Go Into Medicine For Money!

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Dbate

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In another thread today, a poster commented that medicine is still the best path to pursue financially. I argued that medicine was a poor financial decision relative to other paths.


To prove my point, I decided to do a quantitative assessment of the the lifetime income of three career paths: Law, Business, and Medicine. To determine which would be the most financially profitable to actually pursue.


From the data, I was completely wrong.
For the vast majority of students, medicine is the most profitable route to pursue in life. Only students who can attend the top Law or Business schools will out earn physicians.

Data here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ave6DVycqDmKdEUxQ2ZVUmQyZS1zb1U1YWdHV1NJWlE&output=html
Here is the salary and loan interest information: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pUGW-PFf6apBzClCmIQjB_9kjhBeEKSRscY2foZr-rI/pub

I included three different categories of students based on the assumption that not everyone has the same opportunities. They mostly just entail different salary expectations based on opportunity.


Salaries Based on: MGMA survey for Neurology, Law Firm First year associate pay, and starting salaries posted by the MBA programs.


Category A:
1. Student from top undergrad with lucrative starting salary
2. Student capable of matriculating into top medical, law, and/or business schools.

Paths are
Business: Ivy/Top Undergrad-->McKinsey, Goldman-->Harvard, Wharton, Stanford MBA-->IBanking, Management Consulting, Top Executive

Law: Ivy/Top Undergrad-->HYS Law-->Law Clerk--->Top Big Law Firm (think Watchell, Vinson&Elkins and the like)

Medicine: Ivy/Top Undergrad-->Medical School-->5 year Residency-->Sub-specialty Pay (note: Pay differential isn't affected by med school attended)


Category B:


1. Student from decent school with okay starting salary
2. Student academically qualified for good, but not top graduate programs


Paths are
Business: Decent Undergrad (e.g. UC-Berkeley caliber)-->Mid-Range Firms (low tier consulting Navigant, Accenture)-->Cornell, UCLA caliber MBA-->Mid Range management position

Law: Decent Undergrad-->UCLA, Vanderbilt Law-->Mid Tier Law Firm

Medicine: Decent Undergrad-->Medical School-->5 year Residency-->Sub-specialty Pay (note: Pay differential isn't affected by med school attended)


Category C:


1. Student from low/unranked school with low starting salary
2. Student academically qualified for lower range graduate programs


Paths are
Business: Low/Unranked Undergrad (e.g. University of Houston)-->Low Level Administrative Jobs (e.g. HR for a Fortune 500 company or smaller firm)-->UC-Davis caliber MBA-->Low Range management position

Law: Low/Unranked Undergrad-->Low Tier Law School (e.g. Hofstra Law School)-->Low Tier Firm/Doc Review/Unemployed

Medicine: Decent Undergrad-->Medical School-->5 year Residency-->Sub-specialty Pay (note: Pay differential isn't affected by med school attended)



Link to Data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ave6DVycqDmKdEUxQ2ZVUmQyZS1zb1U1YWdHV1NJWlE&output=html

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I had previously done an analysis of this type in high school to evaluate future earning potential of the three paths, so the above is a modified version of an excel document I already had.
 
Honestly, I don't care about who makes the most money. I come from a family of six that made less than $50k a year and had to have my older brother and I work to help the family out. I just want a profession that allows me to become highly skilled, helps others and be happy with my life.

Just curious, what dollar amount did you give to physicians and what about other professions?
 
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Honestly, I don't care about who makes the most money. I come from a family of six that made less than $50k a year and had to have my older brother and I work to help the family out.

Just curious, what dollar amount did you give to physicians and what about other professions?

I didn't realize that the Google Doc doesn't allow you to see the actual formulas in the cells.

I will type of all the values and how I took into account interest on loans in just a moment.
 
Can't spell debate without dbate.

Also, Dbate, most residencies are 3-4 years...a 5 year residency(Gen Surg for instance) is the exception.

