Surgical intern answering questions tonight (part II)

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mimelim

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Did one of these a month ago, people seemed to like it, so I'll do another since I have th rest of the day off as well as Sunday off. Here is the last thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=936130

I am an Integrated Vascular Surgery intern. I just finished the first 2 months of residency. Willing to answer any questions you can think of :).

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Did one of these a month ago, people seemed to like it, so I'll do another since I have th rest of the day off as well as Sunday off. Here is the last thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=936130

I am an Integrated Vascular Surgery intern. I just finished the first 2 months of residency. Willing to answer any questions you can think of :).


What's the bloodiest case you have ever had? (blood dripping off the table, puddles of blood, etc)
 
Did one of these a month ago, people seemed to like it, so I'll do another since I have th rest of the day off as well as Sunday off. Here is the last thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=936130

I am an Integrated Vascular Surgery intern. I just finished the first 2 months of residency. Willing to answer any questions you can think of :).

Is surgical residency as grueling, rigorous, and stressful as it is reputed to be? This question comes from a premed w/o the experience of say, an M-III.
 
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How many hours of sleep do you get per day? I'm interested in surgical specialties, but I can't seem to function properly with <6 hrs of sleep. I don't if I will survive residency if I ever get to that point :(
 
What's the bloodiest case you have ever had? (blood dripping off the table, puddles of blood, etc)

Ruptured right iliac artery. 72yo male who presented to us with right lower extremity dry gangrene and several peripheral artery disease. We took him to the cathlab, went into the left and right groins with wires. We then stented his right and left iliacs with the hopes of improving outflow to his legs. Essentially finished the case and shot a completion angio... a huge extravesation was seen at the end of the right iliac stent. We threw another stent, continued to bleed. Then another, then another. After deploying 4 stents with the patient actively bleeding out of their right iliac the attending turned around and yelled, call the OR, tell them we are coming down. Started jamming blood into the patient in the cathlab and got him to the OR. Did an ex-lap and half of the patient's original blood volume spilled onto the table/floor. We kept up with his blood losses early, and the patient survived. Had a rocky ICU course, by the end of the night ~7 hours later, we had replaced his blood volume and then some, probably ended up getting ~25 units of blood total by the end of his hospital stay. The patient left the hospital out the front door on Thursday last week :).

Is surgical residency as grueling, rigorous, and stressful as it is reputed to be? This question comes from a premed w/o the experience of say, an M-III.

Yes, but the human body is more resilient than people think. The volume of information is astounding. I can't remember who said it, but it is like trying to drink from a fire hydrant. I work 80 hours a week, but am still expected to be reading for cases on my own time, preparing presentations and studying. You very quickly learn what you can live without and what you can't. If that latter category requires more than 40 hours a week, family, social life, sports, TV, whatever, you are going to be miserable.

How many hours of sleep do you get per day? I'm interested in surgical specialties, but I can't seem to function properly with <6 hrs of sleep. I don't if I will survive residency if I ever get to that point :(

I sleep 5.5 to 6 hours a night, but I have always slept that much and would be sleeping that much even if I wasn't a resident. I would say that it is hard to guarantee more than 7 hours of sleep, but for the most part, except when on call (most places, every other weekend or once a month), it isn't hard to get that 7 hours if you need it. My typical schedule is as follows:

4:00 Wake-up, brush teeth, eat a yogurt, play with the cats for 2-3 minutes
4:15 Start running to hospital (~2 miles)
4:30 Shower
4:45 Meet with night float team to find out who they admitted overnight or what issues there were
5:00 Chart check all the patients on service (25-40 patients), update the list, identify issues that need to be dealt with and prepare for rounds
6:00 Round with the fellow
7:00 Run through the team list with the nurse practitioner
7:30 - 5:00 Cover the floors, morning is mostly discharges and dealing with overnight things, afternoon is mostly consults and ER patients. If things are slow and the NP has everything under control, I'll slip into the OR. We typically have 5-6 ORs running, so it is always easy to find someone who can use extra hands.
5:00 sign out the service pager to the night team
7:00 leave the hospital (between 5 and 7 finish seeing consults, taking care of post op patients etc)
7-10 - me time, I rock climb twice a week, but for the most part those hours are reading for cases the next day, research, preparing presentations etc.

You have the hours to sleep. I burn ~30 minutes every day running to the hospital and needing to shower at the hospital. I choose to climb a couple times a week. I also make sure that I read at least a little bit every day. The question is what your priorities are outside of the hospital.
 
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List your credentials prior to match day, pretty please. You may estimate if you like. I am very curious about those who match surgery.
 
List your credentials prior to match day, pretty please. You may estimate if you like. I am very curious about those who match surgery.

