Would You Ever Choose A PsyD?

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Grenth

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I was just about ready to accept a funded, university based PsyD spot at a program I was in love with when out of the blue my reach school offered me an interview. Reach school offered me a spot in their program which is a funded PhD and I'm in shock, this school seems way out of my league in fact I was wait-listed for an interview.

I thought this would be a no-brainer, but I'm feeling a little paralyzed. The programs have similar stats and name recognition, 100% APA match, terrific EPPP pass rates, great practicum sites, similar research that aligns well with my interests. Both are offering very similar funding packages. I have pause because my interview at the PhD program was rough, I did not get a warm feeling from the students or faculty, the location is high COL, it's a five year program versus four at the PsyD who will allow me transfer in credits from my MA. I adored the location, students, and faculty at the PsyD program and I liked the PhD program but just not as well.

Would I be a idiot to turn down a funded PhD for a Psyd? Is this just impostor syndrome for a program that I feel like a pity accept at?

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I was just about ready to accept a funded, university based PsyD spot at a program I was in love with when out of the blue my reach school offered me an interview. Reach school offered me a spot in their program which is a funded PhD and I'm in shock, this school seems way out of my league in fact I was wait-listed for an interview.

I thought this would be a no-brainer, but I'm feeling a little paralyzed. The programs have similar stats and name recognition, 100% APA match, terrific EPPP pass rates, great practicum sites, similar research that aligns well with my interests. Both are offering very similar funding packages. I have pause because my interview at the PhD program was rough, I did not get a warm feeling from the students or faculty, the location is high COL, it's a five year program versus four at the PsyD who will allow me transfer in credits from my MA. I adored the location, students, and faculty at the PsyD program and I liked the PhD program but just not as well.

Would I be a idiot to turn down a funded PhD for a Psyd? Is this just impostor syndrome for a program that I feel like a pity accept at?
Unless you really want to be academic faculty (particularly tenure track faculty), there seems to be no reason not to go for the PsyD program. It's funded, it has good outcome, a great reputation, and you seem excited and enthusiastic about it. It sounds like it's one of the few PsyD programs that really escapes all of the more common issues common to many/most PsyD programs, like lack of funding, poor match rate, lack of research opportunities, etc,
 
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I agree with futureapppsy2. If all of the financial considerations are equal and the outcome data are almost identical, I think you need to consider what your goal is and which program is the best fit. If you have zero interest in academia, such as becoming a tenured faculty member, than the PsyD program makes more sense especially if you felt more comfortable there. In contrast, the PhD program is ideal if you want to pursue a career in academia, especially if your POI at the university is taking new students and will be a good mentor. To note, I want to say that both schools will likely prepare you for clinical practice and research, just that each likely has different strengths based on the program design.

My suggestion would be to write out all of the pros/cons for attending each program, be they big or small, and discuss them with a mentor from your MA program as well as a close friend or family member who knows you very well. Its a big decision, so take your time.

Congrats on the acceptances!!!!!! Good luck with your decision!!!!
 
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Was your interview rough because you didn't feel like you belonged there? Were you experiencing imposter syndrome? This can be very common.

As for your credits being transferred, be very clear about the # of credits that will transfer or get you closer to graduation. I thought that with APA accredited programs, there is a limit to the number of classes that can be transferred to replace required classes. Meaning, a school may take 50 credits as a transfer, but that does not mean you only have to take 30-50 more to fulfill the doctoral program requirements.

I don't agree that a Ph.D. is only for those interested in academia. Many in my program are not, but the culture in our area is that Ph.D. provides more rigorous training, and therefore, more prepared applicants for internship and job market. Whether this is true or not is not the question, but it is absolutely the general thought in my region of the country.

As for the 4 vs. 5 year program, does that include internship year? I know of a university-based Psy.D. program that pushes the students' ability to complete in 4 years including internship, but very few students are able to complete the requirements in that time, and the few that do work themselves to the bone.
 
I should note, one of the reasons for the Psy.D. vs. Ph.D. attitude in my area is because there are no funded Pys.D. programs in the area. And I can see how my comment comes off as being anti-Psy.D., but that is not the case. There are wonderful and proficient Psy.D.s in the area. However, I think those folks feel the need to prove themselves a bit more.
 
Depends on your goals. No one will be surprised, but I would never go the PsyD route, mostly because I fundamentally disagree with the training model itself. I value research, still conduct and publish on it, and my PhD training was crucial for this. But, in the end, you have to look at your career goals. If it's fully funded, and has good stats, sure. I'd just be a slight bit concerned if that 100% match rate was because it was a captive internship though.
 