Oops, I meant to write 4 years. When I began to do it, I anticipated using the salary of an ENT, but then I switched to Neurology for it to be more reasonable.

I will edit the opening post.
 
strong paying off your loans in 3 years.

strong never getting raises

strong everything my brain hurts
 
Honestly, I don't care about who makes the most money. I come from a family of six that made less than $50k a year and had to have my older brother and I work to help the family out. I just want a profession that allows me to become highly skilled, helps others and be happy with my life.

Just curious, what dollar amount did you give to physicians and what about other professions?

I think money should be a consideration for everyone to some extent.

Following your passion is worthwhile, but I figured this can help some people who are considering alternatives to medicine--at least a little bit.

At the very least, it offers some quantifiable data to the table in the debates on the financial incentive to become a physician.
 
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strong paying off your loans in 3 years.

strong never getting raises

strong everything my brain hurts

The point is to treat financial decision as a series of cash flows.

So although not all of your money will go toward paying off your loans, in the net scheme of things, the positive inflow of your overall salary should be considered a mitigating factor of your debt level. I just treated it as an antithesis to the negative cash outflow.

In any model, there are a number of assumptions which do not reflect reality. Nevertheless, I think this helps to offer some perspective on the debate.
 
You should do one with 10% interest since congress is debating on changing the interest rate to that.

Does anyone know how you can make Google Docs editable and downloadable?

I could just allow people to have access to it to download, then people could make alterations to the underlying formula and assumptions to better approximate the variables that they believe will change.
 
depends on the person, not the school. Average state school kids can break into top business jobs, they just have to hustle. So just go into whatever you like and medicine is a safe bet because of job security.
 
This also just goes to show that when writers in the popular press argue that declining reimbursement will push students away from medicine it is mostly false.

Assuming that the income of specialties declines from the 300-400K range down to the 180-220K range, medicine would still be the most financial profitable field to pursue.
 
depends on the person, not the school. Average state school kids can break into top business jobs, they just have to hustle. So just go into whatever you like and medicine is a safe bet because of job security.

For the most part, that is not true. Research has shown that for top positions in Business, law, and Banking, the school you attend is the largest determinant of your ability to obtain a position.

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/?sc_itemid={8C1A25AE-CE27-46C3-9203-3DE9D1F2BE8E}
 
depends on the person, not the school. Average state school kids can break into top business jobs, they just have to hustle. So just go into whatever you like and medicine is a safe bet because of job security.

Yeah good luck networking yourself into a 'top business job' if your third tier toilet classmates and alumni work at used car dealerships or whatever.
 
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For the most part, that is not true. Research has shown that for top positions in Business, law, and Banking, the school you attend is the largest determinant of your ability to obtain a position.

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/?sc_itemid={8C1A25AE-CE27-46C3-9203-3DE9D1F2BE8E}

"For the most part" and thats bc big companies dont recruit at crappy undergrads since recruiting at big names has always worked for them. But if someone is smart enough to make it to med skl from a low caliber UG, then they are probably capable enough to network their way into banking/consulting gig from that same school. Not as uncommon as one may think. But generally yeah, you're right because the average student at the average school is just that. But superstars do exist and they get looked at.
 
Yeah good luck networking yourself into a 'top business job' if your third tier toilet classmates and alumni work at used car dealerships or whatever.

A lot does depend on the person.

One of my fellow high school grads went to college and then did one of those painting summer jobs that they advertise on campus. He ended up making $20k over a summer and then decided to drop out of college after the next year. He opened up his own painting business and ended up making $100k in 3 months. He was able to do it because he was able to really sell things and manage people well. I think he is still doing it and making bank.

College dropout from a state school and making over $100k a year.
 
Yeah good luck networking yourself into a 'top business job' if your third tier toilet classmates and alumni work at used car dealerships or whatever.

If you want it bad enough. You'd be surprised at how many strangers are willing to chat about their careers. It's called LinkedIn.
 
