Worried about future of rad onc...

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rad_onculous

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I am a current MS4 planning on applying to rad onc this year, and I truly love the field as it stands now, but there are some aspects of it that I was worried about and was hoping for some thoughts from this board. I understand that reimbursements will go down in rad onc as in all medical fields over the next 10-20 years, and I am fine with that. What worries me more is a fundamental change in oncologic care or radiation oncology and how that might affect radiation oncologists (in a similar vein to Dr. Zietman's article from 2008).

1. One example is automated contouring. Programs can already contour some normal structures, and with the breakneck speed of computer science these days, I wouldn't be surprised if all contouring of tumor and normal structure volumes, with appropriate margins, in the next 15 years is done automatically. This would mean that each rad onc can save the 20% of the time they spend on contouring and see more patients, which may mean you need 20% less rad oncs.

2. Another example is a "silver bullet" even for some cancers. Attendings I've talked to are usually dismissive of this, saying that there are only a few drugs that substantially prolong life by themselves. But that's SO FAR. 20 years ago we barely knew anything about cancer biology and now there is so much known that if just a few of these things lead to "cures" of common cancers (or at least obviate the need for radiation), it could be problematic for rad oncs. What if there is a targeted cure for prostate cancer or SCC of the H&N? And while it is true that all cancers are different, many of them exhibit some fundamental similarities that, if exploited, could lead to simultaneous cures for multiple cancers at once (e.g. inactivation of the p53 pathway). Radiation therapy will probably always be required for at least some cases, but society may need much fewer radiation oncologists.

3. Limited billing codes. This ties in to the above. Rad oncs can only irradiate. Due to the limited billing codes, if there is a targeted cure for one or some cancers making radiation less important for those tumors, rad oncs will not be easily able to shift their practice to alternative treatments that are not already being done by current rad oncs. I am hopeful that as radiosensitizers are developed, rad oncs will own them, but in my rotations, I saw that the med oncs still were the ones in charge of radiosensitization.

4. Streamlined clinical decision-making. I have seen how important having a rad onc in the room in multidisciplinary clinic is to make the decision about whether to use radiation, and if so, what type. But similar to my first point above, could there be a future where, based on the imaging/pathology characteristics of the tumor and staging done by the med onc, the optimal plan (both radiation and chemotherapy) is designed by a "clinical decision-making support tool" a la Watson? In this case, you would only need one oncologist (and this would likely be the med onc) to see the patient, talk to them, hold their hand, etc. and dosimetrists and physicists to actually deliver the radiation. You might need 1-2 rad oncs per hospital to tweak the treatment plans for special cases, but I could see a lot of the decision-making and contouring automated by advanced AI.

Am I overthinking all of this, or does any of this have the potential to fundamentally change the rad onc job market or how fun rad onc is in my lifetime?

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There have been MANY, MANY threads on this precise topic by MS4s. For the love of all that's holy please do a search.

The short version: you are overthinking.

I have read all of the threads on this topic, but they did not address some of the stuff I mentioned above or they were very old (like 2002/2003). Thanks though :)
 
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You're overthinking and take for granted what it takes to be a radiation oncologist. It's not a tech job as some would have you think which is why we need 4 yrs in the field to even be allowed to treat patients.

Do we know the future of billing and health care.. I sure don't. My advice... Focus on getting in and the challenges that come with the training.

The landscape may be even more different by the time you get out.
 
I wouldn't worry about this one, other than the decreased reimbursement rates, which is a certainty. The autocontouring of normal structures still frequently leaves a lot to be desired, and I see no way in the foreseeable future that contouring of gross disease, microscopic disease, and appropriate setup margin could be accurately automated. This is the set of steps that requires a physician's understanding of human anatomy and physiology and an appreciation for margin status, pathology, patterns of spread, high risk areas, and patients' underlying health concerns on an individualized basis. I think your future is safe if you choose radonc.
 
But yah in 1000 years people are going to look back and think of how primitive doctors today were.
You honestly think our planet will survive another 1000 years? I doubt it.

