x more hourly than the above specalties. I agree with the other above poster - we have better hourly salaries, let the MD's have their prestige. They certainly work for it. I envy what a heart surgeon can do. But I'd rather not be one. We can do other respectable things with our free time. Just be more creative.

Who are "we" ? Oral surgeons or dentists as a whole?

And have any of you guys checked the SDN forums of medical residents? They always talk of jobs that offer 200k-400k/yr for new physicians. ( this is well above the average of salaries of dentists ) Go to their forums and look up what they talk about in salaries. It's a complete contrast to what's being said by dental students here.

 

[MichaelVicksDog]

who cares? Dentist and physicans are both "real" doctors. THE END.

So are phd's and pharmd's but the general public won't call them doctors. The general public considers physicians and surgeons as doctors, dentists are dentists. Don't get it twisted.

 

[DCRedskinsRule]

So are phd's and pharmd's but the general public won't call them doctors. The general public considers physicians and surgeons as doctors, dentists are dentists. Don't get it twisted.

You don't call your PhD's doctors? I sure as hell do. The ONLY "doctors" that I do not refer to as a Dr. are lawyers...

 

[scottd]

Who are "we" ? Oral surgeons or dentists as a whole?

And have any of you guys checked the SDN forums of medical residents? They always talk of jobs that offer 200k-400k/yr for new physicians. ( this is well above the average of salaries of dentists ) Go to their forums and look up what they talk about in salaries. It's a complete contrast to what's being said by dental students here.

This isn't exactly disputing what I wrote. Dentists claim 4 of the top 5 and 6 of the top 10 medical professions based on highest hourly pay given the ADA and AMA salary data. Dentists have the lifestyle, MD's have the prestige. Fine with me.

And by the way, yes, 200-400k/yr real jobs for brand new dental specialists are talked about routinely in the dental resident forums. Ortho, OMFS, Pedo. The difference is that these doctors are working only 32-36 hours per week while their medical counterparts are working 50-65 to maintain the same salary. And also be sure not to mistake job classifieds and real jobs. The classified salaries are always inflated.

 

[prydA]

BS. Naturopathic medical schools aka DeVry university equivalent of medical schools claim to have the same curriculum if not broader than allopathic medical schools. Get outta here with that mess. You know damn well how much more material and more in depth med schools kids have to go through. I dare you to go take the USMLE. And it doesn't matter if you got into both dental and medical schools; dental schools have lower stats than medical schools and that's just the way it is.

But dogg, this is REAL TALK. You're being mad selfish complaining about this. Like that's real selfish ****. You gonna avoid being a slave for 3 years, work 30 hours a week, not be controlled by HMO's, and make as much money as physicians. That's not enough for you so now you want the prestige and the respect too? Come on. I feel bad for those miserable MD's, let them have the bragging rights.

didn't know we got OGs on SDN

 

[DrNush]

Way too many hormonal egos on this thread. thumbdown

i completely agree with you, u may actually be one of the most intelligent people on SDN...

 

[DrNush]

didn't know we got OGs on SDN

hey btw prydA whats an OG? sorry if it's somethin obvious lol....

 

[La fea]

hey btw prydA whats an OG? sorry if it's somethin obvious lol....

Original Gangsta (I think)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=OG
Hope that helps

 

[Pikeyman]

lol @ you mr. "macho" - true sign of insecurity is being a jerk. let's see u in real life tough guy
i have a right to be in any profession i want to and ask any question i want to. welcome to democracy.



i completely agree with you, u may actually be one of the most intelligent people on SDN...

Yes, that's it.

 

[DrNush]

Yes, that's it.

lol ok that post wasn't to you and you know it. u may be a genius for all i know.. i've never met u so fortunately i'm not judgemental of you the way you are of me
*sigh* truce.

