Call all former Engineers and Lawyers

[PatentDoc]

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Hi all,

Can any of you shed advice on how your prior non-med academic credentials helped (or didn't help) your admission to med school. In particualr, can anyone shed light on how engineering and law degrees (and the combination) would help (or not) one's admission to med school.

As background, here is my situation. I graduated first (of about 30) in my Mechanical Engineering undergrad class. I graduated sixth (of 240) in my law school class. My law school is a tier one instituion (say, top twenty).

Assuming that I can well in my science courses while I work full time as an attorney, does anyone have any thoughts about my general chances of acceptance at in-state med school that accepts roughly 20% of in-state applicant's?

Thanks for your time.

 

[eagle1970]

From what I understand, and the experts out there can correct or qualify me, the factors that matter most to admission committees are undergraduated GPA score, pre-requisite courses GPA score, MCAT of course and exposure to real-life clinical environments, that is volunteering. I'm not sure if having a law degree would really help you. The engineering degree will probably be looked on as a BSc equivalent as most MD schools require an undergraduate degree to begin with.

Of course, you will have to give solid reasons as to why you are trying for a third profession!

 

[PatentDoc]

Thanks for your thoughts! And for clarification, this is actually a second profession, as being a patent attorney requires an engineering or science degree and a law degree. Also, I went straight to law school after undergrad, so I have never practiced as an engineer.

Thanks, again.

 

[Law2Doc]

Thanks for your thoughts! And for clarification, this is actually a second profession, as being a patent attorney requires an engineering or science degree and a law degree. Also, I went straight to law school after undergrad, so I have never practiced as an engineer.

Thanks, again.

Advanced degrees are most typically looked at as nice ECs, and the grad GPAs are generally ignored. Having worked as a professional before is somewhat useful, as it often allows you to talk about your transferrable skillset in essays and interviews, and schools value folks who had prior careers due to the diversity they add. However, as the prior person mentioned, it still all comes down to your undergrad GPA and MCAT in terms of getting looked at. You don't get an easier hurdle to vault due to your prior career, you simply have more to talk about that will set you apart from the other applicants with similar stats.

You will still have to have the requisite numbers, and if you don't have them, the requisite healthcare related ECs. This is probably much more important to a nontrad career changer, as schools expect you to have done more research than the typical undergrad before making a career change -- you really have to have a good idea of what you are getting yourself into. You also are going to have to have a really good explanation of why medicine, why now, and why the change. You cannot be perceived as running away from law -- medicine doesn't want other fields' castaways, or folks with a history of being unhappy, so you need to come up with a positive spin as to why you were drawn to medicine, not that you are disenchanted.

And bear in mind that since you were a patent lawyer, virtually every physician at every interview is going to remind you that you are unlikely in this day and age to get back to the income level you would be at if you stayed in law for the decade it's going to take to go to school and train. This is a financially losing move -- which is fine if that isn't a factor, but folks are going to want to make sure you know that.

 

[PatentDoc]

Wow. Excellent thoughts. Thank you very much. And yes, my wife and I are very aware of the income/wealth cut that we would take and never make up. I was hoping that taking this income cut would be factor (even if slight) proving my strong desire to serve.

 

[sawood]

Hi, if you do decide to apply, do your best to determine which schools are especially fond of the non-trads. Apply broadly, but be sure to include those on your list.

Also, each interviewer i had asked the why medicine, why now question. I think this question can really work in your favor. Remember, you've got good proof that you're not doing it for the money, parental pressure, prestige - otherwise you would have stayed where you were. Adding to that, make sure you've got some great clinical experiences to talk about to show you know what you're getting yourself into.

Good luck.

 

[Law2Doc]

Hi, if you do decide to apply, do your best to determine which schools are especially fond of the non-trads.

