Would you support requiring a minimum age of 22 or at least one gap year before applying?

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I may be wrong, but I think @Matthew9Thirtyfive is advocating for mandatory public service for everyone at 18, not just pre-meds. Many countries require citizens to complete public service (usually military service) at 18

Correctamundo.

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[Sardinia]

Absolutely terrible idea. S. Korea requires 2 years of compulsory civil service because they have a nuclear threat across the DMZ border. Don't get me into how much of a hang-up this is for students trying to decide whether to complete service before college or afterwards. Someone I know just who finished Harvard Law had delayed their military service and is starting the first of their two years in Korean military service. When we get to the point where the job market is so bad that students will be embracing military service with open arms then I'm all for it. But until then, students need to self-invest in the area of their choice and start acquiring human capital. I only see military service to be a huge opportunity cost.

 

[mhagerman]

I wouldn't support a minimum age or a gap year requirement, for reasons mentioned before mine. The value added of an extra year could vary widely between individuals and wouldn't, in my opinion, address the intent behind this requirement.

I do however 100% think that prospective medical students should seek full-time employment prior to applying. If I were a residency director, or even an adcom for medical school admissions, I would seek out individuals that have had stable employment (I'm biased, of course). This is meaningful employment in some field that requires you to get up, go to work, take instruction and criticism from people who may or may not be more qualified than you, get along with coworkers who you may disagree with, and so on. College does not provide this experience.

Having a previous career is what launched me into medicine. I was able to decide what I wanted, as well as what I didn't want, in the work that I did. It could also save many students who end up pursuing medicine for the wrong reasons.

 

[ChrisMack390]

It is on the medical school to assess whether an applicant is mature enough or not. Some people are probably mature enough when they are 18. Some people probably never are.

 

[Goro]

Agree 100% with my young colleague. I have a few interview questions that I specifically use for the youngest applicants to assess their maturity levels. No, I'm not sharing.

It is on the medical school to assess whether an applicant is mature enough or not. Some people are probably mature enough when they are 18. Some people probably never are.

 

[hungrybox]

I mean, have you ever started a job then asked off a week later? Let alone probably one of the busiest jobs ever? It's kind of common sense inappropriate and you usually learn that from work experience lol.

I'm not saying it's not common sense, but if someone is genuinely not aware of workplace norms, can you really fault them for that when you're unwilling to explain them?

Personally, I think that open and honest communications are always best. Nobody that I know is a mind reader. The only way to get on the same page is through open communication.

 

[kb1900]

Yep. Saying that someone better not have the audacity to demand you do a year of public service is entitled. If that offends you, maybe you should explore why.

(you got offended by what that poster said, and you responded by being condescending to him. maybe you should explore why it offended you so much? do you see how this isnt a real argument or way to discuss anything.) i even posted above suggesting medical service in rural areas requirement prior to residency

but yeah it didn't offend me . and if that + your personal experience is the sum of your argument, that's pretty sad. "i had a lot of success doing X and that was because of Y. So lets make everyone does X!" Where is your evidence or actual argument for the utility gained by this kind of requirement?

frankly our difference in viewpoints stretches far beyond the context of this thread.

its 10x more about imposing ineffective regulations to achieve something completely intangible (akin to professors imposing mandatory lectures) while also impinging on individual will to do as they please and take responsibility for their OWN actions/consequences/resume for medical school/whatever.

Like someone said above, its the medical school's/employer/whoever's job to evaluate if a person brings "clutch leadership skills" or whatever to the table from their experience. And thats why public service jobs are looked on so highly. But mandating them is stupid because now the originally genuine motivation behind pursuing them is lost and replaced by a "requirement".

 

[Sardinia]

I'm not saying it's not common sense, but if someone is genuinely not aware of workplace norms, can you really fault them for that when you're unwilling to explain them? Personally, I think that open and honest communications are always best. Nobody that I know is a mind reader. The only way to get on the same page is through open communication.

Are you genuinely aware of workplace norms? Do you understand why I am asking this question?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

(you got offended by what that poster said, and you responded by being condescending to him. maybe you should explore why it offended you so much? do you see how this isnt a real argument or way to discuss anything.) i even posted above suggesting medical service in rural areas requirement prior to residency

but yeah it didn't offend me . and if that + your personal experience is the sum of your argument, that's pretty sad. "i had a lot of success doing X and that was because of Y. So lets make everyone does X!" Where is your evidence or actual argument for the utility gained by this kind of requirement?

frankly our difference in viewpoints stretches far beyond the context of this thread.

its 10x more about imposing ineffective regulations to achieve something completely intangible (akin to professors imposing mandatory lectures) while also impinging on individual will to do as they please and take responsibility for their OWN actions/consequences/resume for medical school/whatever.

Like someone said above, its the medical school's/employer/whoever's job to evaluate if a person brings "clutch leadership skills" or whatever to the table from their experience. And thats why public service jobs are looked on so highly. But mandating them is stupid because now the originally genuine motivation behind pursuing them is lost and replaced by a "requirement".