Post-undergrad:
Passed pre-clinical classes, had 2 honors.
Honored all clinical clerkships
Step 1: 250s
Step 2: 240s
Named investigator on a below knee stent trial (research)
Suture workshop instructor for 3 years
Created a digital case database for step 1 studying, ended up with ~30 authors, handful of editors, wrote the code, organized the project etc.
Syllabus editor (each pre-clinical course had a textbook that they called a syllabus)
Curriculum committee

I think those are the high points...
 
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Post-undergrad:
Passed pre-clinical classes, had 2 honors.
Honored all clinical clerkships
Step 1: 250s
Step 2: 240s
Named investigator on a below knee stent trial (research)
Suture workshop instructor for 3 years
Created a digital case database for step 1 studying, ended up with ~30 authors, handful of editors, wrote the code, organized the project etc.
Syllabus editor (each pre-clinical course had a textbook that they called a syllabus)
Curriculum committee

I think those are the high points...

Very nice! Thanks. :laugh:
 
List your credentials prior to match day, pretty please. You may estimate if you like. I am very curious about those who match surgery.

Matching surgery (as in general surgery) and integrated vascular surgery are completely different playing fields. Impressive credentials OP :thumbup:

When you say first 2 months of residency are you talking about intern year or PGY2? Sounds like you have a good amount of time to yourself which is very encouraging.

Did you only apply to vascular or did you also apply to general just in case?
Does your school have an integrated vascular program?
Do you think having vascular related research helped your application?
When did you decide on doing vascular?
What made you decide not to go to general surgery first?
Is the turf war between vascular/interventional cards/interventional rads as bad as people make it seem?

Sorry for a lot of questions, feel free to only answer a few haha. Ive read up a bit on vascular and it seems very cool :thumbup:
 
You wake up at 4 in the morning and run 2 miles in fifteen minutes daily? That's the most amazing thing I've ever read*.

*besides the article I read about the psychoanalysis of anal sex, nothing could be more amazing than that.
 
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You wake up at 4 in the morning and run 2 miles in fifteen minutes daily? That's the most amazing thing I've ever read*.

*besides the article I read about the psychoanalysis of anal sex, nothing could be more amazing than that.

Do share.
 
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What is the social life like with the other interns?
 
Matching surgery (as in general surgery) and integrated vascular surgery are completely different playing fields. Impressive credentials OP :thumbup:

When you say first 2 months of residency are you talking about intern year or PGY2? Sounds like you have a good amount of time to yourself which is very encouraging.

Did you only apply to vascular or did you also apply to general just in case?
Does your school have an integrated vascular program?
Do you think having vascular related research helped your application?
When did you decide on doing vascular?
What made you decide not to go to general surgery first?
Is the turf war between vascular/interventional cards/interventional rads as bad as people make it seem?

Sorry for a lot of questions, feel free to only answer a few haha. Ive read up a bit on vascular and it seems very cool :thumbup:

I am an Integrated Vascular Surgery intern, so yes we have an integrated program ;). The intern rules require me to be out of the hospital at 7pm. It is stupid. I 'must' have 10 hours off between shifts. Since I need to be in by 5am to get sign out from the night team, I must swipe out before 7pm or the program gets dinged.

I applied to VS and GS. My rank list was intercalated, my first two choices were vascular, but my top 10 had 3 GS programs. I could have easily ended up at a GS program. I ranked programs based on fit and what I perceived to be strong training models with solid faculty. I decided to do vascular during my 3rd year surgery clerkship (~January of my 3rd year) during my VA rotation. If I hadn't done vascular, most likely I would have done GS with a hope of doing trauma critical care. My medical school did not have an integrated vascular program, but our newest attending was a 4+2 fellow from Northwestern, so integrated programs were on my radar very early.

Regarding research, vascular surgery is a highly technology driven field. If you aren't learning about new devices and instruments monthly, you are falling behind by the end of the year. Being able to see how devices are developed, tested and the limitations of a particular device is invaluable because it gives you tools to evaluate other people's work. When asked on the interview trail about the future of vascular or my own future, that was an easy fall back.

IR, interventional cards vs VS is entirely institution dependent. My next rotation is on interventional cardiology. There is some friction, but being a part of a Heart and Vascular institute has its advantages. We are all one big team. Tons of egos, but at the end of the day it isn't like a lot of places where you are in direct competition all the time.

You wake up at 4 in the morning and run 2 miles in fifteen minutes daily? That's the most amazing thing I've ever read*.

*besides the article I read about the psychoanalysis of anal sex, nothing could be more amazing than that.

Not sure why that is amazing. A 7.5min/mile pace is hardly amazing. #1 it forces me to run every day, #2 it saves me $80/month in parking
 
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How do you manage to overcome fatigue during the course of a long surgery? What are some techniques that you use to accomplish this?
 
You wake up at 4 in the morning and run 2 miles in fifteen minutes daily? That's the most amazing thing I've ever read*.

