Nitrous?

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RxBoy

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One thing I used early in residency but haven't had the courage to use lately is nitrous. I had a week of just bad outcomes with it... Couple of outpatient ladies woke up with serious N/V even after preemptive decadron/zofran. One lady woke up with her head spinning for like a hour. Another high as a kite. Nitrous can have a lot of benefits (nitrous blend for those vasodilated hypotensive patients, getting patients deep quick, ect.).

Without refrencing the Enigma trial, anyone still use it routinely (granted no contraindications)? Or is it as ancient as halothane?

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Without refrencing the Enigma trial, anyone still use it routinely (granted no contraindications)? Or is it as ancient as halothane?

Um...yes I'm willing to bet a lot of people on this board and out in the real world use a crapload of nitrous. It's cheap. It's fast. It spares your volatile for quicker wakeup and hopefully less hypotension. It has analgesic properties. It allows you to get all your volatile off for nice nitrous-narcotic wakeups.

I think the biggest issues, other than the obvious contraindications, are that it limits your FiO2. I routinely run 50-70% nitrous, but if I can't for whatever reason, I'll run 60-80% O2.
 
Hate it and almost never use it. Only 2 times it ever gets used are peds inhalation inductions and old nearly dead people that don't tolerate much anesthetic.

It works well, but the side effects are common and annoying.

PONV - no thanks. It's a big deal and nitrous is the biggest offender that we have control over. Waking the patient up 5 minutes faster in the room to have 10%+ spend an extra 2 hours in PACU puking doesn't help anything. I'll take people out intubated to PACU and pull the tube there before using nitrous to try to speed things up.

Bone marrow suppression is a real issue. For most people it's no big deal. But for the not healthy folks having major surgery, helping keep their bone marrow from working well postop to produce RBCs and WBCs isn't high on my list of priorities.

If people know what they are doing, waking somebody up from volatile anesthetic or propofol tiva is not difficult. Sometimes you get burned and waste a handful of minutes (5-10) here or there waiting for somebody to wake up, but it is no big deal. And I'm in a busy private practice, not academia land with no sense of what time is worth.
 
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I think Nitrous Oxide has a very good indication in C sections under GA where you don't want to use too much Vapor so the uterus will still have a decent tone.
Also I think that the fear of Nitrous that is currently being taught to residents is exaggerated and unnecessary.
 
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I think Nitrous Oxide has a very good indication in C sections under GA where you don't want to use too much Vapor so the uterus will still have a decent tone.
Also I think that the fear of Nitrous that is currently being taught to residents is exaggerated and unnecessary.

Fearing nitrous is definitely not necessary. Understanding why it is rarely the best choice for an anesthetic is important.


But yes, emergency c-sections are another good use for it when you combine the high risk for awareness with the volatile agent relaxing the uterus.
 
I use it to prevent/ minimize PONV in individuals with a history of PONV and no history of motion sickness. I am of the opinion that it is individuals who are susceptible to motion sickness who get PONV from nitrous. Individuals who are susceptible to PONV from volatile exposure but are not prone to motion sickness do not get PONV from nitrous. I believe that is why the studies have struggled to define whether it is a trigger or not and why the results of the studies vary so much.

I also use it for OB. I stopped using it for peds inductions as I can't tell a difference in speed. I just crank the vaporizer to 8 and oxygen to 5 LPM for a minute or so before induction. Those kiddos don't know what hit em.

- pod
 
I use it to prevent/ minimize PONV in individuals with a history of PONV and no history of motion sickness. I am of the opinion that it is individuals who are susceptible to motion sickness who get PONV from nitrous. Individuals who are susceptible to PONV from volatile exposure but are not prone to motion sickness do not get PONV from nitrous. I believe that is why the studies have struggled to define whether it is a trigger or not and why the results of the studies vary so much.

I also use it for OB. I stopped using it for peds inductions as I can't tell a difference in speed. I just crank the vaporizer to 8 and oxygen to 5 LPM for a minute or so before induction. Those kiddos don't know what hit em.

