Words of wisdom from a Surgeon (Harvard/JH Grad)

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premedbrah

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Shadowed a surgeon in the OR last night, he had a lot of great information. I sent him a followup letter and this was his response (below). I say this applies to all of us.
_____________________________________________________________________
Dear Premedbrah,



Thanks for coming to the OR last night. I enjoyed having you there. The book that I mentioned is called Triumphs of Experience by George Vaillant. Dr. [Removed] mentioned a book called Happiness is a Serious Problem by Dennis Prager. I suppose that you will have to figure this one out on your own about what it is that you want to accomplish in life and what it is that will eventually make you happy. I can tell you from personal experience as well as observing those around me (many of whom are very successful people on the outside) that happiness does not come from extraordinary material wealth, a long list of accomplishments or success in your job (though these can all contribute to an overall well balanced life). Developing meaningful relationships with close friends, family and your future spouse as well as finding a purpose for what you do in life seems to have a lot more to do with inner happiness. If I were to give you any advice (the same advice I give my kids), it would be the following:



1) Don’t develop any addictions and avoid excessive alcohol consumption. Obviously, in your age group, having more than 1 beer at a party is pretty customary but don’t make it a habit. Bad things happen when people drink to excess. A glass of wine with dinner and a beer at a Baseball game is fine but getting hammered or habitually abusing alcohol will lead steadily to a very unhappy life.



2) Develop a strong relationship with your dad and be a good father to your kids one day.



3) Don’t work or choose a specialty or profession that frequently requires you to be awake from 10 pm to 6 am. Your residency excepted (you have no choice in the matter), it’s not good for your body in the long run.



4) Choose your future wife wisely. It is literally the most important decision that you will make in your life. We don’t have control over a lot of things that happen to us in life but this is one of them that we do. Don’t get married young (before the age of 28 or so) unless you have truly found “the one” and can’t imagine spending your life without that person. Make sure that that person is free of addictions.


5) Don’t pursue wealth to excess. You will never have enough if you do. If you happen to strike it rich, great, but don’t work 100 hours a week to make up for it. As a physician, you will always be ok. If you’re not around for your kids and your future wife, your family will fall apart.



6) Focus on your marriage. Your kids will be happy if they see that you’re happy with your wife. It doesn’t work the other way around.





That’s all for now. Good luck Premedbrah.
__________________________________________________________________

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Bitches be shopping, amirite?

I hope the guy who wrote this letter was... at least 50.
 
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These are solid advices. Good man, he is (though the shopping addiction part cracked me up).
 
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4) Choose your future wife wisely. It is literally the most important decision that you will make in your life. We don’t have control over a lot of things that happen to us in life but this is one of them that we do. Don’t get married young (before the age of 28 or so) unless you have truly found “the one” and can’t imagine spending your life without that person. Make sure that that person is free of addictions (except for maybe a shopping addiction which many women have).

I have a little something to say to the treasure who wrote this bit. Women (and men - but that's for another thread) shop like there be no tomorrow largely because they lack a passion of their own in life (and/or are stressed beyond their coping capacity for that matter) . Guess what - should you become a doctor and have children, it's rather likely your wife will be a stay at home mom. And yes - most shop to fill the void of having to take care of their kids to the detriment of their personal development (doesn't help that Dr. Daddy is always working too, and even though Dr. WonderboyOMGAdviceMaven cautioned against it, it's still likely to happen). What I'm trying to say is NOT to dismiss this as a woman's thing. It's an addiction as much as is alcohol or drugs, and just because it isn't deadly doesn't make it any less debilitating. Sadly, my mom followed this pattern her entire life and I know how bad things can get. She wasn't married to a medical doctor, but my dad is an award-winning pioneer in his field, which meant he was away about 50% of my life.

Life is short, so y'all should enjoy whatever material possessions you want and can afford. But when you have asshats like this doc dismissing a serious problem as a WHOLE gender's innate characteristic, well then, I'm gonna have to write off this 1950s housewife handbook pseudoscience nonesense.
 