 

[hotinwoof]

ok so this is gonna be a pretty long post... i'm a part of a community where half the people are medical docs. and of course anytime we go to any of those community get-togethers or whatever, the physician parents of current med students are full of themselves acting like their kids are the shiz, and i happen to be the only dental student (out of CHOICE).

i'm getting more and more incensed as time goes on that whenever some medical issue comes up, everyone turns to the docs and then someone will decide to make a crack at me like "haha if we have any tooth problems we'll come to you." what's up with that?

i used to think dentists have the same prestige as physicians, but now i feel we're considered "lower." no one seems to realize that we study the same subjects in the first 2 years - prob not to the same extent as in med school, but nevertheless the same subjects. and we're not second tier.. i got into both dental and medical, chose dental. but before anyone says anything, i realize that this may just be an issue in this specific community... 99% of physicians i've met are AWESOME.

i've actually never understood why dentistry is not just a residency after med school... just like dermatology etc..
has anyone else faced this kinda behavior or is it just me?

P.S.!!! i am editing this based on the responses to inform everyone that this is something i have experienced, and ask if i am alone in experiencing it, NOT to show disrespect or start world war III. so if u have any nasty comments and names rather than solid answers, please don't post here. thanks a bunch!

No offense man but it looks like you just need to mature a little bit more and then you won't see such divisions anymore. I used to think along the same lines. So all my friends are MDs and my family has uh 4. 1 anesthesia, 2 internists, and 1 emergency.

After I got older and worked in puny government jobs next to the mighty MDs in my family. I realized that dentistry wasnt so bad. It's quieter and more relaxed. You make the same as an internist without the stress. Oh by the way, my grandpa taught dentistry for over 30 years. Dont tell him that dentistry is a lower stature field. But to me, DDS is easier than a MD. Anyone who has taken the MCAT versus the DAT alone can see that there is a big difference between the two.

Even in the MD field, they have their own hierarchy. For example, the cardiologists versus emergency versus internists, etc. The low rung being the internist of course.

But in the end, who gives a damn. There is always someone smarter than you. You will make a comfortable living as either or. You can make 250k in California as a MD specialist and after taxes, come even with the general DDS in Arizona.

 

[Californian]

So are phd's and pharmd's but the general public won't call them doctors. The general public considers physicians and surgeons as doctors, dentists are dentists. Don't get it twisted.

In general public physicians are doctor but dentist has a right to call them selves Doctor.

 

[takle]

In general public physicians are doctor but dentist has a right to call them selves Doctor.

I've never thought much about this until I read an article a few weeks ago about an ad in the UK that was challenged because it used the Dr. title for a dentist. The decision was that the Dr. title could not be used in the context of the ad. I've started to wonder how universally and unconditionally accepted the Dr. title is for dentists.

Here's the article:

http://www.dentistry.co.uk/news/news_detail.php?id=1727

 

[scottd]

I've never thought much about this until I read an article a few weeks ago about an ad in the UK that was challenged because it used the Dr. title for a dentist. The decision was that the Dr. title could not be used in the context of the ad. I've started to wonder how universally and unconditionally accepted the Dr. title is for dentists.

Here's the article:

http://www.dentistry.co.uk/news/news_detail.php?id=1727

Actually, in the UK, dentists receive a Bachelor of Dental Surgery (BDS). So a dentist advertising himself as Dr. is false advertising. Doctors in the UK are referred to as Dr. while surgeons in the UK are referred to as Mr. (same as a dentist). Due to surgeons being referred to as Mr., Mr. is usually considered higher status than is Dr. in the medical context. In regard to this specific situation, many people are wondering why the dentist would "lower" his status by advertising himself as a Dr. instead of a Mr. (Surgeon). It's a strange system they have there.

 

[aphistis]

So by "sick" you mean acute inflammation and malaise?

As opposed to "CC: 'I need my blood pressure medicine and percocet refilled'"?

 

[DrNush]

No offense man but it looks like you just need to mature a little bit more and then you won't see such divisions anymore. I used to think along the same lines.

none taken... and thanks for admitting that it actually helps

 

[mrlantern]

This isn't exactly disputing what I wrote. Dentists claim 4 of the top 5 and 6 of the top 10 medical professions based on highest hourly pay given the ADA and AMA salary data. Dentists have the lifestyle, MD's have the prestige. Fine with me.

