Worthlessness of 3rd year

[sozme]

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At my state M.D. school, 3rd year consists mainly of three things:

1. Sitting around doing absolutely nothing.
2. Shadowing volunteer faculty members who don't let you see or present any patients.
3. Engaging in time-filler pointless busywork (i.e. med-u.org interactive virtual patient cases).

The above 3 activities takes up >98% of our time.

Now you might say, "Well wait a minute. You are only a student. You don't get to jump in and do anything right away."

Really? Then what exactly is the purpose of 3rd year? Because shadowing is a completely worthless activity and the filler activities (online lectures or those horrid virtual cases) are compulsory things they make you do to feel like you aren't wasting your money (which you mostly are).

What is the purpose of 3rd year?
Should M3 students being doing a lot of shadowing (I.e. no hands on patient care experience)?
Is it right for schools to create "call" schedules for med students whereby they are forced to sit for 9 hours in an empty room doing absolutely nothing (because no one actually involves them in any patient care)?

 

[Merely]

lollll

 

[TaroBubbleTea]

Sounds like a waste of time. I think it's pretty school dependent though.

At my school, the impression I get from 3rd years is that they really get to do a lot and are expected to act as a member of the team. I'm only an M1 so I may be wrong.

 

[blub1212]

Yeah, this is completely school dependent.... We get to do a ton and a lot is expected of us during our M3 year at my school. Just do your best to be proactive and get involved. When you are on your call days (is 9 hours your total call?? ours are 28 lol) just glue yourself to the call team and follow them around like a lost puppy. Then you can at least observe what they are doing and learn that way. Also, look up the patients on your list and just start reading uptodate articles on all the conditions they have. That way even if you don't get to offer an opinion during rounds, you can go through the motions in your head and see what they did differently. Then ask them why they did things the way that they did.

 

[qwerty89]

At my state M.D. school, 3rd year consists mainly of three things:

1. Sitting around doing absolutely nothing.
2. Shadowing volunteer faculty members who don't let you see or present any patients.
3. Engaging in time-filler pointless busywork (i.e. med-u.org interactive virtual patient cases).

The above 3 activities takes up >98% of our time.

Now you might say, "Well wait a minute. You are only a student. You don't get to jump in and do anything right away."

Really? Then what exactly is the purpose of 3rd year? Because shadowing is a completely worthless activity and the filler activities (online lectures or those horrid virtual cases) are compulsory things they make you do to feel like you aren't wasting your money (which you mostly are).

What is the purpose of 3rd year?
Should M3 students being doing a lot of shadowing (I.e. no hands on patient care experience)?
Is it right for schools to create "call" schedules for med students whereby they are forced to sit for 9 hours in an empty room doing absolutely nothing (because no one actually involves them in any patient care)?

Where the hell are you going to school? Not seeing or presenting patients? Volunteer faculty?

 

[Psai]

This sounds like garbage. Third year does have downtime sometimes but your day should be filled with seeing and presenting patients. Otherwise you are wasting your time. Interactive patients can only teach you so much and I think they're better after you have an idea of how to do things. Nothing replaces bedside teaching with motivated teachers. Try to be an active participant, read up on patients, learn the drugs, learn the guidelines and protocols and read seminal papers. Be aggressive in trying to do things like lines and other procedures. Look up controversies like cabg vs pci for example and ask your preceptor about their thoughts.

 

[Vandelay Industries]

Obviously this varied depending on the rotation, but I learned that for M3, what you put into M3 is what you get out of it. You have to ASK how to helpful/be involved, and sometimes just jump in. Especially true on inpatient rotations like medicine/surgery. I remember I rotated on general surgery with another student who always complained about being ignored in the OR. Dude would walk in and stand in the corner, and never introduce himself to staff/offer to get gloves. I was allowed to close skin, assist (retract 🙄), and do more cool stuff because I introduced myself to the techs, wrote my name on the board, offered to get gloves, etc. Residents pick up on that stuff and will involve you more. I chosen to place lines, pull drains over the other student because of this kind of stuff.

Same for medicine. Intern getting slammed with admissions, offer to go see one of them and type up the HPI for them, and email it to them so it makes their life easier. Jumping through hoops? Yes.... but you are still learning through doing.

 

[Yadster101]

At my state M.D. school, 3rd year consists mainly of three things:

1. Sitting around doing absolutely nothing.
2. Shadowing volunteer faculty members who don't let you see or present any patients.
3. Engaging in time-filler pointless busywork (i.e. med-u.org interactive virtual patient cases).