*besides the article I read about the psychoanalysis of anal sex, nothing could be more amazing than that.

its impressive but not amazing I just got out of the navy after 6 yrs and it was pretty much required to run about 2 miles in 15min or you can't be in. Now to get up and do it everyday when you don't have to says a lot about the individual.
 
What is the social life like with the other interns?

We don't really socialize outside of the hospital much. Half of us are married and all of us are busy :p. You get a max of 3 hours of free time off a day to do everything that you want to do for yourself. I rock climb with a 4th year medical student, a NSGY attending, transplant coordinator, couple of industry reps/engineers depending on who is free when I'm free. That is the limitations of my social life.

Don't get me wrong, I get along great with my fellow interns in the hospital. It is a good group, no real problem people or problem personalities. But when in the hospital we are busy.
 
How do you manage to overcome fatigue during the course of a long surgery? What are some techniques that you use to accomplish this?

I haven't felt fatigue during a long surgery. First, I haven't been in many and certainly haven't been hit by the toughest schedule that I will in the next 6 years and 10 months. That having been said, time flies in the OR. When you are watching, things are slow, but when you are operating or first assisting, the hours just disappear. You just don't notice. It must be the adrenaline, that is all I can think of.

Oh, and compression stocking help...
 
Also, how do you manage your schedule during undergrad and as of current? I'm an undergrad and my time management skills could be improved. I'm just taking classes, no research, and shadowing a physician. However, I find it difficult to manage...
 
I haven't felt fatigue during a long surgery. First, I haven't been in many and certainly haven't been hit by the toughest schedule that I will in the next 6 years and 10 months. That having been said, time flies in the OR. When you are watching, things are slow, but when you are operating or first assisting, the hours just disappear. You just don't notice. It must be the adrenaline, that is all I can think of.

Oh, and compression stocking help...

The thing is that I'm interesting in becoming an orthopedic surgeon, but I have bad knees..
 
Do share.

'Men, anal sex & desire: who wants what?' by Dr. Jeffrey Guss

Not sure why that is amazing. A 7.5min/mile pace is hardly amazing. #1 it forces me to run every day, #2 it saves me $80/month in parking
Yeah 7.5 minutes a mile is pretty amazing when you do it twice every single day. And I'm assuming you don't live at the hospital so you have to walk home so it's possible that you do it 4 times a day which is even more amazing.

You're going to take this compliment whether you like it or not

its impressive but not amazing I just got out of the navy after 6 yrs and it was pretty much required to run about 2 miles in 15min or you can't be in. Now to get up and do it everyday when you don't have to says a lot about the individual.
That's the Navy though, you didn't have a choice. This guy willingly walks 2 miles a day at 4 in the morning which is amazing. I'd buy a scooter or a skateboard or something
 
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I haven't felt fatigue during a long surgery. First, I haven't been in many and certainly haven't been hit by the toughest schedule that I will in the next 6 years and 10 months. That having been said, time flies in the OR. When you are watching, things are slow, but when you are operating or first assisting, the hours just disappear. You just don't notice. It must be the adrenaline, that is all I can think of.

Oh, and compression stocking help...

This may seem silly but do the compression socks really help that much? I recently started working at a hospital (I just finished applying) and after some shifts my feet hurt so bad it's made me question if I could handle surgeries or a hospital lifestyle when you're always on your feet. Seems stupid but it's really made me think...
 
Also, how do you manage your schedule during undergrad and as of current? I'm an undergrad and my time management skills could be improved. I'm just taking classes, no research, and shadowing a physician. However, I find it difficult to manage...

I am a bad example. I live by the, "Don't let your schooling interfere with your education." I found myself limiting my studying time in undergrad because I found that it was pointless to spend the extra hours studying. I was more than okay to get a B+ and have 3 times free time if I pushed myself and got an A. I just could never justify spending the hours learning details that I felt were unimportant. This doesn't mean that I didn't spend time working on things for classes, I just didn't sit for hours in the library going nuts over getting a 97% instead of a 93%. I recognize that this isn't exactly conducive toward getting into medical school for most people. The key is that you actually have to be productive with your free time in other areas, and not just be goofing off. By productive, I mean actually producing something of value, not just filling the hours with extracurriculars.

Now, I live by a schedule. The only parts of my week that aren't scheduled are weekend afternoons when not on call. Inevitably, if I'm not climbing, I'm too tired to leave my condo and instead sit on the couch reading a journal while posting on SDN. The schedule keeps me going. I just make it a rule that I will run every day and do it (unless it is pouring). I make it a rule that I will present a case every week for either M&M or case conference, regardless of if I'm required to or not. I set high expectations for myself and try my hardest to meet them. When I fail (which happens from time to time), I try to figure out why I didn't make it and move on. I don't dwell much.
 
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The thing is that I'm interesting in becoming an orthopedic surgeon, but I have bad knees..

