With which political party do you most affiliate?

[smalltownpsych]

I don't know, I work with hundreds of patients who benefit from guaranteed medical care.

Might be the way that your state set it up. In our state, we have not seen an increase in coverage or access which are two very distinct things in rural America. The working poor and the middle class seem to be the ones who still struggle the most. The children in poverty and the disabled got care before and still get care now. We have increased our paperwork and administrative costs at the hospital, but we continue to have positive cash flow (not profit since we are a private non-profit) despite the fact that the government shorts us about 50 million a year so we are doing better than most rural hospitals in the state. That is because our business department is excellent at maintaining high efficiency and also recruiting solid providers by compensating them well. Because of that our rural area gets better than average care and that is a success story of the free market. The next town over is an example of the failure of the free market. Government run means the same (lower?) level of care across the board and private-run means there are winners and losers. Although not a fan of the ACA for many reasons, I do believe at this point the only way to go is forward and I have faith that we will figure it out and eventually we will have a system that is better than it was for the majority of us. My wife says I am too much the eternal optimist!

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[WisNeuro]

Oh, I'm not talking about a state run system Also, if you look at health care outcomes, countries with one-payer, or largely one payer systems by far have the best outcomes and usually at a much lower cost.

I agree with some, the ACA has some definite flaws, but I'd rather see it changed than axed. The old system was far beyond broken.

 

[WisNeuro]

Government run means the same (lower?) level of care across the board and private-run means there are winners and losers.

Not necessarily. In the scant research on outcome that there is in the US healthcare system (of which there needs to be more) the VA, a government run system, outpaces the private sector in the majority of variables.

 

[erg923]

Not necessarily. In the scant research on outcome that there is in the US healthcare system (of which there needs to be more) the VA, a government run system, outpaces the private sector in the majority of variables.

Yes, but we dont have to worry about making a profit, thus we have alot of leeway AND can be wasteful while doing it.

 

[WisNeuro]

True, but we do work within a budget. I just took umbrage to the fallacy that government run healthcare systems are inherently worse. The evidence in the US, and definitely in other industrialized nations strongly argues for the contrary to that misconception.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yes, but we dont have to worry about making a profit, thus we have alot of leeway AND can be wasteful while doing it.

*cough* USPS *cough*

 

[CheetahGirl]

I am just asking a question nobody is specifically answering, particularly Cheetah. Her answer implied a switch on some issues from dem to rep, so I'm curious.

I'm on my lunch break....so had a minute. Did I mention I have kids and work full-time, hence limited free time to timely responses?

I never said I was a republican...but may vote for some republicans if they are running (like Giuliani). Hence with safety as a parent: police control & crime are always on my radar...and after hearing him speak, I usually side with Giuliani's opinions. I live in Manhattan and had all my training in NYC, including Bronx, Queens, Brooklyn, (so was living here when Giuliani was in office...and I loved Bloomberg too). I have also had all my kids here. So I have been exposed to my share of the full SES spectrum.

Biggest Issue #1 Dem-like before kids ---> Rep-like now.
There's something to say about the revamping Medicaid, social security and most public welfare systems because I see so much abuse of it daily. For these issues, I have become much more conservative. I am appalled by individuals who separate their groceries to pay for some of it with EBT (food stamps) cards and then, pay cash or credit for $100 dollars-worth of junk and pet supplies (not to mention these individuals are usually wearing $500 Coach boots and carrying $300 Gucci bags…they could be knock-off’s but a sad part of me thinks they are not) …Not saying that individuals on welfare should be without a pet or nice clothes, but the priorities are misplaced. Get off food stamps, rather than this accustomed lifestyle of the Gov’t supporting you so you can look stylish. Meanwhile, I’m working my a—off in training, while my husband supports our family, pays our taxes, and hands over our hard-earned wages to the Gov’t. We had our 4 kids: we took the responsibility to cloth, feed and care for each of them....without public assistance, although we could sure use it but don't qualify.

