Work Hard, Work Hard, No interest in playing.

[Kangal]

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[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Everyone seems to want the white picket fence, watch their son's soccer game, BBQ on Saturday kind of life. Am I odd for not caring about this?

No, it's pretty typical to not really care about things you neither have (a son) nor have any immediate use for (white picket fence).

Don't get me wrong, I want a wife, kids, maybe a decent house with a yard...but does the want for this come close to my want to be an academic surgeon -- absolutely not.

If you want a wife and kids, and plan to keep them around, your priorities will likely have to change at some point. I'm sure someone will chime in and blast this old fashioned viewpoint but in my experience with marriage/family and observing my friends' marriages, when the family is consistently under work/project/hobby on the priority list, major problems arise.

I try to balance my aspirations with my family's needs. It's a delicate balance but one that overall results in the maximum stability, happiness, and strength of relationship for all of us. Could I achieve more if I left my wife behind during my pursuits? Maybe, maybe not, there is something to be said for my own emotional and mental stability, which she contributes to in a massive way, in how far I could go. I really don't even care to find out, we're a team, now.

I am thankful for the people who have no real aspirations to have family or even social lives and who move society forward. More power to them.

 

[Kangal]

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[theseeker4]

I see what you are saying. Easier to say those things don't matter to me while I don't have them. Can't see myself even thinking about marriage until mid or post residency, and at that point I'll be locked into a research project and patients. Lost my last GF to studying. I'm thinking I'll be a crappy husband, a halfway decent father, good researcher, and kick-ass surgeon. But who knows...maybe I'll die alone with my tombstone standing 10 feet tall and all my publications beautifully carved in stone. I know it's possible to have both, the nsurg-sci I work with has both, just not sure at what point do you say "hey let me sacrifice my surgical dexterity and academic quality because I want to make my home life more cush". Maybe I'm just bitter.

What, exactly, are you bitter about? Sounds like you are pursuing what is most important to you right now, and from what you describe, things on that front are going well for you.....

 

[Mad Jack]

A marvelous grave with no one that cares to visit it...

Have you ever read Ozymandias?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

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good...for you?

 

[Kangal]

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[KinasePro]

I feel ya, OP. My work-to-play ratio is probably 80:20 or 85:15. It's kinda funny bc in my free time I actually like to work... come up w/ research projects, spend time in the OR, or read a textbook with a cup of coffee. I have hobbies and family too, but I do love getting **** done and building my CV.

I think on SDN there is a lot of melodrama regarding people who work very hard. People will say in this thread that your family will dislike or resent you, surgeons are miserable, you'll die with regrets, etc... Meanwhile, I know plenty of people who hustled very hard in their early career and tapered back around middle age-- still widely respected and often their children end up in medicine as well. As long as you're spouse is 100% sure what he/she is getting into, then I think the warnings you see on SDN are overplayed.

 

[Mad Jack]

I guess, the constant bombardment of skeptical remarks from my peers. "You can't do good bench research and a be good surgeon," "You can't do research and surgery and have a family". I know people who balance the research and the surgery beautifully, and people are assuming that my dream is to have this picture perfect family. I try to keep myself unaffected by others opinions, but sometimes it seeps in. I like doing what I am doing. I want to keep doing what I'm doing. Don't like when people think I'm crazy or socially off because I don't have the idealized American dream as my goal. And I guess thats why I feel a little bitter. If there was no one pointing fingers and calling me a loon, I would't feel like one at all lol. Also, SDN is my way to vent ideas that bother me without reaching out to my direct social circle. So thanks for the psychiatric help everyone.

Dude, you are a loon. The sooner you just learn to accept that you're different, the sooner you can move past giving a damn what everyone else thinks. My career goals are pretty nutty too, but in a totally different direction, so I get it. Just don't talk about your plans, do them, since they'll never understand until they see the results.

 

[Kangal]

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[dadaddadaBATMAN]

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good...for you?

I would argue that "good for him" is the opposite of what this is.

 

[Kangal]

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[KinasePro]

Dude, you are a loon. The sooner you just learn to accept that you're different, the sooner you can move past giving a damn what everyone else thinks. My career goals are pretty nutty too, but in a totally different direction, so I get it. Just don't talk about your plans, do them, since they'll never understand until they see the results.

