Worst Mass Shooting in U.S. History

[Pooh & Annie]

Why is auto "bad"?

Do you not know, or just not care, that there have only been a small handful of crimes committed with registered machine guns in the last 82 years? What "problem" is there to be solved?




We have a sighting of the Good Idea Fairy, who doesn't know anything about firearms, but nonetheless throws an idea for regulation out there with the vague idea that it might stick.

Everybody know that "hollow points" are bad, right, like automatic weapons. Who would oppose this simple, commonsense measure? Who?

Except that this particular Good Idea Fairy doesn't know that when rifle bullets have "hollow points" it's an artifact of the production process for well-balanced target bullets that don't expand. The GIF nonetheless speculates that banning target bullets will somehow reduce the lethality of bullets fired into people.


One of the reasons it's so frustrating dealing with gun control advocates is that they don't know anything about guns, but they think they're qualified to propose rules and restrictions anyway.

Automatic weapons should not be readily available to the public without INTENSIVE regulation, which is the case NOW. Tbere IS no problem. I didn't say ANYTHING needs to be changed. "Good idea" doesn't really describe this policy, because the contrary is so clearly stupid. "Machine gun death is clearly rare so let's relax the laws". Brilliant. Maybe folks should stop their schizophrenia meds because right now they don't feel schizophrenic.

I was very vague on the other stuff because like I said, I don't know where the "line" is exactly. I'm admittedly no expert and that's why I brought the other qualities up as possibly being too much, not definitevely "banable". But if you really believe we should relax the laws on automatic weapons, which would result in greater production and easy availability on the streets, then I don't for a second trust your judgement on the other issues.

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[WheezyBaby]

Automatic weapons should not be readily available to the public without INTENSIVE regulation, which is the case NOW. Tbere IS no problem. I didn't say ANYTHING needs to be changed. "Good idea" doesn't really describe this policy, because the contrary is so clearly stupid. "Machine gun death is clearly rare so let's relax the laws". Brilliant. Maybe folks should stop their schizophrenia meds because right now they don't feel schizophrenic.

I was very vague on the other stuff because like I said, I don't know where the "line" is exactly. I'm admittedly no expert and that's why I brought the other qualities up as possibly being too much, not definitevely "banable". But if you really believe we should relax the laws on automatic weapons, which would result in greater production and easy availability on the streets, then I don't for a second trust your judgement on the other issues.

The only real regulation on the currently 100-200k transferable machine guns is a more intensive background check. The real limiting factor behind private ownership of automatic weapons limited supply with correspondingly crazy prices

 

[pgg]

Automatic weapons should not be readily available to the public without INTENSIVE regulation, which is the case NOW. Tbere IS no problem. I didn't say ANYTHING needs to be changed. "Good idea" doesn't really describe this policy, because the contrary is so clearly stupid. "Machine gun death is clearly rare so let's relax the laws". Brilliant. Maybe folks should stop their schizophrenia meds because right now they don't feel schizophrenic.

I was very vague on the other stuff because like I said, I don't know where the "line" is exactly. I'm admittedly no expert and that's why I brought the other qualities up as possibly being too much, not definitevely "banable". But if you really believe we should relax the laws on automatic weapons, which would result in greater production and easy availability on the streets, then I don't for a second trust your judgement on the other issues.

I advocate repeal of the Hughes amendment, which closed the registry in 1986. It was totally unnecessary, and it was passed in a dishonest way in the first place.

I'm not really satisfied with the 1934 NFA but if gun control quit there, I'd accept that compromise, IF state law couldn't override federal law. As it is, I have several NFA registered firearms, but some states have ruled them illegal anyway.

The only other change to the NFA I'd really demand is removal of sound suppressors. These should be totally unregulated, the way they are in many countries with far stricter gun control than the US.


The funny thing about automatic weapons, is that they generally make select-fire weapons less effective, on the whole. The military teaching since the Vietnam era has been that M16 and its successors are always used in semi-auto mode, because burst or full auto just wastes ammunition and makes it harder to aim. Small unit machine guns like the SAW are there for suppressive fire to provide cover for maneuvering troops.

As a weapon used by an individual, automatic fire has little practical use. We'd probably be better off if lone crazy shooters were using machine guns. They'd run out of ammo in a hurry and put most shots into the ceiling.

 

[kumar28]

hey moderator..pgg or whatever. this thread is filled with messed up s*%$ from people who appear to not have a clue what they are talking about, specifically the person who created this thread. Why dont you do ur job then and moderate.