In training you don't have much choice about what procedures you do, but in practice you dictate what you want to do. If you don't enjoy doing or don't tolerate longer procedures well, then you simply don't have them as a part of your practice and pass them off to your partners or refer patients elsewhere. We have a couple of guys who do mostly dialysis access cases which take them all of 20-30 minutes to do by themselves and 45 minutes to an hour if they have to walk one of the residents through. There are others that do mostly aortic work and can be in the OR for anywhere from an hour to 8. I don't know the specifics of ortho cases, but I'm sure it is similar.

'Men, anal sex & desire: who wants what?' by Dr. Jeffrey Guss


Yeah 7.5 minutes a mile is pretty amazing when you do it twice every single day. And I'm assuming you don't live at the hospital so you have to walk home so it's possible that you do it 4 times a day which is even more amazing.

You're going to take this compliment whether you like it or not


That's the Navy though, you didn't have a choice. This guy willingly walks 2 miles a day at 4 in the morning which is amazing. I'd buy a scooter or a skateboard or something

Well thanks :p. Believe it or not, I got the idea from Dr. Oz. I went to high school (a long ass time ago) with one of his daughters and he came in to talk about going into medicine and talked about riding his bike every day across the GWB into NYC every day for residency. Back then, before all of his TV nonsense, he left a lasting positive impression.
 
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Oh God I hate Dr. Oz (well his show at least, I don't hate him as a person).

But let me get back on topic: why did you choose vascular surgery? It seems like an awesome field but the pressure must be crazy intense going into the ER. How do you deal with the pressure of knowing that the smallest mistake could mean the biggest consequences?

I've been wondering that for the longest now I finally get to ask it. I feel like a child at Hanukkah.
 
Oh God I hate Dr. Oz (well his show at least, I don't hate him as a person).

But let me get back on topic: why did you choose vascular surgery? It seems like an awesome field but the pressure must be crazy intense going into the ER. How do you deal with the pressure of knowing that the smallest mistake could mean the biggest consequences?

I've been wondering that for the longest now I finally get to ask it. I feel like a child at Hanukkah.

Quoting myself from another thread:

Vascular surgery? Its sexy. When the **** hits the fan, who do you call? Vascular. I like the thought of being the last resort in critical patients. Why really though... Mixture of open procedures and endovascular procedures, a ton of problem solving trying to find the best open, endo or hybrid procedure for a given patient. But mostly, I like the patients. A lot of surgeons hate seeing the same people over and over. The nature of Vascular Surgery is you will never cure your patients. They will keep eating poorly, smoking, not exercising etc. Thus, you will bypass someone, then you will angio them, then you will stent them, then you will angio, then angio again, stent again, then amputate a toe, then a foot, then their leg. You develop a relationship with them. A lot of surgeons hate this concept. They would rather 'fix' someone and never see them again. While it can be frustrating or even infuriating, I like getting to know my patients.

The ER can be a little scary because you don't really know what you are walking into. Often we will be called to the ER for a consult and I will see it by myself. Part of doing a consult is doing a good focused physical exam which can be patently dangerous in inexperienced hands. I had a patient who had "bleeding from her AV fistula" who's fistula ruptured when I took down the ER doc's dressing. When you see arterial spray for the first time...

It sounds callous, but you really have to separate your humanity from your technical 'job'. When doing surgery you really are assaulting the body. I have zero problem taking a 10 blade and slashing open an abdomen in a sterile field in the OR where the patient is covered, but I still feel slightly queasy suturing wounds closed with a patient watching me. It isn't because them watching makes me nervous. It is the realization that I am looking at the inside of a person and then stabbing them repeatedly with a needle. To answer your question, how do you deal with it: you either have to be a sociopath or simply find a way to block or ignore the doubt in the back of your mind. Of course, it is a fine line, on the flip side, you can't be reckless. You practice like crazy, you study your ass off in school and in training, review all the data that you can (films, labs history etc) and then trust that your training will allow you to make good decisions.
 
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I am an Integrated Vascular Surgery intern, so yes we have an integrated program ;). The intern rules require me to be out of the hospital at 7pm. It is stupid. I 'must' have 10 hours off between shifts. Since I need to be in by 5am to get sign out from the night team, I must swipe out before 7pm or the program gets dinged.

I applied to VS and GS. My rank list was intercalated, my first two choices were vascular, but my top 10 had 3 GS programs. I could have easily ended up at a GS program. I ranked programs based on fit and what I perceived to be strong training models with solid faculty. I decided to do vascular during my 3rd year surgery clerkship (~January of my 3rd year) during my VA rotation. If I hadn't done vascular, most likely I would have done GS with a hope of doing trauma critical care. My medical school did not have an integrated vascular program, but our newest attending was a 4+2 fellow from Northwestern, so integrated programs were on my radar very early.