Lol, this is true and prob applies to me as well.

But hey, haters gon' hate. I'll keep doing my thing and slow down when I'm damn ready to, but that's just my philosophy. I'm sure I'll slow down by my 40's.

Glad to know someones out there who feels the same way. That was my issue with my last GF. When she met me, school wasn't hot and heavy, and once it became hot and heavy she didn't like the time I was spending reading/ not listening to her. Next woman in the mix, I'll give her a disclaimer. Def want to be clear that I am not against the idea of family, and the whole SDN world makes me feel like I have to be. Damn. I can't imagine sleeping well at night if I wasn't pushing myself as hard as I can. And I plan on doing this. Forever. I won't burn out because this is what I LIKE doing. When I'm over the top busy I perform at my peak. Different strokes for different folks of course.

The way I see it, it's all about quality and not quantity. Some of the worst husbands/bfs are the ones that are always there. Just gotta make your time count, and try to excel in your personal life as well your professional. Try to find someone who does them both very well, and take pointers from them.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Glad to know someones out there who feels the same way. That was my issue with my last GF. When she met me, school wasn't hot and heavy, and once it became hot and heavy she didn't like the time I was spending reading/ not listening to her. Next woman in the mix, I'll give her a disclaimer. Def want to be clear that I am not against the idea of family, and the whole SDN world makes me feel like I have to be. Damn. I can't imagine sleeping well at night if I wasn't pushing myself as hard as I can. And I plan on doing this. Forever. I won't burn out because this is what I LIKE doing. When I'm over the top busy I perform at my peak. Different strokes for different folks of course.

I'm a bit of an ass, so expect value judgments as fact, and crappy (and sophomoric) philosophical statements.

My view on life is as a limited window in which we have to operate (pun intended in this case). If you feel that you would like to spend everything you will ever be in surgery, I guess I get it. Good for you ( 🤔 )!

In all seriousness, the world does need people like you, but I'm sure glad I'm not one of them.

Personally, I have this unrealistic perspective of future dada...batman as a monk-like guy who can't get upset by much, and does research when not hanging out with the family or working. Work will undoubtedly be important, but I hope it's not all I get to contribute. I hope the research and kids end up being greater contributions.

I think the goal of child rearing is to generate people who are greater than yourself (my goal anyway). This will be an incredibly time-consuming task, which a lot of people will agree with. Especially those with kids. I find it unrealistic that one could work 80 hrs a week and have "normal" children. Unless you're an incredibly rare person, and don't plan on sleeping much.

So my ratio will probably be something like work-50, play/research/learning-25, kids/family-25. The work will mostly be to shore up resources to protect/develop the kids, and the ratio will shift toward them over time.

 

[Flamen04]

I think you might have delusional disorder if you think you can hold up a healthy marriage with wife and kids by excessively putting work over your family life. There is a reason why a lot of "hard working" physicians are divorced. If they're not, the wife's a gold digger.

 

[Mad Jack]

I would argue that "good for him" is the opposite of what this is.

Good for him or not, it doesn't matter. Medicine used to select for his sort of personality because it is far more useful to have a surgeon that clocks 80-100 hours a week contentedly till the end of time than two surgeons that begrudgingly attempt to maintain a work-life balance while working 50 hours a week, since the former will cover more cases, require less training time/money, and be more proficient than the latter. Medicine has just changed and this guy still has the old school mentality. It will serve us well to have an academic like him someday.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

I know that you are right. I just get too enthused about what I'm doing, talk about my ambitions, and then get shut down. Silence and results work better than noise and no product. I guess I'll just try to accept that the majority of medical students don't feel the way I feel. But then....what do they want to talk about at lunch? The weather? lol



So what do you pose as satisfying, if you aren't pushing 100%, then how much are you pushing, and how do you rationalize the ratio of work/play you are working with? Not pointing fingers or talking down on your work ethic, just looking for insight on someone who has a different priority set then me. Because in my head, my mentality and work ethic are the most logically, but this is obviously not the case for you and I am curious as to why. That's why I made this post. To learn from other people.

I gave a half-ass apology for the eye rolling post. Here's a more direct one: I'm sorry for laughing at you and your post. If I made you very uncomfortable, I can delete it.