The above 3 activities takes up >98% of our time.

Now you might say, "Well wait a minute. You are only a student. You don't get to jump in and do anything right away."

Really? Then what exactly is the purpose of 3rd year? Because shadowing is a completely worthless activity and the filler activities (online lectures or those horrid virtual cases) are compulsory things they make you do to feel like you aren't wasting your money (which you mostly are).

What is the purpose of 3rd year?
Should M3 students being doing a lot of shadowing (I.e. no hands on patient care experience)?
Is it right for schools to create "call" schedules for med students whereby they are forced to sit for 9 hours in an empty room doing absolutely nothing (because no one actually involves them in any patient care)?

Im not a 3rd year...but aren't you stressed about shelf exams and Step 2? How much are you studying for those?

 

[hallowmann]

Yeah, I have no idea what this is about. For one thing, you can actually control how much you participate. I've been on plenty of teams where if you sit and do the bare minimum, you don't do anything, but if you're proactive, you tell your interns that you want X, Y, & Z patients, go pre-round on them, check the EMR/charts and update the intern about those patients, then present those patients on rounds, etc. Sure, the intern, senior, and attending are already doing a better job than you at all that, but you're doing something. You can then write your notes (yeah most of the time no one reads them, but occasionally they do, and you get better at them when you see how residents are writing theirs), update the list/sign-out, etc.

As far as volunteer faculty, I guess I was with "volunteer" attendings on my electives, and they basically expected me to act like a mini-fellow, round on all the patients in their census, update them on consults, etc. and then show up for procedures/their rounds. To be honest, I probably learned more about the practice of medicine from them, but learned more medicine and teamwork in general on the wards.

In any case, in my experience the ones that complain they are shadowing are also the ones that don't volunteer for anything. If you think someone will be motivated to teach you when you show no motivation to learn and get involved, I really don't know what to tell you.

 

[Dave89]

Last year, I saw a post here making the point that the purpose of the clinical years of medical school is essentially to figure out what specialty you want to train in.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Nymphicus]

It is unfortunate you are having this experience. How far into third year/core rotations are you?

 

[Snoopy2006]

Are you rotating at hospitals without residents?

If there's a residency structure, your residents should allow you to present your patients. Your 3rd year experience sounds awful, and it sounds like an outlier experience to me. Sounds more like a community hospital than a true academic one.

 

[9909]

Where the hell are you going to school? Not seeing or presenting patients? Volunteer faculty?

Based on OPs history, maybe they go to UIC.

 

[cbrons]

Isn't OP the guy who claimed to be 100% managing patients in like July or August?

No that was a thread asking how to do an admission.

 

[Mad Jack]

At my state M.D. school, 3rd year consists mainly of three things:

1. Sitting around doing absolutely nothing.
2. Shadowing volunteer faculty members who don't let you see or present any patients.
3. Engaging in time-filler pointless busywork (i.e. med-u.org interactive virtual patient cases).

The above 3 activities takes up >98% of our time.

Now you might say, "Well wait a minute. You are only a student. You don't get to jump in and do anything right away."

Really? Then what exactly is the purpose of 3rd year? Because shadowing is a completely worthless activity and the filler activities (online lectures or those horrid virtual cases) are compulsory things they make you do to feel like you aren't wasting your money (which you mostly are).

What is the purpose of 3rd year?
Should M3 students being doing a lot of shadowing (I.e. no hands on patient care experience)?
Is it right for schools to create "call" schedules for med students whereby they are forced to sit for 9 hours in an empty room doing absolutely nothing (because no one actually involves them in any patient care)?

Lol. Hell, I go to a DO school and we've got one surgeon who says, "when you're with me, on day 1, you'll watch an appendectomy. Before you leave, you'll do one." Sounds like your rotations just suck. Third year isn't that awful everywhere.

 

[Frazier]

At my state M.D. school, 3rd year consists mainly of three things:

1. Sitting around doing absolutely nothing.
2. Shadowing volunteer faculty members who don't let you see or present any patients.
3. Engaging in time-filler pointless busywork (i.e. med-u.org interactive virtual patient cases).

The above 3 activities takes up >98% of our time.

Now you might say, "Well wait a minute. You are only a student. You don't get to jump in and do anything right away."

Really? Then what exactly is the purpose of 3rd year? Because shadowing is a completely worthless activity and the filler activities (online lectures or those horrid virtual cases) are compulsory things they make you do to feel like you aren't wasting your money (which you mostly are).

