Yet another new school. In California. Imagine that.

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confettiflyer said:
I'm going to argue against you here, I think you're overvaluing pharmacy experience gained before admittance to a pharmacy school (ie tech work, etc...). In general, I think pharmacy experience without concurrent education only takes you so far, and that a competent student who gains his/her first pharmacy job (retail, hospital, etc...) after P1 will quickly catch up.

What a mandatory "pharmacy experience" requirement will do will cause potential students to shift away from other academically worthy activities like independent research or other social activities that, I feel, have a higher value than spending a year or two in a retail pharmacy.

I felt like those with pharm experience before school were ahead of the curve at the *start* of school, but the gap quickly closed as those with other experiences (other employment, greek involvement as an undergrad, research, etc...) started getting similar experiences.

Of course the easy solution would be to have a candidate who had ALL of the above experiences, but some students don't have the luxury.
Click to expand...

The point that was being raised was that many pharmacy students don't have adequate first hand experience even by the time they start rotations, so I'm guessing these students aren't working at all through pharmacy school. I'm taking the word of other students here who have seen these people first hand, but maybe it's not as big of an issue as they say. I honestly don't know. You could be right that the gap actually closes quickly once pharmacy school starts. Even if that's the case though, these students risk being a year or two into pharmacy school before they realize it was the wrong career choice for them.

confettiflyer said:
Some of the best pharmacy students/pharmacists I know had ZERO in-house experience going into school, but were outstanding academics and leaders in undergrad-only opportunities (aforementioned independent research & greek, plus student government, health organizations, etc...)
Click to expand...

I have the same problem with making pharmacy experience mandatory, actually. There are probably lots of people who fit the profile you're talking about, who don't work, get into pharmacy school and love it. It's not completely fair to them, I don't deny it. But like Prazi mentioned, it's not unprecedented. Mostly though, I look at it from a point of view of restricting supply. Since you're our resident expert on the ACPE and the antitrust aspect of things, would this even be legal?
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R2pharmD2 said:
The point that was being raised was that many pharmacy students don't have adequate first hand experience even by the time they start rotations, so I'm guessing these students aren't working at all through pharmacy school... Even if that's the case though, these students risk being a year or two into pharmacy school before they realize it was the wrong career choice for them.
Click to expand...

IPPE's were designed to address the "not ready by APPE's/rotations" issue, but schools dumping it on students over a 2 week whirlwind session over the summer is useless.

This is the problem with ANY requirement for experience within (or before) pharmacy school. There's a divide between the intent & execution.

The idea that students will have a "crisis of career" halfway through school is not new, nor is it unique to pharmacy.

I have the same problem with making pharmacy experience mandatory, actually. There are probably lots of people who fit the profile you're talking about, who don't work, get into pharmacy school and love it. It's not completely fair to them, I don't deny it. But like Prazi mentioned, it's not unprecedented. Mostly though, I look at it from a point of view of restricting supply. Since you're our resident expert on the ACPE and the antitrust aspect of things, would this even be legal?
Click to expand...

I believe it's legal and within the scope of ACPE to require experience for admission, it would have to be sufficiently vague to encompass all of the different pharmacy experiences (would working as a project manager at Pfizer count?), but specific enough to address your underlying issue.

You're also subjecting a student's chances for admission to the local job market, which really sucks. That would penalize applicants applying in a down cycle in the economy.

Further, there's no precedence with the other health professions. MD/DO, DMD/DDS, etc... (to my knowledge) don't require applicant experience before
matriculating.

In short: an experience requirement won't do much to blunt the supply of pharmacists, increase their quality, or increase demand for pharmacy services. You'll end up dissuading a few people who didn't like what they saw and avoided applying, but you'll also end up adding hurdles to qualified students.
 
confettiflyer said:
IPPE's were designed to address the "not ready by APPE's/rotations" issue, but schools dumping it on students over a 2 week whirlwind session over the summer is useless.

This is the problem with ANY requirement for experience within (or before) pharmacy school. There's a divide between the intent & execution.

The idea that students will have a "crisis of career" halfway through school is not new, nor is it unique to pharmacy.



