Worst derm programs

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
D

derminator4

New Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
4
Reaction score
1
Hey all. I just wanted to get everyone impression on the worst dermatology residency programs out there. I have heard some bad things about certain programs, but wanted to get others opinions as well. I guess when it is all said and done, I will be a dermatologist no matter where I train, but I would at least like to know what programs to cancel interviews at if necessary.

The few programs I have heard are bad or have experience their "badness" myself:
1. Miami
Pros: see a lot of patients, have a lot of autonomy, Miami
Cons: work you to death, resident driven study/lectures, Saturday clinics

2. Medical College of George
Cons: Only like 1 or 2 faculty, not a lot of patients, concern of not feeling confident to enter solo practice
Pros: Plenty of down time to study since clinic is so small/limited

3. University of New Mexico
Pros: see a lot of patients, have a lot of autonomy, run your own clinic, will be prepared to enter solo practice for the most part
Cons: will screw their residents every chance they have, minimal dermpath exposure (there is a ton of dermpath on the boards!), small number of faculty, no electives, minimal to no cosmetic exposure, already in trouble with ACGME (? maintaining accreditation), faculty do not provide lectures, resident driven lectures/learning, no "free" days to study, limited Moh's/procedural exposure, very small program (very caddie), faculty treat residents with little respect, and the list goes on
Members don't see this ad.
 
I could be wrong, but in my experience, most core didactics are resident driven. I don't count it as a con.

At my program, we usually get one or two faculty lectures a week (not counting weekly grand rounds), but bolognia, spitz, and kodachromes are resident run. It's better that way imo. See one (as a first year), then do one/teach one as a second and third year.

I give you props for having the gumption to post what you did.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
I can't speak for programs quality, but if you look at the programs that did not match as some point in the past 4 years...

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Match-Data-Main-Match-Program-Results-2010-2014.pdf

University of Arizona
Rush Chicago (2012)
U Illinois Chicago (2012)
Tufts (2014, 2010)
Dartmouth (2013)
Rutgers, NJ (2012)
New Mexico (2013, 2010)
St Lukes, NY (2011)
SUNY, NY (2014)
Stony Brook, NY (2010)
Wright State Dayton, OH (2012)
Baylor Dallas, TX (2011)
UT San Antonio, TX (2011)

Not sure of the significance, but you can see that most "well respected" programs are not on the above list. A few are repeat offenders (Tufts, New Mexico) which is more concerning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
It's hard to make judgements about non-match before 2012 since 'all in' wasn't in effect yet.

Baylor Dallas for instance started up their program and just took outside the match on purpose iirc.
 
Dral said:
I could be wrong, but in my experience, most core didactics are resident driven. I don't count it has a con.

At my program, we usually get one or two faculty lectures a week (not counting weekly grand rounds), but bolognia, spitz, and kodachromes are resident run. It's better that way imo. See one (as a first year), then do one/teach one as a second and third year.

I give you props for having the gumption to post what you did.
Click to expand...

I completely agree that resident driven didactics are important. My concern is that some of the above programs are lucky if they get one or two faculty lectures a month or quarter. This is absurd in my opinion.

I am just trying to keep programs and people honest. I feel there are not a lot of repercussions or accountability for some of these derm programs. Some have the mind set that derm is so competitive that they "do not have to work hard to make their program attractive to applicants" or to "train the best dermatologist they can". They become complacent and it is the residents that suffer.

When it is all said and done, poor training results in bad dermatologist which results in poor patient care.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Dral said:
I could be wrong, but in my experience, most core didactics are resident driven. I don't count it has a con.

At my program, we usually get one or two faculty lectures a week (not counting weekly grand rounds), but bolognia, spitz, and kodachromes are resident run. It's better that way imo. See one (as a first year), then do one/teach one as a second and third year.

I give you props for having the gumption to post what you did.
Click to expand...
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: :clap::clap::clap:

I agree. At a LOT of programs, many of the conferences are resident driven -- esp. at textbook reviews, althought there may be a faculty member present. It's active learning. I would much rather be put "on the spot" by a fellow resident who keeps me in check with regards to knowing things, vs. making that same mistake in front of a faculty member or PD.
skinny_skin_skin said:
I can't speak for programs quality, but if you look at the programs that did not match as some point in the past 4 years...

