A Student Adcom's Thoughts on MCAT Scores

QofQuimica · Sep 10, 2010

I got a PM asking me about how adcoms use MCAT scores, so I figured I'd post my answer here since some of the rest of you might also want to read it. Before I start, please read this post with the caveat that I am one single adcom at one single medical school. Other medical schools do things differently, and even at my school, other adcoms have different opinions than I do. Also, in the interest of disclosure, this is now my fourth year of being a student adcom, and I have read and voted on several hundred apps. Even so, you should feel free to take my thoughts for what you think they're worth. On that note, let's begin.

My gentle PM writer asked how much MCAT scores really matter to the adcom. My answer to this would be that if your score is too low, it matters a lot. What is too low? I would define the cut point as being around 27-28. Below a 27, you are much more likely to be screened out for your score. On the other hand, if you have a 30 or better, your MCAT score is not likely to be an issue. If you have a 35 or better, you are among the most elite applicants in terms of MCAT scores. Basically, if you don't get into medical school with a 35+ MCAT, it's you, not us.

Related question: how impressed is the adcom with a 40+ MCAT? This varies tremendously. Personally, it doesn't affect my evaluation at all if person A has a 35 and person B has a 40. Once you get to the high 30s, you reach a point where doing better on the MCAT gives diminishing returns IMO. However, there are other members of my school's adcom who are more stats-oriented and like seeing applicants with very high scores.

Next question: is it true that multiple retakes of the MCAT will hurt you? My answer to this would be that it depends. My school takes all MCAT scores into consideration, not just the most recent score. If you retake and improve significantly (which I would define as a change of 3+ points), it's possible that you will be asked about your improvement during an interview, but yes, that will help you, especially if your retake score is 30+. If you retake and go down, yes, that will work to your disadvantage, especially if it's a significant drop. If you retake and score the same (or within 1-2 points), it depends. Personally, I do tend to look at this as being an unwise decision by the applicant, especially if the first score was already 30+. However, it's not an automatic dealbreaker. I think my position is probably pretty middle-of-the-road when it comes to this--some adcoms care more, and others don't care.

Next question: what do we think about a person with a high MCAT and a low GPA? Again, it depends on why the GPA is low. If the person is a nontrad with poor grades from several years ago and they have since done well in a post bac (which I define as a 3.8+ GPA), then the overall GPA won't matter to me as much even if it's still fairly low compared to our average. If the student is a trad who has shown a trend of improvement during college (i.e., a bad freshman year and then a strong sophomore and especially junior year), again, that will make the overall GPA matter less to me. But if the grades are consistently low, and especially if the grades have gone down over time as the student started taking harder science courses, that will be a red flag to me. Med school science classes tend to be as rigorous if not more rigorous than college classes, so I don't want to see people's grades going down when the going gets tough, even if their MCAT score is high.

Last question: do MCAT scores really predict board scores? They are correlated, but it's not an extremely strong correlation. The USMLE is a different kind of test than the MCAT is, much more information based. The people who do the best on Step 1 are people who work hard during their preclinical years and study hard for the test.

Hope this helps, and best of luck to you all.

QofQuimica · Apr 15, 2011

BHaus9 said:
Ah, yes, valid question. I outperformed myself on the GRE and wondering if it would be in the least bit beneficial to include my score if I'm not applying to any MD/PhD programs.

Again, won't hurt, probably won't help. Just for the record, most MD/PhD program applicants are *not* required to take the GRE; they are evaluated based upon MCAT scores just like straight-MD applicants are. For those who are interested, you can find more info about MD/PhD admissions in the Physician Scientists forum.

NoMatterWhat · Apr 15, 2011

great thread! can you tell me how adcom looks at SMP (med course) performance? What GPA from SMP is good enough? What is bad?
Scenario: if a person had "bad" SMP GPA,would you recommend the person to take more courses to prove his capability, or forget medicine entirely?

apumic · Apr 15, 2011

NoMatterWhat said:
great thread! can you tell me how adcom looks at SMP (med course) performance? What GPA from SMP is good enough? What is bad?
Scenario: if a person had "bad" SMP GPA due to extenuating circumstance, would you take it into account? would you recommend the person to take more courses to prove his capability, or forget medicine entirely?

Conventional wisdom is that anything less than a 3.8 or so in an SMP won't help you. Anything less than a 3.5-3.6 or so is probably a guillotine to your app. An SMP is your like 35th chance to get it right (k-12 and then college). Most people in an SMP get straight As (or maybe straight As and 1 A-). Anything less than that is probably not going to get much grace at this pt, sorry. But maybe Q sees things differently. That's only the conventional wisdom around here.

QofQuimica · Apr 16, 2011

apumic said:
Conventional wisdom is that anything less than a 3.8 or so in an SMP won't help you. Anything less than a 3.5-3.6 or so is probably a guillotine to your app. An SMP is your like 35th chance to get it right (k-12 and then college). Most people in an SMP get straight As (or maybe straight As and 1 A-). Anything less than that is probably not going to get much grace at this pt, sorry. But maybe Q sees things differently. That's only the conventional wisdom around here.

No, I pretty much agree with this, though I'm not sure the boundaries are quite this rigid. But ideally a postbac or SMP student would get a 3.8+ GPA, since the point of doing the postbac or SMP is to prove that you can do well in rigorous science coursework. A below average GPA in one of these programs won't exactly help your cause.

apumic · Apr 16, 2011

QofQuimica said:
No, I pretty much agree with this, though I'm not sure the boundaries are quite this rigid. But ideally a postbac or SMP student would get a 3.8+ GPA, since the point of doing the postbac or SMP is to prove that you can do well in rigorous science coursework. A below average GPA in one of these programs won't exactly help your cause.