I believe it's legal and within the scope of ACPE to require experience for admission, it would have to be sufficiently vague to encompass all of the different pharmacy experiences (would working as a project manager at Pfizer count?), but specific enough to address your underlying issue.

You're also subjecting a student's chances for admission to the local job market, which really sucks. That would penalize applicants applying in a down cycle in the economy.

Further, there's no precedence with the other health professions. MD/DO, DMD/DDS, etc... (to my knowledge) don't require applicant experience before
matriculating.

In short: an experience requirement won't do much to blunt the supply of pharmacists, increase their quality, or increase demand for pharmacy services. You'll end up dissuading a few people who didn't like what they saw and avoided applying, but you'll also end up adding hurdles to qualified students.
Click to expand...

Some good points. There's definitely no de jure requirement for most other professional schools (although I think a majority of CRNA and PA schools require it), but it is de facto for most other professions. I guarantee that pre-meds and pre-dents wouldn't shadow to the extent they do if it wasn't necessary.

There is the distinct possibility that adding such a requirement now could do more harm than good, but I'm surprised that it isn't already there. Oh well.
 
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confettiflyer said:
IPPE's were designed to address the "not ready by APPE's/rotations" issue, but schools dumping it on students over a 2 week whirlwind session over the summer is useless.

This is the problem with ANY requirement for experience within (or before) pharmacy school. There's a divide between the intent & execution.

The idea that students will have a "crisis of career" halfway through school is not new, nor is it unique to pharmacy.
Click to expand...

I had something a bit more substantial in mind for a "pre-P1" IPPE, say an 8 week session maybe.

confettiflyer said:
I believe it's legal and within the scope of ACPE to require experience for admission, it would have to be sufficiently vague to encompass all of the different pharmacy experiences (would working as a project manager at Pfizer count?), but specific enough to address your underlying issue.

You're also subjecting a student's chances for admission to the local job market, which really sucks. That would penalize applicants applying in a down cycle in the economy.

Further, there's no precedence with the other health professions. MD/DO, DMD/DDS, etc... (to my knowledge) don't require applicant experience before
matriculating.

In short: an experience requirement won't do much to blunt the supply of pharmacists, increase their quality, or increase demand for pharmacy services. You'll end up dissuading a few people who didn't like what they saw and avoided applying, but you'll also end up adding hurdles to qualified students.
Click to expand...

CRNAs are required to have a year of acute care experience before they can apply to a program, for an example. I've heard that some PA schools have a "health care field" work hours requirement too, but I'm not sure about that. My school offers a PA program which doesn't have a hard requirement, but they give preference to applicants with 1-2 years of work experience before applying.

We are adding hurdles, yes, but is it too easy to get in now? How many other Doctorate level programs can a student get into after only 2 years of undergrad? It's a hurdle, but less of a hurdle than requiring a degree (IMO), for instance.

I do think we would have to know how extensive any experience requirement would be before we could determine whether it would impact the number of pharmacy school applicants in any substantial way.
 
confettiflyer said:
My math is correct, your math is not. 1 school = ~70 new graduates. increasing pharm demand by 1 per state = 50. My statement is correct when I say increasing by 1 almost alleviates one school's graduates for a year.

Reread the original post.
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Not only is ur math flawed but your logic is beyond flawed. It may alleviate 72% of one class of ONE new school per yr ( NOT AN ENTIRE CLASS), but who cares... When you have almost a dozen new schools opening every yr, adding 50 new jobs a yr solves nothing...
 
steveysmith54 said:
Not only is ur math flawed but your logic is beyond flawed. It may alleviate 72% of one class of ONE new school per yr ( NOT AN ENTIRE CLASS), but who cares... When you have almost a dozen new schools opening every yr, adding 50 new jobs a yr solves nothing...
Click to expand...

lol, you're still misreading my original post :laugh: you just clarified it with your post.

look up the dictionary definition of "rounding"
 
Also, the issue of lack of experience in any part of a student's education has been addressed repeatedly in the contemporary history of pharmacy education.

Many boards of pharmacy have required X # of hours of outside experiential education in the days before the PharmD became the 1st professional degree. Many still require it in addition to the 1440hrs from APPE.