 

[ZzzPlz]

White Castle and chill bro

 

[Twiggidy]

I get sports shooting. Really. I understand. Target shooting is really fun as a skill. I can even somewhat get behind hunting. But overall, I don't understand the fascination with gun ownership in this country, especially when laws and consequences aren't fair for everyone in this country.

The intersting thing is, there are about the same number of motor vehicle deaths as their are firearm deaths

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

but you don't really see people running around saying we should ban cars or increase restrictions on driver's licenses. Again, I'm not a gun toting nut, mainly because if the police see me with a gun versus someone else, I'm going to get shot a lot faster and if I kill someone it's going to take a bigger argument for me to say I was protecting myself then it did George Zimmerman. That's my main reason for not owning a gun.

 

[WheezyBaby]

I get sports shooting. Really. I understand. Target shooting is really fun as a skill. I can even somewhat get behind hunting. But overall, I don't understand the fascination with gun ownership in this country, especially when laws and consequences aren't fair for everyone in this country.

The intersting thing is, there are about the same number of motor vehicle deaths as their are firearm deaths

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

but you don't really see people running around saying we should ban cars or increase restrictions on driver's licenses. Again, I'm not a gun toting nut, mainly because if the police see me with a gun versus someone else, I'm going to get shot a lot faster and if I kill someone it's going to take a bigger argument for me to say I was protecting myself then it did George Zimmerman. That's my main reason for not owning a gun.

The criminal justice system certainly needs reform, but I don't think that discussion should tie into 2A rights. Not going to get into Zimmerman other than say, regardless of the case itself, he's probably done as much to harm the perception of gun owners as Adam lanza

 

[deepstate2016]

I get sports shooting. Really. I understand. Target shooting is really fun as a skill. I can even somewhat get behind hunting. But overall, I don't understand the fascination with gun ownership in this country, especially when laws and consequences aren't fair for everyone in this country.

The intersting thing is, there are about the same number of motor vehicle deaths as their are firearm deaths

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

but you don't really see people running around saying we should ban cars or increase restrictions on driver's licenses. Again, I'm not a gun toting nut, mainly because if the police see me with a gun versus someone else, I'm going to get shot a lot faster and if I kill someone it's going to take a bigger argument for me to say I was protecting myself then it did George Zimmerman. That's my main reason for not owning a gun.

Actually there have been increasing restrictions on younger new drivers, as pointed out none of our rights are unlimited.

 

[Twiggidy]

or if you live in any area after a natural disaster and the law enforcement is no where to be found....or LA riots....

No one on Student "Doctor" forums live anywhere NEAR where anything similar to the LA riots were started. If you read anything about the LA riots, the police didn't go in but they basically blocked any access to going north of the I-10. To give insight to LA georgraphy, I-10 divides the "good' neighboorhoods from the "bad" neighborhoods. You can take my " " for whatever you think they mean.

 

[deleted480308]

No one on Student "Doctor" forums live anywhere NEAR where anything similar to the LA riots started. If you read anything about the LA riots, the police didn't go in but they basically blocked any access to going north of the I-10. To give insight to LA georgraphy, I-10 divides the "good' neighboorhoods from the "bad" neighborhoods. You can take me " " for whatever you think they mean.

Most docs don't live in those areas but they are still good examples of modern needs for civilian firearm capacity and body armor

 

[WheezyBaby]

No one on Student "Doctor" forums live anywhere NEAR where anything similar to the LA riots were started. If you read anything about the LA riots, the police didn't go in but they basically blocked any access to going north of the I-10. To give insight to LA georgraphy, I-10 divides the "good' neighboorhoods from the "bad" neighborhoods. You can take my " " for whatever you think they mean.

So I'm advocating for the right of individuals in those communities to keep the tools they need to defend themselves. The 2A is not exclusively for the well to do. Regardless, I had several friends, family, and colleagues stranded in the Katrina mess, if you want a non-LA riot situation

 

[Twiggidy]

Actually there have been increasing restrictions on younger new drivers, as pointed out none of our rights are unlimited.

I'm playing devil's advocate in the sense that it takes a mass killing for people to get up in arms about gun control with the same amount of people are killed with guns as people being killed in MVAs. Why does that lead CNN? Or why do 50 people need to be killed to make people upset. One person being killed should make people upset.