True. I don't think any "boundaries" in admissions are rigid, really. The data just don't bear that out. Instead, we see a lot of flexibility. I was giving general guidelines of sorts based upon what I've observed here.

grt398 · Apr 16, 2011

I was curious about how important MCAT vs. post bac grades would be for a non-trad. I was supposed to take the May MCAT but I'm still taking my final 2 classes/working and it's become pretty apparent May won't be a possibility...even June is going to be challenging.

So my question is as follows...do adcoms prefer a higher post bac GPA or a higher MCAT? Let's say if I put the time into my classes, my post bac GPA will finish > 3.9 but my MCAT would probably end up in the 30-32 range, whereas if I change gears and focus on the MCAT, my post bac GPA is likely to drop to ~3.75 and I think I can score in the 34-36 range. Either way my uGPA will be ~3.75.

Any advice on which path I should pursue?

arborvitae3 · Apr 16, 2011

I hope my question is still in the vein of this thread's topic. Basically I'm facing a regret of changing my MCAT to a later date due to severe urging and nervousness, unfortunately. My original MCAT date was May 21st, but I was having serious doubts and having had a bad record my freshman and sophomore year, I couldn't let this semester get the best of me and lower my finally lookable gpa. Also, I intend to utilize my potential and attain a competitive score on the MCAT :xf:

So now I'm facing an MCAT date of July 16th and the absolute earliest my application would be completely complete, with the MCAT score, would be August 16th... :/ And, of course, the only earlier seat is July 6th at 1pm, at which time my energy/stamina/concentration fade like WHOA.

Based on your experience, QofQuimica (and of course anyone else willing to offer me advice!), how does the adcom committee deal with an application as "late" as mine will potentially be? Moreover, will I be at a disadvantage with such a "late" application?

Thanks in advance!

NoMatterWhat · Apr 17, 2011

apumic said:
Conventional wisdom is that anything less than a 3.8 or so in an SMP won't help you. Anything less than a 3.5-3.6 or so is probably a guillotine to your app.

Wow, that's harsh. Though SMP students don't take the full courseload but the majority of 1st year coursework. Some SMP let students take all M1 courses except clinical. Most schools are on P/F system where students just need to Pass. I think if someone can get 3.5 in SMP, they won't have any trouble at all in med school. Why don't med schools give them a chance?

QofQuimica · Apr 17, 2011

grt398 said:
So my question is as follows...do adcoms prefer a higher post bac GPA or a higher MCAT?

I feel the same way about this question as I do about being asked whether I'd prefer to have my right arm or my right leg. Whichever one you cut off, I'm still going to be significantly handicapped. Ditto for your application.

QofQuimica · Apr 17, 2011

arborvitae3 said:
Based on your experience, QofQuimica (and of course anyone else willing to offer me advice!), how does the adcom committee deal with an application as "late" as mine will potentially be? Moreover, will I be at a disadvantage with such a "late" application?

August is later than the ideal, but not unrecoverably late. You should go ahead and submit your AMCAS in June and apply to one school at that time. That will allow your app to be verified early and be complete and ready to go as soon as your MCAT score comes back. You can add more schools on AMCAS later, even after being verified for a month or two. Once you get secondaries, you need to return them quickly. Have your LORs ready to go out in August, and maybe even start drafting some essays for nonscreening schools ahead of time.

At my school, we will treat your app the same no matter when you apply. The problem with being complete later in the season is that we get bogged down with the screening, and you'll have to wait longer for an interview decision to be made. If you're really late (applying right before our deadline), odds are good that we may run out of interview slots altogether and put you on preinterview hold. Waiting sucks, as anyone who has gone through the app process can tell you. The earlier you submit, the earlier you get secondaries, interviews, and acceptances.

QofQuimica · Apr 17, 2011

NoMatterWhat said:
Wow, that's harsh. Though SMP students don't take the full courseload but the majority of 1st year coursework. Some SMP let students take all M1 courses except clinical. Most schools are on P/F system where students just need to Pass. I think if someone can get 3.5 in SMP, they won't have any trouble at all in med school. Why don't med schools give them a chance?

Because we get a few dozen applications for every seat in our class. There are many more qualified applicants than there are interview slots, and there are many more qualified interviewees than there are seats in our incoming class. When there are dozens of people with 3.8+ post bac GPAs, it's a lot harder to justify taking people with 3.5's, especially since that's below our class average. (It's also below the national average, which is around 3.6 for allo matriculants.) I'd never say it's impossible for someone with a 3.5 postbac GPA to get accepted, but it's a longer shot for anyone whose GPA is below average, especially someone whose postbac GPA is below average.

ghostman · Apr 17, 2011

I heard the uniformity of MCAT scores have a significant weight. If someone does not manage to break 10 in a particular section, is it detrimental?

For example:
PS,VR,BS
Applicant A: 10,10,10 = 30
Applicant B: 12,8,12 = 32

Which candidate is in better shape?

QofQuimica · Apr 17, 2011

ghostman said:
I heard the uniformity of MCAT scores have a significant weight. If someone does not manage to break 10 in a particular section, is it detrimental?

For example:
PS,VR,BS
Applicant A: 10,10,10 = 30
Applicant B: 12,8,12 = 32

Which candidate is in better shape?

