"Would you do it again?" - nonacademics

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So to everyone who would not choose this path again...any recommendations on what an undergrad interested in clinical psych should look into instead? Psychiatry? Psychiatric nursing/Psych NP? LCSW? Stay the heck away from mental health? :confused:

This is what I'm wondering too. I'm a person that reads psych texts and research papers in his free time, for personal enjoyment. Now, with so much negative talk, I wondering if I should do something else, or if the negativity is more a reflection of the fact that in all kinds of fields there are significant problems, and clin psych is no different (and there may be some self-selection going on here, too).

It's very important to me to have a career related to psychology and mental health. I've started looking at something like an MPH with behavioral health focus (http://www.health.usf.edu/publichealth/catalog_current/programs/cfhbehavioralmph.pdf), but I don't have a good idea on what the day to day responsibilities would be, nor job prospects.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

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So to everyone who would not choose this path again...any recommendations on what an undergrad interested in clinical psych should look into instead? Psychiatry? Psychiatric nursing/Psych NP? LCSW? Stay the heck away from mental health? :confused:

I like being in clinical psych but:

Psychiatry seems absolutely awful to me. I used to work with psychiatrists and it is 15 minute meds checks all day long. A few psychiatrists do traditional psychotherapy, but the ones I knew that did that were research professors who did therapy "on the side".

I had a few friends who were going to go the Clinical PhD route and then chose psychiatric nursing/nurse practitioner. In the area I lived, there was a huge shortage of psychiatrists (3 month + waitlists), and many people got their meds from nurse practitioners. However, that in itself is controversial with physicians who do not like nurse practitioners prescribing for various reasons.

The two above options (physican/nurse) will pay way more than LCSW/LPCC/MFT jobs. All of the above options require you to pay for school, unlike fully-funded PhD's. I honestly don't understand the point of doing a PsyD. I respect people who have PsyD's as clinicians and colleagues, I just don't understand why anyone would chose to go that route and pay for schooling.

Don't stay away from mental health though! For myself, I got into this field because I believe that people with psychological disorders tend to be a marginalized, "forgotten" group. I have a strong belief in working for social justice, and psychological disorders are tangled up with poverty,child abuse, and a variety of social ills. I think that perhaps the fact that mental health professionals do not garner the respect and salaries that other medical professionals obtain is a direct reflection of the stigmatized population that we serve. This does not make working in this field a bad idea; in fact, it makes it that much more important.
 
Can I also ask the path for you? I assume you did not graduate undergrad with a Nursing degree right? So what is the educational path look like?

You're right, my degree is in psych, not nursing. I'm doing what is called a "direct entry" or "graduate entry" nurse practitioner program. It's for someone who has a bachelors in a non-nursing field that wants to become a NP. You do ~12 months of accelerated generic nursing to get your RN, and then spend the next ~24 months getting your MSN and specializing. Once I'm done I'll be licensed to assess, diagnose, and treat psychiatric disorders, including prescribing and therapy (not that I'll be doing much therapy at the beginning, to say the least). Once I'm through, I will be a family psychiatric nurse practitioner.

It's true that nursing has become very competitive (my program this year received 500+ applicants and had an 11% acceptance rate. It's not as competitive as a clinical psych PhD, but still pretty competitive). However, if you are competitive at all for a clinical psych PhD you should get into one of these programs. I was accepted to 4 of the 6 programs I applied to, the last 2 programs both invited me to interview and I turned them down as I had already been admitted to my top choice. I think coming from such research heavy background, but still having significant clinical experience all relating to mental health made me stick out in a good way. Also my grades were strong, good GREs, good goal statement and LORs from profs, etc. I had several friends who seemed to have really great backgrounds get waitlisted or rejected, so it isn't at all a cakewalk. Maybe I just had good luck this time around.

In some ways I'm sad that I left clinical psychology, as I think the training is truly remarkable. The opportunities I had to develop critical thinking skills in my lab were truly unique (like the advanced stats modeling I got to do on my honors thesis and learning how to do clinical assessments under the guidance of my faculty mentor and grad students). It's really a shame, but I was just too nervous about the field's future to stick with it. Overall, I will be in far more demand as a psych NP. I really enjoy the biological sciences (I loved microbiology and anatomy/physiology), so that helped sway me as well. Of course, I will be taking out loans for school, although I am hoping to pay them back quickly with HRSA forgiveness (are clinical psychologists eligible for this as well?) Anyway, in nursing I can still do teaching and research, so I'm pleased with my decision.
 
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You're right, my degree is in psych, not nursing. I'm doing what is called a "direct entry" or "graduate entry" nurse practitioner program. It's for someone who has a bachelors in a non-nursing field that wants to become a NP. You do ~12 months of accelerated generic nursing to get your RN, and then spend the next ~24 months getting your MSN and specializing. Once I'm done I'll be licensed to assess, diagnose, and treat psychiatric disorders, including prescribing and therapy (not that I'll be doing much therapy at the beginning, to say the least). Once I'm through, I will be a family psychiatric nurse practitioner.

It's true that nursing has become very competitive (my program this year received 500+ applicants and had an 11% acceptance rate. It's not as competitive as a clinical psych PhD, but still pretty competitive). However, if you are competitive at all for a clinical psych PhD you should get into one of these programs. I was accepted to 4 of the 6 programs I applied to, the last 2 programs both invited me to interview and I turned them down as I had already been admitted to my top choice. I think coming from such research heavy background, but still having significant clinical experience all relating to mental health made me stick out in a good way. Also my grades were strong, good GREs, good goal statement and LORs from profs, etc. I had several friends who seemed to have really great backgrounds get waitlisted or rejected, so it isn't at all a cakewalk. Maybe I just had good luck this time around.