Regarding research, vascular surgery is a highly technology driven field. If you aren't learning about new devices and instruments monthly, you are falling behind by the end of the year. Being able to see how devices are developed, tested and the limitations of a particular device is invaluable because it gives you tools to evaluate other people's work. When asked on the interview trail about the future of vascular or my own future, that was an easy fall back.

IR, interventional cards vs VS is entirely institution dependent. My next rotation is on interventional cardiology. There is some friction, but being a part of a Heart and Vascular institute has its advantages. We are all one big team. Tons of egos, but at the end of the day it isn't like a lot of places where you are in direct competition all the time.



Not sure why that is amazing. A 7.5min/mile pace is hardly amazing. #1 it forces me to run every day, #2 it saves me $80/month in parking

The amazing part is actually being able to wake up, run at ungodly hours of the night and being able to get to work instantly. 90%+ of people can't come close to doing that at all :eek:
 
I have zero problem taking a 10 blade and slashing open an abdomen in a sterile field in the OR where the patient is covered, but I still feel slightly queasy suturing wounds closed with a patient watching me. It isn't because them watching makes me nervous. It is the realization that I am looking at the inside of a person and then stabbing them repeatedly with a needle.
Thanks I suppose the difference you're explaining is that when the patient is in the OR and covered, you can simply focus on the task at hand. But when you are suturing wounds with the patient awake and watching you, you are dealing with that person two ways: the person and his/her body. Right?
 
When did you know you wanted to go into surgery? Because of your chosen field, did you lean towards things differently, like surgeons are especially good with your hands, vs pediatricians are comfortable with little kids vs ?
 
mimelim, for those with a prospective interest in surgery, what are some telling signs that surgery might be a good fit?
 
Thanks for doing this!

During your first 2 years of med school, did you regularly shadow to try to figure out what you wanted to do? If so, how helpful/useful was that? (this may be answered when you address the above 2 questions)
 
You're answers and descriptions are enlightening, but you're attitude seems indicative of every surgeon I've known and heard about. Is it true what they say about most surgeons? I've heard many jokes, like there are doctors and then there are surgeons, in addition to descriptions of surgeons being "hard-nosed," set in their ways and callous (not in a "I hate patients" kind of way, but a "Let's get this done and forget about it" kind of way).

That said, I am currently interested in surgery as a potential career path and enjoy the prospect of it. I feel it combines the best of both diagnostic and physical fix worlds and I am the kind of no nonsense, highly motivated logical person to live by a set surgical procedures. What would you say the personality of a surgeon is?
 
Thanks I suppose the difference you're explaining is that when the patient is in the OR and covered, you can simply focus on the task at hand. But when you are suturing wounds with the patient awake and watching you, you are dealing with that person two ways: the person and his/her body. Right?

Yes. Unless you are a psychopath, it should feel very un-natural to make another person bleed. Even if logically you know that you are trying to help them. In the OR it is easy to forget that the yellow tinted field in front of you is actually a person who was talking to you an hour ago. It gets better with time and I'm sure most practiced surgeons don't even think twice about it anymore.

When did you know you wanted to go into surgery? Because of your chosen field, did you lean towards things differently, like surgeons are especially good with your hands, vs pediatricians are comfortable with little kids vs ?

mimelim, for those with a prospective interest in surgery, what are some telling signs that surgery might be a good fit?

Thanks for doing this!

During your first 2 years of med school, did you regularly shadow to try to figure out what you wanted to do? If so, how helpful/useful was that? (this may be answered when you address the above 2 questions)

You have to love the OR. Being good with your hands is important, but certainly not mandatory. You can't be a klutz, but you will learn the technical skills as you go. The lifestyle sucks, even compared to other doctors. The ability to go to the OR and perform surgeries is the reward for putting up with all that other stuff. It has to be worth it :p. I knew that I wanted to go into a surgical field the Summer after my MS1 year. I shadowed the Trauma and Critical Care docs at Northwestern for a couple of weeks. Realized very quickly that I was attracted to the OR, the no-nonsense pace and the people that I would be working with. I saw a lot of myself in the residents and attending surgeons. It was easier to identify with them than it was to identify with the medical students on service who weren't going into surgery. Shadowing is important prior to medical school, but I think stopping after you get in is silly.

It is a huge decision to apply to medical school, requires a lot of time and money. But after you get in, you realize that being an MD can mean so many different things. And really the only way of picking a specialty to shoot for is to get out into the real world. You can make educated guesses based on your personality, your interests etc. (eg. you don't mind working with kids and their parents) but until you watch a pediatrician deal with the hurdles they have to, or a surgeon running from clinic to the OR to the floor to the clinic and then back to the OR, you really can't understand what you are getting yourself into. It is NOT about the number of hours that you spend shadowing, it is all about the experience. If you don't feel like you are getting much out of shadowing a particular physician, move on to someone else.