And by the way, yes, 200-400k/yr real jobs for brand new dental specialists are talked about routinely in the dental resident forums. Ortho, OMFS, Pedo. The difference is that these doctors are working only 32-36 hours per week while their medical counterparts are working 50-65 to maintain the same salary. And also be sure not to mistake job classifieds and real jobs. The classified salaries are always inflated.

First of all, unlike medical specialists, dental specialists are around < 5% of all dentists in total. ( I don't know the exact percentage but we all agree that it's a very small portion compared to medical specialists. And remember, US med grads can specialize almost at will, leaving most primary care spots to foreign doctors )

So it's almost pointless to mention that dental specialists can make $200k/yr or higher because they don't represent a good percentage of dentists.

And I find it suspicious that no one is mentioning the salaries of general dentists amidst the talk of uncommon dental specialists who are likely to break the $200k/yr barrier.

 

[ingemar]

Let me sum of dentists vs doctors now...

When a parking spot says Doctor's Parking, we park in it.
Doctors get "physician" parking a bit further back...

Yea right. You're taking the bus from South P lot with rest of us...

 

[scottd]

First of all, unlike medical specialists, dental specialists are around < 5% of all dentists in total. ( I don't know the exact percentage but we all agree that it's a very small portion compared to medical specialists. And remember, US med grads can specialize almost at will, leaving most primary care spots to foreign doctors )

So it's almost pointless to mention that dental specialists can make $200k/yr or higher because they don't represent a good percentage of dentists.

And I find it suspicious that no one is mentioning the salaries of general dentists amidst the talk of uncommon dental specialists who are likely to break the $200k/yr barrier.

You're way off base here. First of all, there are around 4,000 new entering dental students and around 1,100 filled residency seats every year (Ortho ~240, OMFS ~200, Endo ~184, Perio ~155, Pedo ~205, Prostho ~126). This would put the specialization rate at around 27%.

If the OP is anything like me, he could have gone to medical school but chose not to. There are just too many advantages to dentistry. You see medical school classmates fighting over one other for the top "lifestyle" spots - ROAD - or you could say PE-ROAD (Path, EM, Rad, Opth, Anes and Derm), but even general dentistry offers a better lifestyle compared to many of these professions due to schedule flexibility. And if you're talking dental specialists, well just look at the chart below.

However, if you want to compare medical school to dental school and take the specialty residencies out of comparison, dentistry has a HUGE advantage due to the fact that it requires no 3-5 year long residency. To me, it only makes sense to add in the specialist residencies if you want to conduct a more fair comparison.

Here's where dental specialists and general dentists stand compared to their medical counterparts:

1. Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon 336/36 = $179.5/hr
2. Endodontist 303.9/36 = $162.4/hr
3. Pedodontiac Dentist 294.4/36 = $157.1/hr
4. Orthodontist 279.4/36 = $149.0/hr
5. Orthopedic Surgeon 335.8/54.1 = $119.4/hr

6. Periodontist 216.4/36 = $115.4/hr
7. Pathologist 246.5/41.6 = $114.0/hr
8. Rad (Diag)/Rad Onc 327.7/58.5 = $107.7/hr
9. Prosthodontist 190.9/36 = $102.0/hr
10. Opthalomologist 229.2/43.7 = $100.9/hr

11. Dermatologist 219.5/42 = $100.5/hr
12. EM 220/45 = $94.0/hr
13. General Dentist 173.1/36 = $92.4/hr
14. Neurosurgery / Plastic Surgery 275.2/59.6 = $88.8/hr
15. Urologist 264.5/57.4 = $88.6/hr

16. Surgeon (gen) 263.7/58.2 = $87.1/hr
17. Anesthesiologist 244.7/58.7 = $80.2/hr
18. ENT 214.5/52.1 = $79.2/hr
19. OB/GYN 227/55.7 = $78.4/hr
20. Neurologist 183.1/53.7 = $65.6/hr