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I have a little something to say to the treasure who wrote this bit. Women (and men - but that's for another thread) shop like there be no tomorrow largely because they lack a passion of their own in life (and/or are stressed beyond their coping capacity for that matter) . Guess what - should you become a doctor and have children, it's rather likely your wife will be a stay at home mom. And yes - most shop to fill the void of having to take care of their kids to the detriment of their personal development (doesn't help that Dr. Daddy is always working too, and even though Dr. WonderboyOMGAdviceMaven cautioned against it, it's still likely to happen). What I'm trying to say is NOT to dismiss this as a woman's thing. It's an addiction as much as is alcohol or drugs, and just because it isn't deadly doesn't make it any less debilitating. Sadly, my mom followed this pattern her entire life and I know how bad things can get. She wasn't married to a medical doctor, but my dad is an award-winning pioneer in his field, which meant he was away about 50% of my life.

Life is short, so y'all should enjoy whatever material possessions you want and can afford. But when you have asshats like this doc dismissing a serious problem as a WHOLE gender's innate characteristic, well then, I'm gonna have to write off this 1950s housewife handbook pseudoscience nonesense.


Woah there, cowboy. I think he was joking.
 
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I have a little something to say to the treasure who wrote this bit. Women (and men - but that's for another thread) shop like there be no tomorrow largely because they lack a passion of their own in life (and/or are stressed beyond their coping capacity for that matter) . Guess what - should you become a doctor and have children, it's rather likely your wife will be a stay at home mom. And yes - most shop to fill the void of having to take care of their kids to the detriment of their personal development (doesn't help that Dr. Daddy is always working too, and even though Dr. WonderboyOMGAdviceMaven cautioned against it, it's still likely to happen). What I'm trying to say is NOT to dismiss this as a woman's thing. It's an addiction as much as is alcohol or drugs, and just because it isn't deadly doesn't make it any less debilitating. Sadly, my mom followed this pattern her entire life and I know how bad things can get. She wasn't married to a medical doctor, but my dad is an award-winning pioneer in his field, which meant he was away about 50% of my life.

Life is short, so y'all should enjoy whatever material possessions you want and can afford. But when you have asshats like this doc dismissing a serious problem as a WHOLE gender's innate characteristic, well then, I'm gonna have to write off this 1950s housewife handbook pseudoscience nonesense.

1. Ya he was definitely kidding
2. How can you call this doc an asshat? He graduated Honors from Harvard and then Johns Hopkins medical school, he's highly respected in his field.
 
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If you say so. Nevertheless, there is enough truth here to exercize my fingers for the night.
 
1. Ya he was definitely kidding
2. How can you call this doc an asshat? He graduated Honors from Harvard and then Johns Hopkins medical school, he's highly respected in his field.
He's just a product of his generation.
Where you attend and train has little effect on that.
 
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If you say so. Nevertheless, there is enough truth here to exercize my fingers for the night.
I'm hopeful that he would have been more circumspect if he had known his words were going onto a widely read forum of modern pre-meds.
 
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2. How can you call this doc an asshat? He graduated Honors from Harvard and then Johns Hopkins medical school, he's highly respected in his field.
So did Mitt Romney, a highly certified asshat.
 
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So did Mitt Romney, a highly certified asshat.
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I'm interested to read the books he recommended. Especially "Happiness is a Serious Problem". I read "The Paradox of Choice: Why More is Less" by Barry Schwartz as I was deciding which career to pursue a year or so ago. Such a good read to reflect on happiness and how too many choices reduces our happiness which seems counter-intuitive.
 
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1. Ya he was definitely kidding
2. How can you call this doc an asshat? He graduated Honors from Harvard and then Johns Hopkins medical school, he's highly respected in his field.
Evidence isn't found in his alma mater, clearly.
 
Heteronormativity... heteronormativity everywhere!
 
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I for one am SHOCKED that people ITT are missing the point of this thread to get preachy about a small, irrelavent part of the post.
 
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I for one am SHOCKED that people ITT are missing the point of this thread to get preachy about a small, irrelavent part of the post.

It's not irrelevant to people who are members of the groups denigrated by this "wise" dude.
 
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It's not irrelevant to people who are members of the groups denigrated by this "wise" dude.

I'm the LAST person to advocate for political correctness, but holy crappola if I'll sit still while Dr. Turd goes on about shopping problems like they're ingrained in women's DNA.
 
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I'd like to request a thread name change to "Words of Wisdom From a Sexist Dirtbag."
 