I think a lot of people think this what they want, but that very few of them actually do want it. They only see the good in the situation, and fail to see the negatives until it is too late.

However, we generally only hear from the ones that are unhappy. Unfortunately this is not a very representative population. We'll probably never hear from the ones that are happy (and not many people will know them well enough to tell us).

Good luck to you with your ratio

 

[colbgw02]

OP, there's nothing wrong with your approach if that's what makes you happy. Just realize that you're a bit of an outlier among a generation that is very family-oriented.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I guess, the constant bombardment of skeptical remarks from my peers. "You can't do good bench research and a be good surgeon," "You can't do research and surgery and have a family". I know people who balance the research and the surgery beautifully, and people are assuming that my dream is to have this picture perfect family. I try to keep myself unaffected by others opinions, but sometimes it seeps in. I like doing what I am doing. I want to keep doing what I'm doing. Don't like when people think I'm crazy or socially off because I don't have the idealized American dream as my goal. And I guess thats why I feel a little bitter. If there was no one pointing fingers and calling me a loon, I would't feel like one at all lol. Also, SDN is my way to vent ideas that bother me without reaching out to my direct social circle. So thanks for the psychiatric help everyone.

I went through a phase like this and found it best just to keep my ideas from my immediate social circle. Focus that energy into "doing" instead of "talking about doing". That's the only way you're going to really find out what you want and what you like. Go for it, if your priorities do change later in life, then at least you can look back and know that up to that point, you left nothing on the table.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Good for him or not, it doesn't matter. Medicine used to select for his sort of personality because it is far more useful to have a surgeon that clocks 80-100 hours a week contentedly till the end of time than two surgeons that begrudgingly attempt to maintain a work-life balance while working 50 hours a week, since the former will cover more cases, require less training time/money, and be more proficient than the latter. Medicine has just changed and this guy still has the old school mentality. It will serve us well to have an academic like him someday.

I disagree with the first bolded, agree with the second. Only he can make this judgement, but the problem is that this attitude can be a kindof positive feedback loop.

It will be difficult to figure out if unhappiness in this situation stems from training, over-working, or lacking a life outside of work. Even if it is possible to trace the source to "too much work," it will be difficult to swap out of residency. The culture of medicine will reassure him that unhappiness is temporary, if he can just get past this next step.

It will be easy to see positives, with accomplishments and praise from fellow workers/bosses (who don't give a damn about his home life). So it's easy to tell what he likes about the situation, and difficult to see the negatives.

If he goes the neurosurgeon route, he'll be roughly 35 by the time he's out of training. That's a lot of life to lose if the gamble goes wrong (he really does want family/home, like many people this age). If he were my friend, I would discourage him from taking the route unless he was absolutely sure.

But this crap is just me, and I understand that I may be very wrong. Especially for any given individual.

 

[Mad Jack]

If and when he figures it out he can right the course and dial back. That's why it doesn't matter. The only way he'll end up trapped in an awful situation is if he lets himself be so. Once he reaches rotations he'll probably get a better feel for whether his hellish path is worthwhile or not.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

You sound like a blast.

 

[Mad Jack]

But then....what do they want to talk about at lunch? The weather? lol

You could always not talk about medicine and talk about what normal people that aren't in medical school talk about. That's totally an option.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

If and when he figures it out he can right the course and dial back. That's why it doesn't matter. The only way he'll end up trapped in an awful situation is if he lets himself be so. Once he reaches rotations he'll probably get a better feel for whether his hellish path is worthwhile or not.

If we all lived forever, I would agree. I feel like this is a pretty heavy cost to have to pay in personal experience. I guess it matters to me because I could have fallen into this trap. Same probably goes for a lot of people who are irritating OP.

Good luck OP, hope you make the decision that's right for you.

 

[Mad Jack]

If we all lived forever, I would agree. I feel like this is a pretty heavy cost to have to pay in personal experience. I guess it matters to me because I could have fallen into this trap. Same probably goes for a lot of people who are irritating OP.

Good luck OP, hope you make the decision that's right for you.