Back to the original post:
Surely advances in med. oncology will happen. But just like that there will be advances in rad. oncology as well. In 10 years we may be able to accelerate particles on laser beams, in 15 years the first compact accelerators of this kind may become available and in 20 years it may become standard of care to treat solid tumors of different kinds with a cocktail of radiation all delivered during the same session from the same machine in 5' (50% protons, 30% carbons-, 20% oxygen-heavy-ions) using spot-scanning techniques with on-board real-time PET- and MR-imaging. Who know's?
 
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I heard IBM made a program that was more accurate in diagnosing disease than the average family practitioner. Eventually all physicians jobs (and all service and manufacturing jobs) will be automated. But that wont be in our or our grandchildrens'life span. The magic bullet will likely take even longer. But yah in 1000 years people are going to look back and think of how primitive doctors today were.

The computer being more accurate thing is basically garbage. What that is saying is that if you feed the computer certain data it can give you probabilities. For example 10 yo, RLQ pain, fevers, abdominal tenderness with + psoas sign has 92% chance of appendicitis, 4% chance of X, and so on. It completely neglects the fact that obtaining the pertinent history and performing an accurate physical exam are key parts of the patient encounter.
 
I am a current MS4 planning on applying to rad onc this year, and I truly love the field as it stands now, but there are some aspects of it that I was worried about and was hoping for some thoughts from this board. I understand that reimbursements will go down in rad onc as in all medical fields over the next 10-20 years, and I am fine with that.

Everyone has addressed the rest of your points, but please, please don't think like this. There is a good deal of brainwashing in the young folks entering medicine, and you should know that it is okay to not be okay with getting paid less tomorrow for the same thing you did today. This doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't make you a bad physician, despite what the folks in the ivory tower would have you believe.

Fight for your right to be paid fairly, and not be a scapegoat for a terribly run system.

That is all.
 
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Everyone has addressed the rest of your points, but please, please don't think like this. There is a good deal of brainwashing in the young folks entering medicine, and you should know that it is okay to not be okay with getting paid less tomorrow for the same thing you did today. This doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't make you a bad physician, despite what the folks in the ivory tower would have you believe.

Fight for your right to be paid fairly, and not be a scapegoat for a terribly run system.

That is all.

Agree with Sheldor. You should not be ok with the changes just because your primary care educators make you believe you should be. They are wrong.

But more importantly, there should be little more primary in your mind than what the future holds for you from all angles, especially the lifestyle. Let me let you in on a little secret: EVERY field of medicine is interesting. Yes, every one. If you look hard enough and surround yourself with the right people you will find that everything is interesting. Med students fail to realize this and base their decisions on some of the dumbest issues you could imagine. Seriously, like really dumb. Think about your life first because the match can ruin it if you havent thought that far. That said I think rad onc is the best field in medicine, but one of the big drawbacks is that you may not be able to stay where you want for residency or for jobs. This is a bigger deal than you realize, but should probably be the number 1 factor in your decision in my opinion.
 
wot is the average salary of a radonc guy in private practice??

There's a large range in salaries. The numbers currently will likely change by the time you finish practice.
 
wots the range now? i just wanna know hw much does an average joe get in radonc? thnx
 
wot is the average salary of a radonc guy in private practice??

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wots the range now? i just wanna know hw much does an average joe get in radonc? thnx

It's interesting how you go around to different forums asking what each specialty earns.
 
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Probably trying to figure out which clinic to rob. Run!


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$225k to $1 mill+

People should be aware that the "1+ mill" pertains to those very, very rare few who actually still own the linear accelerators (now most commonly owned by the hospital) and therefore obtain the technical component of the billing. In the vast majority who receive only the professional fees, I think $350K-$500K once you make partner is a much better estimate and varies depending upon location (i.e. payer mix), number of patients on treatment (workload), etc.
 
People should be aware that the "1+ mill" pertains to those very, very rare few who actually still own the linear accelerators (now most commonly owned by the hospital) and therefore obtain the technical component of the billing. In the vast majority who receive only the professional fees, I think $350K-$500K once you make partner is a much better estimate and varies depending upon location (i.e. payer mix), number of patients on treatment (workload), etc.
Correct.... just giving him the widest possible range ($225K -- starting in SoCal, saturated market, $1 mill+ owning your own accelerator in BFE once you've gotten everything off the ground).
 
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