Look, I get the annoyance at the shopping comment. I'm not condoning it. However, the reaction is considerably larger than what was called for, imo. lol at it, and then move on.
 
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So this doc graduated from Harvard and he addresses you as premedbrah???

jk..
 
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Look, I get the annoyance at the shopping comment. I'm not condoning it. However, the reaction is considerably larger than what was called for, imo. lol at it, and then move on.

Surgery is a famously sexist field, even today. You know how a field stays sexist? When the young people entering it refuse to acknowledge and condemn those behaviors. ITT one of my peers reposted the words of a sexist and called it wisdom and other peers dismissed my concerns as irrelevant. Think about it.
 
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I have a little something to say to the treasure who wrote this bit. Women (and men - but that's for another thread) shop like there be no tomorrow largely because they lack a passion of their own in life (and/or are stressed beyond their coping capacity for that matter) . Guess what - should you become a doctor and have children, it's rather likely your wife will be a stay at home mom. And yes - most shop to fill the void of having to take care of their kids to the detriment of their personal development (doesn't help that Dr. Daddy is always working too, and even though Dr. WonderboyOMGAdviceMaven cautioned against it, it's still likely to happen). What I'm trying to say is NOT to dismiss this as a woman's thing. It's an addiction as much as is alcohol or drugs, and just because it isn't deadly doesn't make it any less debilitating. Sadly, my mom followed this pattern her entire life and I know how bad things can get. She wasn't married to a medical doctor, but my dad is an award-winning pioneer in his field, which meant he was away about 50% of my life.

Life is short, so y'all should enjoy whatever material possessions you want and can afford. But when you have asshats like this doc dismissing a serious problem as a WHOLE gender's innate characteristic, well then, I'm gonna have to write off this 1950s housewife handbook pseudoscience nonesense.
 
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Speaking of asshats, shout out to your friendly neighborhood bigot and recommended author of the day, Dennis Prager:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dennis_Prager

Good lord... a conspiracy theorist...

Guess who reads books by conspiracy theorists who believe that US Christian values are under attack? Other people who share the same views!

Now, I'm convinced that the misogynist comment was made by no mistake.
 
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Surgery is a famously sexist field, even today. You know how a field stays sexist? When the young people entering it refuse to acknowledge and condemn those behaviors. ITT one of my peers reposted the words of a sexist and called it wisdom and other peers dismissed my concerns as irrelevant. Think about it.

You may need to grow a thicker skin before med school. And I don't just mean for comments that may be sexist.

Basically, my point is "pick your battles."
 
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His personal biases about gender roles is irrelevant IMO unless he allows that to cloud his medical judgment.

I don't think the comment was necessary, but I don't see a lot of vitriol behind it. If you want to get up-in-arms about relevant gender issues, try fighting for equal wages and the rights of women in developing countries.
 
You may need to grow a thicker skin before med school. And I don't just mean for comments that may be sexist.

Basically, my point is "pick your battles."

I think @meander just did. And no one can comment on their validity because we all have sore sports worth fighting for.
 
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You may need to grow a thicker skin before med school. And I don't just mean for comments that may be sexist.

Basically, my point is "pick your battles."

I don't have to "pick my battles" here. This is SDN. I get to proselytize my gender equality liberal craAaAaAaziness as much as I want with virtually no repercussions. I'm a non-trad and I've worked full time for five years in a male dominated field. I strongly suspect that never having needed to develop a thicker skin is what makes people think comments like these are insignificant.

His personal biases about gender roles is irrelevant IMO unless he allows that to cloud his medical judgment.
Does "medical judgment" include how he trains residents and treats colleagues in the workplace?

I don't think the comment was necessary, but I don't see a lot of vitriol behind it. If you want to get up-in-arms about relevant gender issues, try fighting for equal wages and the rights of women in developing countries.

Fallacy of relative privation. Objecting to sexism in the workplace doesn't draw attention away from equal wages and the rights of women in developing countries. When we reject casual sexism in our everyday lives, everyone becomes more likely to address those important issues as well.
 