A lot does depend on the person.

One of my fellow high school grads went to college and then did one of those painting summer jobs that they advertise on campus. He ended up making $20k over a summer and then decided to drop out of college after the next year. He opened up his own painting business and ended up making $100k in 3 months. He was able to do it because he was able to really sell things and manage people well. I think he is still doing it and making bank.

College dropout from a state school and making over $100k a year.

Entrepreneurship trumps everything!
 
"For the most part" and thats bc big companies dont recruit at crappy undergrads since recruiting at big names has always worked for them. But if someone is smart enough to make it to med skl from a low caliber UG, then they are probably capable enough to network their way into banking/consulting gig from that same school. Not as uncommon as one may think. But generally yeah, you're right because the average student at the average school is just that. But superstars do exist and they get looked at.

From experience, I do not think so. I am working for a consulting firm next year and when they sent out the list of names joining the firm, the lowest ranked school was Georgetown (and that person probably got in through connections).

In terms of mental capacity, it is far easier to get into med school than into alot of these firms. When the firms came to campus, there was an explicit screen of 3.5 gpa and extensive extracurriculars to get an interview for the lesser consulting firms.

For the top firms like McKinsey, Bain, BCG, you need at least a 3.7 gpa. I know because I got rejected pre-interview because my grades and ACT score (34) were too low. (yes, these companies ask you for your ACT and SAT score. They are that toolish).

I doubt the average pre-medical student could maintain a 3.7 gpa at a top school. Even the average premed at my school only has a 3.64 gpa and their average mcat (34) is much higher than most medical schools matriculatants' averages.
 
There's a reason why many firms recruit from top B/Law schools. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions. But Business/Law school rankings play a pretty big role, most of which is due to networking.

And I hate this argument of "if you could make it into med school, you would have made it to a good law/B school, or networked yourself into a good gig". The skill sets can be so varied. I will agree that some people have either the intrinsic intelligence or the work ethic (or both) to succeed in any field, but that is definitely not a cut and dry thing.
 
No.. Just... No. As someone who worked in IB, I have to say the OP has made far too many assumptions here.
 
From experience, I do not think so. I am working for a consulting firm next year and when they sent out the list of names joining the firm, the lowest ranked school was Georgetown (and that person probably got in through connections).

In terms of mental capacity, it is far easier to get into med school than into alot of these firms. When the firms came to campus, there was an explicit screen of 3.5 gpa and extensive extracurriculars to get an interview for the lesser consulting firms.

For the top firms like McKinsey, Bain, BCG, you need at least a 3.7 gpa. I know because I got rejected pre-interview because my grades and ACT score (34) were too low. (yes, these companies ask you for your ACT and SAT score. They are that toolish).

I doubt the average pre-medical student could maintain a 3.7 gpa at a top school. Even the average premed at my school only has a 3.64 gpa and their average mcat (34) is much higher than most medical schools matriculatants' averages.

Wow, haha. Hmm, may I ask why you chose consulting over banking? Sure, that makes sense, but I meant a job at any firm in that field. For instance, you obviously wont get to JP Morgan New York banking or M/B/B from podunk U, but you could break in through a boutique/MM in a smaller area, and then lateral or re-brand with an MBA and go for associate or whatever the consulting equivalent is at a top firm.
 
There's a reason why many firms recruit from top B/Law schools. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions. But Business/Law school rankings play a pretty big role, most of which is due to networking.

And I hate this argument of "if you could make it into med school, you would have made it to a good law/B school, or networked yourself into a good gig". The skill sets can be so varied. I will agree that some people have either the intrinsic intelligence or the work ethic (or both) to succeed in any field, but that is definitely not a cut and dry thing.

Right, it depends on their passion and interest. Take the same smarts of someone who can make it thru med skl admissions, but give them to someone passionate about getting into banking instead, and they will probably make it. It's hunger and drive that gets you there.
 