My argument isn't "it worked for me so let's make it mandatory for everyone." My argument is that I have seen the military and public service in general do a LOT for people. Many people start when they are immature and entitled, and some experience with the realities of how the rest of the world lives and dealing with serious and often life and death situations has a way of maturing you.

It forces you to take leadership positions where you are literally responsible for other people's lives. You get to push yourself to do things you maybe didn't think you could because you have to. You are forced to figure out how you learn best and how to figure out how other people learn because you're forced to teach people things that might affect if they live or die (and stuff that isn't so serious too).

As I said, this isn't something I support just for premed students. I believe everyone should do some sort of service. I don't think it should be that offensive to be required to serve the community and country you get so many freedoms from. And you live in one of the freest countries in the world where even our homeless have it better than most of the rest of the world. Being required to give back to that for a year or two in exchange for some educational and financial benefits is not some horrible thing.

The arguments against it have basically been variations of "I don't wanna!" A year or two of opportunity cost is a bull**** argument, particularly when the service yields educational and financial benefits. Oh, you have to jump through another hoop? No, you don't since everyone will do be doing it and starting at the same point.

And by the way, I'm not offended by anything on here. You can say whatever you want. When I pose an idea though, and your response is emotional and over the top ("the audacity of someone suggesting that!" and other great quotes here), then you are responding in an immature and entitled way. Just telling you what I'm observing (and no, I don't necessarily mean you specifically--the few posters who responded angrily and over the top).

 

[hungrybox]

Are you genuinely aware of workplace norms? Do you understand why I am asking this question?

Not always, which is why I always appreciate people who are willing to patiently answer questions. And no I don't understand why you're asking that question, but I do understand that you don't seem very happy about my post.

If some members on this board had their druthers I bet they would want it so that students asked questions ever. Guess that explains why so many med students complain about their lecturers.

 

[Sardinia]

Not always, which is why I always appreciate people who are willing to patiently answer questions. And no I don't understand why you're asking that question, but I do understand that you don't seem very happy about my post.

I'm happy. It's hard to write a response without knowing where to start. In this case, it would be what type of workplace experience you've had. The reason why it's important to tailor a response according to your circumstances is because making generalizations about any and all workplaces is either misleading or completely incorrect. The workplace environment can vary greatly depending on which hospital you work at, who is on your team, who is your team leader, and how you are employed (contract v. in-house CIMS/ER scribes).

Regardless of all these factors, the highest degree of variability is going to be you whether it's me, you, or a third party reading this post. When you enter a workplace pool, you will have expectations and competencies you need to fulfill. Some of these are going to be second nature, the other ones not so much. If you're inept then you need to get better. However, this doesn't mean that other people in the workforce will be open and honest about you during training. Some people are very generous and are open about what you need to improve without judging you. However, the people who dislike the fact that they have to train someone who just doesn't get it as fast as Person A or Person B may be tense or give off body language that they are exasperated when talking to you. They are not going to openly ask you why you don't get it. The worst is going to be the people who are completely apathetic towards you and your training. If you make a mistake, they will let it slip because you currently aren't someone that can help them. They have no interest in your future because they realize that by the time you complete your training they won't be able to personally benefit off you.

Aside from this, your coworkers are going to have their own bouts and problems. Some people may be going through a rough patch, working two jobs, having to take care of kids, or are pulling a 16 hour shift with less than 4 hours of sleep the prior night. They aren't going to tell you they are feeling miserable. If you burden these people specifically with duties or tasks without being conscientious of their body language, their habits, or the deviations in their behavior then you are going to receive some of it back either through passive aggressive behavior or in back-talk that you are just oblivious. Being in a work environment requires you to be conscience of your own coworkers. Some jobs just boil down to how well you can make your own coworkers happy while doing your own job.

Open and honest communication in the work environment is a farce. Any job has a compliance line set up in order to call about problems to HR anonymously because companies are worried that their work force may be incompetent/fraudulent and are only being upheld by a Blue Code of Silence. Work for me has always boiled down to becoming competent at the duties given to me and then taking on extra duties or providing my coworkers with options if they haven't been able to successfully complete theirs. When I used to work as a PCA, I spent $5 to buy bagels and cream cheese/toppings in case the nurses didn't have time to eat breakfast. Have you ever worked without breakfast? It's miserable. If you have kids and other responsibilities, then it becomes difficult to look after yourself and cover your own bases. Thinking outside the box about issues outside the work place is also important towards your place in the workplace. If I scratch your back, then you can scratch mine by answering questions about thoracentesis or ptx. It's not relevant to my job, but I brought bagels!