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Match-Data-Main-Match-Program-Results-2010-2014.pdf

University of Arizona
Rush Chicago (2012)
U Illinois Chicago (2012)
Tufts (2014, 2010)
Dartmouth (2013)
Rutgers, NJ (2012)
New Mexico (2013, 2010)
St Lukes, NY (2011)
SUNY, NY (2014)
Stony Brook, NY (2010)
Wright State Dayton, OH (2012)
Baylor Dallas, TX (2011)
UT San Antonio, TX (2011)

Not sure of the significance, but you can see that most "well respected" programs are not on the above list. A few are repeat offenders (Tufts, New Mexico) which is more concerning.
Click to expand...
Definitely not surprised by some on that list. Some of those were flukes that just were too confident and didn't rank enough. Realize that Tufts was a new program that may have started, I believe around 2008/2009 and 2010 may have been its first match cycle.
 
derminator4 said:
I completely agree that resident driven didactics are important. My concern is that some of the above programs are lucky if they get one or two faculty lectures a month or quarter. This is absurd in my opinion.

I am just trying to keep programs and people honest. I feel there are not a lot of repercussions or accountability for some of these derm programs. Some have the mind set that derm is so competitive that they "do not have to work hard to make their program attractive to applicants" or to "train the best dermatologist they can". They become complacent and it is the residents that suffer.

When it is all said and done, poor training results in bad dermatologist which results in poor patient care.
Click to expand...
You are correct about this and I believe your heart is very much in the right place. I think the reason why it's not talked about much is bc there are so few derm programs to begin with and much better to go matched then unmatched. It's why residents can be reluctant to talk about these things to applicants as well as they are still in the gauntlet.

If anyone is concerned about anonymity, with respect to posting residency program reviews from their account, you can send your comments about certain programs you interviewed at to me thru PM and I can paste them in this thread. I think @derminator4 has a good format of a pros and cons list for each program.
 
Last edited:
Love the idea for this thread. Everyone always seems so scared to say anything that isn't 100% positive about any program. Obviously, this shouldn't be used to air dirty laundry, but there are definitely programs out there that are less desirable (for a multitude of reasons)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Yes. I guess New Mexico is not on probation. I think they got in trouble for violating the match in 2013.

I should say that some of the above programs I listed are not necessarily bad programs in the sense that the residents are well trained (Miami, New Mexico). I guess these are more "malignant" programs where training there would be miserable compared to other "cush" dermatology residencies.

I am more concerned about programs like Augusta, where there appears to be a lack of exposure to patients.
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
Love the idea for this thread. Everyone always seems so scared to say anything that isn't 100% positive about any program. Obviously, this shouldn't be used to air dirty laundry, but there are definitely programs out there that are less desirable (for a multitude of reasons)
Click to expand...
I guess one person's valid criticism is another person's dirty laundry (not speaking about you). Derm faculty aren't always receptive to constructive or valid criticisms about their program -- personalities or otherwise.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
derminator4 said:
Yes. I guess New Mexico is not on probation. I think they got in trouble for violating the match in 2013.

I should say that some of the above programs I listed are not necessarily bad programs in the sense that the residents are well trained (Miami, New Mexico). I guess these are more "malignant" programs where training there would be miserable compared to other "cush" dermatology residencies.

I am more concerned about programs like Augusta, where there appears to be a lack of exposure to patients.
Click to expand...
I was going to say in terms of training and volume, Miami is probably one of the better ones. It's definitely not a "cush" derm program (Saturday clinics, yikes!). Derm residents' definitions of what constitutes being "malignant" can vary a lot. Esp. if one wants an academic career vs. private practice career.

MCG (or I guess now Georgia Regents) faculty are actually very nice - Jack Lesher for example. It really can be hard to judge what constitutes lack of exposure as an applicant. Not every program is going to have the level of volume that NYU or UCSF does.
 