What is the purpose of 3rd year?
Should M3 students being doing a lot of shadowing (I.e. no hands on patient care experience)?
Is it right for schools to create "call" schedules for med students whereby they are forced to sit for 9 hours in an empty room doing absolutely nothing (because no one actually involves them in any patient care)?

...And then everyone gets awarded honors.

 

[cbrons]

Im not a 3rd year...but aren't you stressed about shelf exams and Step 2? How much are you studying for those?

There's a lot more to medical school and medical education (or should be) than just studying for standardized tests. There are things you actually have to learn to be a physician that aren't tested by the NBME.

 

[W19]

Report your school to the LCME...

 

[cbrons]

Report your school to the LCME...

Lol good 1

 

[Law2Doc]

At my state M.D. school, 3rd year consists mainly of three things:

1. Sitting around doing absolutely nothing.
2. Shadowing volunteer faculty members who don't let you see or present any patients.
3. Engaging in time-filler pointless busywork (i.e. med-u.org interactive virtual patient cases).

The above 3 activities takes up >98% of our time.

Now you might say, "Well wait a minute. You are only a student. You don't get to jump in and do anything right away."

Really? Then what exactly is the purpose of 3rd year? Because shadowing is a completely worthless activity and the filler activities (online lectures or those horrid virtual cases) are compulsory things they make you do to feel like you aren't wasting your money (which you mostly are).

What is the purpose of 3rd year?
Should M3 students being doing a lot of shadowing (I.e. no hands on patient care experience)?
Is it right for schools to create "call" schedules for med students whereby they are forced to sit for 9 hours in an empty room doing absolutely nothing (because no one actually involves them in any patient care)?

As mentioned, this sound like it has nothing to do with third year and 100% to do with your particular school. Virtually nobody else has this experience.

However, having been a resident supervising med students in the past, I would say the value of a rotation is often more about what you put into it. If you act like a superstar med student always eager to see or help, and volunteer for every opportunity, you'll see and do more. If someone says they are going to do X, ask if you can help. Don't wait until they ask if you want to -- be proactive. The residents first priority is the patient and second to keep the attending happy, and entertaining the med students is a pretty distant third, so don't be surprised if you aren't that much of a focus for them. If you are the type to whine about scut, the call schedule, or disappear to didactics for many hours a day, you probably will be the guy who doesn't get any hands on experience. If you are always the guy who says "can I help?", "can I try?", "can I watch?", your experience might be different. Residents were recently med students, they pretty much can tell who is enthusiastic about the rotation and who would rather be sent home early.

Enjoyment in medicine is 90% attitude. If you have the right mindset you are going to enjoy yourself. If you are prone to focus on what you aren't getting to do, how scutted out you are, that tends to snowball.

So imho OP, your issue is probably 60% program dependent, 40% mindset dependent, and has very little to do with the value of third year.

 

[HooliganSnail]

Are you rotating at hospitals without residents?

If there's a residency structure, your residents should allow you to present your patients. Your 3rd year experience sounds awful, and it sounds like an outlier experience to me. Sounds more like a community hospital than a true academic one.

No man, I trained at a hospital like this one as a third year, and it had tons of residents.

It is a cultural thing.

Some places the med student is just simply IGNORED. You show up at 7 am for sign out, sit there do nothing, then the team goes and sees patients, maybe you get "assigned" one of them, but you can't write the note, and they don't want to go over a plan with you, so for awhile you write one on a separate piece of paper, but no one really goes through it with you, so after awhile you just stop that. Then you "round", but since you didn't write the note, or go though the plan with any residents, because they ignore you, you just stand there while they talk about stuff, and your learning is almost non-existent. After a week of that, I guarantee everyone on this thread would completely CHECK OUT.

It was like this for almost all of third year. Occasionally there were really good senior residents who would take the time to teach you and bring you along, and I remember those people fondly to this day, but it really was horrible.

I am more proactive and assertive than anyone on this forum, and I assure you, when faced with this level of apathy in the hospital, you can not do anything. You just suffer. I hated every single day of third year. Worst, most pointless, most awful, boring year of my life.

Fortunately my school no longer sends med students to that hospital for core clerkship anymore, but me and several classes around me were lost causes.

 

[HooliganSnail]

As mentioned, this sound like it has nothing to do with third year and 100% to do with your particular school. Virtually nobody else has this experience.