As I've explained previously, it's impossible to answer questions like this without having any context from the rest of the person's app.

tmg1325 · Apr 17, 2011

I have a question- do you generally look really specifically at what classes we've taken and can the MCAT make up for that? I took Bio 100 (a one-semester Bio course with lab designed for non-science majors) and I'm currently in Biochem. I'm not sure how well that would count for the whole "year of biology" prereq, but when I called the guy said he thought it would work, although I'm not sure how right he was. Anyways, since I haven't had much Bio, would getting a good score on the BS section of the MCAT demonstrate that I was able to successfully teach myself the material and lessen the importance of not having those prereqs?

grt398 · Apr 17, 2011

QofQuimica said:
I feel the same way about this question as I do about being asked whether I'd prefer to have my right arm or my right leg. Whichever one you cut off, I'm still going to be significantly handicapped. Ditto for your application.

Fair enough. Thanks for the feedback. I'll just do the best I can and keep my fingers crossed I guess.

Thirteeen · Apr 17, 2011

An SMP GPA of < 3.8 is inferior??? LOL Only on SDN, you need a 4.0 uGPA, 4.5 gGPA, 44 MCAT and have performed two open heart surgeries to be accepted to med schools. All of my friends who are in med schools (MD) currently had uGPA of around 3.5 and MCAT of 27-29. :shrug:

ridethecliche · Apr 17, 2011

Thirteeen said:
An SMP GPA of < 3.8 is inferior??? LOL Only on SDN, you need a 4.0 uGPA, 4.5 gGPA, 44 MCAT and have performed two open heart surgeries to be accepted to med schools. All of my friends who are in med schools (MD) currently had uGPA of around 3.5 and MCAT of 27-29.

Do you know what they're talking about or do you like making stuff up?

Glad your friends got in with those stats, but I'm going to take the word of an adcom member over yours.

I have a friend who's going to med school this fall with a ugpa that was under 3.0 and he's not a URM. If I end there, you're like BS. Now I'm telling you that he got a 40 on his MCAT and there are a ton of other things on his app that I'm not sharing and others that I don't know.

What seems to be the consensus is that if you have a weak ugpa and you go to an SMP program, then you have to do REALLY well there to show that you have what it takes.

In addition, the OP has consistently said that things are considered relatively instead of in isolation and that her (?) institution doesn't do blind cutoffs. That seems to be the point of all this talk.

Thirteeen · Apr 17, 2011

ridethecliche said:
I'm going to take the word of an adcom member over yours.

How do you know that s/he is an adcomm? This is SDN. I could come here and tell people that I am the President of AMA. LOL

My point is that there are no rigid algorithm that med schools employ. If that were the case, we wouldn't have people with 2.5 GPA in med schools today. So, by making a statement that anything less than a 3.8 GPA in an SMP program is grounds for a rejection is totally unsupported. Why would one discourage people with such nonsense?

ridethecliche · Apr 17, 2011

Thirteeen said:
1) How do you know that s/he is an adcomm? This is SDN. I could come here and tell people that I am the President of AMA. LOL

2) My point is that there are no rigid algorithm that med schools employ. If that were the case, we wouldn't have people with 2.5 GPA in med schools today. So, by making a statement that anything less than a 3.8 GPA in an SMP program is grounds for a rejection is totally unsupported. Why would one discourage people with such nonsense?

1) http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=10125857&postcount=1

2) They NEVER said grounds for rejection. Just that it reflects poorly. Most go to do an SMP program to show that they can handle the workload after they did poorly in undergrad. It's a one trick pony. This is you proving that you have what it takes to get stuff done.

It is DIFFERENT if you haven't taken the prereqs and are doing the SMP to get them in. If you have already taken most of the classes and are using the program to boost your cGPA, then it behooves you to do well.

tmg1325 · Apr 17, 2011

Thirteeen said:
How do you know that s/he is an adcomm? This is SDN. I could come here and tell people that I am the President of AMA. LOL

My point is that there are no rigid algorithm that med schools employ. If that were the case, we wouldn't have people with 2.5 GPA in med schools today. So, by making a statement that anything less than a 3.8 GPA in an SMP program is grounds for a rejection is totally unsupported. Why would one discourage people with such nonsense?

14,000 posts later, I'm pretty sure someone that was just making stuff up would have been busted.

And duh, there are always exceptions. But I'm pretty skeptical about how many people are actually enrolled in med school with GPA's under 3.0. There aren't that many medical schools or medical school spots- and there are plenty of much more highly qualified candidates that want to go. You'd have to be pretty exceptional in some way to get in with such a low GPA.

Also, SMP GPA and undergrad GPA are not the same thing, not even close. The whole point of an SMP is to do EXTRA well to convince the schools that even though you didn't have the stats earlier, they should let you in because you proved yourself in grad school. You have to do that much better to get past the doubt in their minds.

Ignatius M.D. · Apr 18, 2011

I think what 13 is saying, is that a 3.8 in med school classes is exceptional considering that that would put you in the top 10-20% of med students. The reason we try for good grades is to prove we can handle it, not to prove we can beat everyone else. That's such a toxic mentality. If I were an ADCOM and saw an applicant with a 3.6 SMP GPA, I'd be comfortable in the knowledge that they will have no problem handling the work, and would instead look at other aspects to see if they're a good fit. I agree that in an SMP you are making up for shaky past grades, but to say that an A- average (3.6) is not good enough is really just being unreasonable. So an applicant with a 3.2 uGPA, 34 MCAT, and 3.5 SMP, is undesirable, even though they have proven they can more than handle medical school curriculum?