rexington1985 said:
Hi All, I just created this account to make this post a bit more anonymous. I'm not affiliated with any of the programs listed. Just felt like I needed to provide some input. I wasn't the strongest candidate for derm, so I did an away rotation at the University of New Mexico last year (Because, as you noted, I heard that it was a very weak derm program...easier to match into) I thankfully matched at another program, with a better rep. But wanted to share my experiences. First of all, I'm not posting this to discourage any of you. I'm not trying to stop you from ranking any programs. I'm not gaining anything from this, just wish I had had more knowledge of the program before wasting my month doing an away there over a better program. That aside, I know firsthand how difficult it is to match into Dermatology. Even if a program does suck (ie- UNM), I'd still say that you can rank it over not matching, if you'd rather match into derm somewhere than nowhere. But if you have some options, this might help you to choose where you'd rather end up. During my time at UNM derm, I saw firsthand what derminator4 is referring to. I have to agree. The department is INCREDIBLY small...like 4 full time faculty. They list more on their website, but nearly all of these were "volunteer" faculty in private practice (meaning you will see them maybe at grand rounds once in a while)The PD was ok, but was rarely present during my rotation. He didn't seem to help residents/students very much at all, and would almost always be on vacation somewhere. Seriously, the guy was gone almost the entire month while I was on my rotation, and the chair made an appearance like twice the whole time. So that left like 2 or 3 faculty members to supervise the clinics. They boasted that they had resident-run clinics, and that this was an advantage, but what this actually meant was that residents were stuck doing everything. This included a great deal of scutwork..ie-getting acne meds approved on a daily basis. Having to wait aimlessly just to find the one attending present to staff the patient (ie-walk in for two seconds then leave the patient room). The residents often stayed after hours to finish notes and do paperwork-related issues, unrelated to patient care. The faculty didn't seem to care about their residents at all. And yes, any teaching (which was very limited), was always resident driven. There rarely seemed to be time for teaching...maybe during the lunch hour once a week or so if they were lucky. Time for self study was very limited. And derm path was definitely weak. They had one pathologist from an outside Tricore that would come to grand rounds occasionally. And yes, dermpath is a huge part of derm boards. I'm learning this now as I'm studying derm firsthand. I'd just say to be cautious when looking for a program where you'll thrive. Resident run clinics might be a sign that a program is too malignant to help out their residents. Clinics would often go long and I never once saw an attending stepping in or helping the residents to finish. That said, there was one attending that I thought very highly of, a Mohs surgeon, but he'll be retiring soon, so he probably won't be present if/when you start there. The chair is also a Mohs surgeon, but he has a rep for being an arrogant, pompous older man who is very set in his ways. I was not at all impressed with his ego, and felt like he had a stick up his....Anyways, derm is derm, and matching somewhere is better than nowhere. But if you have a choice, it's better to match somewhere where you'll get solid training so that you can succeed in your career. It's also pretty obvious that a derm program isn't strong if they've gone unmatched twice in the last 3 to 4 years...and at one point were at risk of losing accreditation. Also pay attention to who people know. The UNM derm program tends to self train, ie PD trained there, as did the chair...connections are important in derm, and make a difference if you need attendings to make calls for you as you pursue fellowhship. If most of the faculty is home grown, it becomes harder to make connections at other programs. Just pay attention to all of these things when choosing where you'd like to end up. Anyways, I hope you all end up at programs where you'll be happy, and I'm sorry if this discouraged any of you. Good luck with the match!!
Click to expand...
attachment.php
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
No income tax, you mad? :)
 
derminator4 said:
New Mexico is the 2nd most dangerous state in the USA!

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2015/01/03/24-7-wall-st-most-dangerous-states/21214169/
Click to expand...

You will be surprised looking up crime statistics, a lot of major academic hospitals are located in rougher areas of the cities they are located in and are often surrounded by neighborhoods with high crime rates.

As far as programs go, MCG isn't bad. The hospital and VA clinics were pretty packed when I rotated there. I'm not sure what your information source was but exposure to patients and training didn't seem to be a problem. It definitely a smaller program but has nice faculty and happy residents. I don't have personal experience with Miami or New Mexico so can't comment there.
 
GuyWhoDoesStuff said:
Love the idea for this thread. Everyone always seems so scared to say anything that isn't 100% positive about any program. Obviously, this shouldn't be used to air dirty laundry, but there are definitely programs out there that are less desirable (for a multitude of reasons)
Click to expand...

Go on...
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I would take all negative comments with a grain of salt. Although I can't speak for Georgia or NM... I would hesitate to call Miami a bad program. I would thus also talk to someone who is familiar with the other programs before reaching that conclusion.

Miami is definitely a top 20, possibly 5-10 in my opinion (disclaimer: used to be associated with the medical school so also take what I say with a grain of salt).