I fell into the other trap (get married! Get settled! Enjoy life and don't take the hard road!) and regret it horribly. I still wouldn't undo what I've been through, but my god was it a mistake. I wish I'd busted my ass and worked hard so I could be set right now instead of a fresh med student.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

I fell into the other trap (get married! Get settled! Enjoy life and don't take the hard road!) and regret it horribly. I still wouldn't undo what I've been through, but my god was it a mistake. I wish I'd busted my ass and worked hard so I could be set right now instead of a fresh med student.

Very true, and good point! That's actually worse. Screw over two people, and get to deal with the fall-out from the family.

Rushing either decision is probably unwise, and listening to friends and family won't always help (or worse, an idiot like me over the internet).
I hadn't given that position much thought, thank you for posting

 

[Kangal]

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[Frazier]

Do what makes you content, OP.

However, if you go in thinking "I'll be a crappy husband, a halfway decent father"...perhaps it is wise to take extra pause before venturing into a serious relationship and fatherhood. Certainly nothing wrong with that.

While there are plenty of women who are understanding and flexible about the partner working a hectic schedule -- I don't know if there are many that seek out and want a self-prophesized "crappy husband and halfway decent father".

Good luck.

 

[nmm1881]

I am finding a lack of similarity with a lot of my medical student peers. I have one MD/PhD buddy who is like me, and I'm sure there are a couple of kids in my class like me (haven't talked intimately with everyone). Everyone seems to want the white picket fence, watch their son's soccer game, BBQ on Saturday kind of life. Am I odd for not caring about this? Don't get me wrong, I want a wife, kids, maybe a decent house with a yard...but does the want for this come close to my want to be an academic surgeon -- absolutely not. If I want to do any basic science research worth a damn, and have peak surgical skills, you bet your ass I'll be working 80+ hours a week. Am I naive enough to say my emotional standpoint on the topic won't change throughout the next few years, particularly once I have kids? No. But goals are goals and I am setting up my career based on what I feel now. I am mentored by a neurosurgeon-scientist who regularly pushes 100 hours a weeks. He's a beast, walks tall, and is high on life. Not the happiest- go lucky type of guy, but his ego fuels his beast work. Married too, has kids, doesn't talk about them much. But he likes it. For me, I can't imagine even enjoying free time if I had it every single weekend. I'm not trolling, this is me. I know others just like me. I am uptight, study a ton, enjoy being busy, if I'm not stressed about work I feel guilty because I'm wasting time doing things that aren't benefitting anyone but myself. People tell me to calm down, and I don't see why. I guess my reason for this post is to pose a question. I'm not looking for someone to tell me why my mentality is bad, I am just curious how others rationalize the particular work/play ratio they've established as "acceptable" in their practice. I know how mine will be, I know why I want the balance that I want - 96 work/4 play. So enlighten me on what your balance of work/play is, and why you don't bug out by not doing more, or even, why do you work so much and not play at all (maybe your justification is different than mine)?

I feel the same way. Just do whatever you want. Don't worry if others don't approve of your priorities or think your ambition is somehow naive.

Weird request, but I was wondering if you could give me the email of that neurosurgeon-scientist. I want a career in both basic sciences and neurosurgery. Everyone I've ever mentioned this to (including the neurosurgeons at my school) have been pretty dismissive of the idea, said it's not feasible, etc. I'd love to talk to someone who has actually done this and find how they got where they are.

 

[graviton]

More power to you!

I'm more of a lifestyle specialty kind of a guy.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Edit: This goes out to all the baby mamas, mamas.

 

[Kangal]

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[Mad Jack]

Third option, these aren't mutually exclusive. Can be settled, doing well, and still be a fresh med student. 😉

Ah, but it turned out that want what I wanted, nor what my last fiancée wanted. You can have everything, but only if it is both your goal and something you plan for from the start. A lot of women aren't okay with their husbands just running off to med school at 30. And a lot of people aren't meant to settle down.

Both of those things applied to my situation, but I got a bit too caught up with what society thought was the "right" path and didn't bother thinking that maybe a wife and kids just aren't what I want, ever. Hence why I'm telling op to find his own way- thinking everyone else knew better than me how life should operate damn near ruined my life. Thank god I never had kids and ended up with no alimony.