Then there was the addition of the P4/APPE year which may or may not have had its roots in mandating additional hands on experience for students.

THEN you had the addition of the IPPE to address inexperience going into APPE's as well as the rule requiring experiential education comprise 1/3 of the curriculum (i think, someone double check me on that).

When it comes down to it, I think we're trying to address the following:

1) Maturity/Work Ethic
2) Understanding the profession
3) Academic ability

Is an accrediting body, promulgating pre-matriculation requirements, best suited to address these issues? I'm not so sure.
 
I am interested in this school, but not sure what the difference of getting a BS there or from a University like UCLA or USC. Would AUHS offer the same bachelors degree from other universities?
 
marmar17k said:
I am interested in this school, but not sure what the difference of getting a BS there or from a University like UCLA or USC. Would AUHS offer the same bachelors degree from other universities?
Click to expand...

lol, it would be a joke of a bachelor's compared to those institutions. you're better off going to a CSU if you can't get into a real university (ie UC, USC, Stanford, etc....)
 
not only are they making a mockery of PharmD degree but it looks like they want to make a mockery of a BS degree, as well.. 3 yr BS degree that also prepares u to work in the industry... All, I have to say is WOW!!!
 
I think our profession is at an interesting junction. There is automation, CPOE, more supply than demand of pharmacists, and reimburse cut. Get involved with your local organizations. This is where to you hear ideas and contribute to the profession.

The other problem is that a lots of pharmacists are not involved with organizations to further our profession. I have often heard that $400 membership due is too muchor too busy to attend once a month meeting. Just so ridiculous. If we don't voice our interests, someone will. If I remember correctly, pharmacy as a profession did not give much voice to the Medicare Part D hearing.

Getting back to the original topic of school openings. I am too very distheartened to hear about school openings left and right. I believe this will result in two kinds of pharmacists. There will be a group of pharmacists who are amazing great and good at what they do. At the other spectrum, there will be pharmacists who are just BAD. You can guess which ones come from which schools.

Anyone remembers what happened to a pharmacy school in Hawaii a few years back? I sat in one of the phone conversations where AHSU solicits the Pharmacy Director (400 bed+ Hospital) if he can take their students. The director denied the request as his institution is at full capacity with students from Western, Loma Linda, UOP etc.

I do believe that these new schools will have a hard time finding IPPE sites. I don't oppose the opening up of new schools if they are reputable and have a real interest of serving the community. Most of these new schools seem like diploma mills to me. I have received numerous letters from AHSU asking if I "have a son, daughter, niece... and if they are interest in pharmacy." And get this, as part of this referal, enrollees will get 10% off of tuition. How sad is that?
 
rocknhardplace said:
I think our profession is at an interesting junction. There is automation, CPOE, more supply than demand of pharmacists, and reimburse cut. Get involved with your local organizations. This is where to you hear ideas and contribute to the profession.

The other problem is that a lots of pharmacists are not involved with organizations to further our profession. I have often heard that $400 membership due is too muchor too busy to attend once a month meeting. Just so ridiculous. If we don't voice our interests, someone will. If I remember correctly, pharmacy as a profession did not give much voice to the Medicare Part D hearing.

Getting back to the original topic of school openings. I am too very distheartened to hear about school openings left and right. I believe this will result in two kinds of pharmacists. There will be a group of pharmacists who are amazing great and good at what they do. At the other spectrum, there will be pharmacists who are just BAD. You can guess which ones come from which schools.

Anyone remembers what happened to a pharmacy school in Hawaii a few years back? I sat in one of the phone conversations where AHSU solicits the Pharmacy Director (400 bed+ Hospital) if he can take their students. The director denied the request as his institution is at full capacity with students from Western, Loma Linda, UOP etc.

I do believe that these new schools will have a hard time finding IPPE sites. I don't oppose the opening up of new schools if they are reputable and have a real interest of serving the community. Most of these new schools seem like diploma mills to me. I have received numerous letters from AHSU asking if I "have a son, daughter, niece... and if they are interest in pharmacy." And get this, as part of this referal, enrollees will get 10% off of tuition. How sad is that?
Click to expand...