Biggest Issue #2 Rep-like before kids ---> Dem-like now.
I grew up in a conservative immigrant, upper-middle class family who considered issues like same-sex relationships as taboo. When I met my husband, his sister WAS gay (she is not most recently b/c she ‘found the proper way’ as born-again, which is really sad for her family & all her former gay friends...b/c everyone was so accepting). As a parent, I would accept any and each of my children if they came home with a same-sex partner. I am their mother, I will never reject them because of their love interest’s gender. I would be worried about other things (a crime-laden drug lord would not be a good match for any of my kids), but I’m pretty open-minded about MOST things.

I’m sure I could dig up many more political points…but I prefer fantasy to reality in this regards and just resign to watching House of Cards...and voting at elections.

CheetahGirl

 

[WisNeuro]

The public welfare system question is much too broad and most think about much too simply. Especially considering a huge chunk of such programs goes to recipients who are not the focus of the discussion about abuses. Like housing vouchers predominantly going to elderly and permanently disabled individuals. And most gen welfare recipients being single mothers with children who are or were recently working. They've done fraud analysis and estimates before and the number is usually below 2%. Compare that to tax fraud, corporate and individual, and it's a drop in the bucket.

Long story short, this is a very complicated issue in which people usually have a very strong opinion on that doesn't rely on much objective data. I blame Faux News and MSNBC.

 

[QAsPsych]

Biggest Issue #1 Dem-like before kids ---> Rep-like now.
There's something to say about the revamping Medicaid, social security and most public welfare systems because I see so much abusive of it daily. For these issues, I have become much more conservative. I am appalled by individuals who separate their groceries to pay for some of it with EBT (food stamps) cards and then, pay cash or credit for $100 dollars-worth of junk and pet supplies (not to mention these individuals are usually wearing $500 Coach boots and carrying $300 Gucci bags…they could be knock-off’s but a sad part of me thinks they are not) …Not saying that individuals on welfare should be without a pet or nice clothes, but the priorities are misplaced. Get off food stamps, rather than this accustomed lifestyle of the Gov’t supporting you so you can look stylish. Meanwhile, I’m working my a—off in training, while my husband supports our family, pays our taxes, and hands over our hard-earned wages to the Gov’t. We had our 4 kids: we took the responsibility to cloth, feed and care for each of them....without public assistance, although we could sure use it but don't qualify,

In situations like this it is very often the case that people are selling their EBT (because they can't buy what they want with it), and the person you see buying it is not the person who is "on" EBT. Also, a lot of people have things and a certain lifestyle and then lose their job, leading to these types of situations (already had the "wealthy" things but have no income temporarily). To be honest though I always just question these sorts of stories because I've never seen anyone living like this, and I have lived in a lot of poor neighborhoods. Maybe it's a part of the country sort of thing?

 

[CheetahGirl]

QAPsych, definitely part of the country...live in NYC for 5-10 years and you may become more cynical. A perfectly able-bodied young man (well, teenager) was on the (subway) train the other day begging for a BOTTLE OF WATER?! WTW?! Go to the water fountain at the public library. Get that kid some direction in life...not watching the ways of his parents and grandparents. Call me ignorant...I'm just sayin'

Yes, WisNeuro, my grievances are broad and this is one snippet. I'm not a fan of external locus of control either. I like the Compensative Work Training programs at the VAs. Don't just hand out funds...train & work for them. Don't just have children, use birth control (sorry anti-contraception individuals). I'm all for public healthcare...but not Obamacare which competes with private companies, but more like France or Denmark (per the World Health Organization, 2000 report). Regardless, I would like to see more conservative improvements rather than much of the same.

Oh, to offer another snippet: Michelle Obama's Healthy lunches were an epic fail. My kids go to NYC public school and most kids (mine included) have home-lunch now. Not to pick on Michelle Obama. Nancy Reagan's Just Say No to drugs didn't go over too well either with some. But from both, I will garner the major premises: Healthy eating and a way to reject a hazardous lifestyle.