Miami has a very large derm faculty whose specializaties run the gamut of the field (pediderm, gen derm, complex medical derm, derm surg, dermpath) and include world renown experts on ulcers, hair/nails, leprosy (yes there is a leprosy clinic), and contact derm. There are a number of programs that don't have specialty faculty in the aforementioned basic fields, let alone exposure to the latter.

The patient population is extraordinarily diverse (impoverished county system, VA system, cancer center, university hospital, private community hospital) and is the cachement basin for the entire carribean / majority of south america... which means tropical infections galore. They have admitting privileges with their own inpatient team (a pro if you want to learn to manage complex patients... a con if you're going into derm because you hate being a primary on patients and just want to consult).
I do know for a fact that the program director does a lecture every week and that there are 4 or 5 path sessions led by different attendings each week.

As for working on Saturdays...
a)The medical school runs local health fairs that include skin cancer screening stations that the residents staff... though its split up so each resident attends one per year
b)Faculty do occasionally have saturday am clinics though they are very infrequently staffed... resulting in very few saturdays worked per year (like 2-3 a year)
c)I'm not even sure if they still have saturday clinics

While covering 5 hospitals probably makes taking call annoying... the way to become comfortable managing TEN or paraneoplastic pemphigus is by doing it over and over again... and that's exactly what happens at Miami.

Does that result in longer hours? Probably. Does it break the work hour requirements? No. Is it still 100x less exhausting than a community gen surg residency... definitely.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
skinny_skin_skin said:
I can't speak for programs quality, but if you look at the programs that did not match as some point in the past 4 years...

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Match-Data-Main-Match-Program-Results-2010-2014.pdf

University of Arizona
Rush Chicago (2012)
U Illinois Chicago (2012)
Tufts (2014, 2010)
Dartmouth (2013)
Rutgers, NJ (2012)
New Mexico (2013, 2010)
St Lukes, NY (2011)
SUNY, NY (2014)
Stony Brook, NY (2010)
Wright State Dayton, OH (2012)
Baylor Dallas, TX (2011)
UT San Antonio, TX (2011)

Not sure of the significance, but you can see that most "well respected" programs are not on the above list. A few are repeat offenders (Tufts, New Mexico) which is more concerning.
Click to expand...
Tufts did not enter the match in 2010. So the unmatched status is just the result of an administrator error.
 
Our program is almost entirely resident-driven for didactics. Our faculty are pretty good about doing kodachromes, but they don't even come for our textbook lectures. It used to bother me, but as others have stated it is usually less stressful to have an older resident correct you than a faculty member. Do be on the lookout though... all 3 levels give our lectures and you can't count on the information being correct. I frequently hear things that are incorrect while in lecture and every once in a while I stumble across something that I have misunderstood for years because a resident-led lecture taught it to me incorrectly early on.

Find a program with protected reading time if such an option is available to you. I have frequently not completed the reading because we spend so much time in clinic (we do all the callbacks and handling of records, etc that would normally be considered office staff/MA/RN tasks). Our program sometimes assigns up to 3-400 pages of reading per week which any rational person can see is not reasonable with no protected reading time. Be careful how you ask about this; in our program students who ask about it are looked down on by our faculty.
 
estingray said:
Our program is almost entirely resident-driven for didactics. Our faculty are pretty good about doing kodachromes, but they don't even come for our textbook lectures. It used to bother me, but as others have stated it is usually less stressful to have an older resident correct you than a faculty member. Do be on the lookout though... all 3 levels give our lectures and you can't count on the information being correct. I frequently hear things that are incorrect while in lecture and every once in a while I stumble across something that I have misunderstood for years because a resident-led lecture taught it to me incorrectly early on.

Find a program with protected reading time if such an option is available to you. I have frequently not completed the reading because we spend so much time in clinic (we do all the callbacks and handling of records, etc that would normally be considered office staff/MA/RN tasks). Our program sometimes assigns up to 3-400 pages of reading per week which any rational person can see is not reasonable with no protected reading time. Be careful how you ask about this; in our program students who ask about it are looked down on by our faculty.
Click to expand...