Is there a comprehensive list dividing the schools into those offering a respectable, professional education and those that are a diploma mill? If not, it would be interesting to see someone make such a list! :laugh:
 
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Baddabingo said:
Is there a comprehensive list dividing the schools into those offering a respectable, professional education and those that are a diploma mill? If not, it would be interesting to see someone make such a list! :laugh:
Click to expand...

Step 1: Did the pharmacy school open before or after the year 2000?
Step 2: Make list
Step 3: ??????
Step 4: Profit
 
awval999 said:
Step 1: Did the pharmacy school open before or after the year 2000?
Step 2: Make list
Step 3: ??????
Step 4: Profit
Click to expand...

Step 3: If it's not ranked at least number 50 it's a diploma mill for sure.

I say top 50 schools opened 100 years ago is okay. The rest that were open a few years ago that charge 45K a year tuition are all diploma mills.
 
SHC1984 said:
Step 3: If it's not ranked at least number 50 it's a diploma mill for sure.

I say top 50 schools opened 100 years ago is okay. The rest that were open a few years ago that charge 45K a year tuition are all diploma mills.
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Honestly all it takes is the Hospital Directors from every (or most) hospitals in the State of California to say-- no more, that they are full of students, that have other commitments with other universities.

If they won't give them IPPE or APPE spots its all over.

Or, current PHARMACISTS could just refuse to work there. They are literally working for the death of their own profession. But I realize when the choice is CVS or a fancy new university where you don't have to work hard, people may do it. But they need to realize they are tying the noose around their own necks.
 
awval999 said:
Honestly all it takes is the Hospital Directors from every (or most) hospitals in the State of California to say-- no more, that they are full of students, that have other commitments with other universities.

If they won't give them IPPE or APPE spots its all over.

Or, current PHARMACISTS could just refuse to work there. They are literally working for the death of their own profession. But I realize when the choice is CVS or a fancy new university where you don't have to work hard, people may do it. But they need to realize they are tying the noose around their own necks.
Click to expand...

That would be nice but these schools are paying hospitals to take their students.

It used to mean something to get accepted to a pharmacy school. Not anymore
 
BMBiology said:
That would be nice but these schools are paying hospitals to take their students.

It used to mean something to get accepted to a pharmacy school. Not anymore
Click to expand...

Hospital director can still say 'no'.

Potential faculty can still say 'no'.

All I'm saying is that it takes legally licensed PHARMACISTS to perpetuate this. If we all just said--full stop-- NO. We're not going to hire your students, we're not going to work in your building-- we're not going to educate them, it would be over tomorrow.

It's obviously not going to happen. But the profession will eventually turn on them. Look at LAW. Those big law firms just flat out-- full stop-- refuse to even interview you if you're not top 14 or whatever. It will be the same thing. We'll have pharmacy unicorn school and we'll have the CVS/WAG mills.
 
The thing is though...it's not like these new schools pop up in a vacuum. Usually 1 or 2 respected faculty members from established schools are enough to start building rotational programs around them.

Hell, that's how my school (new one from 2008) did it. We straight jacked a bunch of faculty and experential education staff from the established school and rotation sites were all like "oh hey it's the same person I've been working with."

We even paid less than the established school and got a ton of rotation sites. Talk about straight pimp status. :cool:
 
confettiflyer said:
The thing is though...it's not like these new schools pop up in a vacuum. Usually 1 or 2 respected faculty members from established schools are enough to start building rotational programs around them.

Hell, that's how my school (new one from 2008) did it. We straight jacked a bunch of faculty and experential education staff from the established school and rotation sites were all like "oh hey it's the same person I've been working with."

We even paid less than the established school and got a ton of rotation sites. Talk about straight pimp status. :cool:
Click to expand...
your school is different though, I don't think anyone would call them a diploma mill. They actually have a fantastic layout, and a unique angle and were a well established school with other health programs- which is why faculty may have wanted to help develop the pharmacy school. West Coast university? not so much.
 
Here ya go! The founding Dean is a professional of the Diploma Mill circuit. Looks like he is experienced at setting up diploma mills around the world!