Did I mention I can't stand politics?!? I'm going to sign-off this thread. I can get myself in a tizzy over some of this stuff.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

FWIW...I've seen it everywhere, but particularly in the Northeast. Living in Baltimore ruined almost every last hint of moderate fiscal thinking I may have possessed in the feel good 90s. There are larger issues at play, but suffice to say even if fraud is "only" <5%...that is still a HUGE number nationally.

I still take issue w how the various programs are setup bc some work, but most are fundamentally flawed and teach dependance on the State. There needs to be an offering of support AND a REALISTIC path out, not just another handout w. no expectation other than compliance w. the broken system. It shouldn't take an extraordinary mind/body/other to escape poverty, it should be attainable for the average Joe/Jane too.

*edit to add*
Michelle Obama's school food mandate was all flash and no substance. First off, address the food deserts, as kids learn how to eat before being in school. It was beyond arrogant (no doubt where that came from) to assume her way would work w. so many legitimate issues being raised.

This actually ties in w how I'd offer WIC/food stamps...with a pre-selected box of food per wk and REQUIRED basic classes on nutrition and cooking. An hour every month is possibke, even for the busiest of HOHs. Offer daycare and centralize at stores/food pick-up areas. Many ppl will also be in public housing, so make sure those units all have a working stove, etc.

Education and opportunity will help the current and future generations move towards independence, which should at least be tolerated if not embraced by anyone w half a heart. I'd even allow the Koch brothers to combine their black shriveled hearts just this one time if I'd make a difference.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm all about improvements, as long as they are ground in facts and not propaganda.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I'm all about improvements, as long as they are ground in facts and not propaganda.

Exactly and that is where both conservatives and liberals tend to agree and meet in the middle. Unfortunately, both sides tend to exaggerate the other's positions and cite the far right or far left viewpoint as that is easier to attack. I don't want to be equated with a gun-toting, tobacco chewin', intolerant bible thumpin' redneck or a pot-smokin' communist everything goes hippy, but that is what you tend to get from the other side. Since I tend to be pretty solidly in the middle and don't align with either, I get this from both sides!

 

[QAsPsych]

Yeah to be honest I think I'll just never see eye-to-eye with people saying the types of things said by cheetahgirl and t4c on this issue, our views are irreconcilable. It's why I don't talk politics with people much, it generally comes down to two incommensurable positions (and unlike some people, I don't find arguing an enjoyable activity; it's saved me a lot of strife once I realized that there are people in this world who actually enjoy it and that I can avoid arguing with them if discussion if it isn't vital).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm all about improvements, as long as they are ground in facts and not propaganda.

Look no further than to most/all of the African countries we have given billions (trillions?) to over the past 30+ years. Compare that approach, where money is "re-distributed", to the work of smaller/leaner private organizations that go in with a real plan, close oversight, and transparency from top to bottom. Also, a group like the Gates Foundation is a model worth emulating. They aren't just throwing money at problems. They are getting some of the best and brightest to tackle tangible issues that are measurable. They expect real results to support continued work.

Wow…I've done more expression of moderate views in this thread than I've done in like a decade. I feel like I need to go balance it out by hosting an emergency NRA intervention meeting followed by a reading of the Constitution at the steps of the state capital.

 

[CheetahGirl]

Yeah to be honest I think I'll just never see eye-to-eye with people saying the types of things said by cheetahgirl and t4c on this issue, our views are irreconcilable.

Opinions are like a--holes...we all have one.

QAPsych, just curious...are you training to be a therapist or are you a therapist (I forgot, sorry)? I suppose you can be utterly rigid and a therapist but ETHICS 101, what if your client was so polar opposite as you on certain issues...Can you reconcile those differences in the room?