In some ways I'm sad that I left clinical psychology, as I think the training is truly remarkable. The opportunities I had to develop critical thinking skills in my lab were truly unique (like the advanced stats modeling I got to do on my honors thesis and learning how to do clinical assessments under the guidance of my faculty mentor and grad students). It's really a shame, but I was just too nervous about the field's future to stick with it. Overall, I will be in far more demand as a psych NP. I really enjoy the biological sciences (I loved microbiology and anatomy/physiology), so that helped sway me as well. Of course, I will be taking out loans for school, although I am hoping to pay them back quickly with HRSA forgiveness (are clinical psychologists eligible for this as well?) Anyway, in nursing I can still do teaching and research, so I'm pleased with my decision.


You should have no problem paying back your NP loans. Psychiatric NPs in my area (west tx and nm) earn $150K+ first year out and even more if you do contract work....this is for 40 hours a week.. if you wish to do therapy, you can work half time with meds/assessment and the other half therapy and still pull down well over $100K
 
Yes,right now you can only prescribe in two states, the Indian Health Service, Guam, and in the Departmen of Defense. However, more states will eventually pass RxP. I think Montana and New Jersey will be next, but cannot say for sure!
 
You should have no problem paying back your NP loans. Psychiatric NPs in my area (west tx and nm) earn $150K+ first year out and even more if you do contract work....this is for 40 hours a week.. if you wish to do therapy, you can work half time with meds/assessment and the other half therapy and still pull down well over $100K

That sounds like a pretty good deal...maybe the answer to this can be found somewhere else (if so, it would be great if someone could direct me there), but what are the pros and cons of psych NP v. psychiatry MD/DO? I guess that is a very subjective question, but I would still love some ideas and opinions on this.
 
You should have no problem paying back your NP loans. Psychiatric NPs in my area (west tx and nm) earn $150K+ first year out and even more if you do contract work....this is for 40 hours a week.. if you wish to do therapy, you can work half time with meds/assessment and the other half therapy and still pull down well over $100K

thanks, edieb! This makes me feel better and wow, those salaries sound fantastic. Everyone keeps telling me that Psych NPs (especially those who are trained in the family track) are in huge demand and that I shouldn't worry about the debt, but I'm very debt averse so I worry anyway. :laugh:
 
That sounds like a pretty good deal...maybe the answer to this can be found somewhere else (if so, it would be great if someone could direct me there), but what are the pros and cons of psych NP v. psychiatry MD/DO? I guess that is a very subjective question, but I would still love some ideas and opinions on this.

It depends on where you plan on practicing (independent practice state or not, for example). As a psychiatrist you will make more money and have a lot more prestige, but you must also go to school for much longer... and spend a lot of grueling years in med school. In my program I only have to "get through" one year of basic RN training, of which there will be a psych portion. It seems much more manageable, to me. An NP still makes good money, but is limited in the scope of their practice. Also, as a NP there are politics to deal with, although the raging argument about NPs vs. MDs/DOs seems to be much more active on sdn than it is in actual daily reality. Day to day, I cannot tell the difference between what psych NPs and psychiatrists do in my area... but I currently live in an ind. practice state. It is a lot of med management, though, so you should have an interest in psychopharm and physical health along with mental health, otherwise you might hate it.
 
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and have a lot more prestige.

I would just point out that it kind depends on how you define the word. If you define it as you will, generally speaking, be the leader of the treatment team or the "head honcho" in a service program, yes, I suppose. But, in my experience, when other medical professional want to know what going on diagnostically with their patients, or think their patients need to therapy, they come to us. Psychiatrists are really only thought of us med experts in many hospital settings. Especially in the VA where I am now. I would say they have alot of prestige associated with them either.
 
I would just point out that it kind depends on how you define the word. If you define it as you will, generally speaking, be the leader of the treatment team or the "head honcho" in a service program, yes, I suppose. But, in my experience, when other medical professional want to know what going on diagnostically with their patients, or think their patients need to therapy, they come to us. Psychiatrists are really only thought of us med experts in many hospital settings. Especially in the VA where I am now. I would say they have alot of prestige associated with them either.

Oh, I didn't mean that psychiatrists have more "prestige" than psychologists, I mean that one would have more prestige in their career as an MD vs a NP. I'm not too worried about the prestige factor, hehe.
 
It depends on where you plan on practicing (independent practice state or not, for example). As a psychiatrist you will make more money and have a lot more prestige, but you must also go to school for much longer... and spend a lot of grueling years in med school. In my program I only have to "get through" one year of basic RN training, of which there will be a psych portion. It seems much more manageable, to me. An NP still makes good money, but is limited in the scope of their practice. Also, as a NP there are politics to deal with, although the raging argument about NPs vs. MDs/DOs seems to be much more active on sdn than it is in actual daily reality. Day to day, I cannot tell the difference between what psych NPs and psychiatrists do in my area... but I currently live in an ind. practice state. It is a lot of med management, though, so you should have an interest in psychopharm and physical health along with mental health, otherwise you might hate it.

Thanks for all this info. It is much appreciated. What are the two states right now where you can prescribe? And could you point me to an example of the type of NP program you mentioned for those that did not major in nursing? I'm wondering what the debt looks like for a NP Student and just overall information on the field. I originally wanted to be a psychiatrist, but quickly switched paths once I realized they did not spend time with patients. However, I've taken all pre-med requirements and thus have interests in fields surrounding it.
 
Thanks for all this info. It is much appreciated. What are the two states right now where you can prescribe? And could you point me to an example of the type of NP program you mentioned for those that did not major in nursing? I'm wondering what the debt looks like for a NP Student and just overall information on the field. I originally wanted to be a psychiatrist, but quickly switched paths once I realized they did not spend time with patients. However, I've taken all pre-med requirements and thus have interests in fields surrounding it.