However, having been a resident supervising med students in the past, I would say the value of a rotation is often more about what you put into it. If you act like a superstar med student always eager to see or help, and volunteer for every opportunity, you'll see and do more. If someone says they are going to do X, ask if you can help. Don't wait until they ask if you want to -- be proactive. The residents first priority is the patient and second to keep the attending happy, and entertaining the med students is a pretty distant third, so don't be surprised if you aren't that much of a focus for them. If you are the type to whine about scut, the call schedule, or disappear to didactics for many hours a day, you probably will be the guy who doesn't get any hands on experience. If you are always the guy who says "can I help?", "can I try?", "can I watch?", your experience might be different. Residents were recently med students, they pretty much can tell who is enthusiastic about the rotation and who would rather be sent home early.

Enjoyment in medicine is 90% attitude. If you have the right mindset you are going to enjoy yourself. If you are prone to focus on what you aren't getting to do, how scutted out you are, that tends to snowball.

So is say OP, your issue is probably 60% program dependent, 40% mindset dependent, and has very little to do with the value of third year.

Sorry Man, but your just wrong.

You can't relate because you have never been through it. It is 98% program dependent. You are making the mistake of thinking that just because your experience was one way, that all other experiences must be that way. I am telling you that some hospitals are black holes for med students.

Obviously his mindset is that he wants to learn, otherwise he wouldn't be on this forum obviously frustrated with his situation.

He is in an abusive hospital. Don't tell the abused that it's really their fault.

 

[HooliganSnail]

At my state M.D. school, 3rd year consists mainly of three things:

1. Sitting around doing absolutely nothing.
2. Shadowing volunteer faculty members who don't let you see or present any patients.
3. Engaging in time-filler pointless busywork (i.e. med-u.org interactive virtual patient cases).

The above 3 activities takes up >98% of our time.

Now you might say, "Well wait a minute. You are only a student. You don't get to jump in and do anything right away."

Really? Then what exactly is the purpose of 3rd year? Because shadowing is a completely worthless activity and the filler activities (online lectures or those horrid virtual cases) are compulsory things they make you do to feel like you aren't wasting your money (which you mostly are).

What is the purpose of 3rd year?
Should M3 students being doing a lot of shadowing (I.e. no hands on patient care experience)?
Is it right for schools to create "call" schedules for med students whereby they are forced to sit for 9 hours in an empty room doing absolutely nothing (because no one actually involves them in any patient care)?

Don't listen to these posters man.

I had a horrid experience just like you did. Every day dragged on and on. Getting up was really hard to do. You are just completely ignored, and no matter how you try to change your attitude or eagerness, it's like talking to a wall.

What I learned from the experience is this. The "point" is to survive. I wish I could tell you that there was some silver lining to the whole thing, and afterwards I was better for it, but that is a lie. The one thing I can tell you is that your DME and med school will listen to what you tell them, sort of....

They want you to have a great experience. If your experience is poor they want to know about it. They will make changes, but unfortunately it will never effect you. It can only help the classes after you. The hospital I was at was dropped from the core clerkship by my med school, and a large part of that was because of the feedback they were getting from med students like myself. So the bright side is that I know that the people coming after me never have to go through such a pointless year like I did.

When you become a resident, it will be so much fun. You finally get to go the show, and run things a little bit. So there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Stay strong.

 

[Law2Doc]

Sorry Man, but your just wrong.

You can't relate because you have never been through it. It is 98% program dependent. You are making the mistake of thinking that just because your experience was one way, that all other experiences must be that way. I am telling you that some hospitals are black holes for med students.

Obviously his mindset is that he wants to learn, otherwise he wouldn't be on this forum obviously frustrated with his situation.

He is in an abusive hospital. Don't tell the abused that it's really their fault.

I can buy that you and he were at crummy rotations.
But I've seen enough hospitals and talked to enough colleagues from different schools at this point to be able to say this is an anomaly and that 3rd year, in general is simply not a waste of time at most places.

I have however also come across a fair number of people who squandered opportunities during rotations, as well as residents who shrugged and let unengaged/disgruntled med students stay at a distance, so it's difficult to parse out "blame" sometimes.

 

[HooliganSnail]

I can buy that you and he were at crummy rotations.
But I've seen enough hospitals and talked to enough colleagues from different schools at this point to be able to say this is an anomaly and that 3rd year, in general is simply not a waste of time at most places.

I have however also come across a fair number of people who squandered opportunities during rotations, as well as residents who shrugged and let unengaged/disgruntled med students stay at a distance, so it's difficult to parse out "blame" sometimes.