21. Psychiatrist 145.7/44 = $63.7/hr
22. IM 164.1/55.6 = $56.8/hr
23. FP 146.5/50.7 = $55.6/hr
24. Pediatrician 137.8/49.4 = $53.6/hr

http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/publications_newreports.asp#income
Survey of Dental Practice. c. 2003 Edition, American Dental Association

http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc...pec/byspec.html
Physician Socioeconomic Statistics. c. 2003 Edition, American Medical Association

This data is from 2003, however, so multiply everything by around 1.2. So, yes, if people like myself find that they enjoy dentistry, then the lifestyle makes it a no-brainer. Way too many advantages compared to medicine.

 

[MichaelVicksDog]

You're way off base here. First of all, there are around 4,000 new entering dental students and around 1,100 filled residency seats every year (Ortho ~240, OMFS ~200, Endo ~184, Perio ~155, Pedo ~205, Prostho ~126). This would put the specialization rate at around 27%.

If the OP is anything like me, he could have gone to medical school but chose not to. There are just too many advantages to dentistry. You see medical school classmates fighting over one other for the top "lifestyle" spots - ROAD - or you could say PE-ROAD (Path, EM, Rad, Opth, Anes and Derm), but even general dentistry offers a better lifestyle compared to many of these professions due to schedule flexibility. And if you're talking dental specialists, well just look at the chart below.

However, if you want to compare medical school to dental school and take the specialty residencies out of comparison, dentistry has a HUGE advantage due to the fact that it requires no 3-5 year long residency. To me, it only makes sense to add in the specialist residencies if you want to conduct a more fair comparison.

Here's where dental specialists and general dentists stand compared to their medical counterparts:

1. Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon 336/36 = $179.5/hr
2. Endodontist 303.9/36 = $162.4/hr
3. Pedodontiac Dentist 294.4/36 = $157.1/hr
4. Orthodontist 279.4/36 = $149.0/hr
5. Orthopedic Surgeon 335.8/54.1 = $119.4/hr

6. Periodontist 216.4/36 = $115.4/hr
7. Pathologist 246.5/41.6 = $114.0/hr
8. Rad (Diag)/Rad Onc 327.7/58.5 = $107.7/hr
9. Prosthodontist 190.9/36 = $102.0/hr
10. Opthalomologist 229.2/43.7 = $100.9/hr

11. Dermatologist 219.5/42 = $100.5/hr
12. EM 220/45 = $94.0/hr
13. General Dentist 173.1/36 = $92.4/hr
14. Neurosurgery / Plastic Surgery 275.2/59.6 = $88.8/hr
15. Urologist 264.5/57.4 = $88.6/hr

16. Surgeon (gen) 263.7/58.2 = $87.1/hr
17. Anesthesiologist 244.7/58.7 = $80.2/hr
18. ENT 214.5/52.1 = $79.2/hr
19. OB/GYN 227/55.7 = $78.4/hr
20. Neurologist 183.1/53.7 = $65.6/hr

21. Psychiatrist 145.7/44 = $63.7/hr
22. IM 164.1/55.6 = $56.8/hr
23. FP 146.5/50.7 = $55.6/hr
24. Pediatrician 137.8/49.4 = $53.6/hr

http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/publications_newreports.asp#income
Survey of Dental Practice. c. 2003 Edition, American Dental Association

http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc...pec/byspec.html
Physician Socioeconomic Statistics. c. 2003 Edition, American Medical Association

This data is from 2003, however, so multiply everything by around 1.2. So, yes, if people like myself find that they enjoy dentistry, then the lifestyle makes it a no-brainer. Way too many advantages compared to medicine.

Daaaamn my dude came in and just SHUT THIS DOWN. Bibliography and everything lol.

Conclusion? Stop complaining you greedy jerks. Dentists get all of those positives compare to physicians and surgeons. Let the poor MD's have their prestige, that's the only thing they got left. You guys are just greedy.