 

[Twiggidy]

Most docs don't live in those areas but they are still good examples of modern needs for civilian firearm capacity and body armor

I've lived in NYC and currently in California in an urban area. I've never once walked outside thinking, "You know what would make me feel better? Kevlar and a machine gun." That's crazy talk. If I ever walk outside and think like that, then I need to move to Australia or Europe FAST.

 

[WheezyBaby]

I'm playing devil's advocate in the sense that it takes a mass killing for people to get up in arms about gun control with the same amount of people are killed with guns as people being killed in MVAs. Why does that lead CNN? Or why do 50 people need to be killed to make people upset. One person being killed should make people upset.

Vast majority of individuals see the risk benefit balance with cars. Individuals don't necessarily apply the same principles (or weigh the benefits much less favorably) to firearms

 

[Twiggidy]

So I'm advocating for the right of individuals in those communities to keep the tools they need to defend themselves. The 2A is not exclusively for the well to do. Regardless, I had several friends, family, and colleagues stranded in the Katrina mess, if you want a non-LA riot situation

I get what you're saying, but I'm speaking up for people such as Marissa Alexander
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-florida-selfdefense-idUSKBN0L02NQ20150127

Self defense doesn't always look the same to juries.

 

[deleted480308]

I've lived in NYC and currently in California in an urban area. I've never once walked outside thinking, "You know what would make me feel better? Kevlar and a machine gun." That's crazy talk. If I ever walk outside and think like that, then I need to move to Australia or Europe FAST.

And yet korean shop owners had to fight off mobs from their stores....you should never be helpless

 

[WheezyBaby]

I get what you're saying, but I'm speaking up for people such as Marissa Alexander
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-florida-selfdefense-idUSKBN0L02NQ20150127

Self defense doesn't always look the same to juries.

The concept of warning shots are a very specific discussion and relevant to that case. So as not to detail the thread, I'll be brief and say I agree with your last statement. But I don't think any adjustments to firearm rights/restrictions are the direction to go to alter that (and I'm not sure how they would)

 

[Arch Guillotti]

wheres the moderator??

 

[Twiggidy]

And yet korean shop owners had to fight off mobs from their stores....you should never be helpless

yeah. they had guns alright including the one that shot the girl in the back of the head when she "believed" she was stealing juice which many believe was the driving force

shot. dead. over juice (which turned out she had money in her hand when the police arrived)

store owner got probation.........thus taking me back to my original point. Consequences need to be just as fair and equal as everyone's equal right to own a gun

 

[Twiggidy]

No man....these are discussions that NEED to be had. No one's yelling. No one's cursing. Everyone's just presenting their side. This is much more interesting that the "End of Anesthesia Days" / "CRNAs are Taking Over" topics

 

[WheezyBaby]

No man....these are discussions that NEED to be had. No one's yelling. No one's cursing. Everyone's just presenting their side. This is much more interesting that the "End of Anesthesia Days" / "CRNAs are Taking Over" topics

Could do without the 25 image posts a page though. It's sensory overload when blade does it and there's actually something there other than **** posting

 

[pgg]

hey moderator..pgg or whatever. this thread is filled with messed up s*%$ from people who appear to not have a clue what they are talking about, specifically the person who created this thread. Why dont you do ur job then and moderate.

Why don't you join the discussion and present your reasoned, carefully formulated opinion on the matter?

 

[Arch Guillotti]

No man....these are discussions that NEED to be had. No one's yelling. No one's cursing. Everyone's just presenting their side. This is much more interesting that the "End of Anesthesia Days" / "CRNAs are Taking Over" topics

uh, what?

 

[Pooh & Annie]

The only real regulation on the currently 100-200k transferable machine guns is a more intensive background check. The real limiting factor behind private ownership of automatic weapons limited supply with correspondingly crazy prices

True. Good.

 

[fancymylotus]

I've lived in NYC and currently in California in an urban area. I've never once walked outside thinking, "You know what would make me feel better? Kevlar and a machine gun." That's crazy talk. If I ever walk outside and think like that, then I need to move to Australia or Europe FAST.

Agreed. I'm a NY girl and I've never felt this way..

 

[fancymylotus]

In 2014 there were over 32,000 deaths in car crashes. If we reduced the speed limit to 25mph nationwide, that number would drop quite a bit. The right to drive 55 isn't even in the Constitution, so let's get to work on that

They dropped the speed limit by a lot in the boroughs. Fairly certain people are still driving like *****s and hurting themselves with the same frequency as before.