Disagree. This topic has come up over and over and over again, and honestly ALL med schools will be nontrad friendly if you have the stats, and none will be if you don't. Nontrad friendly is a concept you can look at if you are focused on whether schools might bend over backwards in terms of issues that affect nontrads, or whether a lot of your peers will be of similar age, but shouldn't be an admission concern. Meaning if you have the good stats and an interesting background lots of schools will be interested in you, even if you are going to be the lone elder in the class. In this day and age virtually all med schools are going to have someone older in their med school class. Hence all are nontrad friendly. So if you want to go to a school where you aren't the only 30+ year old, then sure, look at the couple of schools that take lots of nontrads. But if you don't care if your peers have fewer gray hairs, then just apply broadly and ignore the non-trad friendly notions. I repeat ALL allo med schools are NONTRAD FRIENDLY if you have the stats. None want a class of all nontrads. But most will take a couple with the stats for diversity reasons. I also will repeat my "white noise" argument -- that in terms of admissions you actually HURT YOURSELF if you focus on the supposedly "nontrad friendly" schools. Because no school will take a class mostly composed of nontrads. So they will pick the best handful and let the rest go. To have a few nontrads adds diversity -- to have a lot of nontrads loses it, and makes it less appealing to the trad applicants -- the schools' bread and butter. So in applying to these schools, you are not only competing with the other applicants, but also with the other nontrads to be one of the handful. So those nontrad friendly schools end up actually harder to get into for nontrads than if you applied broadly to less nontrad friendly schools.

Bad idea. Apply widely and broadly. And don't worry about "nontrad friendly" notions. Some others on SDN have different views on this, but in general you will have as good, if not better, chance of admission if you apply broadly and widely than if you apply to these nontrad friendly places. Of course, there are schools that handle nontrad issues/concerns better, and there may be advantages to not be the lone elder, but again, that has nothing to do with admissions, which seems to be the above poster's suggestion.

 

[sawood]

So I totally agree with the apply broadly idea, as I included in my previous post. However, I still dissagree that all schools see non-trads equally, just like not all schools place pure numbers (MCAT and GPA) on the same level of importance. Some schools really want you to have research experience, whereas some focus more on your clinical experience, etc.

 

[Law2Doc]

So I totally agree with the apply broadly idea, as I included in my previous post. However, I still dissagree that all schools see non-trads equally, just like not all schools place pure numbers (MCAT and GPA) on the same level of importance.

People second guess themselves out of acceptances and very good fits by focusing applications on supposedly nontrad friendly schools. You come out way ahead if you ignore this component and just apply to places you want that your stats are competitive for. Plus, as I mentioned the school that takes 10 nontrads is only going to take 10 (or it loses diversity and makes it less attractive to the trads), and you have a worse chance of getting in with competitive stats if you are number 11, than you would as the only nontrad at a supposedly nontrad unfriendly school. I actually think the whole nontrad friendly concept is a farce. A few schools have more nontrads, but it's a self perpetuating thing because foolish threads on SDN and the like label these schools as nontrad friendly, and so more nontrads apply year after year. But in fact, there are no med schools that wouldn't look seriously at a nontrad with good stats.

 

[MBHockey]

I have a B.S. in mechanical engineering and left my job as an examiner at the USPTO (I guess we're on the same team now, eh? 😉) to pursue med school (currently in a post-bac program).

First off, I have absolutely no doubt that you can excel in your science classes. Graduating #1 in your Mech. E class is no small feat. You will find your pre-med courses much, much easier and less demanding. O-Chem takes a lot of time only because there's a fair amount of tedious memorization. The process of applying concepts in O-Chem will seem very familiar to you from engineering...it's just that memorization part that will be new. You will also find that pre-med students absolutely LOVE memorizing things and are constantly looking for hard and fast rules so they can put their brain on cruise control for the rest of the lecture (and that doesn't work too well for o-chem, something my professor takes great pride in reminding them).

You will be pleased with how well your other classes go. I have found that in pre-med there is a much more linear relationship between time input to performance output. You will not be pleased, however, with how much money you are giving up from your patent attorney career.

Best of all though is that you won't have to deal with those grumpy, whimsical patent examiners anymore! 😀

Hi all,

Can any of you shed advice on how your prior non-med academic credentials helped (or didn't help) your admission to med school. In particualr, can anyone shed light on how engineering and law degrees (and the combination) would help (or not) one's admission to med school.