And I'm not arguing - just teasing apart your statement and curious about what types of things we were saying that create irreconcilable differences - that we want social welfare reform?! Do you think differently?! Is our system working for you, as a taxpayer, constituent, or recipient? It's not for me...that's for sure. My husband is a small business owner and he has to pay HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS in taxes each year (more if his company does well...and BTW he is a gun-toting Republican but thank god he's Bhagavad Gita-thumping thanks to my influence...so we usually cancel each other out in elections). I just wonder where all that money goes, especially when I'm making $27K as an intern and I personally could use some social assistance (mutually exclusive of my husband's salary).

And in all fairness, I just don't sit well with people that I don't see eye-to-eye with either (someone's always better or worse when thinking in black and white terms)....but at the very least, I always attempt to extrapolate to their position (that dirty word: Empathize)...which is a helpful tip for any therapist and researcher.

 

[bcliff]

I've been trying to follow that Gandhi saying by 'being the change I want to see in the world', so if that means I need to be less partisan for everyone to be less partisan, then so be it.

I've toned down my more leftist ideologies over the past few years. I think having BO in the White House for the last 7 years (not to mention *ahem* growing out of my moody teenager phase) has relieved some of my George W. related angst. I fully support compromise with the GOP, which means that I am ready to sacrifice some of what I want just so we can accomplish something as a country. I have my own views; other people have their own views, and as much as it can sometimes pain me to say it, neither is necessarily right or wrong.

At the end of the day the United States is a moderate nation (compared to Western Europe, Canada, etc.), and as an optimist I view that moderation as a strength rather than a weakness. My partner and I have talked about possibly leaving the U.S. after I finish graduate school, and we're both open to the possibility. I have a lot of family that lives abroad (Ireland, UK, Western Europe), and I think that an APA accredited clinical PhD is recognized by other English speaking countries, but I could be wrong. When really conservative people threaten to leave the U.S. if liberal-candidate-X wins a certain election, I'm always left scratching my head wondering which Western, English speaking country, they find to be more conservative than the United States. As a liberal I feel like I could mesh pretty well with the politics of Western Europe, Canada, or Australia/New Zealand, but as the cliché says, I'm proud to be an American, and I don't foresee leaving the country in a huff anytime soon.

 

[erg923]

I've been trying to follow that Gandhi saying by 'being the change I want to see in the world', so if that means

You mean this?

 

[bcliff]

You mean this?

yes

 

[WisNeuro]

If that dude is paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes each year, he is either doing exceptionally well for a small business by definition, or needs a new tax man. The effective tax rate, much different than the posted tax rate, is pretty low in the US compared to many other countries with simplified tax codes.

I'm technically a small business owner, real estate, there are hundreds of deductions that lower the already low small business tax rates in federal withholding.

 

[QAsPsych]

I feel I should have been clearer with my statement that wrt people who like to argue, I was speaking generally, not the people in this thread.

Opinions are like a--holes...we all have one.

Well, I tried very hard not to say anything about your ideas aside from "I disagree."

QAPsych, just curious...are you training to be a therapist or are you a therapist (I forgot, sorry)? I suppose you can be utterly rigid and a therapist but ETHICS 101, what if your client was so polar opposite as you on certain issues...Can you reconcile those differences in the room?

Things that happen in the therapy environment =/= things that happen outside of the therapy environment. I've been good at compartmentalizing things so far, in part because in therapy it's about the client, not me. I am in training.

And I'm not arguing - just teasing apart your statement and curious about what types of things we were saying that create irreconcilable differences - that we want social welfare reform?! Do you think differently?! Is our system working for you, as a taxpayer, constituent, or recipient? It's not for me...that's for sure. My husband is a small business owner and he has to pay HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS in taxes each year (more if his company does well...and BTW he is a gun-toting Republican but thank god he's Bhagavad Gita-thumping thanks to my influence...so we usually cancel each other out in elections). I just wonder where all that money goes, especially when I'm making $27K as an intern and I personally could use some social assistance (mutually exclusive of my husband's salary).