- pod

:thumbup:
 
One thing I used early in residency but haven't had the courage to use lately is nitrous. I had a week of just bad outcomes with it... Couple of outpatient ladies woke up with serious N/V even after preemptive decadron/zofran. One lady woke up with her head spinning for like a hour. Another high as a kite. Nitrous can have a lot of benefits (nitrous blend for those vasodilated hypotensive patients, getting patients deep quick, ect.).

Without refrencing the Enigma trial, anyone still use it routinely (granted no contraindications)? Or is it as ancient as halothane?


Just curious, why didn't you give her some droperidol - which has the best NNT both for prevention and treatment?
 
Hate it and almost never use it. Only 2 times it ever gets used are peds inhalation inductions and old nearly dead people that don't tolerate much anesthetic.

It works well, but the side effects are common and annoying.

PONV - no thanks. It's a big deal and nitrous is the biggest offender that we have control over. Waking the patient up 5 minutes faster in the room to have 10%+ spend an extra 2 hours in PACU puking doesn't help anything. I'll take people out intubated to PACU and pull the tube there before using nitrous to try to speed things up.

Bone marrow suppression is a real issue. For most people it's no big deal. But for the not healthy folks having major surgery, helping keep their bone marrow from working well postop to produce RBCs and WBCs isn't high on my list of priorities.

If people know what they are doing, waking somebody up from volatile anesthetic or propofol tiva is not difficult. Sometimes you get burned and waste a handful of minutes (5-10) here or there waiting for somebody to wake up, but it is no big deal. And I'm in a busy private practice, not academia land with no sense of what time is worth.

Nitrous always gets a bad rap in PONV, and I think the downsides of using it are significantly exaggerated. I honestly don't see a difference in PONV rates whether it's used or not. There are a subset of patients that use of nitrous is a problem, but there are also lots of different causes of PONV. I see plenty of patients in the PACU that haven't had N2O and still have PONV. Some people are going to puke regardless of what you give or don't give. And unfortunately, a large number of risk factors for PONV are beyond our control - female gender, obesity, type of surgery, etc.

We have much better luck in controlling PONV by liberal use of anti-emetic "cocktails" - most of our patients get famotidine and metoclopramide pre-operatively, and most get some combination (or all of them) of ondansetron, diphenhydramine, and dexamethasone. In addition, I make sure my patients are well hydrated before they leave the OR, and don't sit them up too early in the PACU.

The bone marrow studies I've read do show there is a problem, but usually only with repeated or lengthy exposures. One of the studies looked at continuous exposure for 24 hours - hmmmm, not that clinically significant in my community hospital practice.

In the end, it's more of a "different strokes for different folks" kind of thing. Until a better body of evidence surfaces that nitrous is evil, as it did for halothane and methoxyflurane (I used both in my youth) it's widespread use is likely to continue.
 
Just curious, why didn't you give her some droperidol - which has the best NNT both for prevention and treatment?

Man I wish we had it available - it hasn't even been on our hospital formulary since the black-box warnings came out.
 
most of our patients get famotidine and metoclopramide pre-operatively

Why? did they also get bicitra? Never heard of giving most of patients this regime, maybe a rare patient who has reflux and gastroparesis. I dont think reglan does anything useful for PONV besides make awake people "on edge".

Getting back to the nirtous debate. In general only 2 places i use it are in OB for General C-sections, and in Peds. In the calm kid i find they wake up better if i "steal" the induction with nitrous to start. No data on this but just a personal feeling.
 
Also I think that the fear of Nitrous that is currently being taught to residents is exaggerated and unnecessary.

I agree completely. No other drug that we have available has the years (167 and counting) or number of exposures (likely in the billions). Our experience with nitrous is unparalleled.

I use it in cranis, spines at 50% + 0.5 MAC volatile. I'll go to 70% and shut off the volatile agent when closing starts. Consistently brisk wakeups without having to use a drug that causes hyperalgesia (remi). Its NMDA antagonism is also beneficial. I'll use high flow nitrous (7LPM with 3 LPM of oxygen) for open abdominal operations once the fascia is closed. Again, fast wakeups. Nothing beats the smoothness of an opioid/nitrous wakeup.