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I have a little something to say to the treasure who wrote this bit. Women (and men - but that's for another thread) shop like there be no tomorrow largely because they lack a passion of their own in life (and/or are stressed beyond their coping capacity for that matter) . Guess what - should you become a doctor and have children, it's rather likely your wife will be a stay at home mom. And yes - most shop to fill the void of having to take care of their kids to the detriment of their personal development (doesn't help that Dr. Daddy is always working too, and even though Dr. WonderboyOMGAdviceMaven cautioned against it, it's still likely to happen). What I'm trying to say is NOT to dismiss this as a woman's thing. It's an addiction as much as is alcohol or drugs, and just because it isn't deadly doesn't make it any less debilitating. Sadly, my mom followed this pattern her entire life and I know how bad things can get. She wasn't married to a medical doctor, but my dad is an award-winning pioneer in his field, which meant he was away about 50% of my life.

Life is short, so y'all should enjoy whatever material possessions you want and can afford. But when you have asshats like this doc dismissing a serious problem as a WHOLE gender's innate characteristic, well then, I'm gonna have to write off this 1950s housewife handbook pseudoscience nonesense.

Lol at shopping addiction. Source: The psychiatrists I know lol at "shopping addiction."
 
Okay then. I'll get the pickforks, but someone else will need to bring the torches.
 
You may need to grow a thicker skin before med school. And I don't just mean for comments that may be sexist.

Basically, my point is "pick your battles."

A great point! I happen to think this battle was well-picked. This Doc (great surgeon that he may be) was very comfortable putting a sexist comment in writing and passing it along, probably because he didn't realize it was sexist. @meander is doing the sdn community (a group of future doctors) a favor and acknowledging that the comment was inappropriate and that we should not make sweeping, pejorative generalizations about people because of their sex (also applies to race, sexuality, religion, you get the point...)

As a male, I don't actually endure sexism on a daily basis, so it might behoove me to lend a little credence to the opinion of someone who does.
 
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Does "medical judgment" include how he trains residents and treats colleagues in the workplace?



Fallacy of relative privation. Objecting to sexism in the workplace doesn't draw attention away from equal wages and the rights of women in developing countries. When we reject casual sexism in our everyday lives, everyone becomes more likely to address those important issues as well.

The former is pretty cut and dry; I feel that medical judgment is how he actually treats patients. The latter part of your question I feel is more connected to professionalism than anything. It was not a PC statement for sure.

I found the article you linked rather interesting, but I feel that you are also succumbing to a fallacy yourself; the Nirvana fallacy. You say that we should universally reject all mentions of even minute sexism; which is naïve at best (incredibly wishful thinking on your part). Reacting so drastically to something really small in scale discredits you from those who may otherwise agree with your premise. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to be more vigilant against sexism, but I feel that energies would be better spent dealing with the larger issues first.

In particular, many would argue that they feel that society is already "too PC". I have a hard time believing that having such a response at any statement that could be construed as sexist would curtail the problem. If anything, it may make it worse. Perhaps that is just me.
 
How dare something normal for the overwhelming majority of people be treated as normal?

I'd be more careful labeling something as "normal" as it implies that the opposite side is abnormal, which it's not.
 
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Shadowed a surgeon in the OR last night, he had a lot of great information. I sent him a followup letter and this was his response (below). I say this applies to all of us.
_____________________________________________________________________
Dear Premedbrah,



Thanks for coming to the OR last night. I enjoyed having you there. The book that I mentioned is called Triumphs of Experience by George Vaillant. Dr. [Removed] mentioned a book called Happiness is a Serious Problem by Dennis Prager. I suppose that you will have to figure this one out on your own about what it is that you want to accomplish in life and what it is that will eventually make you happy. I can tell you from personal experience as well as observing those around me (many of whom are very successful people on the outside) that happiness does not come from extraordinary material wealth, a long list of accomplishments or success in your job (though these can all contribute to an overall well balanced life). Developing meaningful relationships with close friends, family and your future spouse as well as finding a purpose for what you do in life seems to have a lot more to do with inner happiness. If I were to give you any advice (the same advice I give my kids), it would be the following:



1) Don’t develop any addictions and avoid excessive alcohol consumption. Obviously, in your age group, having more than 1 beer at a party is pretty customary but don’t make it a habit. Bad things happen when people drink to excess. A glass of wine with dinner and a beer at a Baseball game is fine but getting hammered or habitually abusing alcohol will lead steadily to a very unhappy life.