Gara · Apr 18, 2011

Vandy Premed said:
I think what 13 is saying, is that a 3.8 in med school classes is exceptional considering that that would put you in the top 10-20% of med students. The reason we try for good grades is to prove we can handle it, not to prove we can beat everyone else. That's such a toxic mentality. If I were an ADCOM and saw an applicant with a 3.6 SMP GPA, I'd be comfortable in the knowledge that they will have no problem handling the work, and would instead look at other aspects to see if they're a good fit. I agree that in an SMP you are making up for shaky past grades, but to say that an A- average (3.6) is not good enough is really just being unreasonable. So an applicant with a 3.2 uGPA, 34 MCAT, and 3.5 SMP, is undesirable, even though they have proven they can more than handle medical school curriculum?

I think we ignore something that is repeated quite often by saying they can "handle" medical school curriculum and that is how competitive the application process is. Sure a person with those stats could handle the material but why should a medical school accept that person over another with similar drive and extracurriculars with a 3.9 uGPA?

Also I wanted to drive home Q's point about applying as EARLY AS POSSIBLE! My main hope doesn't consider time of application but most schools I've applied to do. Like really really do...

muhali3 · Apr 18, 2011

Thirteeen said:
How do you know that s/he is an adcomm? This is SDN. I could come here and tell people that I am the President of AMA. LOL

QofQuimica is one of the founding members of this site, and I'm also sure SDN has a way of verifying adcom status. But yeah...I agree with the rest of your post.

QofQuimica · Apr 19, 2011

tmg1325 said:
I have a question- do you generally look really specifically at what classes we've taken and can the MCAT make up for that? I took Bio 100 (a one-semester Bio course with lab designed for non-science majors) and I'm currently in Biochem. I'm not sure how well that would count for the whole "year of biology" prereq, but when I called the guy said he thought it would work, although I'm not sure how right he was. Anyways, since I haven't had much Bio, would getting a good score on the BS section of the MCAT demonstrate that I was able to successfully teach myself the material and lessen the importance of not having those prereqs?

In general, the word "prereq" has the "required" part in it for a reason, and none of these classes is optional. However, some schools will make exceptions on a case-by-case basis, including mine. You should contact each school individually and ask what their policy would be. If the school you plan to attend will not make an exception, you would have to take the bio course over the summer before you matriculate if you hadn't taken it before then. Not a fun way to spend your last summer of freedom, but not the end of the world, either.

QofQuimica · Apr 19, 2011

Thirteeen said:
An SMP GPA of < 3.8 is inferior??? LOL Only on SDN, you need a 4.0 uGPA, 4.5 gGPA, 44 MCAT and have performed two open heart surgeries to be accepted to med schools. All of my friends who are in med schools (MD) currently had uGPA of around 3.5 and MCAT of 27-29.

There is a very big difference between having an undergrad GPA of 3.5 your first time in college, versus having a sub-3.0 undergrad GPA and then doing an SMP/postbac to try to prove you can do better. These types of programs are second chances, and so yes, we do generally expect people to do better than average if they've done poorly during their first stint in college.

QofQuimica · Apr 19, 2011

Thirteeen said:
How do you know that s/he is an adcomm? This is SDN. I could come here and tell people that I am the President of AMA. LOL

Fair enough. I would point out that you should feel free to take my advice for whatever you think it's worth. You certainly can't complain about what I've charged you for it.

However, I would ask that you at least not misrepresent what I've said before discounting my opinion. See below.

My point is that there are no rigid algorithm that med schools employ. If that were the case, we wouldn't have people with 2.5 GPA in med schools today. So, by making a statement that anything less than a 3.8 GPA in an SMP program is grounds for a rejection is totally unsupported. Why would one discourage people with such nonsense?

As others have pointed out, I did *not* say that anything less than a 3.8 GPA in an SMP is grounds for rejection. However, average (or especially below average) performance in an SMP/postbac is certainly not going to be a boon to your app, especially if you're starting out with a sub-3.0 GPA to begin with.

QofQuimica · Apr 19, 2011

muhali3 said:
QofQuimica is one of the founding members of this site, and I'm also sure SDN has a way of verifying adcom status. But yeah...I agree with the rest of your post.

Unfortunately, no, I'm not one of the founding members of SDN, although I've been a member for seven years now (since I was a premed.

) SDN was founded by Lee Burnett, who is one of the administrators of the site. The SDN administrators do know who I am IRL, and I have met several of them. However, to my knowledge, they have not ever contacted the admissions dean at my school to verify that I'm on the committee, although it would be a simple matter to do so if they wished.

To those who are jumping on Thirteeen for questioning my identity, I don't think it's wrong to be skeptical about what you read on SDN. The fact that I've been on SDN for a long time is not a guarantee that I'm not misrepresenting myself, although one thing that does make it less likely is that I've had to identify myself to the administrators of this site in order to become a moderator. I would also put out there that I have nothing to gain by passing myself off as something I'm not. I've already gone through medical school; I have nothing to gain personally by misleading any of you. I also have no reason to start trolling after all of these years. But again, you are free to take issue with my advice, and you are free to disagree with me. I won't pretend that I know all the answers, and I won't be arrogant enough to claim that I speak for the other adcoms at my own school, let alone all medical school adcoms.

Finally, FWIW, I'm a "she." I've never understood how or why my posts exude such raw masculinity that the majority of the SDN community concludes that I'm a guy. But I've been a female for 36 years now, and I feel it's pretty safe to say that I'll be staying female permanently.