An NP can prescribe in all 50 states, with varying degrees of independence. NPs have complete independent practice in states like New Mexico, Oregon, Arizona, and others. A psychologist can prescribe in New Mexico and Louisiana, if they've completed a post-doc masters pharm degree... I'm not too familiar with medical psychology, tbh.

You can do a search for direct entry or graduate entry nursing programs at allnurses for loads of info (be warned, that site can be kind of a cesspool). There are programs at Columbia, Yale, Penn, Boston College, UCSF, OHSU, Seattle U, Rochester, Illinois - Chicago, just to name a few. Also, the pre-med requirements might not cut it for applying to these programs. Unfortunately, some of them require that you take the specific nursing requirements, even though you've already taken the more in-depth pre-med classes.

The debt is significant for these programs, unless you're lucky to be an in-state resident at a public direct entry program (there are a few). A much cheaper option is to go get your ADN or accelerated BSN at a state school and then apply for a state MSN program and work part-time while you do your MSN. Of course, that's a much slower option, as well.
 
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Thanks for all this info. It is much appreciated. What are the two states right now where you can prescribe? And could you point me to an example of the type of NP program you mentioned for those that did not major in nursing? I'm wondering what the debt looks like for a NP Student and just overall information on the field. I originally wanted to be a psychiatrist, but quickly switched paths once I realized they did not spend time with patients. However, I've taken all pre-med requirements and thus have interests in fields surrounding it.

I honestly don't know that your role as a psych NP would be much different. There's obviously a significant amount of variability from person to person, but all of the NP's I've rotated with have functioned nearly identically to physicians in terms of time spent with patients and the types of work they did.

And yes, as far as I understand it, the current RxP laws for psychologists require completion of a ~2 year psychopharm masters, passing a licensing exam, and then supervised practice under a physician for either a certain number of cases or certain number of years, whichever comes first (I believe it's something like 3 years or a few hundred cases, but that's mostly a guess).
 
I honestly don't know that your role as a psych NP would be much different. There's obviously a significant amount of variability from person to person, but all of the NP's I've rotated with have functioned nearly identically to physicians in terms of time spent with patients and the types of work they did.

So what does that look like? How much time are they spending with patients? And how much more time does a psychologist usually spend?
 
So what does that look like? How much time are they spending with patients? And how much more time does a psychologist usually spend?

Slow down. First, how much time a person spends with their patients is, ultimately, up to them. You might have some pressure from upper management, or just pure patient volume in busy hospital systems or the VA, but psychiatry ultimately pinned themselves into the 15 minute med check paradigm.

Second, how much time do I spend with a patient for what, exactly? The standard therapy session is 50 minutes. But sometimes they go 60 minutes. The standard PE session (per protocol) is 90 minutes. If I'm doing a clinical diagnostic interview, well it takes as much time as it takes. It may be a 30 minute chat if the guy is a frequent flyer at my facility. It may be a couple hours over a couple sessions if i want to do a more structured thing and maybe a MMPI or something.
 
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Second, how time so I spend with a patient for what, exactly? The standard therapy session is 50 minutes. But sometimes they go 60 minutes. The standard PE session (per protocol) is 90 minutes. If I'm doing a clinical diagnostic interview, well it takes as much time as it takes. It may be a 30 minute chat if the guy is a frequent flyer at my facility. It may be a couple hours over a couple sessions if i want to do a more structured thing and maybe a MMPI or something.

Sorry, does PE stand for psychiatric evaluation? Is that a task exclusively performed by psychologists at your facility?
 
Sorry, does PE stand for psychiatric evaluation? Is that a task exclusively performed by psychologists at your facility?

No. Prolonged Exposure therapy.

And yes, that is only performed by psychologists at my VA (and probably most VAs). I have yet to meet a psychiatrist on staff here that is interested in doing anything but med management and "supportive therapy. ("that must be tough for you")":laugh:
 
So what does that look like? How much time are they spending with patients? And how much more time does a psychologist usually spend?

As erg mentioned, ultimately, it's going to be up to the individual practitioner, even if the decision is essentially made at the hiring stage (e.g., taking a position where it's been made clear your primary role will be in brief check-ins and medication management). I do want to point out that I haven't worked specifically with psych NPs, though; my experiences with NPs has been limited solely to primary care. The longest appointments I've seen were probably in the 60 minute range at an HIV clinic, with the NPs and physicians themselves taking up about 10-15 minutes of that; the rest of the time patient's was spent with nursing, psychology, social work, and walking to/from the lab.

If you want to be a psych NP who spends significantly more time with your patients, that will ultimately be up to you, although I don't know that every employer out there would be supportive (again, though, I'd imagine this is something they'd make known up front). You're obviously free to open your own practice and/or join a group practice and provide psychotherapy, just be sure you've received enough training in it to do so competently.
 
I like being in clinical psych but:

Psychiatry seems absolutely awful to me. I used to work with psychiatrists and it is 15 minute meds checks all day long. A few psychiatrists do traditional psychotherapy, but the ones I knew that did that were research professors who did therapy "on the side".

I had a few friends who were going to go the Clinical PhD route and then chose psychiatric nursing/nurse practitioner. In the area I lived, there was a huge shortage of psychiatrists (3 month + waitlists), and many people got their meds from nurse practitioners. However, that in itself is controversial with physicians who do not like nurse practitioners prescribing for various reasons.

The two above options (physican/nurse) will pay way more than LCSW/LPCC/MFT jobs. All of the above options require you to pay for school, unlike fully-funded PhD's. I honestly don't understand the point of doing a PsyD. I respect people who have PsyD's as clinicians and colleagues, I just don't understand why anyone would chose to go that route and pay for schooling.