Only if by "reform" you mean "broadening"

No, really, your views and mine are opposed to each other, like oil and water. I have completely different explanations for the etiology of the problems you see and the solutions to them, even though we agree there are problems. Which makes it not very helpful for me to share my views.

And in all fairness, I just don't sit well with people that I don't see eye-to-eye with either (someone's always better or worse when thinking in black and white terms)....but at the very least, I always attempt to extrapolate to their position (that dirty word: Empathize)...which is a helpful tip for any therapist and researcher.

I am incapable of understanding certain complaints. I just re-read some of what you wrote, and if I tried to argue I'd just strawman you all over because I can't wrap my head around certain ways of conceptualizing the world. It's not to say you're wrong. I can empathize with the feelings you have, but I feel them in reaction to a very different set of things. I find that it gets me by just fine in therapy and research

 

[psych844]

QAPsych, definitely part of the country...live in NYC for 5-10 years and you may become more cynical. A perfectly able-bodied young man (well, teenager) was on the (subway) train the other day begging for a BOTTLE OF WATER?! WTW?! Go to the water fountain at the public library. Get that kid some direction in life...not watching the ways of his parents and grandparents. Call me ignorant...I'm just sayin'

I don't really understand harsh judgement of people who are at the bottom of society. (in terms of their status, whether that be socioeconomic status, etc) I understand that it is normal to get frustrated (get tired, notice how much you have to do, etc) and then be like "why are others so lazy?", but sadly, it isn't that simple. This isn't to say that a society shouldn't have certain values, but there is clearly something wrong with that society if they look down and are somewhat envious of people who are at the bottom. The goal of any society should be to get beyond judgments, ideology, and apply the best ideas no matter if they come from the "left" or "right". If you look at some of the nations in the world with the most happy citizens, who also do well economically (Nordic countries, Germany, etc) you see this practical approach, where ideas from the left and right are combined to get the best results.

 

[CheetahGirl]

On my lunch break again....

If that dude is paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in taxes each year, he is either doing exceptionally well for a small business by definition, or needs a new tax man. The effective tax rate, much different than the posted tax rate, is pretty low in the US compared to many other countries with simplified tax codes.
I'm technically a small business owner, real estate, there are hundreds of deductions that lower the already low small business tax rates in federal withholding.

Dude's doing exceptionally well, but puts his net earnings back into his business to grow it (and purchases real estate). So, in some respects, we struggle intentionally as a form of delayed gratification. Hey, delayed gratification...that's a 'novel' idea to teach the younger generations!

No, really, your views and mine are opposed to each other, like oil and water. I have completely different explanations for the etiology of the problems you see and the solutions to them, even though we agree there are problems. Which makes it not very helpful for me to share my views.

I'm just dying over here...why not share your ideas?!? I don't know who you are but I 'm so curious about the "oil" perspective to my "water."

I don't really understand harsh judgment of people who are at the bottom of society. (in terms of their status, whether that be socioeconomic status, etc)

I may have come across harsh...but I certainly am not harsh when encountering these folks in person. This is my raw, unadultrated self/superego reporting here on 'ole SDN. (Incidentally, I did not give this teenager any money to buy a bottle of water...because I don't contribute to pan-handling [period]. And my blanket statement is "I don't have anything to spare," which is utterly true...I need all my own resources for my own family. I now feel my civic duty goes to the work I do, and my contributions to my neighborhood and children's school.) My judgments definitely incorporate my morals and values...I'm never knocking someone because they are struggling (that's like hitting a man when he's already down). However, I am taking issue with the perpetuation of these harmful cycles and ignorance, which can be prevalent across SES, not just experienced in the poor (and sometimes excluded from those with mental illness which may be co-morbid).