Gara · Apr 19, 2011

QofQuimica said:
Finally, FWIW, I'm a "she." I've never understood how or why my posts exude such raw masculinity that the majority of the SDN community concludes that I'm a guy. But I've been a female for 36 years now, and I feel it's pretty safe to say that I'll be staying female permanently.

In a school specific forum I was recently called out on coming off as a "she" when I am in fact male. I think my inexperience in conveying enthusiasm over the internet (smileys and exclamation points) somehow came off as feminine. So then I over compensated by switching to my current avatar....

Thirteeen · Apr 19, 2011

QofQuimica said:
To those who are jumping on Thirteeen for questioning my identity...

Didn't mean any disrespect ma'am.

Just love being skeptical. After all, this is SDN, where most students have a 4.0 GPA, 42 MCAT and have done two open heart surgeries during premed.

Thirteeen · Apr 19, 2011

Gara said:
In a school specific forum I was recently called out on coming off as a "she" when I am in fact male. I think my inexperience in conveying enthusiasm over the internet (smileys and exclamation points) somehow came off as feminine. So then I over compensated by switching to my current avatar....

Gara,

You are indeed a man with very nice stats. :bow:

Gara · Apr 19, 2011

Thirteeen said:
Gara,

You are indeed a man with very nice stats.

Hah thank you but I'm afraid I am in fact a stupid man who got rejected from most schools for applying late and not giving enough thought into picking schools.

That's why I wanted second Q's comment about applying early. Applicants with less than stellar MCAT scores can impove their chances by applying early, widely and most importantly intelligently. In my case I applied to WAY too many state schools, most of which didn't even offer me an interview.

MayoorBust · Apr 20, 2011

What does each section of the MCAT tell you as an ADCOM?

PS-

VR-

BS-

I think this will help some people understand why a decent but uneven score is look down upon.

QofQuimica · Apr 20, 2011

Thirteeen said:
Didn't mean any disrespect ma'am. Just love being skeptical. After all, this is SDN, where most students have a 4.0 GPA, 42 MCAT and have done two open heart surgeries during premed.

None taken. Like I said, a healthy dose of skepticism is a good thing to have.

MayoorBust said:
What does each section of the MCAT tell you as an ADCOM?

PS-

VR-

BS-

I think this will help some people understand why a decent but uneven score is look down upon.

I can't say I've ever broken it down that specifically. We'd have to define exactly what "uneven" means, because what I call uneven might not be what you do. Be that as it may, personally, I'm more concerned about what the overall score and subscores are, rather than by how far apart they are. For example, I wouldn't necessarily be concerned by an applicant who had an 8 VR and 14s on both science sections, especially if English is not that person's native language. This is in spite of the fact that you and I would probably both agree that these subscores are pretty darn uneven! However, an applicant who has three 11s might be at something of a disadvantage with some of the adcom members who like to see very high overall scores, even though that is a perfectly balanced score (and IMO, a perfectly reasonable score for consideration).

MayoorBust · Apr 20, 2011

QofQuimica said:
None taken. Like I said, a healthy dose of skepticism is a good thing to have.

I can't say I've ever broken it down that specifically. We'd have to define exactly what "uneven" means, because what I call uneven might not be what you do. Be that as it may, personally, I'm more concerned about what the overall score and subscores are, rather than by how far apart they are. For example, I wouldn't necessarily be concerned by an applicant who had an 8 VR and 14s on both science sections, especially if English is not that person's native language. This is in spite of the fact that you and I would probably both agree that these subscores are pretty darn uneven! However, an applicant who has three 11s might be at something of a disadvantage with some of the adcom members who like to see very high overall scores, even though that is a perfectly balanced score (and IMO, a perfectly reasonable score for consideration).

Yeah. I do not believe this. I have seen several pre matriculation programs that are for "at risk" students cite that individuals with low verbal scores are encouraged to attend. ADCOM must be able to ascertain different things about an individual's aptitude from the subsection scores. 14 8 14 you cannot tell me that the verbal score of this applicant will not come up during in the applicant's commitee hearing. 14,000 post or a million I am skeptical as well. Thanks for answering the question.

Gara · Apr 20, 2011

MayoorBust said:
Yeah. I do not believe this. I have seen several pre matriculation programs that are for "at risk" students cite that individuals with low verbal scores are encouraged to attend. ADCOM must be able to ascertain different things about an individual's aptitude from the subsection scores. 14 8 14 you cannot tell me that the verbal score of this applicant will not come up during in the applicant's commitee hearing. 14,000 post or a million I am skeptical as well. Thanks for answering the question.

Mayoorbust you're coming off as a little hostile in that response especially given that it was your question Q was addressing.

Also I have to say I have a hard time believing the committee considers the MCAT the end all be all of an applicant (otherwise we wouldnt have essays or interviews) my verbal score jumped 4 points for no reason while other sections dropped. I'm sure the committees are aware of how variable the scores can be.

Gara · Apr 20, 2011

QofQuimica said:
None taken. Like I said, a healthy dose of skepticism is a good thing to have.

I can't say I've ever broken it down that specifically. We'd have to define exactly what "uneven" means, because what I call uneven might not be what you do. Be that as it may, personally, I'm more concerned about what the overall score and subscores are, rather than by how far apart they are. For example, I wouldn't necessarily be concerned by an applicant who had an 8 VR and 14s on both science sections, especially if English is not that person's native language. This is in spite of the fact that you and I would probably both agree that these subscores are pretty darn uneven! However, an applicant who has three 11s might be at something of a disadvantage with some of the adcom members who like to see very high overall scores, even though that is a perfectly balanced score (and IMO, a perfectly reasonable score for consideration).