Don't stay away from mental health though! For myself, I got into this field because I believe that people with psychological disorders tend to be a marginalized, "forgotten" group. I have a strong belief in working for social justice, and psychological disorders are tangled up with poverty,child abuse, and a variety of social ills. I think that perhaps the fact that mental health professionals do not garner the respect and salaries that other medical professionals obtain is a direct reflection of the stigmatized population that we serve. This does not make working in this field a bad idea; in fact, it makes it that much more important.

Slightly off topic for the rest of the post but I thought I'd chime in. With the application process being as competitive as it is there are some competitive applicants for the funded PhD programs that may have to sit around for 2 or 3 cycles before they can get admitted to a program for reasons out of their control. Some people have to ask how long do we want to delay our career (and lost / extremely reduced income) to continue applying. If an opportunity pops up at a reputable PsyD program (good research opportunity, quality training, reasonable student to faculty ratio, fair APA internship placements...) it may be better to get started on your graduate studies and put in the extra effort to make yourself as attractive to internship sites as possible. The cost of student loans may be off set when waiting 3 years for a funded program. Maybe not if your looking for just therapy (then masters program certainly make more sense) but for those who are looking to specialize in something that may allow them a slightly higher income than the average bear.
 
I thought I'd chime in here. I'm nearly done with fellowship and the licensure process, and so I'm on the market for a full-time job... I would never, ever, do it over again.

I really did everything I was supposed to: I went to a top college and went straight through to a top graduate program. I was fortunate to be fully-funded, graduated debt-free, and even saved up a bit of money. I worked as fast as I could to finish, published and did great externships with leading experts, and finished 10 years of education (4 college + 4 grad + 1 internship + 1 fellowship). I got speciality training, since specialization was said to be the secret to success, and I am basically struggling to find a full-time job that pays decent.

The Job Market (aka good luck finding a job, even if you can stomach the poor pay)
The job market is terrible right now, and only getting worse. The reason that so many psychology students are desperately turning towards the VA is because most hospitals and HMOs don't hire psychologists anymore (e.g. Kaiser in So. Cal.) or have largely replaced us with MSWs/MFTs. The supply is also exceeding the demand so much, that most places are looking for people with several years post-licensed experience in that role, so they don't need to train you. So after 10+ years of education/training, you are still deemed unqualified for a $65K-$75K job.

In private practice, most patients never care where you went to school, and now that many are going to unaccredited internships and can't work for federal jobs, the private practice market is becoming even more flooded with PsyDs/master's level therapists since that is the only place they can work. Furthermore, the comments by psychgeek about full-time clinical practice above, about having to work late hours and be emotionally drained, are a scary turn off to most.

The VA is not a Sanctuary (aka don't assume you can just work for them, and you will sell your soul if you do)
Everyone sees VAs as the last vestige for psychologists, but this is only because the government is subsidizing these jobs for now. This will slowly disappear due to the VA now allowing MSWs and LPCs. I would also not hang your hopes on a VA if you want to be in a major metropolitan area, because the number of new grads are flooding the market now, they are getting 50-100+ applicants per position. Most of the time, an opening only pops up when someone retires/dies/moves or new funding for a niche program comes through. Much of the time these positions are either unadvertised or go to people who already work there, former colleagues, or fellows who are in the right place at the right time. I would have thought that after working in multiple VAs for years with sparking credentials, I could easily find a job. Not so. It is tremendously frustrating to work your butt off, and realize that it is not a 'meritocracy' at all. Don't just assume you can get your degree and work for the government, unless you're lucky or willing to move to less-desirable areas.

Working at the VA is also a giant bureaucratic mess, you work with a very unrepresentative sample of society, and your pay/level will not move up much, so there's a lot of downsides you're trading in for 'security.' Psychology was my passion in undergrad, and while I do find some of my work rewarding, working for the VA is very draining and very much a 9-5 'job' that most people are glad to come home from. I sit through 3 hour meetings about nothing relevant, work with Axis II colleagues that cannot be fired (not to mention the patients), and do silly requirements because everyone is paranoid about 'central office' and losing their job. If I wanted that kind of gig, I would have taken a corporate job that pays much better and don't have to deal with so much distress and dirty work.

Psychiatry (aka even if you don't care about being rich, you will appreciate the opportunity/flexibility)
Considering most psychology students take at least 6-7 years to licensure, plus another 1-2 years of research, doing psychiatry does not take any longer. Psychiatrists make about 3x as much as us (which I knew), but I didn't realize that earning potential also has other benefits. I never was motivated by greed, but I didn't understand that it's not just about earning power, but about job opportunities and flexibility, which we lack.

As a psychiatrist, you basically get recruited for jobs anywhere you want, my friends graduating from residency have headhunters calling them for 30+ openings. I am currently hunting and begging for jobs that require relocation for that $65-75K. Furthermore, as a psychiatrist, you can work for 1-2 days/week and make just as much as a psychologist. With your free time, you can spend time with your family, do pro-bono work, go fly fishing, etc. For those of you who say they would hate doing medication management all day, you could do that for 1-2 days/week to pay the bills, and then do psychotherapy 3-4 days/week if you really wanted. As a psychiatrist, you have much more flexibility in how you spend your time and the job opportunities and pay is bountiful. Demand for psychiatry is only going up, while demand for psychology is going down the toilet. If you absolutely love mental health and can't imagine doing anything else, even if you like psychotherapy, become a psychiatrist or psychiatric NP.

Comparable Fields (aka psychology provides the worst investment : outcome ratio, particularly for good students)
I went to an Ivy-League undergrad, and watched my friends go into business, law, and medicine. I want to add to Jon Snow's comments: While there is no guarantee/job security in the business/law fields, what is different is that if you are bright/hard-working and go to a top-15 business or law school, there are large corporations that will hire you every year for $135-160K + large bonuses. Yes, not everyone can get these jobs, but most of my friends have. Thus, if you are in the top 10%, you will do well. When things don't, you can always jump ship go work for a different company. Certainly if you have the intelligence/work ethic to get into a fully-funded PhD program, you could have. I had better grades that most of my friends in college, and they have established their careers and are doing quite well, buying houses, unlike me. I lived quite frugally for the last decade, and never cared about the 'finer things,' but you need money to buy a house in a big city, and it is ridiculously expensive. For you fellow idealists: money won't make you happy, but it will put a roof over your head.