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All things being equal, I would always give the edge to a PhD program. It sounds like you have a couple of negatives that go against it being equal so it is hard to weigh if that is enough. Another thing to consider is national name recognition of the university outside of the field of psychology. Many times the hiring and salary decisions are made by non-psychologists and having a solid name helps in that process. It also helps with clients. The other thing to look at is what your general career goal is at this point and which one gives you the edge there because of practicum opportunities or faculty with solid experience in similar field. Forensic, psychotherapy, neuro, health, kids or adolescents, trauma, etc.
 
You can do virtually anything with a Psy.D. as you can do with a Ph.D. Research? Of course you can. If MDs -- you have far less research experience than Psy.D.'s do -- can do research (and they do, all the time), then yes, a practice-focused degree doesn't stop you from having the knowledge and skillset to do this. There is virtually no differentiation among educated professionals between the two degrees any longer.

I would always give the edge to what your gut feeling is -- not what other people's opinions are. There's actually research that shows trusting in your gut instincts works for a reason. (http://www.livescience.com/3289-study-suggests-gut-instincts-work.html ).

Your gut instinct seemed to be telling you that you felt more comfortable in the Psy.D. program.

Good luck,
John
 
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Can you do research with a PsyD? Of course you can. Will you get the same depth and breadth of training in research? Most likely not. A lot will depend on some individual characteristics, but making sure you have plenty of available opportunities to get training in things you want to utilize in your career will go a long way. Still plenty of differentiating characteristics these days in all but the top PsyD programs these days, too.

But, I still agree with other things, look long and hard about your career goals and which program will give you those opportunities.
 
The only problems I ever had with a psyd were

1) some of the PhDs talked smack/thought less of me. Some slightly greater difficulty in post doc applications.

2) I was never going to become department chair. Offered a tenure track position with the carrot being a shot at dept chair. I laughed because I knew that would never happen partially because of #1.

Financially it has made zero difference. Respect has come after some accomplishments.
 
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Yup, and that's just plain discrimination and stigma. There's no real difference in what you learn based upon degree alone. The differences arise mostly out of different programs. A Ph.D. from one university is not really equivalent from another, yet people treat them exactly the same (as though all programs' foci were the same, faculty were all the same, etc.). I've met PhDs who were horrible clinicians and PsyDs who made better researchers. I just don't think that the degree matters that much in the real world (except the rarefied, artificial world of academia).

If you were focused on going into academia, then yes, PhD might still serve you better. For nearly everything else, it just doesn't matter.
 
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There's no real difference in what you learn based upon degree alone.

I have taught Psy.D students within a psyd program (university based) and this is just patently false. Not to mention incongruent with the training model of the Psy.D itself.

I am not as psyd friendly as some, nor am I as anti psy.d as many others, but this is not just not accurate information.
 
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I have taught Psy.D students within a psyd program (university based) and this is just patently false. Not to mention incongruent with the training model of the Psy.D itself.

I am not as psyd friendly as some, nor am I as anti psy.d as many others, but this is not just not accurate information.
I'm not sure teaching in one PsyD program qualifies one to say this is "patently false." I imagine it qualifies you to say that that PsyD program is different tha your PhD program. Training models are different, yes. But it's hard to say that PsyDs and PHDs absolutely learn different things in grad school. I haven't noticed what is necessarily different in my many years trying to figure this out.

OP-know that choosing a PsyD make make you more vulnerable to some assumptions that you are not as well trained as PhDs. These are sometimes valid but mostly not. So far I've done everything I hoped to do in grad school as an (almost) PsyD without tremendous barriers (research, internship) and have even been encouraged to try to do few things I ruled out previously (teach!). The biggest difference is usually the price, so if that's not an issue, go with your gut.
 
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I'm not sure teaching in one PsyD program qualifies one to say this is "patently false." I imagine it qualifies you to say that that PsyD program is different tha your PhD program. Training models are different, yes. But it's hard to say that PsyDs and PHDs absolutely learn different things in grad school. I haven't noticed what is necessarily different in my many years trying to figure this out.

OP-know that choosing a PsyD make make you more vulnerable to some assumptions that you are not as well trained as PhDs. These are sometimes valid but mostly not. So far I've done everything I hoped to do in grad school as an (almost) PsyD without tremendous barriers (research, internship) and have even been encouraged to try to do few things I ruled out previously (teach!). The biggest difference is usually the price, so if that's not an issue, go with your gut.

Well...different means NOT the same last time I checked.

"No real difference" would suggest he meant "the same." So, it sound like we both agree. Not sure there's a need for the semantic quibbling.
 
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This type of argument about whose training is better is like an enactment from the entire professions' subconscious.
 