As background, here is my situation. I graduated first (of about 30) in my Mechanical Engineering undergrad class. I graduated sixth (of 240) in my law school class. My law school is a tier one instituion (say, top twenty).

Assuming that I can well in my science courses while I work full time as an attorney, does anyone have any thoughts about my general chances of acceptance at in-state med school that accepts roughly 20% of in-state applicant's?

Thanks for your time.

 

[PatentDoc]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts! I immensely appreciate them. MB: Very nicely played 🙂laugh🙂. Why did you decide to make the change?

(And for the record, I keep a very good rapport with the Examiners, as I conduct about five to eight Examiner interviews, monthly.)

 

[MBHockey]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts! I immensely appreciate them. MB: Very nicely played 🙂laugh🙂. Why did you decide to make the change?

(And for the record, I keep a very good rapport with the Examiners, as I conduct about five to eight Examiner interviews, monthly.)

I made the change because I didn't think what I was doing was important and I know that if I make it to 90 years old I would much rather be able to say I practiced medicine for 35 years than examined patents for largely useless household appliances for 35 years 🙂

And I was just playing to the stereotypical examiner/attorney relationship. I have had nothing but positive experiences with the few lawyers I dealt with on a regular basis (I was only there one year).

If you were there often for interviews it's possible we passed each other around the PTO campus...interesting!

Good luck

 

[bipolardoc]

I made the change because I didn't think what I was doing was important and I know that if I make it to 90 years old I would much rather be able to say I practiced medicine for 35 years than examined patents for largely useless household appliances for 35 years 🙂

And I was just playing to the stereotypical examiner/attorney relationship. I have had nothing but positive experiences with the few lawyers I dealt with on a regular basis (I was only there one year).

If you were there often for interviews it's possible we passed each other around the PTO campus...interesting!

Good luck

When I was at SGU, for the brief time I was there before my withdrawl due to my condition, there was a guy in my class who was 52, yes 52, he was a mechanical eng. for 12 years, then a patent lawyer in san fran, then decided to go to med school, he was one of those annoying old people that would follow you around and pest you in anatomy to teach him stuff because he really was a slow science learner. I dont know what happened to him, but I know he was wealthy enough from his previous careers to fly his own small plane to the caribbean, yes i said his own plane, and pay cash for his tuition, lol... I got to admit I used to feel sorry for him because some students just resented him for no reason, they thought he should just retire instead of spending his retirement trying to be an MD as an EC activity as they saw it. But all his own, I had no opinion of him, but he did do annoying crap, like the only person to bring his laptop to class and sit there and click freakin typing all his notes while everyone else is just writing, you wanted to break that laptop of his sometimes, lol...

 

[Law2Doc]

... like the only person to bring his laptop to class and sit there and click freakin typing all his notes while everyone else is just writing, you wanted to break that laptop of his sometimes, lol...

Just so you know, in some US med schools, 100% of the class will be typing on laptops during lecture. Heck, some med schools even make you buy one. This is part of the current educational landscape. That he was ahead of the rest of the class, technology-wise, compared to your school isn't exactly the best reason to find him annoying.

 

[DrJosephKim]

I studied mechanical engineering at MIT. I personally found that it really depends on your MCAT score and grades.

Also depends on the school, since many schools are looking for students to enter primary care. If you have "specialty" written on your forehead, then you may have a harder time at some of these schools.

 

[PatentDoc]

Thanks, Jkim! The good news, I suppose, is that I am thinking about internal medicine. I assume, from your statement, that this could be a slight plus.

 

[TXWrigley]

Hey all,

I'm another patent lawyer/engineer. I've been practicing patent/IP law for about 4 years now. I just finished taking the medschool prereqs I never picked up in undergrad (such as O-chem and a few bio classes) in June. I took them through a night school continuing education program.

If anyone has any questions about switching careers, from taking prereq classes, to the MCAT, up to the point of interviewing at schools (I'm still in the process), I'm more than happy to share my experience and try to help! Good luck!