You're answers and descriptions are enlightening, but you're attitude seems indicative of every surgeon I've known and heard about. Is it true what they say about most surgeons? I've heard many jokes, like there are doctors and then there are surgeons, in addition to descriptions of surgeons being "hard-nosed," set in their ways and callous (not in a "I hate patients" kind of way, but a "Let's get this done and forget about it" kind of way).

That said, I am currently interested in surgery as a potential career path and enjoy the prospect of it. I feel it combines the best of both diagnostic and physical fix worlds and I am the kind of no nonsense, highly motivated logical person to live by a set surgical procedures. What would you say the personality of a surgeon is?

I hate stereotypes, but often (not always) they are based on reality. In this case, I would say that the stereotype of surgeons is fairly accurate. I have yet to meet a surgeon that was not always in a hurry. Not necessarily while they were doing something, but in between the OR or clinic, they rarely will be available to simply chat. And yes, I am biased, I HATE mental masturbation, which is what I see most of internal medicine to be. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad there are people that are willing to round for 8 hours a day and stress over the small details of medical management. But, in my opinion, the other factors at play are so much larger than those details that they stress about and I can't fathom spending my time thinking or dealing with them. Patient's react very differently to different medications, different patients have different compliance levels etc. It is exactly like undergrad. I am perfectly happy with a 93% effectiveness because I think the marginal utility of that additional 4% is miniscule. Of course I'd rather be at 97% and work my ass off to be efficient while being precise and accurate when dealing with floor things. However, I don't have the personality that will allow me to spend all day thinking about it.
 
Do you find time to date? Family is pretty important to me, so if you were/are dating or married. Is it possible to have enough time to be at least moderately available to them? Or would that be better after internship/residency
 
Do you find time to date? Family is pretty important to me, so if you were/are dating or married. Is it possible to have enough time to be at least moderately available to them? Or would that be better after internship/residency

I am married. I would say half of my surgical resident colleagues are either married or in serious relationships. My wife and I have similar interests, so when I get out of the hospital we tend to do things that I enjoy, but we spend a reasonable amount of time together. It isn't that much to be honest. If either of you need a significant amount of attention from your significant other, things will be difficult. All of that having been said, waiting is generally not a good option. Attendings tend to be as busy or busier than residents, at least in the surgical world.
 
I am married. I would say half of my surgical resident colleagues are either married or in serious relationships. My wife and I have similar interests, so when I get out of the hospital we tend to do things that I enjoy, but we spend a reasonable amount of time together. It isn't that much to be honest. If either of you need a significant amount of attention from your significant other, things will be difficult. All of that having been said, waiting is generally not a good option. Attendings tend to be as busy or busier than residents, at least in the surgical world.


what are your thoughts about some of the other surgical subspecialities? like ENT, uro, ortho, nsgy. did you consider any of those before applying to vascular?thanks.
 
what are your thoughts about some of the other surgical subspecialities? like ENT, uro, ortho, nsgy. did you consider any of those before applying to vascular?thanks.

I considered all of the mentioned subspecialties. However, none of them struck my fancy the way GS/VS did. It is hard to pin down exactly why I didn't like them as much, but you can see my reasons for VS in previous posts.
 
You discussed the requirement in VS (or, perhaps, surgery in general) to be up-to-date with technology in your field. The questions I have are:

What are your thoughts with robot assisted surgeries?
Have you done any work with this tool, as of yet?
Do you see a future for yourself with robot assisted surgery, as it becomes more popular in VS?

Obviously, since it is not widely used, I imagine there are some very specific operations in which it can be used, so just a curiosity.

By the way, I thought it was funny that you, too, run at ~4:00 AM. As a person who needs to have that to start my day, I, for one, get it completely. Without a morning run, the day would not progress as smoothly, keep it up! Also, thanks for the current and future replies!
 
Thanks for telling us about your experience!

Vascular surgery is interesting, but alas, I'm not even in medical school yet... so it's pretty futile for me to make any comparison.

So you're saying that shadowing and research are necessary in medical school to obtain a residency in surgery? Sounds like pre-med requirements all over again... with no curve and greater difficulty... :scared:
 
We don't really socialize outside of the hospital much. Half of us are married and all of us are busy :p. You get a max of 3 hours of free time off a day to do everything that you want to do for yourself. I rock climb with a 4th year medical student, a NSGY attending, transplant coordinator, couple of industry reps/engineers depending on who is free when I'm free. That is the limitations of my social life.

Don't get me wrong, I get along great with my fellow interns in the hospital. It is a good group, no real problem people or problem personalities. But when in the hospital we are busy.
Yeah, I have a family, and I don't really socialize with my fellow residents much. We get along well, and we occasionally all go out or have parties, but I have enough family social obligations as it is. Some of the single residents hang out a lot more (and it was the same at my med school with the surgery residents).
 
Thanks for your response. It will be good for me to keep all of this in mind as I progress through school.
 