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Well...different means NOT the same last time I checked.

"No real difference" would suggest he meant "the same." So, it sound like we both agree. Not sure there's a need for the semantic quibbling.
Oops sorry, I was being unclear. Training models are different on paper. I don't think there is a tremendous difference in what is learned between PhDs and PsyDs across the board. I'm in agreement with John that it is more program dependent than degree dependent.
 
Many of the internships I applied to (primarily academic medical centers) do not consider PsyDs. While many students who do AMC internships are pursuing careers in academic research, this is not always the case. I know a lot of clinically-focused people who have gone the AMC route. For me, AMCs were the only sites that offered training opportunities with the population I'm interested in.
 
Thank you everyone for the great perspectives. I already felt good about getting two offers, and now I have the best commenters on SDN to helping me on the weekend. I am very interested in teaching as an option, maybe not TT, but teaching in some capacity. How big of a difference would you all say a PhD versus a PsyD makes in that case?
 
Was your interview rough because you didn't feel like you belonged there? Were you experiencing imposter syndrome? This can be very common.
As for the 4 vs. 5 year program, does that include internship year? I know of a university-based Psy.D. program that pushes the students' ability to complete in 4 years including internship, but very few students are able to complete the requirements in that time, and the few that do work themselves to the bone.

.

I didn't feel like I was at the same level as the current students. They all have R1 backgrounds and I don't, so I felt like I had zero chance and then I got accepted. It may be impostor syndrome, but I worry about goodness of fit. My undergrad was at a school so small the psych dept didn't even have its own building, we shared with education. My MA is at a tiny school too and I feel like a fish out of water at the PhD program.

The 4v5 year program does include internship year, but I could take 5 at the PsyD no problem, it would depend on how my dissertation went.
 
Thank you everyone for the great perspectives. I already felt good about getting two offers, and now I have the best commenters on SDN to helping me on the weekend. I am very interested in teaching as an option, maybe not TT, but teaching in some capacity. How big of a difference would you all say a PhD versus a PsyD makes in that case?

Depends, which will give you solid opportunities to actually teach classes during grad school?
 
Thank you everyone for the great perspectives. I already felt good about getting two offers, and now I have the best commenters on SDN to helping me on the weekend. I am very interested in teaching as an option, maybe not TT, but teaching in some capacity. How big of a difference would you all say a PhD versus a PsyD makes in that case?

Adjuncts are a dime a dozen, if that's what your asking. I've never really understood that. It a terrible financial investment/trade off.
 
Depends, which will give you solid opportunities to actually teach classes during grad school?
The PhD will allow me to teach UG classes, the PsyD only allows students to teach UG labs.
I had think I would enjoy teaching, but I don't want to throw myself down a TT path without knowing if I even like teaching. I had lots of adjunct professors who would teach one class they loved for fun and then have a full time clinical job and I'm guessing I could do that with either degree. It wouldn't be for the money that's for sure.
 
Getting teaching experience was big for me, I got a ton of experience in varied subjects within psychology (intro, personality, stats, research methods). Helped a lot with public speaking and coherently articulating ideas to a more lay audience. Valuable experience, in my opinion, even if you aren't going a pure academic/teaching route.
 
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It's been said that when you give advice, you are mirroring your own experience. For me, that is exactly what I am doing. I was in your shoes 4 years ago. Taking the fully funded Ph.D. seemed like such an obvious choice, but for some reason it was not so obvious to me. Then my undergrad advisor had me talk to a Psy.D. friend about my decision, and unequivocally she told me to go for the Ph.D. I realized I was letting my own imposter syndrome affect my logic. I felt like the Psy.D. was the safe choice.

Four years and a few grey hairs later, I am so thankful I didn't let me fears get in the way of what has been a significant growth and learning experience, and I am now set up to start a career with no barriers.

Again, not saying that a Psy.D. is wrought with barriers, but a Ph.D. eliminates this from even being a question.

If the Ph.D. is from a reputable program, they know what you have and something about that is what they want for their program. They are experienced in this recruitment process, and you have clearly demonstrated that you are a good fit and capable, even if this is not fully clear to you right now.
 
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Hi Grenth!

Congratulations on being accepted to both programs!

This is already a great achievement!

The following is based on my experience so far:

There's still a lot of stigma in regards to Psy. D. programs, regardless of their strengths or weaknesses.

I've seen for example some Psy. D.'s doing good research throughout their careers and still get passed upon in academia (and some clinical jobs) by Ph.D. fellows.

I've seen some Psy. D. programs that foster a great amount of research.

I've also seen some Ph. D. programs that are more clinical and less research based.