 

[deleted480308]

yeah. they had guns alright including the one that shot the girl in the back of the head when she "believed" she was stealing juice which many believe was the driving force

shot. dead. over juice (which turned out she had money in her hand when the police arrived)

store owner got probation.........thus taking me back to my original point. Consequences need to be just as fair and equal as everyone's equal right to own a gun

I don't know the case so I can't comment on it

I do know gun owners did save their property from rioters during the riots

 

[pgg]

The only real regulation on the currently 100-200k transferable machine guns is a more intensive background check.

True.

Agreed ... not counting the extra tax.

The real limiting factor behind private ownership of automatic weapons limited supply with correspondingly crazy prices

Good.

What do you mean, good?

Prices that are artificially elevated because of a government-limited market for anything is bad.

Or are you saying you're cool with the current state of affairs, that only rich people can afford these guns, and too bad so sad, if you're poor?

I've made the argument again and again that gun control is fundamentally racist and classist. The entirety of the NFA and its $200 tax (imposed in 1934 and approximately equal to $3000 in today's dollars), and the Hughes Amendment extension to it in 1986, have served NO purpose but to restrict ownership to a wealthier class of people.

Surely you don't really think that's good?

 

[BLADEMDA]

I've lived in NYC and currently in California in an urban area. I've never once walked outside thinking, "You know what would make me feel better? Kevlar and a machine gun." That's crazy talk. If I ever walk outside and think like that, then I need to move to Australia or Europe FAST.

I've never once been concerned about about the Gun laws in my State. I never worry about if I'm going to get shot going to the grocery store or getting gas. I believe the Concealed Carry Laws actually are beneficial to most Citizens including myself.

Of course, I can see the argument based on fear and misinformation about the need to ban the AR-15. I don't argee with that opinion but fully respect the right of any US citizen to hold such a view and vote accordingly. Despite my CORRECT understanding of the 2nd Amendment I recognize the AR-15 may get banned again and there is ZERO chance SCOTUS will overturn any such law.

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[deleted480308]

I've never once been concerned about about the Gun laws in my State. I never worry about if I'm going to get shot going to the grocery store or getting gas. I believe the Concealed Carry Laws actually are beneficial to most Citizens including myself.

Of course, I can see the argument based on fear and misinformation about the need to ban the AR-15. I don't argee with that opinion but fully respect the right of any US citizen to hold such a view and vote accordingly. Despite my CORRECT understanding of the 2nd Amendment I recognize the AR-15 may get banned again and there is ZERO chance SCOTUS will overturn any such law.

I don't respect anyone's "right" to use govt to violate my rights....it's simply not ok

 

[BLADEMDA]

 

[BLADEMDA]

I don't respect anyone's "right" to use govt to violate my rights....it's simply not ok

Get used to govt. violating your rights as per SCOTUS the Constitution is a living, breathing document open to interpretation.

 

[chfo]

Typical cis white male perpetuating the patriarchy by using an assault weapon against poor desperate African Americans.

That senior is a racist.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Typical cis white male perpetuating the patriarchy by using an assault weapon against poor desperate African Americans.

That senior is a racist.

You just couldn't hold back the racism. Let me guess only minorities commit crimes.

 

[chfo]

You just couldn't hold back the racism. Let me guess only minorities commit crimes.

No, on the contrary, the senior citizen is the criminal in this situation, he was the aggressor.

That's the problem with the second amendment: people like that senior citizen should have no right to possess firearms, especially when they contribute to the oppression of minorities.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

No, on the contrary, the senior citizen is the criminal in this situation, he was the aggressor.

That's the problem with the second amendment: people like that senior citizen should have no right to possess firearms, especially when they contribute to the oppression of minorities.

Yea, I get the sarcasm there but don't see why race and religion always seem to make its way back to your core arguments.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

What do you mean, good?

Prices that are artificially elevated because of a government-limited market for anything is bad.

Or are you saying you're cool with the current state of affairs, that only rich people can afford these guns, and too bad so sad, if you're poor?

I've made the argument again and again that gun control is fundamentally racist and classist. The entirety of the NFA and its $200 tax (imposed in 1934 and approximately equal to $3000 in today's dollars), and the Hughes Amendment extension to it in 1986, have served NO purpose but to restrict ownership to a wealthier class of people.

Surely you don't really think that's good?

There are several issues there.

Access to machine guns VERY difficult: yes, of course that's good.

Market manipulation: usually bad. Not uncommon in the American system of government and big business.

Ok with current state of affairs with regards to machine guns: very much so.