The problem is that in psychology, even if you are the top 10% or even top 1%, there are no "companies" or group practices in the private sector that recruit the best and brightest. The VA or most Hospitals do not really care where you went to school as long as it was decent and APA-accredited. Many of my colleges went to no-name schools or counseling programs, and make the same pay as me. In fact, lots of these people do better since they specialized in a small niche (TBI/polytrauma) and have more experience than you when such an position.

I actually made more money when I was 20 years old (halfway through college) during a corporate summer internship than I do now 8 years later as a fellow. I was never expecting to get rich in psychology, but I didn't expect that getting higher education would DECREASE my earning potential. I am also now considered 'overqualified' to do anything, since I have lots of education and no real-world translatable work experince.

Prestige/Respect (aka the general public and medical professionals will not respect you, you are not a "real doctor")
Speaking as male here, this is a terrible profession to be in as a straight male. Psychology has gone from being a male-dominated field to one that is 95% female/gay male in new graduating classes. I never minded this originally, but you really are an outcast, since most men will not work in an emotionally-difficult and poorly-paying job. Furthermore, the predominance of women has largely eroded the earning power since women will traditionally accept less pay and part-time positions.

While I'm all for gender equality, males in society traditionally still bear the brunt of being the breadwinner and supporting the family. In the dating market, being a psychologist is seen as 'less than' since women know you don't make money. When I go to alumni events or mixers, everyone is surprised and curious that I became a psychologist (when I could have done other things). Because PsyD program are allowing everyone to become a psychologist, your acquaintances will know poor students or their 40+ year-old second-career Moms who are getting the same degree you do. They don't recognize the difference between a fully-funded PhD & Alliant/Agrosy, and so they lump you together with those people, which degrades your credibility.

Furthermore, in multidisciplinary settings, while you may wear a white coat are considered part of the 'team,' you are seen as 'less than' the physicians, and often just seen and treated like a mid-level provider to deal with the patients that they don't want to deal with. Being a psychologist collaborating with other providers is great on paper, but in the real world, your job duties look a lot more like a social worker, and we are also being replaced by 'life/health coaches' nowadays if you are paying attention to changing trends.

I'm all for intrinsic motivation and I don't hang my self-esteem on others, but there is a real-world practicality about others respecting you and what you do, and being able to provide for the people you love. Sadly, that is far from the case.

Final Thoughts (aka goodbye psychology)
I have busted my butt for the last decade of my life. My CV is stellar and I have nothing to show for it, with no job offers,and just entering a field that is only going to get worse in the decades to come. As a result, I am actively looking to leave psychology and transition back into the business world. Caveat emptor, I would never, ever recommend this field to anyone, and particularly the bright and hardworking since it is an exercise in learned helplessness. Psychology is a sinking ship, get off the boat while you can.
 
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Well... Even though I'm going to be entering a fully funded counseling Ph.D. program in the Fall, this thread has officially made me depressed about my career.

Any particular niches of psychology that those of you in the job world have found lucrative? I realize money isn't everything, but I'm just curious.
 
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Well... Even though I'm going to be entering a fully funded counseling Ph.D. program in the Fall, this thread has officially made me depressed about my career.

Any particular niches of psychology that those of you in the job world have found lucrative? I realize money isn't everything, but I'm just curious.

Let the thread perhaps serve as a counterbalance to any unchecked optimism you might've had, but at the same time, realize that with any field, if you ask who's unhappy (particularly in an online forum), you're going to get a lot of feedback from people who're upset (and likely rightly so) without quite as many responses from the content folks.

Not that clinical psych is without fault, mind you. It seems to be a particularly turbulent time in the field, and in healthcare as a whole, during which many fields (psych included) are going to have to significantly re-think the way they approach what they do and how they do it.

As for niche areas, if you like kids, pediatric neuropsych could be a good choice. Forensic work also has the potential to be lucrative if you can handle the workload and adversarial atmosphere.
 
Sounds like he sold his soul though, huh? Promoting insurance company discrimination against people with mood issues. I couldn't do it.

Dr. E

P.S. I guess we are just talking about rich people though. In that case, screw them all!:laugh:

I laugh at this "sell out" talk. We all sell out. Dude, you chose a career that is essentially about telling people what is wrong with them. Get off your horse.
 
Dude, you chose a career that is essentially about telling people what is wrong with them. Get off your horse.

I am curious what supervisor taught you that the totality of your job is to "tell people whats wrong with them." I have NEVER come across anyone with that attitude towards clinical work, not even neuropsychologists or out of touch academics...
 
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Let the thread perhaps serve as a counterbalance to any unchecked optimism you might've had

I don't even know if "counterbalance" would be the right word. The sentiments expressed in this thread are not simply concerns about problems in the field, they are stating outright that the field is so bad that one should not even enter it. Actually, they're even beyond that, with people having devoted years of time, money, and effort, only to find that the field is so bad that they're getting out.

I certainly wasn't blinded by idealism, but the talk on this board has me bothered to the point where I'm seriously questioning going down the career path which I had long desired and worked toward (and which is now open to me). It's making me seriously entertain the prospect of doing something else. What that something else would be, I don't know (and that is another thing that seriously bothers me).
 
I certainly wasn't blinded by idealism, but the talk on this board has me bothered to the point where I'm seriously questioning going down the career path which I had long desired and worked toward (and which is now open to me). It's making me seriously entertain the prospect of doing something else. What that something else would be, I don't know (and that is another thing that seriously bothers me).