Operating under the assumption that Q is honest because SDN is nothing but faith and assumptions: Do you think, in your opinion, that a committee would go so far as to consider an applicants higher science GPA when looking at their lower PS score? What I mean is could they look at the stats and say something like " Well he or she seems to be able to handle the scientific material given their undergraduate grades"?

QofQuimica · Apr 20, 2011

MayoorBust said:
Yeah. I do not believe this. I have seen several pre matriculation programs that are for "at risk" students cite that individuals with low verbal scores are encouraged to attend. ADCOM must be able to ascertain different things about an individual's aptitude from the subsection scores. 14 8 14 you cannot tell me that the verbal score of this applicant will not come up during in the applicant's commitee hearing. 14,000 post or a million I am skeptical as well. Thanks for answering the question.

Again, it depends on how you define your terms. Do you consider an 8 to be "low" score? Yes, it's lower than our average, but not to the point that it's dealbreaker low, IMO. As for whether the 8 VR score in my hypothetical example comes up at the adcom meeting, sure, it might. But with an overall score of 36, it might not, especially if the rest of the applicant's app is stellar. Thing is, a 36 is above our class average, and that won't escape the notice of the committee members who care about stats. Also, the mere fact that we discuss something doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to sink someone's app. We discuss the strengths of applicants too, not just the weaknesses.

As I've said several times, I'm telling you all how *I* look at things. Concerning how anyone else feels, YMMV. This may surprise some of you, but adcoms are not a monolithic group of people who all think exactly alike! If we were, there wouldn't be any need to have meetings to discuss applicants at all, since we'd all be in agreement already.

QofQuimica · Apr 20, 2011

Gara said:
Operating under the assumption that Q is honest because SDN is nothing but faith and assumptions: Do you think, in your opinion, that a committee would go so far as to consider an applicants higher science GPA when looking at their lower PS score? What I mean is could they look at the stats and say something like " Well he or she seems to be able to handle the scientific material given their undergraduate grades"?

I personally haven't ever dissected someone's academic record to try to perform a calculus like that. There isn't any specific GPA that would make me say, "oh, ok, I'm going to ignore the PS subscore." Again, it also depends on how you're defining "low" here. But the circumstances leading to a "low" PS score, however we're defining that, would definitely affect my consideration. How strong the rest of the academic record is, and what the rest of the context is, matter too. I don't look at a disadvantaged applicant the same as I do a legacy applicant. (Legacy applicants are people whose parents or other family members attended medical school here, work as physicians/researchers here, or are otherwise affiliated with the med school.)

Bayonetwork · Apr 21, 2011

Im in LOVE said:
There is something really sexy about a woman who can get a 43 on the MCAT, like Victoria Secrets kind of sexy. You get my vote for the hotest chick on SDN, maybe the hottest chick in med school.

So tell me something, say I do pretty poorly on this here MCAT but I got one hell of a application otherwise, what's verdict. If I squeeze by the automatic cutoffs and land an interview, could I charm my way to an acceptance.

No, just no.

Trisphorin · Apr 21, 2011

I believe this question has been raised many times. But I would really like to hear your opinion on this. How would you access GPA's influence in the admission process? is it more or less or equally important as MCAT? Secondly, is there a diminishing return for higher GPA, for example from a 3.95 to a 4.00? because i know you said before that there is a diminishing return on a MCAT score of 35 or above.

Thanks alot!

QofQuimica · Apr 21, 2011

Trisphorin said:
I believe this question has been raised many times. But I would really like to hear your opinion on this. How would you access GPA's influence in the admission process? is it more or less or equally important as MCAT?

It may be different at different schools, but for us, they're equal. In other words, a high GPA won't make up for a low MCAT, nor the reverse. So if you have a low GPA, you probably need to do some kind of postbac, especially if you're in the sub-3.0 range. If you have a low MCAT, you probably need to retake, especially if you're in the sub-27 range.

Secondly, is there a diminishing return for higher GPA, for example from a 3.95 to a 4.00? because i know you said before that there is a diminishing return on a MCAT score of 35 or above.

Again, my school doesn't use a formula for MCAT and GPA. So an incremental increase of 1/20th of a GPA point like this won't make a difference.

MayoorBust · Apr 22, 2011

QofQuimica said:
Again, it depends on how you define your terms. Do you consider an 8 to be "low" score? Yes, it's lower than our average, but not to the point that it's dealbreaker low, IMO. As for whether the 8 VR score in my hypothetical example comes up at the adcom meeting, sure, it might. But with an overall score of 36, it might not, especially if the rest of the applicant's app is stellar. Thing is, a 36 is above our class average, and that won't escape the notice of the committee members who care about stats. Also, the mere fact that we discuss something doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to sink someone's app. We discuss the strengths of applicants too, not just the weaknesses.

As I've said several times, I'm telling you all how *I* look at things. Concerning how anyone else feels, YMMV. This may surprise some of you, but adcoms are not a monolithic group of people who all think exactly alike! If we were, there wouldn't be any need to have meetings to discuss applicants at all, since we'd all be in agreement already.

I see. I am sorry for my harsh sounding comment. Keep on keeping on

PD187540 · Apr 22, 2011

grt398 said:
I was curious about how important MCAT vs. post bac grades would be for a non-trad. I was supposed to take the May MCAT but I'm still taking my final 2 classes/working and it's become pretty apparent May won't be a possibility...even June is going to be challenging.