 

[NyCzPeter]

You're way off base here. First of all, there are around 4,000 new entering dental students and around 1,100 filled residency seats every year (Ortho ~240, OMFS ~200, Endo ~184, Perio ~155, Pedo ~205, Prostho ~126). This would put the specialization rate at around 27%.

If the OP is anything like me, he could have gone to medical school but chose not to. There are just too many advantages to dentistry. You see medical school classmates fighting over one other for the top "lifestyle" spots - ROAD - or you could say PE-ROAD (Path, EM, Rad, Opth, Anes and Derm), but even general dentistry offers a better lifestyle compared to many of these professions due to schedule flexibility. And if you're talking dental specialists, well just look at the chart below.

However, if you want to compare medical school to dental school and take the specialty residencies out of comparison, dentistry has a HUGE advantage due to the fact that it requires no 3-5 year long residency. To me, it only makes sense to add in the specialist residencies if you want to conduct a more fair comparison.

Here's where dental specialists and general dentists stand compared to their medical counterparts:

1. Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon 336/36 = $179.5/hr
2. Endodontist 303.9/36 = $162.4/hr
3. Pedodontiac Dentist 294.4/36 = $157.1/hr
4. Orthodontist 279.4/36 = $149.0/hr
5. Orthopedic Surgeon 335.8/54.1 = $119.4/hr

6. Periodontist 216.4/36 = $115.4/hr
7. Pathologist 246.5/41.6 = $114.0/hr
8. Rad (Diag)/Rad Onc 327.7/58.5 = $107.7/hr
9. Prosthodontist 190.9/36 = $102.0/hr
10. Opthalomologist 229.2/43.7 = $100.9/hr

11. Dermatologist 219.5/42 = $100.5/hr
12. EM 220/45 = $94.0/hr
13. General Dentist 173.1/36 = $92.4/hr
14. Neurosurgery / Plastic Surgery 275.2/59.6 = $88.8/hr
15. Urologist 264.5/57.4 = $88.6/hr

16. Surgeon (gen) 263.7/58.2 = $87.1/hr
17. Anesthesiologist 244.7/58.7 = $80.2/hr
18. ENT 214.5/52.1 = $79.2/hr
19. OB/GYN 227/55.7 = $78.4/hr
20. Neurologist 183.1/53.7 = $65.6/hr

21. Psychiatrist 145.7/44 = $63.7/hr
22. IM 164.1/55.6 = $56.8/hr
23. FP 146.5/50.7 = $55.6/hr
24. Pediatrician 137.8/49.4 = $53.6/hr

http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/publications_newreports.asp#income
Survey of Dental Practice. c. 2003 Edition, American Dental Association

http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc...pec/byspec.html
Physician Socioeconomic Statistics. c. 2003 Edition, American Medical Association

This data is from 2003, however, so multiply everything by around 1.2. So, yes, if people like myself find that they enjoy dentistry, then the lifestyle makes it a no-brainer. Way too many advantages compared to medicine.

... Dentistry ftw

 

[DrNush]

If the OP is anything like me, he could have gone to medical school but chose not to. There are just too many advantages to dentistry.

yes SHE is like you, and never was a truer statement made...

 

[lotexigeus]

why are u so crude?

i could answer this but i'd probably get banned

 

[DCRedskinsRule]

Daaaamn my dude came in and just SHUT THIS DOWN. Bibliography and everything lol.

My thoughts exactly! Why don't you just backhand the guy next time? Jeez! Well done

Oh, and OMFS ftw

 

[armorshell]

My thoughts exactly! Why don't you just backhand the guy next time? Jeez! Well done

Oh, and OMFS ftw

That's my favorite thread to quote when these discussions go down.

 

[MichaelVicksDog]

yes SHE is like you, and never was a truer statement made...



why are u so crude?

I would say I'm more crass than crude.

 

[diplo123]

These kinds of posts tick me off. We are doctors, but you can be doctors in a lot of different things; community development, psychology, ornithology, etc;

We will be or are DOCTORS OF DENTISTRY. If somebody has a leg injury or whatever you were alluding to in your post then yes, a physician would be better suited to address it. But if someone is having intraoral or maxillofacial pain, then we are better suited to answer it. We are not 'below' physicians, we are a different type of physician. Everyone I know has immense respect for dentists and dentistry.