Another anecdote: Walking around NYC, I sometimes see young mothers toting 2-3 kids around...cursing to high heaven at their children, saying "Nobody wants you," "You're stupid as shi-," "Shut the F-ck up." Uh, EXCUSE ME...that is no way to talk to your child(ren), but perhaps (most likely) it was done to the young mother. I would love for a bipartisan Gov't to address this moral and social issue...because it is disgusting and I would love to see it change...which I am doing one therapy case at time...in addition to my volunteer work with domestic violence and sexual assault....and my dissertation project.

I am not righteous or a hypocrite (as no one said I was) but I see a problem, and I am putting forth a heck of a lot of energy to change it...just as Gandhi suggested. Thankfully, I was given respect as a child, and in turn, respect my children...so they will recognize it when they experience it. Perhaps I have a larger problem with moral depravity, which is off-topic. That said, let me sign off again.

 

[erg923]

I am am pretty soft on social issues such as imigration, healthcare, welfare/social welfare programs. It's tricky not to make them enabling/handicapping, however, I agree. Just look at the VAs C&P system. I am not really flexible on abortion.

The having of children has mostly made me become a typical person who looks at "the kids these days" and sometimes just shakes his head. Otherwise, It has simply made my wife and I bit more ardent about (social) issues that have little to do with politics and more to do with cultural norms and behavior. I'm not really a fan of the "Do it's your thing. If it's not, it's okay" attitude. Wanna have sex? Sure, go ahead. Sure, one night stands are fine. Wanna have a kid? Sure. Have a kid whenever... and with whoever. Pretty much the only rule is "don't judge," cause THATS really whats harmful.

Hedonism. One of the historically accepted reasons that Rome fell to the Turks...

 

[WisNeuro]

I think it was more of a combination of economic/political instability, overreliance on slave labor, and the spread of Christianity. If anything, Rome was stronger and more stable when it was more hedonistic and insular.

 

[erg923]

I think it was more of a combination of economic/political instability, overreliance on slave labor, and the spread of Christianity. If anything, Rome was stronger and more stable when it was more hedonistic and insular.

Not when I was in school. I did attend Catholic schools though, so...

 

[WisNeuro]

I would imagine the Roman Catholic view on this may be slightly different. I also imagine they saw the Crusades and the sacking of other Christian territories when crusaders got bored and didn't feel like going all the way to the Holy Land a bit differently as well

 

[erg923]

I would imagine the Roman Catholic view on this may be slightly different. I also imagine they saw the Crusades and the sacking of other Christian territories when crusaders got bored and didn't feel like going all the way to the Holy Land a bit differently as well

We sometimes struggle to live up to all the Vatican II changes still, but I think we are well past the ideaology that produced the Crusades and Spanish inquisition

 

[psych844]

The having of children has mostly made me become a typical person who looks at "the kids these days" and sometimes just shakes his head. Otherwise, It has simply made my wife and I bit more ardent about (social) issues that have little to do with politics and more to do with cultural norms and behavior. I'm not really a fan of the "Do it's your thing. If it's not, it's okay" attitude. Wanna have sex? Sure, go ahead. Sure, one night stands are fine. Wanna have a kid? Sure. Have a kid whenever... and with whoever. Pretty much the only rule is "don't judge," cause THATS really whats harmful.

.

All that says is that you choose to base your morality on dogma. If you can't let go of cultural attitudes/traditions or religious belief systems in the face of new findings, that is nothing to be proud of. In fact, you would think that making new findings, and science itself, is in large part useful because it makes us question if what we are doing currently is right, moral, or whatever word you want to use. Science is the best ethical framework you could have.

 

[CheetahGirl]

I'm back...taking a smoke break (even though I don't smoke)...

Pretty much the only rule is "don't judge," cause THATS really whats harmful.

This is key... in the therapy room, I do not judge. I have my own convictions (which is what I am sharing) that influence my politicial views...but I agree, when you begin to judge the person who seeks help, the therapeutic investment is already compromised. On the train, on the sidewalk, in the grocery store, I am not doing therapy.