Likewise, there are some programs that do greatly in balancing both.

I personally chose a Psy. D. program with a huge concentration on clinical practice since I felt it was a better fit for my personal goals as a psychologist.

I can honestly tell you that this is not what society has in high regards.

Most of popular culture still don't even know what a Psy. D. is.

I hear some people say it's not a real doctorate.

In professional terms I can honestly say that clinical work seems way less regarded than academia, research, publications and participation in conferences.

Frankly, professors from my program seemed uninterested in our program and would actually get more interested in mentoring research and doctoral projects of Ph.D. candidates (school had both programs) who were more skilled in research methods.

I still get constantly get teased by Ph. D. fellows who mock my degree by even calling it a "pseudo-doctorate".

I remember I had a supervisor once who the person from HR put Psy. D. instead of Ph. D. next to his name in some paper and he smiled and bluntly said "oh, what an insult!" regardless of me being in the room. Then he approached me and other interns another day and stated not believing one degree was better than the other.

I feel that for some reason some people assume they're better because they got a degree or training over another one.

You get a sense of this on this forums, and you'll experience the same in conferences and perhaps some job opportunities.

I believe that only one Psy. D. has been given the opportunity so far (i.e. voted) to be APA president.

All of these doesn't mean that this can change some yrs along the way, however I see a lot of resistance.

Regardless of all of this, I can honestly say that I value what I do which is to work with undeserved people in at risk communities.

This may not win me prizes or glamorous promotions, but it's the actual reason why I wanted to become a psychologist.

Reality is that you got two great opportunities to study through funding so that's something you will be grateful for once you're finished.

I hope I did not offend someone by my comments.

Best luck in your decision!
 
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Hi Grenth!

Congratulations on being accepted to both programs!

This is already a great achievement!

The following is based on my experience so far:

There's still a lot of stigma in regards to Psy. D. programs, regardless of their strengths or weaknesses.

I've seen for example some Psy. D.'s doing good research throughout their careers and still get passed upon in academia (and some clinical jobs) by Ph.D. fellows.

I've seen some Psy. D. programs that foster a great amount of research.

I've also seen some Ph. D. programs that are more clinical and less research based.

Likewise, there are some programs that do greatly in balancing both.

I personally chose a Psy. D. program with a huge concentration on clinical practice since I felt it was a better fit for my personal goals as a psychologist.

I can honestly tell you that this is not what society has in high regards.

Most of popular culture still don't even know what a Psy. D. is.

I hear some people say it's not a real doctorate.

In professional terms I can honestly say that clinical work seems way less regarded than academia, research, publications and participation in conferences.

Frankly, professors from my program seemed uninterested in our program and would actually get more interested in mentoring research and doctoral projects of Ph.D. candidates (school had both programs) who were more skilled in research methods.

I still get constantly get teased by Ph. D. fellows who mock my degree by even calling it a "pseudo-doctorate".

I remember I had a supervisor once who the person from HR put Psy. D. instead of Ph. D. next to his name in some paper and he smiled and bluntly said "oh, what an insult!" regardless of me being in the room. Then he approached me and other interns another day and stated not believing one degree was better than the other.

I feel that for some reason some people assume they're better because they got a degree or training over another one.

You get a sense of this on this forums, and you'll experience the same in conferences and perhaps some job opportunities.

I believe that only one Psy. D. has been given the opportunity so far (i.e. voted) to be APA president.

All of these doesn't mean that this can change some yrs along the way, however I see a lot of resistance.

Regardless of all of this, I can honestly say that I value what I do which is to work with undeserved people in at risk communities.

This may not win me prizes or glamorous promotions, but it's the actual reason why I wanted to become a psychologist.

Reality is that you got two great opportunities to study through funding so that's something you will be grateful for once you're finished.

I hope I did not offend someone by my comments.

Best luck in your decision!
As someone with a PsyD degree myself, I would say that a lot of what you are saying jibes with my own experiences. I will say that I have not experienced such overt discrimination, but that could be a matter of where I have worked which has been clinical and rural settings.
 
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I think that the limitations others have mentioned should be strongly considered. I do believe bias still exists within out field, to some extent, when comparing and contrasting PhD and PsyD programs. Along these lines, I think that the reputation of the program is extremely important. I would also want to compare the programs on as many levels as possible. So, here is what I would try to think about when comparing them:

Which school has the POI you are most interested in working with? (i.e., is this person recruiting you?)
Cohort sizes and statistics on incoming classes (i.e., last five years).
Opportunities to receive training in Evidence Based Treatments
Variety of available practicum experiences
Interest in staying in Geographical Region for career.
Objective outcome data (i.e., avg time to completion, match rate, EPPP test scores, % grads licensed)
Information from current students and graduates
Level of funding and cost of living where school is located
Estimated debt upon completion
 
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Which school has the POI you are most interested in working with? (i.e., is this person recruiting you?)
futurepsydoc has some good questions, but I'd add to this one: where is your POI in their career, and how might that effect you?. I have a love/hate relationship with my grad school advisor, and a large part of that is that his tenure review and my dissertation were co-occurring. If I could avoid that, I would have done so at all costs. But that's only my situation.
 