Regarding salary, dentists make more money than physicians on average. The dentist I shadow said he nets 350k easily, a general dentist. A lot of the reported salaries for dentists are based on surveys and are inaccurate. Coupled with the prestige and scheduled flexibility, if you're in the right area and situation dentistry can be by far the better profession.

 

[aphistis]

These kinds of posts tick me off. We are doctors, but you can be doctors in a lot of different things; community development, psychology, ornithology, etc;

We will be or are DOCTORS OF DENTISTRY. If somebody has a leg injury or whatever you were alluding to in your post then yes, a physician would be better suited to address it. But if someone is having intraoral or maxillofacial pain, then we are better suited to answer it. We are not 'below' physicians, we are a different type of physician. Everyone I know has immense respect for dentists and dentistry.

Regarding salary, dentists make more money than physicians on average. The dentist I shadow said he nets 350k easily, a general dentist. A lot of the reported salaries for dentists are based on surveys and are inaccurate. Coupled with the prestige and scheduled flexibility, if you're in the right area and situation dentistry can be by far the better profession.

Source, please, or I'm calling BS. You do realize, I hope, that physician salary surveys are equally underreported for the same reasons. Dentistry is a great profession; it doesn't need the truth stretched on its behalf.

 

[DrNush]

These kinds of posts tick me off.

anger shows insecurity. chill out

 

[tehrlich]

This is a funny thread to me.

First of all, to the original poster. I have not encountered a "feeling" of superiority by physicians when I am around them. I have quite a few in my practice and they all refer to me as "doctor." "Prestige" is all on the inside, not the outside. You determine if you feel prestigious, not the people around you. It's a maturity issue, plain and simple.

When it comes to the overall "importance" between physicians and dentists, we are insignificant. People can live without their teeth. People can live with dental caries, periodontal disease, etc.,etc. Personally, I look at myself as a tooth "technician" that people refer to me as "doctor" because of the years of my training. Maybe there should be a higher term of importance for "doctor" like "doctor supremo" for ER physicians, or pediatric heart surgeons, etc. That would be fine with me.

I had an ER doc talk me out of medicine, as I was premed when I met him. This was the best encounter of my career. I have the ability to easily run my OWN practice. Work 3-4 days a week. Make as much money as I want/need/desire/etc. with the corresponding hard work that goes with it. If I don't want to work next Thursday, I have the ability to go do whatever I want. My physician patients would LOVE to have the freedom that I have, and they tell me this repeatedly. Dentistry IS very hard work. I feel like a ditch-digger some days, but I can feel rest assured that I generated patient satisfaction and a good income for it.

Then there is the income list....... It's funny because all of the listed occupations have great ranges of income, so those numbers in the list are very inaccurate. The dental specialists that I know make way more money than what is listed, as do I as a general dentist. In fact, I made as much money my first year out of school to be in the top 10. BUT! It's NOT about the money!

If you're in your training field (medicine or dentistry) just for stature, prestige, income, country club living, etc., you will be sadly disappointed. You will not be happy with what you are doing and closer to a heart attack every day. (Thank God for physicians!) Let's say I meet a physician that hates what he does and he sees me having all of the freedoms of my profession. The only thing he has on me is this "prestige" thing, and I'm happy to give it to him!

Focus on your own skills and education. Your patienst will RESPECT and give you the prestige that YOU have made and deserve.

 

[KOM]

Source, please, or I'm calling BS. You do realize, I hope, that physician salary surveys are equally underreported for the same reasons. Dentistry is a great profession; it doesn't need the truth stretched on its behalf.

It is BS.

I asked my uncle why family medicine doc's pay is reported as so low especially when he seems to be doing quite well. He said to me that he gets these stupid surveys every year or so asking him to report his salary and that first of all, that info is private and no-one should know about it. Second of all what is the advantage of letting the country know he's making a ****-ton?