Created a digital case database for step 1 studying, ended up with ~30 authors, handful of editors, wrote the code, organized the project etc.
VS and CVS is so interesting I got to do suction and hold clamps once for a CABG !! It was so awesome !

Sounds pretty cool do you have a technical background? I see rocket scientist logo beside your member name :). Also, as an undergrad I worked in robotic surgery research. Do you think that would count as a plus later on when applying to med schools/residencies? (I have a very technical background)
 
You discussed the requirement in VS (or, perhaps, surgery in general) to be up-to-date with technology in your field. The questions I have are:

What are your thoughts with robot assisted surgeries?
Have you done any work with this tool, as of yet?
Do you see a future for yourself with robot assisted surgery, as it becomes more popular in VS?

Obviously, since it is not widely used, I imagine there are some very specific operations in which it can be used, so just a curiosity.

By the way, I thought it was funny that you, too, run at ~4:00 AM. As a person who needs to have that to start my day, I, for one, get it completely. Without a morning run, the day would not progress as smoothly, keep it up! Also, thanks for the current and future replies!

VS and CVS is so interesting I got to do suction and hold clamps once for a CABG !! It was so awesome !

Sounds pretty cool do you have a technical background? I see rocket scientist logo beside your member name :). Also, as an undergrad I worked in robotic surgery research. Do you think that would count as a plus later on when applying to med schools/residencies? (I have a very technical background)


Keep up or stop operating (or move out to the boonies). That is how the field works. My program teaches residents, fellows AND attending surgeons. They run couple day long courses to update practicing surgeons on how to use the newer endovascular tools as well as the new 'tricks of the trade'. If you aren't comfortable with both open an endovascular procedure, you aren't able to offer the best treatments for your patients and either need to refer them, or give them the 2nd best option.

Robotics is the wave of the future, but it is a slow wave. The program that I am at is one of the few centers that use the Hansen robot at least semi-regularly. I've also heard rumors of trying to put together a Da Vinci based AAA repair platform. Where I went to undergrad, there was a push for magnetically driven catheters. It is new, exciting and unfortunately ungodly expensive and difficulty to justify until you have the breakthrough. Having a technical background is not mandatory, but is insanely helpful. We rely heavily on industry to keep us informed about their advances, having a background that allows you to ask them the tough questions and really get at the meat and potatoes of what a device can do for you is a valuable asset. I think being in an integrated program, I will have an advantage over many practicing vascular surgeons in this realm. I will have 5 years to build my knowledge base on these new systems.


Thanks for telling us about your experience!

Vascular surgery is interesting, but alas, I'm not even in medical school yet... so it's pretty futile for me to make any comparison.

So you're saying that shadowing and research are necessary in medical school to obtain a residency in surgery? Sounds like pre-med requirements all over again... with no curve and greater difficulty... :scared:

I don't think they are necessary in medical school to get into residency. I think they are very helpful for fleshing out what you want to do with your life. I would never tell someone to do research just to fill in their application. The programs that like to see research on an application are the ones that expect you to do research during residency, so you shouldn't be applying to them in the first place if you don't like research! Medical school is easier than pre-med in the sense that your classroom grades are largely irrelevant. Nobody was denied a competitive residency spot simply because they didn't honor biochem or micro. What is harder are #1 the hours and #2 transitioning from student to professional. 90% of the public can not visually see the difference between an attending and an MS3. When you function as a part of a hospital team, to be good, you have to have more than knowledge, you have to be productive, you have to solve problems that you weren't specifically trained to solve. It is hard to prepare for that.
 
-How do you anticipate your schedule changing when you move into PGY2?
-How do attending schedules compare to yours? I know you said attendings are just as busy as residents but it seems that residents usually come in to the hospital earlier to pre-round on the patients.
-Did you apply for residency before taking Step 2? Ive heard that more and more programs nowadays like to see Step 2 before applying, is this true?
-I know its early, but do you see yourself doing a fellowship after residency?
-How much trauma/crit care is there in vascular surgery? I know you get called in for aortic aneurysms, is there anything else that requires immediate middle of the night attention?
-How important was vascular specific research to the residency directors? Ive heard people say that it is very important to do research in the field you are applying for. However I have heard other physicians say that showing a dedication to research, and having results such as pubs and presentations, is more important than which field the research is in.

Once again thank you!
 
How do you anticipate your schedule changing when you move into PGY2? I will no longer come in at 5am to organize the service. If I come in that early, it will be for a specific reason, either a case, or need for patient management rather than just to keep the service running.

-How do attending schedules compare to yours? I know you said attendings are just as busy as residents but it seems that residents usually come in to the hospital earlier to pre-round on the patients. The difference between attendings and residents is that they set their own schedules and decide how much they want to work. This varies widely. However, just guessing about the 6 primary attendings at my program, I don't think a single one of them works less than 80 hours a week and at least two routinely work 100 hour weeks. Obviously they do not represent the majority of attendings, but it is not atypical in surgery for your attending to be rounding at 10pm simply because that is when they got out of the OR.