There is no doubt that if you've worked your fair share of jobs that you've met someone lazy and incompetent. They are incompetent because they are too lazy to make sure they became competent. They are also incompetent because they are too lazy to perform their tasks competently. It is impossible to have open and honest communication with these people because what little they do makes a barely manageable job, barely manageable. Without them your tasks become impossible to complete. Even if you pulled them over and criticized them, they always have an excuse. And you don't want to call the Compliance Line because you know they will probably get canned and they are a single parent of 2.

Working in a work place is much more of a maze than just open communication and honesty. Those tools are useful when you bring them out at the right time, however when you are unaware and being educated the best thing you could do is to take all criticism openly and figure out how to read in between the lines.

 

[Visible Ghost]

Yes, it's odd to advocate for mandatory public service for 18 year olds (again, not necessarily military). God forbid our young adults have to actually serve the country or neighborhoods they live in and maybe appreciate their lot in life a little.

I meant that in a general sense. was not directing it at you. I agree that community service/public service/any type of volunteering is necessary to build integrity in future health professionals. i think not having it is a major gap

 

[Visible Ghost]

My point isn't that you're just now making the argument, my point is that it seems like 1) a completely arbitrary time to enforce mandatory public service and 2) a ridiculously absurd idea. Not a strawman.


You assume a lot. You do not know me or what I have done during my time here on this earth. And no, I don't deserve to have public service forced upon me before applying, BECAUSE I've proven my commitment to serving my community. You want to call me entitled for busting my ass off for the past 4+ years, and then getting offended if some random administrator tells me "nope, not good enough?" Go ahead, bud. Your superiority complex is clearly showing, but then again I've come to expect nothing less from people like you.


I agree. No one is contesting that. My point was that you can gain the same perspective/insight/experiences from working a regular job AND volunteering in your community. Also, who said "a regular job" can't involve public service? You say "not necessarily military" but it's obvious that's the only job you consider worth anything.


Again, I didn't say that. I said if someone looked at my application now, and then told me I needed 1-2 years of "public service" to even APPLY to med school, I would laugh in their face. And once again, you assume things about me when you don't know me or my resumé.

Looking back over your posts and now what I've written, it's clear I'm not going to change your mind. I wish you the best and hope you realize that there are other ways beyond your own personal experiences to mature and grow as a person that will prepare one for medical school. Considering the fact that I've already been admitted, you can stop wasting your time trying to explain to me what I do and don't need for medical school. Either you possess more insight than several adcoms or, and I know this sounds crazy to you, you might be a little off-base.

Have you done any sort of medical volunteering?

 

[Visible Ghost]

My argument isn't "it worked for me so let's make it mandatory for everyone." My argument is that I have seen the military and public service in general do a LOT for people. Many people start when they are immature and entitled, and some experience with the realities of how the rest of the world lives and dealing with serious and often life and death situations has a way of maturing you.

It forces you to take leadership positions where you are literally responsible for other people's lives. You get to push yourself to do things you maybe didn't think you could because you have to. You are forced to figure out how you learn best and how to figure out how other people learn because you're forced to teach people things that might affect if they live or die (and stuff that isn't so serious too).

As I said, this isn't something I support just for premed students. I believe everyone should do some sort of service. I don't think it should be that offensive to be required to serve the community and country you get so many freedoms from. And you live in one of the freest countries in the world where even our homeless have it better than most of the rest of the world. Being required to give back to that for a year or two in exchange for some educational and financial benefits is not some horrible thing.

The arguments against it have basically been variations of "I don't wanna!" A year or two of opportunity cost is a bull**** argument, particularly when the service yields educational and financial benefits. Oh, you have to jump through another hoop? No, you don't since everyone will do be doing it and starting at the same point.

And by the way, I'm not offended by anything on here. You can say whatever you want. When I pose an idea though, and your response is emotional and over the top ("the audacity of someone suggesting that!" and other great quotes here), then you are responding in an immature and entitled way. Just telling you what I'm observing (and no, I don't necessarily mean you specifically--the few posters who responded angrily and over the top).

I do feel that heaps of praise are given to military personel without 1) questioning the roles the military has been playing for the last few decades 2) recognize the fact the military is responsible for civilian casualties in wars. Hence, I find it hard to reconcile a passion for medicine with a passion for a profession that involves killing others (drone warfare esp).

I also understand that one reason medical professionals and Adcoms don't question this is due to beint seen as unpatriotic

Just my 2 cents

 

[appalachian_man]

Have you done any sort of medical volunteering?

Yes, but just cookie cutter premed stuff. My meaningful volunteering is not medically related. Why do you ask?

 

[kb1900]

I do feel that heaps of praise are given to military personel without 1) questioning the roles the military has been playing for the last few decades 2) recognize the fact the military is responsible for civilian casualties in wars. Hence, I find it hard to reconcile a passion for medicine with a passion for a profession that involves killing others (drone warfare esp).

I also understand that one reason medical professionals and Adcoms don't question this is due to beint seen as unpatriotic

Just my 2 cents

Can of worms: opened