Founding Dean

Dr. Naushad Khan Ghilzai has served as a Professor at LECOM School of Pharmacy where he taught and oversaw the School’s faculty development as Associate Dean of Faculty Affairs at both campuses (Erie, PA and Bradenton, FL). Dr Ghilzai earned his B.S. in Pharmacy and M.S. in Pharmacology from the University of Delhi, India.
Click to expand...
 
rxelle said:
your school is different though, i don't think anyone would call them a diploma mill. They actually have a fantastic layout, and a unique angle and were a well established school with other health programs- which is why faculty may have wanted to help develop the pharmacy school. West coast university? Not so much.
Click to expand...

+1
 
rxelle said:
your school is different though, I don't think anyone would call them a diploma mill. They actually have a fantastic layout, and a unique angle and were a well established school with other health programs- which is why faculty may have wanted to help develop the pharmacy school. West Coast university? not so much.
Click to expand...

True, every school is different...BUT, all it takes is one or two key players and you can start around that.

It's like ice-nine in the Kurt Vonnegut book.

But you're right I don't see much prominence in the West Coast University founding staff.
 
confettiflyer said:
True, every school is different...BUT, all it takes is one or two key players and you can start around that.

It's like ice-nine in the Kurt Vonnegut book.

But you're right I don't see much prominence in the West Coast University founding staff.
Click to expand...

Nice reference!

One of my favorite books of all time!
 
You can't boycott a school....store's techs are gonna go to them, theyre gonna return and intern for the store, willl get hired, someone's daughter will get in bc she had a low gpa but someone will help their friend's daughter out and give them a job...etc...etc...this is how connections are built and new schools eventually dig their roots in deep.
 
rxlea said:
Nice reference!

One of my favorite books of all time!
Click to expand...

confettiflyer said:
Haha, I was wondering who would comment on that reference. I thought it would be 297.
Click to expand...

I don't read much science fiction, or much fiction at all- the last fiction book I read was four years ago- Downtown Owl by Chuck Klosterman (and only because I'm a huge fan of Klosterman). I've never read any Vonnegut.

Too many good non-fiction books out there...
 
297point1 said:
I don't read much science fiction, or much fiction at all- the last fiction book I read was four years ago- Downtown Owl by Chuck Klosterman (and only because I'm a huge fan of Klosterman). I've never read any Vonnegut.

Too many good non-fiction books out there...
Click to expand...

I enjoy non fiction as well. I mostly read non-fiction.

I highly recommend some Vonnegut though.
 
rxlea said:
I enjoy non fiction as well. I mostly read non-fiction.

I highly recommend some Vonnegut though.
Click to expand...

Last book of Vonnegut that I read was "Slaughterhouse Five," and I did not like it. Made me hate people for a good few weeks :S Although that was kind of the point? I love Sci-Fi and reading, but I just haven't read a Vonnegut book since. My favorite authors are Margaret Atwood, Cormac McCarthy, and Faulkner 8D There are many others, but those are definitely my favorites.

And about the excess of pharmacy schools in California. . . *sigh* I should have gotten licensed in additional states -____- If it ever does come to the point that your degree matters I got mine from UCSF 8D It is what it is. Glad I graduated sooner rather than later. The future is looking grim :S It just started to get bad when I was in pharmacy school. Intern jobs were easy to get when I started in 2007, but by 2008/2009 they became very difficult to find.
 
chibipinkneko said:
Last book of Vonnegut that I read was "Slaughterhouse Five," and I did not like it. Made me hate people for a good few weeks :S Although that was kind of the point? I love Sci-Fi and reading, but I just haven't read a Vonnegut book since. My favorite authors are Margaret Atwood, Cormac McCarthy, and Faulkner 8D There are many others, but those are definitely my favorites.

And about the excess of pharmacy schools in California. . . *sigh* I should have gotten licensed in additional states -____- If it ever does come to the point that your degree matters I got mine from UCSF 8D It is what it is. Glad I graduated sooner rather than later. The future is looking grim :S It just started to get bad when I was in pharmacy school. Intern jobs were easy to get when I started in 2007, but by 2008/2009 they became very difficult to find.
Click to expand...

Try a book called Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card.