So my question is as follows...do adcoms prefer a higher post bac GPA or a higher MCAT? Let's say if I put the time into my classes, my post bac GPA will finish > 3.9 but my MCAT would probably end up in the 30-32 range, whereas if I change gears and focus on the MCAT, my post bac GPA is likely to drop to ~3.75 and I think I can score in the 34-36 range. Either way my uGPA will be ~3.75.

Any advice on which path I should pursue?

Speaking of post-bacc GPAs, wouldn't the main GPA matter more than what you get post-bacc? Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're only taking two courses to complete med school requirements, what big of a deal will a 4.0 post-bacc GPA REALLY make if your undergrad one is 2.8? Not much, if you ask me. I wonder how many post-bacc courses it would take for a post-bacc GPA to hold any weight...THAT should be the reasoning behind evaluating post-bacc GPAs, no?

In my case, I'm taking Physics I now, then Physics II and Orgo II over the summer to finish my pre-reqs. uGPA is 3.97 (Pathologist's Assistant degree), so far acing Physics I with an A. Graduated from college 6 years ago. So after 6 years, me acing Physics I must mean I still "got it, baby". A "C" in the next two courses may raise an eyebrow or two, but heck, it won't change my GPA that much at all, and there may be a little leeway given for summer courses..who knows. But that's all hypothetical...I plan on working my *** off like I usually do.

Anyways...

I'd also like to know what an adcom would think if someone were to get an MCAT of 25, but has a relatively high GPA of 3.97 (using me as a hypothetical example, although I'm not taking the MCAT until next year). Assume that the other components of the application are above average (great personal statement, decent LORs, work experience, clinical internship, a year of volunteering at a clinic). Still interview-worthy?

I think the whole key to gaining acceptance is to put yourself inside the shoes of the adcom. I've been saying this time and time again, and not everyone has this ability. Those who do are the ones who can make gold out of horse manure.

QuantumFlame · Apr 22, 2011

First of all, thanks QofQuimica for taking the time to answer all these questions.
My question isn't directly related to the MCAT, however, it seems that this has turned into an "Ask the Adcom", so I don't feel so bad lol

In your opinion, do you, or any Adcom members you've heard of give any weight to the rank (adjunct, associate etc.) of the science professors you ask for a LOR? I would assume that the most important factor would be how well they know you, your skills and your experiences etc. however, it would be nice to know if one type of professor is regarded in a particularly favorable or unfavorable light. Thank you!

QofQuimica · Apr 22, 2011

PD187540 said:
Anyways...

I'd also like to know what an adcom would think if someone were to get an MCAT of 25, but has a relatively high GPA of 3.97 (using me as a hypothetical example, although I'm not taking the MCAT until next year). Assume that the other components of the application are above average (great personal statement, decent LORs, work experience, clinical internship, a year of volunteering at a clinic). Still interview-worthy?

Depends on the context. 25 is very far below our average, and most people with a 25 would not be invited. However, we have interviewed candidates with MCAT scores in the mid-twenties if they are disadvantaged or if they're legacy. I'm sympathetic to applicants in the first group. But don't even get me going on how much I detest giving courtesy invites to legacy candidates who are only getting invited because of their connections....

QofQuimica · Apr 22, 2011

QuantumFlame said:
First of all, thanks QofQuimica for taking the time to answer all these questions.
My question isn't directly related to the MCAT, however, it seems that this has turned into an "Ask the Adcom", so I don't feel so bad lol

In your opinion, do you, or any Adcom members you've heard of give any weight to the rank (adjunct, associate etc.) of the science professors you ask for a LOR? I would assume that the most important factor would be how well they know you, your skills and your experiences etc. however, it would be nice to know if one type of professor is regarded in a particularly favorable or unfavorable light. Thank you!

The only reason it might matter is that the more senior profs have interacted with many more premeds than the assistant profs have. So if a senior prof who has been teaching intro chemistry to premeds for forty years says that you're the best student he's ever had, that would make a very good impression! However, it's best to have profs who know you well write the LORs, even if they're more junior. A strong, specific LOR from an assistant or adjunct prof will do you a lot more good than a generic one-liner from a department chairman who barely knows you. However, I would advise against getting LORs from TAs, since they're usually students. (You didn't ask about that, but I'm putting it out there anyway in case anyone else was wondering.)

Bayonetwork · Apr 23, 2011

QofQuimica said:
The only reason it might matter is that the more senior profs have interacted with many more premeds than the assistant profs have. So if a senior prof who has been teaching intro chemistry to premeds for forty years says that you're the best student he's ever had, that would make a very good impression! However, it's best to have profs who know you well write the LORs, even if they're more junior. A strong, specific LOR from an assistant or adjunct prof will do you a lot more good than a generic one-liner from a department chairman who barely knows you. However, I would advise against getting LORs from TAs, since they're usually students. (You didn't ask about that, but I'm putting it out there anyway in case anyone else was wondering.)

A related question....do LORs from physicians we shadow have any benefit if the physician works at that school (like a teaching hospital affiliated with the school)? A physician I shadowed actually was a preceptor for the medical students rotating through his specialty so I was actually shadowing him and following this group of medical students around. He was not affiliated with the medical school in any other way but oversaw this group of students and graded or approved them on their rotation performance.
The experience was certainly much more impacting than just the typical shadowing experience.