This board was part of my decision not to pursue clinical psychology, as silly as it sounds. It certainly wasn't the main reason why I decided not to pursue the field (working in the clinical psych lab and talking with grad students, profs, and people in other fields like medicine helped convince me otherwise) - but I really appreciate how candidly people speak about the field on this forum.
 
I laugh at this "sell out" talk. We all sell out. Dude, you chose a career that is essentially about telling people what is wrong with them. Get off your horse.

And here I am thinking I'm in a field that's about promoting wellness, personal growth, advocacy, and societal progression! :roll eyes: lol (Your confusing the field of Psych with that of Advertising - the actual field that's essentially about telling people what's wrong with them)

P.S. - if someone in this field can even figure out what's "right" and "wrong"...I would appreciate it if you could share the knowledge...cause after taking a few psych class I feel like the idea of "wrong" gets beaten outta you...as you come to realize that such abstract labels are actually arbitrary judgments, based on "in-group/out-group" mentalities, and undeniably culturally defined.
 
And here I am thinking I'm in a field that's about promoting wellness, personal growth, advocacy, and societal progression! :roll eyes: lol (Your confusing the field of Psych with that of Advertising - the actual field that's essentially about telling people what's wrong with them)

P.S. - if someone in this field can even figure out what's "right" and "wrong"...I would appreciate it if you could share the knowledge...cause after taking a few psych class I feel like the idea of "wrong" gets beaten outta you...as you come to realize that such abstract labels are actually arbitrary judgments, based on "in-group/out-group" mentalities, and undeniably culturally defined.

+1 amen!
 
I don't even know if "counterbalance" would be the right word. The sentiments expressed in this thread are not simply concerns about problems in the field, they are stating outright that the field is so bad that one should not even enter it. Actually, they're even beyond that, with people having devoted years of time, money, and effort, only to find that the field is so bad that they're getting out.

I certainly wasn't blinded by idealism, but the talk on this board has me bothered to the point where I'm seriously questioning going down the career path which I had long desired and worked toward (and which is now open to me). It's making me seriously entertain the prospect of doing something else. What that something else would be, I don't know (and that is another thing that seriously bothers me).

I think it's interesting that "physician" has been elevated as the "better" path on this board. I've read things online about physicians moaning about how high malpractice is and how "Obamacare" is going to destroy medicine, and how they wish they never got into medicine. I guess you can't win.

Work sucks then you die
 
I think it's interesting that "physician" has been elevated as the "better" path on this board. I've read things online about physicians moaning about how high malpractice is and how "Obamacare" is going to destroy medicine, and how they wish they never got into medicine. I guess you can't win.

Work sucks then you die

Check out the recently started thread on the change to health care in America. I guess our field is just a little behind the medical field once again. :p
 
I've been feeling disillusioned and burnt out as well. I'm currently finishing up internship and got a great postdoc, but I just feel so burnt out and unmotivated after everything grad school and all these applications processes put me through that I've lost my drive and energy and question whether or not I really want to do this anymore. I always knew when starting grad school that I would be research focused and on the academic path. I knew others got burnt out and changed course, but I always thought I was up for the challenge and can make it, and maybe I still can, but right now I just don't feel the passion and drive for it I used to.

It all started when I didn't match for internship the first time I applied 2 years ago. I was one of the top students in the program, had done everything right, applied broadly, and still didn't match. Everyone thought I was so awesome and were so shocked that I didn't match and it was so hard to see everyone's disappointment and fear that they would one day go through the same thing if it happened to someone like me, although everyone was very supportive of me. I worked on improving my clinical hours further as well as my interviewing skills, and did match the 2nd time. However, it was to one of my lower ranking sites, and involved me being forced to move all the way across the country far from any of my friends or family so I was taken far away from any source of social support. And the internship I got is actually a great top ranking site, and it's great training, but I just feel like I don't care anymore. I felt that after 2 years of spending so much effort, time, and money (over $10,000) applying, as well as countless hours of anxiety and depression over the whole situation, that internship has got to be this amazing life changing experience to be worth all that, right? At least it was built up in my mind that way. But although I got a great site in the end it just didn't seem worth it. I'd never had to work so hard and go through so much for any one thing in my life and it just seemed so pointless since I don't even want to be a clinician, although I enjoy doing a little bit of clinical work as part of a primarily research position. Sure getting into grad school was hard too, but that process just seemed so much more fair and reasonable so that by working hard you would get in somewhere, it just made more sense. But for internship having a good CV, being good at what you do and being hardworking and well-liked don't necessarily matter; I've realized it's all just a crap shoot in the end. I've also seen others in my program, including a close friend of mine, go through the same thing when they were also well qualified. I hate seeing the pain they've gone through as well, and questioning their own competence and future career in psychology. It's really heartbreaking to see and I hate what this field is doing to new young psychologists in breaking their spirit, even for people who are so hard working with some much potential and previously had so much passion for what they do. It kind of makes me hate this field and what it takes to be successful. I feel like networking and schmoozing and putting on an act help you more in this field than real competence, intelligence hard work and passion for what you do.

This year I also tried applying for faculty positions hoping to skip the postdoc since I've already felt so burnt out and ready to have a real job and not be so poor. My brother never even went to college but he makes 3 times my income in a manual labor job. But applying for faculty jobs didn't work out and has drained me further going through that laborious process with no offers. I do have a great postdoc and I'm sure I can be successful but I'm just so drained now from all of this and not even sure this will make me happy anymore, but not sure what else I might want to do. I hope once I get started with it some of my energy and excitement for what I do will come back, but I'm just not sure at this point. But after being in school and preparing for this career for so long it seems impossible to consider other options.

Sorry I can't be more positive, but that's how I feel right now...
 