O, I'll concede it was an anomaly, because no one else at my school had as bad of a time as my colleges did (our school has several different hospitals, but your do your "core" third year at only one)

I am just saying those places are out there, and they are more common that people think. I also went to a great med school, so it's not the quality of the school, it is just local culture.

I have also had tons of med students under me ( I'm a resident now) who are obviously not interested, so I don't bother teaching them anything, so that part is definitely true too.

 

[Goro]

100% spot on, as usual. We purposely do not send certain students to certain rotation sites because we know that they can end up blending into the shadows, instead of actually going hands on. These kids we keep close to home and so our Clinical Faculty can keep a better eye on them. Our students who are naturally hard workers can excel anywhere, and even in a McDonalds, they'll find a way to do H&Ps.

I can buy that you and he were at crummy rotations.
But I've seen enough hospitals and talked to enough colleagues from different schools at this point to be able to say this is an anomaly and that 3rd year, in general is simply not a waste of time at most places.

I have however also come across a fair number of people who squandered opportunities during rotations, as well as residents who shrugged and let unengaged/disgruntled med students stay at a distance, so it's difficult to parse out "blame" sometimes.

 

[mimelim]

Sorry Man, but your just wrong.

You can't relate because you have never been through it. It is 98% program dependent. You are making the mistake of thinking that just because your experience was one way, that all other experiences must be that way. I am telling you that some hospitals are black holes for med students.

Obviously his mindset is that he wants to learn, otherwise he wouldn't be on this forum obviously frustrated with his situation.

He is in an abusive hospital. Don't tell the abused that it's really their fault.

The problem that I have with this two fold.

#1 In medical school I heard constantly from other medical students how bad the clinical rotations were, while we were on the same rotations... 90%+ of those was a personal/attitude issue, not the rotation. There certainly were worse rotations and there are plenty of bad preceptors, but no school is 'universally' so.

#2 Now on the other side of a surgery clerkship, I see the evaluations and there are ~10% of students who say the exact same things as the OP despite the fact that the vast majority of their colleagues disagree and there is always stuff to do. When you look at who is making those comments, they tend to be the ones with entitlement issues and are expecting the world to feed them constantly.

Nobody is going to have a perfect run of preceptors/training sites. But, frankly students making piss poor use of their opportunities is at least an order of magnitude a bigger problem than poor training opportunities.

 

[Señor S]

What is the purpose of 3rd year?
Should M3 students being doing a lot of shadowing (I.e. no hands on patient care experience)?
Is it right for schools to create "call" schedules for med students whereby they are forced to sit for 9 hours in an empty room doing absolutely nothing (because no one actually involves them in any patient care)?

I wonder if we go to the same school. Ok, not quite that bad, but I still feel like giant swaths of time are being wasted. "Be proactive" is to me more nice-sounding-but-useless SDN advice: I've almost never gotten a good response from my requests and most residents and attendings give off a fairly strong "I'm busy, don't bother me" vibe. Isn't it understood that med students would like to be involved in some way? That's why we're here, no? Even if a student is apathetic involvement in patient care shouldn't be "optional" any more than doing rotations or taking the USMLE is optional.

The problem is that the current system was designed to train some kind of all-purpose general practitioner who could do basic medicine, pediatrics, Ob/Gyn and surgery after 4 years of med school and 1 year of internship. That type of doctor doesn't exist anymore, and with residency being de facto mandatory there's a very strong inclination to push everything off until then. On Ob/Gyn we were told that they "can't guarantee you'll get to deliver a baby" (unsurprisingly no one has) but that if you decide to do Ob/Gyn "you'll deliver thousands of babies." That mentality is common, and only getting more common with each passing year. Add in the fact that med students can't do anything for billing purposes and you have all the motivation you need to be laissez-faire with us. And while I do accept that some schools are better than other, some rotations are better than others and some especially pushy students get more opportunities for themselves, the general trend is clear. No advice except the obvious: suck it up, don't let your justifiably bad attitude shine through, get as much as you can out of it, study hard for the shelf exams and set up some good away rotations. It'll be over soon enough.

 

[Mad Jack]

I am more proactive and assertive than anyone on this forum

Bahaha, bold statement m8

 

[URHere]

My only rotation that even remotely resembled this was OB/Gyn. The residents were overworked and wanted to be as efficient as possible so they often specifically told us not to write notes or pre-round on patients because it would slow them down. Most procedures and exams were off-limits because they would either require 2 uncomfortable exams for the patient or because there was an infection risk. I delivered SO MANY placentas and sutured a lot of lady bits, but it was a real battle to get involved with any medical management.