 

[chajjohnson]

I was a lot like you in my pre-med years. Studied constantly, got the highest score in just about every class I took, did bench research 20-30 hours a week, overall I put just about all my time into preparing for med school and was very productive (great MCAT score, good research pubs, high GPA, plenty of volunteer stuff). However, I literally made zero friends during my four years of college. I saw all my peers as competitors and considered them enemies. The only connection I made was with my now-wife, but even that was hard to balance. I eventually realized the reasons I was so die-hard about school and achievements were purely egotistical: I wanted to be the best, I wanted to be smarter and better than others, I wanted respect, I wanted to prove myself to all the girls in high school who rejected me and the people who bullied me (kind of kidding, but insecurity really did play a huge role in how hard I worked). Not to mention that scientific fields also push people to do this kind of thing. Despite my accomplishments, I still felt a large sense of emptiness no matter how much I "achieved". I had thought that doing well in school and research would fulfill me but it didn't.

Eventually I learned there are many, many things in life that fulfill me more than achievements in science and medicine (wife, friends, outdoors stuff, fitness). I still love medicine and it's the only career I can see myself doing, but I'm not going to devote myself 100% to it because I know I need more out of life.

If you feel 100% fulfilled devoting your entire life to medical pursuits, go for it. The world will be a better place for it. Just make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. If you genuinely love the process of research and medicine, that's great, you'll be happy. If you just want to be a rockstar scientist, getting all the b*tches and speaking on TV next to NDT and Bill Nye, you'll probably be disappointed.

Also, just a personal opinion, if you haven't met a woman who makes you want to cut back on your studies to spend time with her, you haven't met your future wife.

 

[sinombre]

Ah, but it turned out that want what I wanted, nor what my last fiancé wanted.

I think you mean fiancée. Unless of course you don't, which is fine as well.

I'm assuming you're already aware of the difference in spelling and this is just a typo, but I wasn't until well after I was engaged

 

[Mad Jack]

I think you mean fiancée. Unless of course you don't, which is fine as well.

I'm assuming you're already aware of the difference in spelling and this is just a typo, but I wasn't until well after I was engaged

Autocorrect doesn't like fiancée it seems, nor does SDN's spelling filter.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I think you mean fiancée. Unless of course you don't, which is fine as well.

I'm assuming you're already aware of the difference in spelling and this is just a typo, but I wasn't until well after I was engaged

"Pardon my Parisian" - jay

 

[Trod]

If you want a wife and kids, you'll need to find a pretty amazing woman to put up with the lifestyle. Ultimately, "If Mama ain't happy, aint nobody happy". My father has worked 80+ hours a week for the past 35 or so years as a primary care physician, fortunately my mom is really strong and also has close family support. She raised me and my siblings but he was there for the important events, and the time we spent together was valuable. I have lots of good memories with my father growing up even though he wasn't around much. As said in a previous post, its about quality not quantity.

 

[nmm1881]

For anonymity, I rather not, reason being is there are very few MD/PhD students at my school, if you know the surgeons institution you'll know mine, and then you'll know who I am, and I'd prefer to remain an anonymous user. With that said, Google MD/PhD neurosurgery, look at the list of individuals, and sift through their publications. Most of them are just pumping out clinical work with relations to TBI, but you will stumble upon a few who are co-authors of very basic sciencey projects. My mentor is a PI of many clinical projects, and a collaborating scientist on many other lab based projects, basic science projects, but he is not the PI of a lab.

No worries. Thanks, I'll try that!

 

[Kangal]

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[chajjohnson]

Sad to say, I was exactly the same way in undergrad. Pushed everyone away, because I figured they were competition. Even those who I would help study, never did I do anything malicious to them, but I kept an emotional distance from them because they were potential competition. Always felt/feel like I want to be the best. In medical school, I still have the same drive, the same "I'm the best ego", but not at the price of disliking others for being in the same applicant pool as me. I think the dual degree thing helped for that a lot, it made my 1st and 2nd year peers non-threats because we weren't applying at the same time, so it allowed me put my guard down and just hit the books with a less malicious motive. For all I know, I am trying to fill a void. But I've been like this for the last 20 or so years and I am not about to have a major change anytime soon. Whatever motivates me I guess.... Anyway, from what it look like, my peers opinions are as such: nsurg is not considered the coolest specialty, and MD/PhDs are nerds. I hardly think I'm making anyone jealous lol. Now about that wife...if I do find a woman who can handle by BS...I'll be sure to post on SDN about my great fortune lol! I like the grind.