 

[umska]

I've never thought much about this until I read an article a few weeks ago about an ad in the UK that was challenged because it used the Dr. title for a dentist. The decision was that the Dr. title could not be used in the context of the ad. I've started to wonder how universally and unconditionally accepted the Dr. title is for dentists.

Here's the article:

http://www.dentistry.co.uk/news/news_detail.php?id=1727

Unless you finish a phd program in Turkey,dentists cant use a Dr. title.

 

[denticus]

The reality is, just as many dentists COULD have been physicians as physicians COULD have been dentists. That said, it's not an issue of superiority or inferiority - it's really just a matter of priority. I've heard too many stories of med students dropping out to join the field of dentistry and vice versa for this not to be the case.

To me, I look at it in 2 ways. (1) All a dentist is, is a physician who has other passions in their life that they're not willing to forfeit for just one. For example, I have a passion for science, health and service. Well, great, I can satisfy these personal interests through dentistry just as I could have had I chosen medicine as well. However, I also love to run, explore, travel the world, play the piano, coach, create businesses, write novels, invent stuff and most importantly spend time with my family. People in medicine can gripe and contend all they want to try and argue that they can do the same but the reality is, all other things being equal, physicians will simply not be able to cater to and accommodate their "other" passions to the degree that a dentist will be able to.

So, if I were a physician, would I not be able to have time for family, exploring the world, creating business empires, writing novels, playing the piano, running, and coaching? ABSOLUTELY NOT! However, I simply would not be able to spend the amount of time with these other passions to the degree that I will be able to enjoy with dentistry. I'd argue that most physicians are physicians because they love medicine and they really don't have any other passion as important to them as medicine is. Otherwise, you'll find an angry physician. On the flipside, many dentists (if they're anything like me) realize that dentistry is just one passion among many - all of which they will be able to satisfy in their lifetime; dentistry itself being a means for your passions not the fulfillment thereof. If not, then you have a dentist who just loves dentistry more then anything for other reasons. Maybe for the rigorous training of working with your hands. Which leads me to my second view of this issue

(2) My definition of success for me is how much of my time is...well, MINE. I'm not willing to sign my life away to any profession that attenuates my sense of freedom as an individual. Simply stated, dentistry liberates and medicine attenuates (for me that is).

 

[btizzels]

This thread is worthless, how about we get past middle school, and start acting like the professionals we all claim to be.

First off who cares!!!!!!!!!!!!! wait let me say it again......... WHO CARES!!!!!!!!

Seriously I could care less what MDs think about us DDS/DMDs they do a very important job in their own field, and we do an important job in our field. End of story, game over... we are both doctors and should act like it.

EDIT: Oops forgot to include my buddies the DOs (Doctor of Osteopathic medicine) who are also get bashed on for "not being MDs"

 

[DrNush]

The reality is, just as many dentists COULD have been physicians as physicians COULD have been dentists. That said, it's not an issue of superiority or inferiority - it's really just a matter of priority. I've heard too many stories of med students dropping out to join the field of dentistry and vice versa for this not to be the case.

To me, I look at it in 2 ways. (1) All a dentist is, is a physician who has other passions in their life that they're not willing to forfeit for just one. For example, I have a passion for science, health and service. Well, great, I can satisfy these personal interests through dentistry just as I could have had I chosen medicine as well. However, I also love to run, explore, travel the world, play the piano, coach, create businesses, write novels, invent stuff and most importantly spend time with my family. People in medicine can gripe and contend all they want to try and argue that they can do the same but the reality is, all other things being equal, physicians will simply not be able to cater to and accommodate their "other" passions to the degree that a dentist will be able to.