Wow, haha. Hmm, may I ask why you chose consulting over banking? Sure, that makes sense, but I meant a job at any firm in that field. For instance, you obviously wont get to JP Morgan New York banking or M/B/B from podunk U, but you could break in through a boutique/MM in a smaller area, and then lateral or re-brand with an MBA and go for associate or whatever the consulting equivalent is at a top firm.

I didn't pursue banking mostly because I couldn't work 80 hours a week. I had no desire to be at work at 2 am. There is a significant pay difference (120K versus 80K), but the extra time is worth it.

Also, my background was full of premed stuff, and banks like to see backgrounds prepared for banking (internships, courses, etc.).

I only got my job through luck. My university offered an internship program in Europe with a top pharma company. I took it just to go to Europe for the summer and I ended up getting a lot of business analysis type work. This made me well prepared for pharma consulting, which is what I am doing next year.


And you are definitely right about opportunities outside the top firms. There are hundreds of banks and smaller consulting firms, which are accessible to alot more schools.

A specific example is UVa. They have a strong alumni network and they get recruited by a lot of top firms. However, they are typically not recruited for the NYC offices, but for the offices in other large cities like Chicago, DC, etc.
 
No.. Just... No. As someone who worked in IB, I have to say the OP has made far too many assumptions here.

I would appreciate if you could let me know the wrong assumptions. That way, I can make it more reflective of reality.

I used management consulting salaries as the salary info because I am not as familiar with banking pay.
 
For med school + residency, you'll have to put up with being at work at 2am often, in addition to 80 hour work weeks. After that...well you can tailor your hours to your need...
 
In another thread today, a poster commented that medicine is still the best path to pursue financially. I argued that medicine was a poor financial decision relative to other paths.


To prove my point, I decided to do a quantitative assessment of the the lifetime income of three career paths: Law, Business, and Medicine. To determine which would be the most financially profitable to actually pursue.


From the data, I was completely wrong.
For the vast majority of students, medicine is the most profitable route to pursue in life. Only students who can attend the top Law or Business schools will out earn physicians.

Data here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ave6DVycqDmKdEUxQ2ZVUmQyZS1zb1U1YWdHV1NJWlE&output=html


I included three different categories of students based on the assumption that not everyone has the same opportunities. They mostly just entail different salary expectations based on opportunity.


Salaries Based on: MGMA survey for Neurology, Law Firm First year associate pay, and starting salaries posted by the MBA programs.


Category A:
1. Student from top undergrad with lucrative starting salary
2. Student capable of matriculating into top medical, law, and/or business schools.

Paths are
Business: Ivy/Top Undergrad-->McKinsey, Goldman-->Harvard, Wharton, Stanford MBA-->IBanking, Management Consulting, Top Executive

Law: Ivy/Top Undergrad-->HYS Law-->Law Clerk--->Top Big Law Firm (think Watchell, Vinson&Elkins and the like)

Medicine: Ivy/Top Undergrad-->Medical School-->5 year Residency-->Sub-specialty Pay (note: Pay differential isn't affected by med school attended)


Category B:


1. Student from decent school with okay starting salary
2. Student academically qualified for good, but not top graduate programs


Paths are
Business: Decent Undergrad (e.g. UC-Berkeley caliber)-->Mid-Range Firms (low tier consulting Navigant, Accenture)-->Cornell, UCLA caliber MBA-->Mid Range management position

Law: Decent Undergrad-->UCLA, Vanderbilt Law-->Mid Tier Law Firm

Medicine: Decent Undergrad-->Medical School-->5 year Residency-->Sub-specialty Pay (note: Pay differential isn't affected by med school attended)


Category C:


1. Student from low/unranked school with low starting salary
2. Student academically qualified for lower range graduate programs


Paths are
Business: Low/Unranked Undergrad (e.g. University of Houston)-->Low Level Administrative Jobs (e.g. HR for a Fortune 500 company or smaller firm)-->UC-Davis caliber MBA-->Low Range management position