As for PONV, the avoidance of nitrous is associated with a relative risk reduction of only 12%. The use of TIVA instead of inhaled anesthetic only reduces risk by 19%. The avoidance of general anesthesia altogether results in a 9 fold decrease (and that's what we should really be doing if we can). This is found in the SAMBA guidelines for PONV.

I put together a flyer that was going to be part of a QA project during residency that never got off the ground on this. If anyone wants the full size PDF just PM.
 

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Nitrous always gets a bad rap in PONV, and I think the downsides of using it are significantly exaggerated. I honestly don't see a difference in PONV rates whether it's used or not.

I agree, never had a problem with ponv with nitrous
 
I try to avoid it in patients with known CAD, who fall into higher risk categories of perioperative MI. I do this mainly because of ENIGMA. Im not proud to say it. But I cant follow every patient out for 6 months and verify they arent having MIs, so thats what I have to go on. I will appreciate ENIGMA2, assuming its put together better than 1.

It really is a great anesthetic, and even though I like etomidate in certain situations, we should probably completely abandon etomidate before we abandon nitrous
 
I try to avoid it in patients with known CAD, who fall into higher risk categories of perioperative MI. I do this mainly because of ENIGMA. Im not proud to say it. But I cant follow every patient out for 6 months and verify they arent having MIs, so thats what I have to go on. I will appreciate ENIGMA2, assuming its put together better than 1.

It really is a great anesthetic, and even though I like etomidate in certain situations, we should probably completely abandon etomidate before we abandon nitrous

I say we probably should not abandon anything :D
 
The 12% reduction with nitrous doesn't surprise me. I use it on almost all my cases where there isn't a contraindication.

wow, only a 19% reduction with Propofol? We have a stubborn plastic surgeon who always requests PPF drip plus nitrous.

At my place, we give reglan/pepcid to every single patient that doesn't have a contraindication. Since we take over each other's cases, I'm stuck going along with this costly plan.
 
I use it when I have a specific reason - GA sections, cranis, peds induction, need for smoothest possible wake-up with a contraindication to deep extubation, non-triggering anesthetic, buy more time during an unanticipated intern closure...

But most of the time I don't feel like it adds much and I don't use it. Sevo or Des come off fast and aren't that hard to time with practice. With good titration of opioid, I don't even have that many rough emergences. Closed circuit anesthesia with des is probably cheaper than sevo with N2O at fresh gas flow 1-2 L/min.

I agree that the Enigma trial was flawed, but I don't think it's implausible that methionine synthase inhibition (which is irreversible and requires resynthesis of the enzyme) could cause problems in a small minority of patients that had previously been missed because it's rare and we weren't looking for it in a sufficiently-powered way. I think it's just enough of a possibility to justify avoiding N2O when there is no reason to use it, and not enough of a concern to not use N2O when there is a reason to use it.
 
I use nitrous sometimes for the chronic pain patients. Remember nitrous has some NMDA antagonist properties in conjunction with Ketamine drip. Their is a study out there that is looking at nitrous in conjunction with ketamine in the chronic pain population. As far as using it as a bridge to wake patients up faster by allowing second gas effect to take the agent off quicker and allowing a bridge of anesthesia until extubation I do not use it anymore. My wake ups using sevo and iso are just as fast.
 
wow, only a 19% reduction with Propofol? We have a stubborn plastic surgeon who always requests PPF drip plus nitrous.

I'm not surprised that some surgeons have fixed delusions. I get a bit nervous every time I do a TIVA, although adding nitrous will reduce that risk. 2 weeks before finishing my fellowship another fellow did a TIVA for PONV prevention and the patient had awareness (that's with the BIS on too).
 
Just curious, why didn't you give her some droperidol - which has the best NNT both for prevention and treatment?