 

[psych844]

Naw, the problem isn't that you guys are making judgement s, it is that you are holding on to dogmatic beliefs, whether it is for cultural, religious, or political factors, is less important.

 

[erg923]

Science is the best ethical framework you could have.

Some people believe there is a higher authority (And I humbly bow to it). If you choose not to, thats fine. I'm not a preacher.

 

[WisNeuro]

We sometimes struggle to live up to all the Vatican II changes still, but I think we are well past the ideaology that produced the Crusades and Spanish inquisition

Oh, I don't think ideology has changed all that much, more that the practice of the ideology has changed. But that's a much deeper conversation beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[erg923]

Oh, I don't think ideology has changed all that much, more that the practice of the ideology has changed. But that's a much deeper conversation beyond the scope of this thread.

No, actually its very much both. And I would actually make the argument the orthodoxy of the Catholic church has changed much more since 1963 than the orthopraxy. Mass is now in English (unlike when my parents grew-up), other than minor changes to liturgical responses, much remains the same. The list of changes to our dogma and beliefs could fill a moderately lengthy list.

 

[WisNeuro]

Oh, I was referring more to the thoughts and political feelings of self-identified christians/catholics in terns of the ideology. The church has changed practices, sure, but people aren't all that different than the Inquisition times. Just look at public opinions split across beliefs in defense of torture.

 

[erg923]

Oh, I was referring more to the thoughts and political feelings of self-identified christians/catholics in terns of the ideology. The church has changed practices, sure, but people aren't all that different than the Inquisition times. Just look at public opinions split across beliefs in defense of torture.

I dont know any devout, active/involved, practicing (key words) Catholic Christians who support torture, Wiseneuro.

 

[WisNeuro]

I know plenty. The "No True Scotsman" fallacy aside, there are pretty stark differences.

 

[erg923]

I know plenty. The "No True Scotsman" fallacy aside, there are pretty stark differences.

That's clearly against the church's teaching of "respecting the dignity of all human life," so I don't think their distortion of the faith should be held against the faith itself. Much the same way radical Islam shouldn't taint that religion as a whole.

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't hold it against the faith as a whole, but you can't discount that's how a good many within the faith feel.

 

[psych844]

That's clearly against the church's teaching of "respecting the dignity of all human life," so I don't think their distortion of the faith should be held against the faith itself. Much the same way radical Islam shouldn't taint that religion as a whole.

But why are you so certain any x statement is true about Catholic Christians?

Some people believe there is a higher authority (And I humbly bow to it). If you choose not to, thats fine. I'm not a preacher.

I respect your right to believe in a god, I'm just not sure how you reconcile some things. Does your belief in a god, and the fear of his judgement, taking precedence over everything else? How do you reconcile the catholic church's ban on contraception in places ravaged by Hiv/Aids? (ie Africa) Isn't that dogma taking precedence over the dignity of life?

 

[erg923]

No. I don't believe it is. It's a institutional policy that people may not agree with. Nothing disrespectful to your "dignity" about that.

In a more macro view/answer: Belief in god and that Jesus was his divine incarnate has nothing to do with an organizations position on contraception. I dont feel a need to "reconcile" them.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I don't really understand harsh judgement of people who are at the bottom of society. (in terms of their status, whether that be socioeconomic status, etc) I understand that it is normal to get frustrated (get tired, notice how much you have to do, etc) and then be like "why are others so lazy?", but sadly, it isn't that simple. This isn't to say that a society shouldn't have certain values, but there is clearly something wrong with that society if they look down and are somewhat envious of people who are at the bottom. The goal of any society should be to get beyond judgments, ideology, and apply the best ideas no matter if they come from the "left" or "right". If you look at some of the nations in the world with the most happy citizens, who also do well economically (Nordic countries, Germany, etc) you see this practical approach, where ideas from the left and right are combined to get the best results.