Law: Low/Unranked Undergrad-->Low Tier Law School (e.g. Hofstra Law School)-->Low Tier Firm/Doc Review/Unemployed

Medicine: Decent Undergrad-->Medical School-->5 year Residency-->Sub-specialty Pay (note: Pay differential isn't affected by med school attended)



Link to Data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ave6DVycqDmKdEUxQ2ZVUmQyZS1zb1U1YWdHV1NJWlE&output=html

Only category A is comparing apples to apples. Eg the typical hoffstra law grad would never have gotten into med school so you aren't really comparing people who actually ever had the choice. These folks who could choose any of these careers are all, for the most part, category A folks, and you thus need to disregard the other two categorie in your analysis. Once you do that, your presumption is accurate. Medicine is a bad way to get rich.
 
Only category A is comparing apples to apples. Eg the typical hoffstra law grad would never have gotten into med school so you aren't really comparing people who actually ever had the choice. These folks who could choose any of these careers are all, for the most part, category A folks, and you thus need to disregard the other two categorie in your analysis. Once you do that, your presumption is accurate. Medicine is a bad way to get rich.

No one is talking about getting rich. We're comparing high-paying professions. If you think you can get rich by working for somebody else, then you've already lost.
 
A specific example is UVa. They have a strong alumni network and they get recruited by a lot of top firms. However, they are typically not recruited for the NYC offices, but for the offices in other large cities like Chicago, DC, etc.

Yeah, and that totally works for people wanting just banking because middle market banks and NY top firms pay about the same. The main reason people gun for Goldman/MS etc is because of more opportunities to get into elite hedge funds.

So...why medicine? In your case it sounds like you have good stuff lined up:thumbup:
 
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Only category A is comparing apples to apples. Eg the typical hoffstra law grad would never have gotten into med school so you aren't really comparing people who actually ever had the choice. These folks who could choose any of these careers are all, for the most part, category A folks, and you thus need to disregard the other two categorie in your analysis. Once you do that, your presumption is accurate. Medicine is a bad way to get rich.

I was gonna try the LSAT and was scoring like 140s on practice tests... so probably woulda been hofstra for me, but I got into med school ;)
 
Only category A is comparing apples to apples. Eg the typical hoffstra law grad would never have gotten into med school so you aren't really comparing people who actually ever had the choice. These folks who could choose any of these careers are all, for the most part, category A folks, and you thus need to disregard the other two categorie in your analysis. Once you do that, your presumption is accurate. Medicine is a bad way to get rich.

You are seriously deluded if you believe that getting into (any) med school would translate to being at the top of your field in anything else :laugh: You do know that the medical schools in the USA have an acceptance rate of 50%, right? That all the hoops to jump through speak mostly about your determination and only moderately about your smarts? Medical school isn't astronaut training, uh.
 
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I think it is completely reasonable to pursue medicine for, at least in some part, the money. Most people dream of making a stable six figure income. However, if you go into it ONLY for the money I suspect you will become quite frustrated as you work your way through the path to become an attending.

Survivor DO
 
You are seriously deluded if you believe that getting into (any) med school would translate to being at the top of your field in anything else :laugh: You do know that the medical schools in the USA have an acceptance rate of 50%, right? That all the hoops to jump through speak mostly about your determination and only moderately about your smarts? Medical school isn't astronaut training, uh.

Nah man it's completely reasonable to assume that a 3.6 GPA and a 30 MCAT means you'll get into a T10 law school or be one of the 10% who gets a biglaw job from a lesser school....and then be one of the 10% who survives big law associateship without being asked to leave.
 
Comparing the first 9-10 years of each path (At age 30):

How in the world are you calculating $420,660 in debt for private medical schools?
Even $248,000 in debt through a public school seems a bit high for an estimate.

And if you are suggesting that the interest rate on loans is the cause of that, I think you'd better check your math.