As long as you're not unhappy doing the things you're doing and like the person you've become I see nothing wrong with any of this. Your classmates are making you feel bad about it because people like to reinforce their life choices. They like to feel they've made the right choices in life (by making family and free time a priority over medicine), and they see you doing the exact opposite which makes them question their choices. They can rectify this by either making you conform to them or putting down your life choices as inferior. Like everyone else has said, just ignore what other people think about you and do what you want to do. For me, I was pushing myself to be someone I didn't really want to be just to "impress" others and didn't enjoy the selfish person I was becoming, so I put other things before schoolwork and became much happier. That's not to say you should do the same, just make sure you're doing this for the right reasons. If you make it about your ego your life will be a constant struggle against anyone you perceive as better than you, and trust me, there's always someone smarter than you.

 

[KinasePro]

I wanted to be the best, I wanted to be smarter and better than others, I wanted respect, I wanted to prove myself to all the girls in high school who rejected me and the people who bullied me (kind of kidding, but insecurity really did play a huge role in how hard I worked). Not to mention that scientific fields also push people to do this kind of thing. Despite my accomplishments, I still felt a large sense of emptiness no matter how much I "achieved". I had thought that doing well in school and research would fulfill me but it didn't.

Eventually I learned there are many, many things in life that fulfill me more than achievements in science and medicine (wife, friends, outdoors stuff, fitness). I still love medicine and it's the only career I can see myself doing, but I'm not going to devote myself 100% to it because I know I need more out of life.

I understand this line of thinking, and I'm sure I've been guilty of it at times. But for most of my life, my philosophy has just been to work very hard and enjoy the fruits of my labor. It's not that I'm getting an ego boost out of accomplishing things, it's just that I believe I should excel as much as possible and all parties involved will benefit.

Some people spend a huge amount of time on hobbies, which brings their own set of egotistical rewards. You appear balanced, "cool", athletic, or talented to other people when you excel at a hobby. For me, hobbies are great but I'd rather accomplish great things and/or contribute to my field than be the strongest guy in the gym or best golfer or whatever.

I guess I just take a hyper-rational approach to my free time, and choose to spend it on what will yield the greatest reward for me and my family, at risk of appearing less "balanced" to most. But as long as I can relate to my patients and friends, I don't personally see it as a problem. I have no existential stake in working extremely hard, it's just how I prefer to go about things. But again, I'm fortunate to have a spouse that supports and values this type of work ethic, so it may not be the same for everyone.

 

[DermViser]

I am finding a lack of similarity with a lot of my medical student peers. I have one MD/PhD buddy who is like me, and I'm sure there are a couple of kids in my class like me (haven't talked intimately with everyone). Everyone seems to want the white picket fence, watch their son's soccer game, BBQ on Saturday kind of life. Am I odd for not caring about this? Don't get me wrong, I want a wife, kids, maybe a decent house with a yard...but does the want for this come close to my want to be an academic surgeon -- absolutely not. If I want to do any basic science research worth a damn, and have peak surgical skills, you bet your ass I'll be working 80+ hours a week. Am I naive enough to say my emotional standpoint on the topic won't change throughout the next few years, particularly once I have kids? No. But goals are goals and I am setting up my career based on what I feel now. I am mentored by a neurosurgeon-scientist who regularly pushes 100 hours a weeks. He's a beast, walks tall, and is high on life. Not the happiest- go lucky type of guy, but his ego fuels his beast work. Married too, has kids, doesn't talk about them much. But he likes it. For me, I can't imagine even enjoying free time if I had it every single weekend. I'm not trolling, this is me. I know others just like me. I am uptight, study a ton, enjoy being busy, if I'm not stressed about work I feel guilty because I'm wasting time doing things that aren't benefitting anyone but myself. People tell me to calm down, and I don't see why. I guess my reason for this post is to pose a question. I'm not looking for someone to tell me why my mentality is bad, I am just curious how others rationalize the particular work/play ratio they've established as "acceptable" in their practice. I know how mine will be, I know why I want the balance that I want - 96 work/4 play. So enlighten me on what your balance of work/play is, and why you don't bug out by not doing more, or even, why do you work so much and not play at all (maybe your justification is different than mine)?