-Did you apply for residency before taking Step 2? Ive heard that more and more programs nowadays like to see Step 2 before applying, is this true? I don't think the integrated programs cared about Step 2. I know someone who had a good step 1 and matched with a <210. That may change, but I've heard it both ways. My medical school required us to take CK before January of our 4th year and CS before we graduated. Some places are reversed. I really don't have a good answer.

-I know its early, but do you see yourself doing a fellowship after residency? My guess is that I will take 2 years off for research after my PGY2 year and then practice after I graduate (my PGY7 year). The biggest identified deficiency of integrated vascular programs is the lack of open exposure and it is expected that people who want big aorta cases to be a part of their practice will do a super fellowship after their residency.

-How much trauma/crit care is there in vascular surgery? I know you get called in for aortic aneurysms, is there anything else that requires immediate middle of the night attention? Tons. At a true level 1 center, vascular surgeons routinely help with all sorts of penetrating trauma cases, especially dealing with large venous injuries since in general they are more difficult to manage. Vascular emergencies are all over and are not limited to trauma. AAA ruptures like you mentioned, ruptured fistulas, cold legs, etc are standard fair overnight.

-How important was vascular specific research to the residency directors? Ive heard people say that it is very important to do research in the field you are applying for. However I have heard other physicians say that showing a dedication to research, and having results such as pubs and presentations, is more important than which field the research is in. Everyone is different. I think it is hard to justify not getting your hands a little dirty in the research world unless you discovered vascular surgery in your 4th year. Clinical research is much faster than basic science and getting added to ongoing projects is not difficult, even at the smaller schools. It is silly to do research in an area outside of what you are going into, unless it is in generic things that affects the area that you are going into. Obviously most people don't know what they are going into from day 1 and it is okay to have other research. Just realize that a decent number of PDs won't put much stock in it. It doesn't mean that you won't learn something useful for later and most likely will help you grow as a future physician, but the one liner on your CV won't impress everyone.

Once again thank you! No problem, my pleasure.
 
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What are your thoughts on anesthesiologists?

A good anesthesiologist is worth their salary 2 times over. I'm an intern and I know the names of every person above the sheet in our cases. They are a surgeon's partner in getting a patient through a case. They tend to really understand their patient's needs and a good one will anticipate the surgeon's needs which goes a really long way.

Take the rest with a grain of salt. While I recognize the importance of having good relationships with anesthesiology and ever present communication channels, the mold that most surgeons and anesthesiologists are cut from are different. While anesthesiologists are generally ready to handle rapid changes and manage those changes in real time, the majority of the time things run smoothly and the patient is never really in much danger from their normal fare. On the other hand, I have found most surgeons see (and for good reason) what they do as mission critical every step of the the way. Thus they tend to be on edge the entire case from open to close. Then again, this could be envy of their lunch breaks and shifts talking.
 
Can you give some examples of how they can anticipate the surgeon's needs and make your life easier?
 
Can you give some examples of how they can anticipate the surgeon's needs and make your life easier?

How: keep track of what is going on in a case while having a working knowledge of the basics of the procedure underway. Nobody wants to be nagged about the details of what they are doing, but when the **** hits the fan, an up to date anesthesiologist will react a hundred times faster. All it takes is timely questions about how things are going. While surgeons like to be captains of the ship, it is nice to have someone who can act independently and show initiative when things aren't going well. When there is chaos, a surgeon can focus on repairing major vessels or other organs if they know that the patient is being managed/resuscitated effectively without their direction.

Recently, I've noticed in small cases, that good anesthesiologists will toe the thin line separating ineffective blocks and incapacitating a patient for hours after their procedure. I've noticed the difference when doing my post op checks.
 
This has been my favorite thread for days now, Thank you SO much for doing this!

I do have a question, if you are still offering up answers.

I am a non-trad that is very interested in surgery. Nothing fancy, just General or Cardiovascular. The question is: is there any specific research opportunities that are in line with surgery that I should be looking into during my undergraduate years? I go to a pretty research heavy university (University of Florida...go Gators), so whatever you suggest, I can probably find.

Thanks!!
 
Can you give some examples of how they can anticipate the surgeon's needs and make your life easier?
Tell the surgeon when they're having problems! We recently did a vascular case in which the anesthesiologist started running into problems immediately. Nothing horrific, but certainly the kind of thing we needed to know about. We called in another vascular surgeon to do the distal anastomosis and canceled the endovascular portion. We did a bypass in record time, because we knew that this guy needed the shortest operation possible. If they had been monkeying around behind the drapes without telling us what was going on, we might have launched into a much more tedious operation that could have easily been 2-3 times as long.
 
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