 

[bipolardoc]

Just so you know, in some US med schools, 100% of the class will be typing on laptops during lecture. Heck, some med schools even make you buy one. This is part of the current educational landscape. That he was ahead of the rest of the class, technology-wise, compared to your school isn't exactly the best reason to find him annoying.

I didnt find him annoying but others did. Everything was available online and handouts was given out for everything back when I was in school, no laptop was needed in class period. He was the only one out of 300 students to be typing in a class where you can hear a needle in a hay stack otherwise.

 

[Law2Doc]

I didnt find him annoying but others did. Everything was available online and handouts was given out for everything back when I was in school, no laptop was needed in class period. He was the only one out of 300 students to be typing in a class where you can hear a needle in a hay stack otherwise.

Again, in US schools you get everything available online and get handouts on everything and they still make you buy a laptop and encourage you to use it in class. You (and the other 298 classmates) are just behind the times on this, sorry. You are supposed to take notes because most folks learn better taking notes rather than just passively listening.

 

[PatentDoc]

HI TX! Thanks for your offer, and congratulations on your journey through the process thus far. I would love to chat with you. I'll shoot a private message in the near future.

Thanks again, good luck on your journey!

 

[bipolardoc]

Again, in US schools you get everything available online and get handouts on everything and they still make you buy a laptop and encourage you to use it in class. You (and the other 298 classmates) are just behind the times on this, sorry. You are supposed to take notes because most folks learn better taking notes rather than just passively listening.

Would you stop arguing about trivial stuff and getting off TOPIC. I SAID I HAD NO PROBLEM WITH THE DUDE, I was giving out a situation that happened. So cut it out would you and stick to the topic instead of trying to trigger an arguement.

 

[Law2Doc]

Would you stop arguing about trivial stuff and getting off TOPIC. I SAID I HAD NO PROBLEM WITH THE DUDE, I was giving out a situation that happened. So cut it out would you and stick to the topic instead of trying to trigger an arguement.

Actually, in your initial post you said "he was one of those annoying old people", and that "he did do annoying crap". Neither of these points were salient to the current topic, and you surely could have made your point without it -- So in fact, you did have a problem with the dude. When you make comments like calling someone an annoying old person on a nontrad board, it is you who are trying to trigger an argument.

 

[ChairmanMao]

Would you stop arguing about trivial stuff and getting off TOPIC. I SAID I HAD NO PROBLEM WITH THE DUDE, I was giving out a situation that happened. So cut it out would you and stick to the topic instead of trying to trigger an arguement.

Just ignore him. I've started to notice that L2D has become more and more passive aggressive in his posts. He never ever seems to agrees with anyone on any topic. I don't know why he always has to make it a point to disagree with everyone else, but I think that's just his character (He is after all, a lawyer - not that there's anything wrong with that).

 

[bipolardoc]

Just ignore him. I've started to notice that L2D has become more and more passive aggressive in his posts. He never ever seems to agrees with anyone on any topic. I don't know why he always has to make it a point to disagree with everyone else, but I think that's just his character (He is after all, a lawyer - not that there's anything wrong with that).

Thats what I was thinking too, the lawyer side comes out too much. Its that or maybe he has the diagnosis of my username, lol...

 

[futureboy]

Thats what I was thinking too, the lawyer side comes out too much. Its that or maybe he has the diagnosis of my username, lol...

All Law2doc was saying was that most students now use laptops in class. Maybe he could have chosen his words differently when he said you and your classmates were behind the times; the "old dude" was probably just ahead of his time. Yes, Law2doc tends to play devil's advocate, but he gives solid advice.

 

[bipolardoc]

All Law2doc was saying was that most students now use laptops in class. Maybe he could have chosen his words differently when he said you and your classmates were behind the times; the "old dude" was probably just ahead of his time. Yes, Law2doc tends to play devil's advocate, but he gives solid advice.

And what advice did his responses bring to my thread/posts NONE! And how is arguing and throwing off the thread to talk about a 52 year old using a laptop useful, IT'S NOT.