Otherwise it's obvious that your long-term salary reaches $200K for doctors and $220K for both lawyers and business. Other perks and costs exist within each sector that could easily account for the mere 10% difference in annual pay.

Other than your $420K debt @ age 30, I think your data argues that medicine is a good choice financially.


Edit: lol I misread the BIG BOLD words that said medicine is a good financial choice. I'm still curious about the large in-debtness though.
 
Yeah, and that totally works for people wanting just banking because middle market banks and NY top firms pay about the same. The main reason people gun for Goldman/MS etc is because of more opportunities to get into elite hedge funds.

So...why medicine? In your case it sounds like you have good stuff lined up:thumbup:

I really want a job that I would do for free.

I had the pleasure of working almost full time at Target in high school and i was exposed to how much of your life is spent at work. So I told myself that I wanted to find a job that I would do completely for free because of enjoyment and I landed on medicine.

In college, I worked at a medical clinic for two years, shadowed, and did all the other premed stuff and it still seems like the career I would choose to do for free out of the three.
 
Comparing the first 9-10 years of each path (At age 30):

How in the world are you calculating $420,660 in debt for private medical schools?
Even $248,000 in debt through a public school seems a bit high for an estimate.

And if you are suggesting that the interest rate on loans is the cause of that, I think you'd better check your math.

Otherwise it's obvious that your long-term salary reaches $200K for doctors and $220K for both lawyers and business. Other perks and costs exist within each sector that could easily account for the mere 10% difference in annual pay.

Other than your $420K debt @ age 30, I think your data argues that medicine is a good choice financially.

I assumed $10K debt from undergrad. $70K per year for med school and 6.8% interest.

Year 1:$10K+70K=$80K
Year 2: $80K+70K+6.8% interest about= 160K
Year 3: 160K+70K+6.8% interest about=240K
Year 4: 240K+70K+6.8% interest about=320K --age 26

with 6.8% annual interest the number come out to
Residency Y1: 345K
Residency Y2: 368K
Residency Y3: 393.9K
Residency Y4: 420.66K ---age 30



I assumed that the individual did not pay off any part of loans during residency.
 
For the most part, that is not true. Research has shown that for top positions in Business, law, and Banking, the school you attend is the largest determinant of your ability to obtain a position.

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/?sc_itemid={8C1A25AE-CE27-46C3-9203-3DE9D1F2BE8E}


Randomly scrolled through this and this caught my eye.

I would say that the ranking of your business/law school matters more than the ranking of the school.

My school is number 1, 2, or 3 in business depending on who is ranking and number 7 for law, and sends almost all of its graduates to high paying amazing jobs. We're also not an Ivy or top 10 even.
 
One wrinkle in the assessment, however, is that it assumes that the QOL at age 25 is equivalent to the quality of life at age 45.

For multiple reasons, this is not true. Medicine requires a higher degree of indebtedness and essentially does cause you to give up your twenties in much more rigorous studying than the other two paths.

This is a non-quantifiable factor that people would need to consider.

I also did not consider the net present value of the money or inflation. Namely, that having an extra $100K when you are 30 is NOT the same as having an extra $100K when you are 50.

In real terms, the later you receive the return on your investment, the less the money is worth, even if it is the same dollar amount.
 
Randomly scrolled through this and this caught my eye.

I would say that the ranking of your business/law school matters more than the ranking of the school.

My school is number 1, 2, or 3 in business depending on who is ranking and number 7 for law, and sends almost all of its graduates to high paying amazing jobs. We're also not an Ivy or top 10 even.

What do you mean? When I referred to the top schools (i.e. law/business), I was referring to the top in their respective field not the school overall.

For example, NYU law is top notch and better than most Ivy law schools, so it is easily top tier for law school. But the undergrad would not be considered as good.
 
No one is talking about getting rich. We're comparing high-paying professions. If you think you can get rich by working for somebody else, then you've already lost.

+1000000000000000 :thumbup:
 
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