Or what about a doctor who has a son or daughter currently at the medical school you are applying to? I shadowed another physician who's daughter is currently in medical school in the same state so I was provided with a lot of good info from him and also got to meet his daughter who showed me around the school.

Mostly Im wondering how I should ask the physicians to include this in their LORs without it sounding too contrived?

apumic · Apr 23, 2011

Bayonetwork said:
A related question....do LORs from physicians we shadow have any benefit if the physician works at that school (like a teaching hospital affiliated with the school)? A physician I shadowed actually was a preceptor for the medical students rotating through his specialty so I was actually shadowing him and following this group of medical students around. He was not affiliated with the medical school in any other way but oversaw this group of students and graded or approved them on their rotation performance.
The experience was certainly much more impacting than just the typical shadowing experience.

Or what about a doctor who has a son or daughter currently at the medical school you are applying to? I shadowed another physician who's daughter is currently in medical school in the same state so I was provided with a lot of good info from him and also got to meet his daughter who showed me around the school.

Mostly Im wondering how I should ask the physicians to include this in their LORs without it sounding too contrived?

Probably minimal, if any, influence. Docs you simply shadow really have nothing important to say about you (and everyone reading the letter knows it). Most docs simply supervising on rotations have limited contact with the school from what I have seen. It's unlikely a letter from him would be worthwhile. A doc whose kid goes a med school is about as valuable as a letter from the kid that goes to the school (i.e., worth more as kindling for a camp fire than with a stamp on it).

QofQuimica · Apr 23, 2011

Bayonetwork said:
A related question....do LORs from physicians we shadow have any benefit if the physician works at that school (like a teaching hospital affiliated with the school)? A physician I shadowed actually was a preceptor for the medical students rotating through his specialty so I was actually shadowing him and following this group of medical students around. He was not affiliated with the medical school in any other way but oversaw this group of students and graded or approved them on their rotation performance.
The experience was certainly much more impacting than just the typical shadowing experience.

Or what about a doctor who has a son or daughter currently at the medical school you are applying to? I shadowed another physician who's daughter is currently in medical school in the same state so I was provided with a lot of good info from him and also got to meet his daughter who showed me around the school.

Mostly Im wondering how I should ask the physicians to include this in their LORs without it sounding too contrived?

What matters the most is for the letter-writer to be able to comment specifically on your suitability for medical school and a career in medicine. These physicians you shadowed would at minimum be able to comment on your interest in medicine, and if they got to know you well enough, also on aspects of your personal character, career goals, etc. So if you and the second doc had a lot of discussions about your career goals, why you want to go to medical school, etc. and you feel like he knows you pretty well, he'd be a good person to ask. The fact that his daughter is a med student is really not relevant to your app. If you ask the first doc, I don't think it's essential for him to mention that you were shadowing him while he was precepting medical students in his LOR. That *is* the kind of thing that might be worth bringing up on your AMCAS though, assuming it played a role in helping you decide to go to medical school. Sounds like it was a good experience for you.

What you should make sure to do when you ask for LORs is to ask for a strong LOR. I'd even use that word "strong" when you ask. Also, give the writer a copy of your CV and AMCAS essay, and explain that you need them to comment on your suitability for medicine. The more specific they can be, the better. As I mentioned previously, a lukewarm and generic LOR is not very helpful.

Bayonetwork · Apr 25, 2011

QofQuimica said:
What matters the most is for the letter-writer to be able to comment specifically on your suitability for medical school and a career in medicine. These physicians you shadowed would at minimum be able to comment on your interest in medicine, and if they got to know you well enough, also on aspects of your personal character, career goals, etc. So if you and the second doc had a lot of discussions about your career goals, why you want to go to medical school, etc. and you feel like he knows you pretty well, he'd be a good person to ask. The fact that his daughter is a med student is really not relevant to your app. If you ask the first doc, I don't think it's essential for him to mention that you were shadowing him while he was precepting medical students in his LOR. That *is* the kind of thing that might be worth bringing up on your AMCAS though, assuming it played a role in helping you decide to go to medical school. Sounds like it was a good experience for you.

What you should make sure to do when you ask for LORs is to ask for a strong LOR. I'd even use that word "strong" when you ask. Also, give the writer a copy of your CV and AMCAS essay, and explain that you need them to comment on your suitability for medicine. The more specific they can be, the better. As I mentioned previously, a lukewarm and generic LOR is not very helpful.

Thank you for the reply. To clarify, both docs know me well and I have had a sustained relationship with them through shadowing many hours and meeting with them on many occasions to keep them updated and just to hang out. My question should have been worded more specific in asking that while they will be writing "strong" LORs, should this info be included?

I believe it should given the one doc knows the caliber of medical students he is precepting and has a good idea of the student body profiles/mission and how I might fit in. In addition it provided me with an opportunity to associate with the MS3s on rotation and hear what they had to say about rotations, the school, etc. and see first hand what was required of them during rotation.

The other doc I shadowed whos daughter goes to our state med school knew a lot about the program as he keeps close contact with his daughter. This enabled me to hear about the school from his perspective as a physician who has been through med school and one who hears first hand from his daughter all about it. Plus I met her and she gave me tons of valuable insight while touring around the school. Again the emphasis is that he has an understanding of the program and the student body profile/mission and he can contemplate how I might be a good fit based on that.

Bottom line...I feel like including this could be very relevant but didnt want have something that sounds contrived.

I also just realized after writing this that my LOR can necessarily be school specific if it goes to more than one school Doh!

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