If your attendings and residents don't let any student manage and present patients, that's a huge issue that should be brought up to your medical school. If you seem to be the only one not allowed to do this, I would work extra hard on making any presentations/notes clear and concise. In my experience, students who are chronically relegated to "shadowing" are usually the most inefficient ones and the team does this because they don't want to be rounding until 3pm everyday. Also make sure that you seem interested. It's easy to ignore a student who looks like they want to disappear into the ether.

 

[mimelim]

I am more proactive and assertive than anyone on this forum

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaha

Okay Donald, thanks for the entertainment.

 

[Favoritefarm]

It's part of the obstacle course of med school buddy

 

[cbrons]

100% spot on, as usual. We purposely do not send certain students to certain rotation sites because we know that they can end up blending into the shadows, instead of actually going hands on. These kids we keep close to home and so our Clinical Faculty can keep a better eye on them. Our students who are naturally hard workers can excel anywhere, and even in a McDonalds, they'll find a way to do H&Ps.

This sounds like a passive aggressive way of calling med students who get nothing out of useless rotations somehow not hardworking. Believe it or not there are places where you are treated as a burden no matter how assertive or helpful you try to be.

 

[HooliganSnail]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhaha

Okay Donald, thanks for the entertainment.

Ironic that is the one thing everyone hangs on to.

The statement was to point out that I am not lazy, nor am I introverted, and is therefore not the reason for my horrible experience

I spent my clerkship in a bad hospital, and no matter how much you tried or how much you wanted to do some scut work, the culture was that the medical student was not part of the team on any rotation. I spent a lot of time sitting the the hospital library with a lot of other medical students.

The OP is unhappy with his rotations, virtually everyone on this forum has reasoned that he must be

A. Lazy
B. Unintelligent
C. At a "Bad" Medical School
D. Some mixture of all of the above

I am making the point that sometimes it really is just a crappy hospital. I am not lazy, dump, or unmotiviated, and I went to a good school, but I had the same exact experience as the OP.

And to wrap it all up, I know it was a bad hospital, because my medical school stopped sending students there for clerkship after my class left, because they came to understand it was just a bad hospital.

 

[Promethean]

This sounds like a passive aggressive way of calling med students who get nothing out of useless rotations somehow not hardworking. Believe it or not there are places where you are treated as a burden no matter how assertive or helpful you try to be.

True as it is that there are those who will mistreat even the hardest working med student, what you as the student personally get out of the experience is still more dependent upon what you put into it than anything else. All things being equal, the helpful and assertive student will have the better experience, even at the crappy rotation site.

And framing it as about hardworking vs. lazy isn't really capturing what makes the difference. It is all about attitude. Someone can be willing to work like a mule, but if they don't have genuine enthusiasm and interest, no one will go out of their way to help them.

EDIT: You are right, though. There are some malignant settings within medicine, and sometimes rotations will take you to them. It is not true that every student who is disappointed with a rotation site is obviously at fault. Though, if you start to notice that every site sucks, the problem may not be external.

It is true that even a disappointing site has much to yield to the student who knows how to look. Sometimes, learning how you DON'T want to practice is valuable, too.

 

[Goro]

Did you even read what I wrote? The sites are good sites, but they only reward those who have interests in their own destinies, meaning, those who actually want to learn something. The students who don't get anything out of these rotations are simply not making the effect. So yes, it's the students, not the rotation sites.

As my learned colleagues are trying very hard to point out, you get out of rotations (and med school, for that matter) what you put into it.

This sounds like a passive aggressive way of calling med students who get nothing out of useless rotations somehow not hardworking. Believe it or not there are places where you are treated as a burden no matter how assertive or helpful you try to be.

 

[cbrons]

The sites are good sites, but they only reward those who have interests in their own destinies, meaning, those who actually want to learn something.

Lol Ok. Sorry I just see your post as reminiscent of the admins at my own school who thought every rotation site was wonderful even though there were some that were complete garbage and the students got very little out of it.

You do get out of it what you put into it in most cases but most certainly not all of them.

 

[Hangry]

#2 Now on the other side of a surgery clerkship, I see the evaluations and there are ~10% of students who say the exact same things as the OP despite the fact that the vast majority of their colleagues disagree and there is always stuff to do. When you look at who is making those comments, they tend to be the ones with entitlement issues and are expecting the world to feed them constantly.