I'll bet ROAD specialty by end of M3.

 

[LostinLift]

I am finding a lack of similarity with a lot of my medical student peers. I have one MD/PhD buddy who is like me, and I'm sure there are a couple of kids in my class like me (haven't talked intimately with everyone). Everyone seems to want the white picket fence, watch their son's soccer game, BBQ on Saturday kind of life. Am I odd for not caring about this? Don't get me wrong, I want a wife, kids, maybe a decent house with a yard...but does the want for this come close to my want to be an academic surgeon -- absolutely not. If I want to do any basic science research worth a damn, and have peak surgical skills, you bet your ass I'll be working 80+ hours a week. Am I naive enough to say my emotional standpoint on the topic won't change throughout the next few years, particularly once I have kids? No. But goals are goals and I am setting up my career based on what I feel now. I am mentored by a neurosurgeon-scientist who regularly pushes 100 hours a weeks. He's a beast, walks tall, and is high on life. Not the happiest- go lucky type of guy, but his ego fuels his beast work. Married too, has kids, doesn't talk about them much. But he likes it. For me, I can't imagine even enjoying free time if I had it every single weekend. I'm not trolling, this is me. I know others just like me. I am uptight, study a ton, enjoy being busy, if I'm not stressed about work I feel guilty because I'm wasting time doing things that aren't benefitting anyone but myself. People tell me to calm down, and I don't see why. I guess my reason for this post is to pose a question. I'm not looking for someone to tell me why my mentality is bad, I am just curious how others rationalize the particular work/play ratio they've established as "acceptable" in their practice. I know how mine will be, I know why I want the balance that I want - 96 work/4 play. So enlighten me on what your balance of work/play is, and why you don't bug out by not doing more, or even, why do you work so much and not play at all (maybe your justification is different than mine)?

People have different perspectives on life. I find your work ethic very admirable and hope you make great strides for the future of medicine. However, I want to spend my life doing many other things - there is so much in this world to discover and so little time. If you have truly found that work and medicine satisfy you to your core, then you should feel no doubt or guilt about that.

 

[starstarie]

I dated a guy who is doing his neurosurgery residency who sounds a lot like you. He's still single but happy. Everyone has a different capacity for being alone.

If you are already imagining yourself as a crappy husband you probably won't make it too far in the wife department. Even though there are people out there who also don't need as much attention, I don't know how many people will be comfortable with being 2nd (or lower), on the priority list ALL the time unless they have an ulterior motive. That's not to say it impossible to find someone who will understand your wanting to sacrifice some things for you job ( esp if she is doing the same?) But in the end relationships and about give and take. If one side is always taking without really giving, it doesn't work out...

Just something to think about!

 

[zeppelinpage4]

I am finding a lack of similarity with a lot of my medical student peers. I have one MD/PhD buddy who is like me, and I'm sure there are a couple of kids in my class like me (haven't talked intimately with everyone). Everyone seems to want the white picket fence, watch their son's soccer game, BBQ on Saturday kind of life. Am I odd for not caring about this? Don't get me wrong, I want a wife, kids, maybe a decent house with a yard...but does the want for this come close to my want to be an academic surgeon -- absolutely not. If I want to do any basic science research worth a damn, and have peak surgical skills, you bet your ass I'll be working 80+ hours a week. Am I naive enough to say my emotional standpoint on the topic won't change throughout the next few years, particularly once I have kids? No. But goals are goals and I am setting up my career based on what I feel now. I am mentored by a neurosurgeon-scientist who regularly pushes 100 hours a weeks. He's a beast, walks tall, and is high on life. Not the happiest- go lucky type of guy, but his ego fuels his beast work. Married too, has kids, doesn't talk about them much. But he likes it. For me, I can't imagine even enjoying free time if I had it every single weekend. I'm not trolling, this is me. I know others just like me. I am uptight, study a ton, enjoy being busy, if I'm not stressed about work I feel guilty because I'm wasting time doing things that aren't benefitting anyone but myself. People tell me to calm down, and I don't see why. I guess my reason for this post is to pose a question. I'm not looking for someone to tell me why my mentality is bad, I am just curious how others rationalize the particular work/play ratio they've established as "acceptable" in their practice. I know how mine will be, I know why I want the balance that I want - 96 work/4 play. So enlighten me on what your balance of work/play is, and why you don't bug out by not doing more, or even, why do you work so much and not play at all (maybe your justification is different than mine)?