So, if I were a physician, would I not be able to have time for family, exploring the world, creating business empires, writing novels, playing the piano, running, and coaching? ABSOLUTELY NOT! However, I simply would not be able to spend the amount of time with these other passions to the degree that I will be able to enjoy with dentistry. I'd argue that most physicians are physicians because they love medicine and they really don't have any other passion as important to them as medicine is. Otherwise, you'll find an angry physician. On the flipside, many dentists (if they're anything like me) realize that dentistry is just one passion among many - all of which they will be able to satisfy in their lifetime; dentistry itself being a means for your passions not the fulfillment thereof. If not, then you have a dentist who just loves dentistry more then anything for other reasons. Maybe for the rigorous training of working with your hands. Which leads me to my second view of this issue

(2) My definition of success for me is how much of my time is...well, MINE. I'm not willing to sign my life away to any profession that attenuates my sense of freedom as an individual. Simply stated, dentistry liberates and medicine attenuates (for me that is).

GREAT post


btw - check out the PT forum. according to a few posters, MDs, DOs and now apparently DVMs are the only real doctors. but really at this point i agree - who cares. just pointin it out....

 

[DrNush]

When it comes to the overall "importance" between physicians and dentists, we are insignificant. People can live without their teeth. People can live with dental caries, periodontal disease, etc.,etc.

i know ur a dentist and im a mere dental student, BUT sure, they can live without teeth. i'm sure everyone loves to eat mashed bananas and peas day in day out for breakfast, lunch and dinner. not to mention the associated TMJ pain.
truth be told, i've never seen anyone happier than a patient who gets his first set of complete dentures.

i agree people could stand to live with caries (i find it ridiculous when people say caries is the most prevalent disease in the world - like come on, is it really life-threatening?) - however, what happens when that caries is left untreated and progresses to a periapical abscess, cellulitis, sepsis, further problems in cardiac patients etc? how about the patient who comes to you with a severe pain in his right mandible, and once u do an emergency access opening and drain it, he sighs in relief?

if what you said is true, people can live without a multitude of cosmetic-centered medical specialties. i know plenty of physicians who make big bucks just "specializing" in cosmetic facial treatments. but yes, if u were to compare dentistry with cardiology etc, i definitely agree dentistry is less important. however, i do not agree that dental treatment is insigificant as a whole - just the cosmetic aspect.

**buahahaha - and the fighting continues**

 

[aphistis]

The reality is, just as many dentists COULD have been physicians as physicians COULD have been dentists. That said, it's not an issue of superiority or inferiority - it's really just a matter of priority. I've heard too many stories of med students dropping out to join the field of dentistry and vice versa for this not to be the case.

To me, I look at it in 2 ways. (1) All a dentist is, is a physician who has other passions in their life that they're not willing to forfeit for just one. For example, I have a passion for science, health and service. Well, great, I can satisfy these personal interests through dentistry just as I could have had I chosen medicine as well. However, I also love to run, explore, travel the world, play the piano, coach, create businesses, write novels, invent stuff and most importantly spend time with my family. People in medicine can gripe and contend all they want to try and argue that they can do the same but the reality is, all other things being equal, physicians will simply not be able to cater to and accommodate their "other" passions to the degree that a dentist will be able to.

So, if I were a physician, would I not be able to have time for family, exploring the world, creating business empires, writing novels, playing the piano, running, and coaching? ABSOLUTELY NOT! However, I simply would not be able to spend the amount of time with these other passions to the degree that I will be able to enjoy with dentistry. I'd argue that most physicians are physicians because they love medicine and they really don't have any other passion as important to them as medicine is. Otherwise, you'll find an angry physician. On the flipside, many dentists (if they're anything like me) realize that dentistry is just one passion among many - all of which they will be able to satisfy in their lifetime; dentistry itself being a means for your passions not the fulfillment thereof. If not, then you have a dentist who just loves dentistry more then anything for other reasons. Maybe for the rigorous training of working with your hands. Which leads me to my second view of this issue

(2) My definition of success for me is how much of my time is...well, MINE. I'm not willing to sign my life away to any profession that attenuates my sense of freedom as an individual. Simply stated, dentistry liberates and medicine attenuates (for me that is).

Reality check, boss. Dentists are not physicians.

If you respond to this by quoting Medicare reimbursement definitions, I claim preemptive victory.

 

[achilles2]

so many mad people