B-b-b-but I thought my evals were anonymous

 

[sliceofbread136]

As mentioned, this sound like it has nothing to do with third year and 100% to do with your particular school. Virtually nobody else has this experience.

However, having been a resident supervising med students in the past, I would say the value of a rotation is often more about what you put into it. If you act like a superstar med student always eager to see or help, and volunteer for every opportunity, you'll see and do more. If someone says they are going to do X, ask if you can help. Don't wait until they ask if you want to -- be proactive. The residents first priority is the patient and second to keep the attending happy, and entertaining the med students is a pretty distant third, so don't be surprised if you aren't that much of a focus for them. If you are the type to whine about scut, the call schedule, or disappear to didactics for many hours a day, you probably will be the guy who doesn't get any hands on experience. If you are always the guy who says "can I help?", "can I try?", "can I watch?", your experience might be different. Residents were recently med students, they pretty much can tell who is enthusiastic about the rotation and who would rather be sent home early.

Enjoyment in medicine is 90% attitude. If you have the right mindset you are going to enjoy yourself. If you are prone to focus on what you aren't getting to do, how scutted out you are, that tends to snowball.

So imho OP, your issue is probably 60% program dependent, 40% mindset dependent, and has very little to do with the value of third year.

Uh, are your school's didactics not required? Even if not some people find them valuable parts of their education. Considering that that is what the point of 3rd year is (not doing your scut), I don't see why you wouldn't support your students going.

This sounds like a passive aggressive way of calling med students who get nothing out of useless rotations somehow not hardworking. Believe it or not there are places where you are treated as a burden no matter how assertive or helpful you try to be.

I absolutely hate this ingrained bias in school administrators. "Why it can't be that our system has some sort of flaw, you are in fact the problem". I think it shows the people who really aren't on the side of the students. Luckily this hasn't been the case with any of my clerkship directors who always at the very least give your criticism consideration.

 

[Snoopy2006]

I'd buy HooliganSnail's comments. It's unusual for every rotation at a hospital to be that bad, but it's not unheard of. I had a great M3 year and learned lots. I still had one attending who walked up to me on the first morning he came on service and told me that "If I have one philosophy, it's that medical students should shut up and be seen, not heard." He would cut me off at the beginning of presentations routinely. He was excellent with residents, but had no interest in teaching or dealing with medical students at all. My attitude and what I put into the rotation didn't change compared to other rotations or even with other attendings on the same block, but my learning experience was severely impacted.

In general, I agree with the points made - most medical student complaints are BS and reek of entitlement and a lack of self-awareness. On the flip side, an argument can be made that administrations are slow to react and (partially because of student entitlement) tend to overlook legitimate concerns for far too long. There are certainly horrible teaching environments out there, and without more information, I'll take these posters at their word.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I'd buy HooliganSnail's comments. It's unusual for every rotation at a hospital to be that bad, but it's not unheard of. I had a great M3 year and learned lots. I still had one attending who walked up to me on the first morning he came on service and told me that "If I have one philosophy, it's that medical students should shut up and be seen, not heard." He would cut me off at the beginning of presentations routinely. He was excellent with residents, but had no interest in teaching or dealing with medical students at all. My attitude and what I put into the rotation didn't change compared to other rotations or even with other attendings on the same block, but my learning experience was severely impacted.

In general, I agree with the points made - most medical student complaints are BS and reek of entitlement and a lack of self-awareness. On the flip side, an argument can be made that administrations are slow to react and (partially because of student entitlement) tend to overlook legitimate concerns for far too long. There are certainly horrible teaching environments out there, and without more information, I'll take these posters at their word.

That type of person should not be assigned med students. Did your clerkship directors do anything about it?

 

[Snoopy2006]

That type of person should not be assigned med students. Did your clerkship directors do anything about it?

Not that I'm aware of. At least not by the time I graduated. I suggested the same thing - there were 2 other attendings who covered the same service, so I suggested med students just be assigned to those two attendings instead. If the bro doesn't want to teach medical students, don't force him. But no changes were made while I was there, at least.

 

[Law2Doc]

Uh, are your school's didactics not required? Even if not some people find them valuable parts of their education...

You misunderstood my statement. Didactics are absolutely important and totally fine for med students to attend. But a handful of med students will claim they are going to "didactics" as a built in excuse to get out of things and to just disappear for long stretches at a time. Hence my disappear "for many hours of the day" comment. Residents know the game. We noticed these guys sitting in the libraries, lounges and cafeterias. We didn't really care -- they were only cheating themselves. But then you frequently would hear those same people whine that third year is a waste and they didn't learn anything. Sorry but you can only get out what you put in.