Osteopathic dermatology?
 
estingray said:
Our program is almost entirely resident-driven for didactics. Our faculty are pretty good about doing kodachromes, but they don't even come for our textbook lectures. It used to bother me, but as others have stated it is usually less stressful to have an older resident correct you than a faculty member. Do be on the lookout though... all 3 levels give our lectures and you can't count on the information being correct. I frequently hear things that are incorrect while in lecture and every once in a while I stumble across something that I have misunderstood for years because a resident-led lecture taught it to me incorrectly early on.

Find a program with protected reading time if such an option is available to you. I have frequently not completed the reading because we spend so much time in clinic (we do all the callbacks and handling of records, etc that would normally be considered office staff/MA/RN tasks). Our program sometimes assigns up to 3-400 pages of reading per week which any rational person can see is not reasonable with no protected reading time. Be careful how you ask about this; in our program students who ask about it are looked down on by our faculty.
Click to expand...
I would not ask about protected reading time to faculty or to residents. They'll definitely let you know if they have it. If not, you have your weekends to read - much better than your IM and Surgery pals being in the hospital.

Our textbook conferences and journal club always had a faculty member to sort of direct the discussion. An upper level ran it, but if there was a clinical pearl or if there was something the faculty member had learned from their experience, they interjected. It was never pimping, but this will depend on the faculty member and how much of a dingus they are.
 
Shadelaw said:
While covering 5 hospitals probably makes taking call annoying... the way to become comfortable managing TEN or paraneoplastic pemphigus is by doing it over and over again... and that's exactly what happens at Miami.

Does that result in longer hours? Probably. Does it break the work hour requirements? No. Is it still 100x less exhausting than a community gen surg residency... definitely.
Click to expand...

That was pretty much the only downside I got from the residents when I interviewed there. Otherwise it seemed like a very solid program and I ranked it highly. The other issue, which adds to the first, is the traffic - just as bad as any other major city, and one of the residents told me they once spent more time driving one day between 3 hospitals than actually doing cases.
 
bump

any updates about programs? i am trying to use the information here to plan away rotations and where to or not to apply

any advice/insight would be much appreciated
 
dermillionaire said:
bump

any updates about programs? i am trying to use the information here to plan away rotations and where to or not to apply

any advice/insight would be much appreciated
Click to expand...

If you're expecting dirt about all programs, it's not going to happen. If you have questions about specific programs, you may have better luck.
 
PatsyStone said:
If you're expecting dirt about all programs, it's not going to happen. If you have questions about specific programs, you may have better luck.
Click to expand...
I just wanted to see if there were any updates regarding the New Mexico program. Also, curious to know other peoples thoughts on programs in Texas (Austin, Lubbock, San Antonio, Temple) and Arizona.
Unfortunately, my partner has ties to NM and is really pushing for me to do an away and target that program. I am concerned from what I have read about it, but am hoping they maybe got their act together over the past year. Any updates?
I am somewhat limited to the southwest due to my partner, so I want to target the best programs in this region for aways.
Any advice would be great. Thanks.
 
dermillionaire said:
I just wanted to see if there were any updates regarding the New Mexico program. Also, curious to know other peoples thoughts on programs in Texas (Austin, Lubbock, San Antonio, Temple) and Arizona.
Unfortunately, my partner has ties to NM and is really pushing for me to do an away and target that program. I am concerned from what I have read about it, but am hoping they maybe got their act together over the past year. Any updates?
I am somewhat limited to the southwest due to my partner, so I want to target the best programs in this region for aways.
Any advice would be great. Thanks.
Click to expand...

A handful of doctor residents University of New Mexico hospital may have to find a new place to finish their residency.

The university confirmed Friday that its Department of Dermatology lost its accreditation.

The Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education recently withdrew UNM’s dermatology department’s accreditation, effective June 30, according to the agency’s website.

http://nmpoliticalreport.com/40050/unm-dermatology-department-loses-accreditation/
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

A
  • Question
Derm Interest
Replies
1
Views
383
Dral
Dral
S
Differences/Similarities for an MD/PhD interested in matching derm
Replies
0
Views
148
stingyepidermis
S
M
Best gift for a recent derm graduate
Replies
1
Views
876
Dral
Dral
O
If you couldn’t do derm what specialty would you have chosen?
Replies
4
Views
1K
Slack3r
Slack3r
T
Severe red green colorblindness, can I still do derm?
Replies
1
Views
1K
carolp
carolp
Top