Vonnegut is supposed to incite a little discomfort. Try some of the other books. I recommend Cat's Cradle. Mother Night after that.
 
rxlea said:
Try a book called Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card.

Vonnegut is supposed to incite a little discomfort. Try some of the other books. I recommend Cat's Cradle. Mother Night after that.
Click to expand...

I loved Ender's Game! That was an awesome book. I should reread it though because it's been 15 years I think. I read Vonnegut about 13 years ago, so perhaps I've matured since then :p I was just reading it for fun, and it was not that fun. . . We had read one of his short stories in class, the one with the ballerina, and I loved it. But Slaughterhouse Five was not what I was expecting. Maybe I should try another book of his? Is there one you suggest? I was really into sci fi during my high school years. My favorites were Orwell and Bradbury.

Then again, I don't like all of Faulkner or Atwood. I attempted, The Sound and the Fury, years ago for fun, and again it was not that fun XD Later I learned that most people have to build up to it. It's written from multiple POVs and it flashes back and forth to present and past events without telling you. So confusing D: I love Faulkner and his abstract way of thinking, but I just can't get into that one :X And my least favorite book of Atwood's is her sci-fi fic, The Handmaid's Tale. I just didn't like it :S
 
Was looking for a job at Sutter Health and saw this posting...

SMU-1302753 SMU-Associate Dean Pharmacy - Academic Affairs
Description
The School of Pharmacy at Samuel Merritt University invites applications for leader¬ship positions in a newly developing Pharm D Program, which will admit its first class of students in the Fall of 2015. These positions provide a singular opportunity for creative leadership in the development of a new curriculum that will be student-centered, involve active learning strategies, and that is designed to meet contemporary and future needs for clinically competent pharmacists.
The University has an institution-wide commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion. We strive to build a welcoming and supportive campus environment, and acknowledge that diversity is an educational imperative to achieve excellence.
All candidates should possess the designated academic credentials; have academic and administrative experience in higher education, excellent interpersonal and group communication skills; and demonstrated evidence of or potential for aca¬demic leadership. Positions are full-time, 12-month appointments with some teaching responsibilities.

And West Coast U. first class is Fall 2013...
 
Hmmm. That's a total of 4 schools opening up in California...
 
God, glad I am moving out of the state. :smuggrin:
 
chibipinkneko said:
I loved Ender's Game! That was an awesome book. I should reread it though because it's been 15 years I think. I read Vonnegut about 13 years ago, so perhaps I've matured since then :p I was just reading it for fun, and it was not that fun. . . We had read one of his short stories in class, the one with the ballerina, and I loved it. But Slaughterhouse Five was not what I was expecting. Maybe I should try another book of his? Is there one you suggest? I was really into sci fi during my high school years. My favorites were Orwell and Bradbury.

Then again, I don't like all of Faulkner or Atwood. I attempted, The Sound and the Fury, years ago for fun, and again it was not that fun XD Later I learned that most people have to build up to it. It's written from multiple POVs and it flashes back and forth to present and past events without telling you. So confusing D: I love Faulkner and his abstract way of thinking, but I just can't get into that one :X And my least favorite book of Atwood's is her sci-fi fic, The Handmaid's Tale. I just didn't like it :S
Click to expand...

The Ender series is still unfinished, the fourth book ended in a cliffhanger. Meanwhile the parallel series , Ender's Shadow also ran for 4 books. The middle two books of Ender's Shadow were mediocre, but the end of the 4th book made it apparent why the Ender series has not been finished yet.
Orson Scott Card should have been tapped to finish the Dune series rather than Kevin Anderson and I don't buy that story that Brian Herbert found an outline for the series conclusion in his father's safety deposit box. What they wrote was not where Frank Herbert was taking the series. Yet it was ending. there were some cool parts such as Little Leto's choice, the fate of a megalomaniacal Paul ghola, and Mile's heroics, but too many deus ex machina.
 
JohnFe said:
Okay,

AUHS
SMU
West Coast U
Keck Institute

... whats the other one?
Click to expand...

I think Clairemont is opening its own (before they were joint with Keck, now separating) and POSSIBLY one in Fresno/Central Valley..?
 
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