It all started when I didn't match for internship the first time I applied 2 years ago. I was one of the top students in the program, had done everything right, applied broadly, and still didn't match. Everyone thought I was so awesome and were so shocked that I didn't match and it was so hard to see everyone's disappointment and fear that they would one day go through the same thing if it happened to someone like me, although everyone was very supportive of me. I worked on improving my clinical hours further as well as my interviewing skills, and did match the 2nd time. However, it was to one of my lower ranking sites, and involved me being forced to move all the way across the country far from any of my friends or family so I was taken far away from any source of social support. And the internship I got is actually a great top ranking site, and it's great training, but I just feel like I don't care anymore. I felt that after 2 years of spending so much effort, time, and money (over $10,000) applying, as well as countless hours of anxiety and depression over the whole situation, that internship has got to be this amazing life changing experience to be worth all that, right? At least it was built up in my mind that way. But although I got a great site in the end it just didn't seem worth it. I'd never had to work so hard and go through so much for any one thing in my life and it just seemed so pointless since I don't even want to be a clinician, although I enjoy doing a little bit of clinical work as part of a primarily research position. Sure getting into grad school was hard too, but that process just seemed so much more fair and reasonable so that by working hard you would get in somewhere, it just made more sense. But for internship having a good CV, being good at what you do and being hardworking and well-liked don't necessarily matter; I've realized it's all just a crap shoot in the end. I've also seen others in my program, including a close friend of mine, go through the same thing when they were also well qualified. I hate seeing the pain they've gone through as well, and questioning their own competence and future career in psychology. It's really heartbreaking to see and I hate what this field is doing to new young psychologists in breaking their spirit, even for people who are so hard working with some much potential and previously had so much passion for what they do. It kind of makes me hate this field and what it takes to be successful. I feel like networking and schmoozing and putting on an act help you more in this field than real competence, intelligence hard work and passion for what you do.

Maybe post this on the internship thread? I've talked to some people on the forum who still feel ashamed about not matching and I think reading about other people's experiences can really help show how broken the system is (so people don't take it as personally).
 
FWIW, my undergrad advisor (who wasn't even in clinical psych) warned me that there is a strong chance of feeling very jaded at the end of one's doctoral program and thereafter. She said she felt that way, and knew others that did. She said that that will likely eventually fade.

Likewise, Einstein supposedly said, "One had to cram all this stuff into one's mind for the examinations, whether one liked it or not. This coercion had such a deterring effect on me that, after I had passed the final examination, I found the consideration of any scientific problems distasteful to me for an entire year."

So, becoming jaded is a very strong possibility, and is not necessarily an indictment of the field of clinical psychology. I think one of the issues about all these posts is separating out the jaded states, versus the systemic problems of the field that would be legitimate reasons for doing something else, even if one loves psychology.
 
So, becoming jaded is a very strong possibility, and is not necessarily an indictment of the field of clinical psychology. I think one of the issues about all these posts is separating out the jaded states, versus the systemic problems of the field that would be legitimate reasons for doing something else, even if one loves psychology.

I think, whether or not one is jaded or not, all the responses answer the question posed. The question wasn't, "are you jaded with the field?" or "is clinical psychology a good job/field?" It was, "would you do it again?" Seems that a few would and some would not. So I don't see any issues with "all these posts," personally. Dismissing people's answers because they may or may not be jaded (perhaps temporarily, either way), is a good way to get confirmation of whatever position you held before reading the responses but not a good way to get an answer to the question.
 
I think, whether or not one is jaded or not, all the responses answer the question posed. The question wasn't, "are you jaded with the field?" or "is clinical psychology a good job/field?" It was, "would you do it again?" Seems that a few would and some would not. So I don't see any issues with "all these posts," personally. Dismissing people's answers because they may or may not be jaded (perhaps temporarily, either way), is a good way to get confirmation of whatever position you held before reading the responses but not a good way to get an answer to the question.

I didn't get the feel that the poster was attempting to dismiss the posts, and I actually agree that there does seem to be an overriding theme of jadedness. That doesn't make the issues any less real, but it does lend some context to the negativity, and suggests that at least some of it might fade as the jadedness dissipates. It also makes sense in many ways--if you train for nearly a decade to do just about anything, odds are it isn't going to live up to all of your expectations, especially if that decade was a rough one. This is why I've chosen to simply try not to have any expectations regarding essentially anything; I take each experience as it comes, focus on enjoying the positive aspects of what I'm doing, and all the while planning ahead as best I can so that wherever I end up next is somewhere I enjoy.

I feel that many of the issues brought up in this thread thus far aren't at all unique to clinical psych. The ones that are definitely need to be the focus of efforts to effect change, and those efforts are best made from within the field itself (at least IMO).
 
I think, whether or not one is jaded or not, all the responses answer the question posed. The question wasn't, "are you jaded with the field?" or "is clinical psychology a good job/field?" It was, "would you do it again?" Seems that a few would and some would not. So I don't see any issues with "all these posts," personally. Dismissing people's answers because they may or may not be jaded (perhaps temporarily, either way), is a good way to get confirmation of whatever position you held before reading the responses but not a good way to get an answer to the question.


I think personal life situations matter alot too, which no one has mentioned. My husband has been here with me other than a few months my first year when he was finishing up his degree. He has a full time job, which helps with the financial situation. Since his job is more "mobile" than mine, in that he can pretty easily find a job in his field anywhere, we've agreed as a couple to go wherever the internship/job takes me. I think I am lucky to have such an ideal family situation for being in a clinical psych program.

For others that go through this long long schooling process in long-distance relationships or who have family ties that restrict them geographically, I can see how this could be a very demoralizing experience, and not worth it. It's almost like being in a military family, with frequent moves and little choice over where you're going to end up.
 
Telling people what's wrong with them? I honestly don't understand how that sums up this career.