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futurepsydoc has some good questions, but I'd add to this one: where is your POI in their career, and how might that effect you?. I have a love/hate relationship with my grad school advisor, and a large part of that is that his tenure review and my dissertation were co-occurring. If I could avoid that, I would have done so at all costs. But that's only my situation.

I think that will be very individual specific. I was also in the situation of my POI ( and co-POI) going through their tenure process at that time. They were still great and responsive. Definitely going to ratchet up the stress level, no question. But, I imagine it's highly dependent on that particular POI.
 
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I think that will be very individual specific. I was also in the situation of my POI ( and co-POI) going through their tenure process at that time. They were still great and responsive. Definitely going to ratchet up the stress level, no question. But, I imagine it's highly dependent on that particular POI.
I suppose you're completely right- just my one experience that I would totally have avoided could I have.
 
I suppose you're completely right- just my one experience that I would totally have avoided could I have.

I do think the stability of the mentor is important. If possible, my suggestion would be to ask current lab members what it is like in the lab withe POI. Are they hands on, hands off. Expectations. Size of lab. Culture of the lab. Etc. This might go a long way to address what Bmedclinic's is pointing out. Besides, these types of questions are reasonable for a prospective student to ask. Do others agree?
 
I do think the stability of the mentor is important. If possible, my suggestion would be to ask current lab members what it is like in the lab withe POI. Are they hands on, hands off. Expectations. Size of lab. Culture of the lab. Etc. This might go a long way to address what Bmedclinic's is pointing out. Besides, these types of questions are reasonable for a prospective student to ask. Do others agree?

Definitely questions one should ask during interviews. Although, that may be a bit late for the OP in this circumstance.
 
Is either program in the place you want to settle down? If the PsyD program you're talking about is Rutgers (for example...) and you want to stay in the Northeast, it's unlikely that any of the typical barriers of perception associated with a PsyD will stick to you. It's a great program, and if that isn't known everywhere in the country, it is certainly known in the Northeast. If you're comparing two funded programs with equivalent stats AND you love the PsyD program, the only thing that should give an edge to the PhD is if it's the winner location-wise. (Caveat, agreeing with someone above, if the internship match rate of the PsyD program is high bc of a captive internship, be cautious.)
 
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Thank you everyone for the great perspectives. I already felt good about getting two offers, and now I have the best commenters on SDN to helping me on the weekend. I am very interested in teaching as an option, maybe not TT, but teaching in some capacity. How big of a difference would you all say a PhD versus a PsyD makes in that case?

I only know from my own experience as a master's student right now, but many of my instructors for my clinical training classes (diagnosis, addictions counseling, ethics) are taught by PsyD's. My more theoretical courses such as human development, research methods, and statistics, have been taught by PhD's. Some of the PsyD's were adjunct and others were lecturers. None are tenured. So as someone said below, if you just want to teach a few classes once in a while I don't know that it'd be too difficult so long as you have the experience and expertise to actually teach something. However, if you want a tenured position it relies on publications, research experience, AND teach ability. But it sounds like you're not necessarily interested in a Tenure Track position and would be happy as a lecturer.
 
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Thanks again everyone. I made a pro con list and looked at some of the very helpful questions posted here and the PhD program started to edge the PsyD out a little. The final push was my PhD PoI sent me a very thoughtful email and it cemented that he wants me to work with him and I'm excited about that opportunity, even if I feel under-qualified he can see my potential.
Additionally, the location of the PhD program is closer to family and in the state in which I will likely settle. I was getting excited about getting to experience a new part of country, but there's always internship .
 
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aint that the truth. For your sake, in 5 years, I hope our field has done something substantial about that mess.

Until they do something about the front end, the mess is here to stay. Only working on the back end will make things doubly worse. Diluting the field and increasing the incentive for diploma mills.
 
Until they do something about the front end, the mess is here to stay. Only working on the back end will make things doubly worse. Diluting the field and increasing the incentive for diploma mills.
we dont need to derail this thread, but I'm all for a front end fix. But that requires a backbone, and you know the rest. Something about integrity, standards, etc, and not sponsoring the APA convention.
 
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