 

[alpinism]

Did you even read what I wrote? The sites are good sites, but they only reward those who have interests in their own destinies, meaning, those who actually want to learn something. The students who don't get anything out of these rotations are simply not making the effect. So yes, it's the students, not the rotation sites.

As my learned colleagues are trying very hard to point out, you get out of rotations (and med school, for that matter) what you put into it.

You misunderstood my statement. Didactics are absolutely important and totally fine for med students to attend. But a handful of med students will claim they are going to "didactics" as a built in excuse to get out of things and to just disappear for long stretches at a time. Hence my disappear "for many hours of the day" comment. Residents know the game. We noticed these guys sitting in the libraries, lounges and cafeterias. We didn't really care -- they were only cheating themselves. But then you frequently would hear those same people whine that third year is a waste and they didn't learn anything. Sorry but you can only get out what you put in.

As others have mentioned, its not that black and white.

On the outpatient part of my OB/GYN rotation at least 30% of patients refused to see a male medical student. As a result I spent 1/3 of the time in clinic sitting in the break room reading UpToDate. No matter how much effort I put into the rotation it wasn't going to change the fact that I wasn't allowed to see those patients.

Some things are just out of your control as a medical student.

Like any relationship between 2 people, it takes a commitment from both sides to make it work. You need faculty who are willing to teach and students who are willing to learn. Bad rotations are due to a variety of causes: students, faculty, patients, hospital regulations, etc... Usually its a combination of many factors and not just one.

 

[PL198]

do you guys think med school should just be like 1 or 2 years and you take step 1 and you're done? because I see threads that are like "3rd year worthless" "4th year worthless" and then people also post how the minutiae of 1st year is pointless. so how do you honestly propose medical education working?

 

[Law2Doc]

do you guys think med school should just be like 1 or 2 years and you take step 1 and you're done? because I see threads that are like "3rd year worthless" "4th year worthless" and then people also post how the minutiae of 1st year is pointless. so how do you honestly propose medical education working?

It's different subsets of med students. There are some that are so ingrained with the book and lecture form of education where the teacher focuses on the student, that they don't like or necessarily know how to maximize value in the latter 2 years, where books are secondary and it's a team and patient focused approach. And then there's the people so ready to be done with the classroom setting from day 1 that they are annoyed with the prospect of learning background stuff they will never use as an ortho or whatever. So for them the first two years are an annoying hurdle of minutiae. You can't please everyone, and the truth is while every school could do things better, both schools of thought are mostly wrong.

 

[2018Duke]

do you guys think med school should just be like 1 or 2 years and you take step 1 and you're done? because I see threads that are like "3rd year worthless" "4th year worthless" and then people also post how the minutiae of 1st year is pointless. so how do you honestly propose medical education working?

Honestly, 3rd year should be four 3-month sub-internships in fields of your choice and then you graduate. 4th year becomes internship. You save a year of tuition, get to try out four specialties of your choice, and actually get on with your life. We can argue about the finer details of that setup but you get the point.

It is absolutely incredible how many people suffer from Stockholm Syndrome in medicine and think THINGS CAN NEVER CHANGE. BS, it can can change and the only reason it isn't is because of you people that say it can't.

 

[Psai]

Honestly, 3rd year should be four 3-month sub-internships in fields of your choice and then you graduate. 4th year becomes internship. You save a year of tuition, get to try out four specialties of your choice, and actually get on with your life. We can argue about the finer details of that setup but you get the point.

It is absolutely incredible how many people suffer from Stockholm Syndrome in medicine and think THINGS CAN NEVER CHANGE. BS, it can can change and the only reason it isn't is because of you people that say it can't.

And if you hate that field or get bad preceptors you are stuck with them for 3 months. No thanks

 

[PL198]

Honestly, 3rd year should be four 3-month sub-internships in fields of your choice and then you graduate. 4th year becomes internship. You save a year of tuition, get to try out four specialties of your choice, and actually get on with your life. We can argue about the finer details of that setup but you get the point.

It is absolutely incredible how many people suffer from Stockholm Syndrome in medicine and think THINGS CAN NEVER CHANGE. BS, it can can change and the only reason it isn't is because of you people that say it can't.

How in the world do you expect people to pick their fields when they don't even know what those fields are like?

 

[PL198]

it is interesting how most forms of education are in blocks of 4 years though.