That poster often says some really goofy stuff. The interesting things is, I don't think this person has even had much (if any) clinical training or exposure to practice yet. I think i remember him admitting to this, but even if not, most of his posts make that pretty clear.
 
I think, whether or not one is jaded or not, all the responses answer the question posed. The question wasn't, "are you jaded with the field?" or "is clinical psychology a good job/field?" It was, "would you do it again?" Seems that a few would and some would not. So I don't see any issues with "all these posts," personally. Dismissing people's answers because they may or may not be jaded (perhaps temporarily, either way), is a good way to get confirmation of whatever position you held before reading the responses but not a good way to get an answer to the question.

I wasn't in any way dismissive of the posts. On the contrary, I am taking these posts VERY seriously; just read my post previous to the one you commented on.


I didn't get the feel that the poster was attempting to dismiss the posts, and I actually agree that there does seem to be an overriding theme of jadedness. That doesn't make the issues any less real, but it does lend some context to the negativity...

I feel that many of the issues brought up in this thread thus far aren't at all unique to clinical psych.

Yes, this is what I was getting at (though I'm leaving it as an open question as to what issues are unique to clinical psych).

The potential of becoming temporarily jaded (however long that may be) is a different matter than systemic issues unique to the field that could cause serious career problems.
 
Googled for threads in medicine, this was in the first one.

"Things are bad in medicine these days and are only going to get worse before they get better (I only hope to see the 'better' during my own practice). The days of nice salaries, societal prestige, and professional autonomy are being steadily eroded away. I personally would not recommend medicine to others considering the field unless they are obstinately set on it. I was obstinate, but even I have questioned my choice a couple times. Always came out glad I chose this route, but the doubt was there. The thing about medicine is that its a rollercoaster of a field. Your best days will invigorate you, but the bad days are really, really bad. Frustration is common."

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=539704
 
Googled for threads in medicine, this was in the first one.

"Things are bad in medicine these days and are only going to get worse before they get better (I only hope to see the 'better' during my own practice). The days of nice salaries, societal prestige, and professional autonomy are being steadily eroded away. I personally would not recommend medicine to others considering the field unless they are obstinately set on it. I was obstinate, but even I have questioned my choice a couple times. Always came out glad I chose this route, but the doubt was there. The thing about medicine is that its a rollercoaster of a field. Your best days will invigorate you, but the bad days are really, really bad. Frustration is common."

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=539704

I'm wondering what the heck I'm going to do with my life right about now, haha. Well, kind of funny, but not really. :eek:
 
My husband keeps jokingly (maybe) telling me that I need to quit school and we can open a Papa Johns. Apparently the franchisees get 6 figure yearly bonuses...
 
Googled for threads in medicine, this was in the first one.

"Things are bad in medicine these days and are only going to get worse before they get better (I only hope to see the 'better' during my own practice). The days of nice salaries, societal prestige, and professional autonomy are being steadily eroded away. I personally would not recommend medicine to others considering the field unless they are obstinately set on it. I was obstinate, but even I have questioned my choice a couple times. Always came out glad I chose this route, but the doubt was there. The thing about medicine is that its a rollercoaster of a field. Your best days will invigorate you, but the bad days are really, really bad. Frustration is common."

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=539704

And I'm certain I've seen identical comments posted in the pharmacy forum.
 
There are definitely medical specialities that are struggling to stay afloat (OB/GYN...the insurance alone for private practice is prohibitive for most), less lucrative for the amount of time invested (e.g. cardiothoracic surgery) while others are definitely still doing just fine: Plastics, Rads, Neuro, PM&R, etc.
 
Just joined, first post, but here goes. I am in my final years of my clinical program, and the job prospects for the next 5-10 years look terrible in this economy. Nothing is getting better even though the media continues to lie about it all. So in essence, I feel like I might have wasted a good 4 years of my life pursuing this specific degree if there is no ultimate payout in the end due to the global depression we are currently in.
 
Just joined, first post, but here goes. I am in my final years of my clinical program, and the job prospects for the next 5-10 years look terrible in this economy. Nothing is getting better even though the media continues to lie about it all. So in essence, I feel like I might have wasted a good 4 years of my life pursuing this specific degree if there is no ultimate payout in the end due to the global depression we are currently in.

So, you feel that grad school was a waste of time because this field has not proven to be completely impervious to the effects of a major global recession/borderline depression? Did you have a better plan? :rolleyes:

A lot of complaints I am seeing here feel like many optimists having their bubble burst. No career works of a strict meritocracy. The best jobs are about who you know and not always about where you were trained. The big name institutions rarely pay you better than private hospitals or anything in a cushy suburb unless you are a superstar that adds to their reputation. No career field is recession-proof. We may all be working at a Wal-mart near in in the next two decades (physicians included). If you don't believe me, look at all the "Obamacare" discussions going on throughout the board.

The thing about the choices we make is that we all take a chance when we go to school. The truth is that the bottom could fall out of any field at any time. The fact is that in any field there are those that will do well (above the average) and those that will not do so well. I have seen evidence of both in family and friends in a variety of fields. It is not just a good education that makes you automatically successful. My father came to this country decades ago, leaving behind a successful accounting firm in which he was a partner. He never attained that level of success again in his career. Why? Because English is his third language and his accent made him hard to understand. He is still the guy that his bosses go to when really complex financial accounting shows up on someone's desk. I have known other members of my family who have succeeded at making large amounts of money. They have all had a good business sense. Their professional skill played a small part in their success (other than being competent in their field). There are no perfect fields in this world. Everything has its own pitfalls and there will always be those that are unhappy with the outcome.

There are certain areas of the field that definitely need to be fixed (internship issues, lack of strict boundaries regarding what we do, lax credentialing of schools, etc). However, a lot what people are complaining about are simply luck. Some people have gotten great opportunities and others have not.
 
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