2) Develop a strong relationship with your dad and be a good father to your kids one day.



3) Don’t work or choose a specialty or profession that frequently requires you to be awake from 10 pm to 6 am. Your residency excepted (you have no choice in the matter), it’s not good for your body in the long run.



4) Choose your future wife wisely. It is literally the most important decision that you will make in your life. We don’t have control over a lot of things that happen to us in life but this is one of them that we do. Don’t get married young (before the age of 28 or so) unless you have truly found “the one” and can’t imagine spending your life without that person. Make sure that that person is free of addictions.


5) Don’t pursue wealth to excess. You will never have enough if you do. If you happen to strike it rich, great, but don’t work 100 hours a week to make up for it. As a physician, you will always be ok. If you’re not around for your kids and your future wife, your family will fall apart.



6) Focus on your marriage. Your kids will be happy if they see that you’re happy with your wife. It doesn’t work the other way around.





That’s all for now. Good luck Premedbrah.
__________________________________________________________________
Does he even lift, bro?
Good life advice he gave you, though. You probably seemed like a person with great pontential an he decided to take his time and type out this nice email/letter for you.
 
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Wow. The direction this thread went is pretty disappointing. Unfortunately I am not surprised...

Nonetheless, thanks for the post, OP.
 
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I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to be more vigilant against sexism, but I feel that energies would be better spent dealing with the larger issues first.

As I mentioned upthread, this is not a zero sum game, nor is it a collection of unrelated issues stack ranked from smallest to largest. We don't "fix" equal wages and then worry later about disrespect for women in the workplace. How would you fix the wage gap without condemning offhand sexist comments? Do you think it's possible to create a safe, inclusive workplace where women receive equal pay and opportunities at the same time that we dismiss sexist comments as "really small in scale"?

To be clear, the dismissive reactions of the majority of the posters in this thread are far more concerning than an offhand remark from one middle aged surgeon. As gyngyn said, he's a product of his generation. I expect my generation to have the capacity to speak up against this bull****, or at the very least tolerate those who do.
 
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You can't even rely on confidentiality of your emails to anyone anymore.

And OP, you should have known better than expecting to get no outrage reaction to someone else's sexist remarks that you posted on a public forum.
 
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As I mentioned upthread, this is not a zero sum game, nor is it a collection of unrelated issues stack ranked from smallest to largest. We don't "fix" equal wages and then worry later about disrespect for women in the workplace. How would you fix the wage gap without condemning offhand sexist comments? Do you think it's possible to create a safe, inclusive workplace where women receive equal pay and opportunities at the same time that we dismiss sexist comments as "really small in scale"?

To be clear, the dismissive reactions of the majority of the posters in this thread are far more concerning than an offhand remark from one middle aged surgeon. As gyngyn said, he's a product of his generation. I expect my generation to have the capacity to speak up against this bull****, or at the very least tolerate those who do.

I don't fault you for doing so, I see it as a futile effort. But you are free to do as you please.
 
I'd be more careful labeling something as "normal" as it implies that the opposite side is abnormal, which it's not.

So then the problem is the term heteronormative? I understand normal human behavior as ranged, not dichotomous, so a description of the most common variety of a normal behavior does not necessitate other behavior be abnormal.
 
How dare something normal for the overwhelming majority of people be treated as normal?

Sure.

But then, why not "Choose your future white-skinned wife wisely"? As far as I'm concerned, that sounds pretty normal.

Even better: "Choose your future cisgendered, white-skinned wife wisely." The statistical accuracy is glorious, isn't it?


Or you know... you could just grow the hell up and say "partner".
 
Does he even lift, bro?
Good life advice he gave you, though. You probably seemed like a person with great pontential an he decided to take his time and type out this nice email/letter for you.

Thank you lol. Literally just trying to pass on some advice from an experienced surgeon that I believed would've inspired you all a little more. I don't believe he meant anything negative towards women/race/etc. The dudes married to a Derm. and is Asian. It seems like everyone is making him out to be some typical old white bigot. All in all, just take what you want from his advice. Either mold it to your own or leave it alone. I don't see the reason to go all out and protest it, he has good intentions.
 
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