Live life the way you want to and don't give a **** about what others are doing. You don't have to explain the way you approach school to others, same way they don't have to explain it to you, just focus on yourself. We need doctors like you, and we need the more balanced doctors too.

Edit: If you want some actual suggestions, try to spend more time with the few students who have similar mentality to yours. You'll have folks you can chat with on the same level and you won't feel judged for it.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

I'll put the over/under at 3 wives.

 

[235009]

In another thread someone said that medicine marries psychopathology with the corresponding specialty. This is a perfect example. Also I have no doubt you'll find a woman who is perfectly happy to marry and procreate with you because of what you can provide. She will find emotional (and possibly sexual) fulfillment elsewhere and your kids will be fairly normal since you'll have a high socioeconomic status (though probably not emotionally normal).

To answer your question I feel that as I get older I want more free time and am quickly getting over the ridiculous rat race and competitiveness of some parts of medicine.

 

[cs24]

I am finding a lack of similarity with a lot of my medical student peers. I have one MD/PhD buddy who is like me, and I'm sure there are a couple of kids in my class like me (haven't talked intimately with everyone). Everyone seems to want the white picket fence, watch their son's soccer game, BBQ on Saturday kind of life. Am I odd for not caring about this? Don't get me wrong, I want a wife, kids, maybe a decent house with a yard...but does the want for this come close to my want to be an academic surgeon -- absolutely not. If I want to do any basic science research worth a damn, and have peak surgical skills, you bet your ass I'll be working 80+ hours a week. Am I naive enough to say my emotional standpoint on the topic won't change throughout the next few years, particularly once I have kids? No. But goals are goals and I am setting up my career based on what I feel now. I am mentored by a neurosurgeon-scientist who regularly pushes 100 hours a weeks. He's a beast, walks tall, and is high on life. Not the happiest- go lucky type of guy, but his ego fuels his beast work. Married too, has kids, doesn't talk about them much. But he likes it. For me, I can't imagine even enjoying free time if I had it every single weekend. I'm not trolling, this is me. I know others just like me. I am uptight, study a ton, enjoy being busy, if I'm not stressed about work I feel guilty because I'm wasting time doing things that aren't benefitting anyone but myself. People tell me to calm down, and I don't see why. I guess my reason for this post is to pose a question. I'm not looking for someone to tell me why my mentality is bad, I am just curious how others rationalize the particular work/play ratio they've established as "acceptable" in their practice. I know how mine will be, I know why I want the balance that I want - 96 work/4 play. So enlighten me on what your balance of work/play is, and why you don't bug out by not doing more, or even, why do you work so much and not play at all (maybe your justification is different than mine)?

I was going to make a snarky comment about how surprised I was that you find time to post on SDN, but then I read the thread, and saw that you are a reasonable person, not trolling, and seem to have thought about this a good deal.

I'm a pretty big believer that habits and exposure govern a large part of our lives. Back when I was habitually a very hard worker, and spent much less time dicking around on the internet like I do now, I was very satisfied with my life. Now, I have much more down time, and am still about as satisfied with life as I was then. Within reason (and of course this varies with different people), I think a work/play balance far skewed in the work category is perfectly compatible with a satisfying life. It is up to you to decide exactly what is important to you in life, and then go for it. If you want the wife, and she wants more of your time, you give it to her. If you want a family, you devote the resources/time to them, and work/anything else gets reduced. If you eat, sleep, and breathe neurosurgery, you can devote almost your whole life to that and probably be much happier than a lot of people who have much better work/life balance.

The fact that you are asking SDN if you are odd for your mentality may be a sign that your balance is a bit off, though. Something to think about. I personally really respect people who just fall head over heels for medicine, work their asses off, and make great contributions to their field, and think more people like that are great for the field as a whole. If that can be you in the future, and you are doing it for the right reasons, great.

 

[Mad Jack]