God I hate the comparisons to Northern European countries, just as I hated it when we were afraid of the "wily Japanese" and their test scores. One strength of our country is it's diversity and it is also one of our weaknesses. I sure as hell wouldn't be happy being a German and my highly educated snobby Swedish relatives are so much more boring than my fun-loving dysfunctional Italian relatives.

Oh and what's wrong with criticizing people for the poor choices they make? You went right for the straw man of saying that someone on here is saying that the "poor are lazy". That doesn't move the conversation forward because no one said that. I will say that some people are lazy and want to drop out of school, smoke pot, and play video games in their mom's basement. Not to judge or anything, but I think people like that should be judged negatively by society, maybe even ridiculed and scorned. I am so tired of the politically correct idea that everyone is "special", even if they are a jerk. That is half the reason that we have all of these schools for "anyone can be a doctor of clinical psychology".

 

[psych844]

In a more macro biew/answer: Belief in god and that Jesus was his divine carnate has nothing to do with an organizations position on contraception. I dont feel a need to "reconcile" them.

If at the macro level a belief in a god is more important than any sects/organizations interpretation, why be so specific in this thread to call yourself a Catholic Christian?

 

[erg923]

If at the macro level a belief in a god is more important than any sects/organizations interpretation, why be so specific in this thread to call yourself a Catholic Christian?

I don't understand that question. Are you asking why I am catholic vs baptist or Methodist? If so, probably more of a back channel discussion.

 

[psych844]

God I hate the comparisons to Northern European countries, just as I hated it when we were afraid of the "wily Japanese" and their test scores. One strength of our country is it's diversity and it is also one of our weaknesses. I sure as hell wouldn't be happy being a German and my highly educated snobby Swedish relatives are so much more boring than my fun-loving dysfunctional Italian relatives.

Oh and what's wrong with criticizing people for the poor choices they make? You went right for the straw man of saying that someone on here is saying that the "poor are lazy". That doesn't move the conversation forward because no one said that. I will say that some people are lazy and want to drop out of school, smoke pot, and play video games in their mom's basement. Not to judge or anything, but I think people like that should be judged negatively by society, maybe even ridiculed and scorned. I am so tired of the politically correct idea that everyone is "special", even if they are a jerk. That is half the reason that we have all of these schools for "anyone can be a doctor of clinical psychology".

Your post sounds pretty emotional, and I'm not sure what i'm supposed to do with it. I'm not at all saying that judgement is not normal or human nature...hell i could be MORE judgmental than you, but the difference is that I realize that it is from my temperament, my background, and I realize that my problems should not be projected to other people. The other difference is that we are both educated enough to realize that it is almost never the case that someone is simply lazy, though it's not like i've never made the comment in an emotional state.

 

[psych844]

I don't understand that question. Are you asking why I am catholic vs baptist or Methodist? If so, probably more of a back channel discussion.

You added something to your post which clarified your position.

So institutional decisions are never against human dignity?

 

[WisNeuro]

God I hate the comparisons to Northern European countries, just as I hated it when we were afraid of the "wily Japanese" and their test scores. One strength of our country is it's diversity and it is also one of our weaknesses. I sure as hell wouldn't be happy being a German and my highly educated snobby Swedish relatives are so much more boring than my fun-loving dysfunctional Italian relatives.
.

I think you are conflating psych844's comments about more moderate political systems with inherent stereotypes of people.

 

[erg923]

You added something to your post which clarified your position.

So institutional decisions are never against human dignity?

When did I ever say anything that resembles such sweeping, absolute statement?

 

[smalltownpsych]

I think you are conflating psych844's comments about more moderate political systems with inherent stereotypes of people.

No. I am talking about culture and it's different variants. In other words, I am saying that our culture values conflict and competitiveness more and that has good and bad sides to it.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yes, but he was referring more to political moderation and bipartisanship. And, by most objective measures, it seems to work. Much better than our current partisan situation.