Current status is racist: No.

Current system is classist: you definitely have to have money. But "classist" would require a specific intent that I don't think was there.

So yeah, I've gotta say I can't complain about the machine gun situation.

 

[Twiggidy]

Yea, I get the sarcasm there but don't see why race and religion always seem to make its way back to your core arguments.

The only reason why i "season" the conversation with a dab of race is by the fact that if I (a black man) kills a person defending my home I'll have to argue self defense a lot harder then a white man. Just they way America works. Just ask George Zimmerman. Just ask Marissa Alexander. That's why I take my chances with not owning firearms. The consequences of using it aren't always fair. It's tough to argue that.

 

[Pooh & Annie]

Yea, I get the sarcasm there but don't see why race and religion always seem to make its way back to your core arguments.

Because he's oppressed by lefty. It's a battle to survive everyday for this guy.

 

[chfo]

Yea, I get the sarcasm there but don't see why race and religion always seem to make its way back to your core arguments.

Remember when Trayvon Martin was killed by a Hispanic man in Florida?

Who do Democrats want to disarm the most? White men.

If they gave a damn about saving lives from gun violence, they would be on the south side of Chicago trying to fix things.

 

[deleted480308]

Get used to govt. violating your rights as per SCOTUS the Constitution is a living, breathing document open to interpretation.

the constitution didn't grant my rights, they are mine as a human....no amount of changing the words on that document changes my rights, just what the govt tells itself it can do to me

 

[Pooh & Annie]

the constitution didn't grant my rights, they are mine as a human....no amount of changing the words on that document changes my rights, just what the govt tells itself it can do to me

"Rights" are a human construction that are defined by individuals and made universal by those in power. If you think you have a "right" to diddle eighth graders I disagree, as do most governments. You can practice your "right" if you want, and accept the consequences. Many people, good and bad, have done so.

 

[deleted480308]

"Rights" are a human construction that are defined by individuals and made universal by those in power. If you think you have a "right" to diddle eighth graders I disagree, as do most governments. You can practice your "right" if you want, and accept the consequences. Many people, good and bad, have done so.

It's creepy that you jumped to child molestation... that's gross

 

[RadOncDoc21]

The only reason why i "season" the conversation with a dab of race is by the fact that if I (a black man) kills a person defending my home I'll have to argue self defense a lot harder then a white man. Just they way America works. Just ask George Zimmerman. Just ask Marissa Alexander. That's why I take my chances with not owning firearms. The consequences of using it aren't always fair. It's tough to argue that.

I agree 100%.

 

[pgg]

Current system is classist: you definitely have to have money. But "classist" would require a specific intent that I don't think was there.

So, if the government put a $20,000 surcharge on the purchase of permits to hold public gatherings, and poor people weren't able to exercise their free speech rights to the same extent as rich people, you'd be OK with that as long as the government didn't spell out its "intent" to exclude poor people?

Or if the government ruled that only 1,000 churches could be open at any one time in the US, and only rich communities could afford to have them, that'd be OK?

What if the military decided to quit spending money on housing, and just decreed that a squad of Marines would be housed in any home they chose? But the homeowner could pay a tax of $10,000 to avoid quartering troops? Would Pooh & Annie say, oh well, too bad for poor people?


But because the right we're talking about is protected by the 2nd Amendment, you think it's OK if the government arbitrarily excludes everyone who isn't rich.

Why don't you care about the rights of the poor? Are you really so blinded by your desire to regulate and ban guns, that you accept this?

 

[periopdoc]

Agreed. I'm a NY girl and I've never felt this way..

It's funny how becoming a victim of violent crime can really change one's perception perspective on things like this.

In the same way that surviving a horrible car accident can give you a new appreciation for seat belts.

Edited because I hate it when I post on the fly and use the wrong word.

 

[fancymylotus]

It's funny how becoming a victim of violent crime can really change one's perception on things like this.

In the same way that surviving a horrible car accident can give you a new appreciation for seat belts.

I got jaws of lifed out of a car in college and I still don't always wear my seatbelt. Till my car or fiance yells at me


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Twiggidy]

But trust me, I see both sides, especially what @sb247 is saying. I live in earthquake country and a 8.0 with subsequent pandemonium does cross my mind (along with the North Korean invasion) but until the justice system gets it's act together I'll just play the odds. Risk vs benefit assessment.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

A handgun is one thing, but an all out guerilla war militia army is a little extreme in my opinion.

Is Trump broke?