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Sorry dude can't argue with Miller. Although I use droperidol for rescue if I used decadron and zofran (both at 4 mg). I know the whole droperidol QT prolong at small doses is a crock of ****, but that dysphoria/agitated side effect I get every now and then is just not worth it. I used to use it religiously in routine c-sections during those slow OB closures to shut the mother up thanks to its sedative side effects. But every now and then I would give 1.25 mg and minutes later the patient would totally freak out so I would have to hit them with versed.
 
Also I think that the fear of Nitrous that is currently being taught to residents is exaggerated and unnecessary.

i disagree. the enigma study is compelling, and the benefit/risk ratio is not favorable - there are many superior choices.

except for kiddos and preggos and the (mostly) dead.
 
i disagree. the enigma study is compelling, and the benefit/risk ratio is not favorable - there are many superior choices.

except for kiddos and preggos and the (mostly) dead.

The Enigma study has issues and N2O has been around for a very long time, so You don't have to use it on every patient but just don't drop it completely because you never got to use it enough during your training.
 
i disagree. the enigma study is compelling, and the benefit/risk ratio is not favorable .


I stopped using it on everybody a few years back, when I was a resident, after the first preliminary data from enigma came out. I got my ass chewed by an attending who didn't keep up with literature and believed n2o was the next best thing after sliced bread.

I got my ass chewed for many other things during residency. Using morphine, using sufenta, inducing with a small amount of propofol..... using thiopenthal....

You name it, someone screamed at me for their inadequacy. I'm still traumatized.
 
I stopped using it on everybody a few years back, when I was a resident, after the first preliminary data from enigma came out. I got my ass chewed by an attending who didn't keep up with literature and believed n2o was the next best thing after sliced bread.

I got my ass chewed for many other things during residency. Using morphine, using sufenta, inducing with a small amount of propofol..... using thiopenthal....

You name it, someone screamed at me for their inadequacy. I'm still traumatized.

Ah, that's really a sad story...
Did you talk to someone about your traumatic experience?
:smuggrin:
 
Use it all the time at the end of a case to get them up quick or if the patient can't tolerate volatile. Literature says it has alot of drawbacks: PONV, poor wound healing, increased free radicals, ect. In my opinion and experience, like anything else, its great in moderation. When using nitrous, I avoid alot of narcotic and hit them with two or three antiemetics. If its a case where there is a high likelihood of PONV, I won't use it and instead I will switch to des and go low flow to wake them quick. I hate des though, I have had more people wake up combative and insane after des than anything else.
 
The Enigma study has issues and N2O has been around for a very long time, so You don't have to use it on every patient but just don't drop it completely because you never got to use it enough during your training.

all studies have issues - what specifically are you referring to?

lots of things were around for very long times (this is the argument of someone who has also been around for a very long time :D (said with due respect) - and then found to be harmful, and better solutions came along..

i used nitrous often in residency, and it is a great drug for the right situation, but as an attending i use it rarely and try to avoid it if possible - there are far better ways to do things now.
 
I stopped using it on everybody a few years back, when I was a resident, after the first preliminary data from enigma came out. I got my ass chewed by an attending who didn't keep up with literature and believed n2o was the next best thing after sliced bread.

I got my ass chewed for many other things during residency. Using morphine, using sufenta, inducing with a small amount of propofol..... using thiopenthal....

You name it, someone screamed at me for their inadequacy. I'm still traumatized.

:(

An attending I know let me in on a secret that made her a favorite when she was a resident. She made a table of every attending's preferences and dislikes so that she tailored the anesthetic management to each attending's likings.

I've resigned myself from doing this, because I have my own OCD demons to overcome.
 
I'm gonna cut thru the chase.

THE JURY IS UNDECIDED ON N20.

Used it alot as a resident.

My practice uses it minimally, if it all current day.

Ok, ok, ok, ok, (..a Joe Peschi reference)

I think as SCIENTISTS...sometimes...

like NOW

WITH THIS NITROUS CONVERSATION...we

HOLD ON TO SOMETHING.


That we've learned.

And

Don't wanna let it go.

SEVOFLURANE

has changed that.

To be honest, I've got mixed emotions about

DESFLURANE.

Man..we all have opinions of what should be done.

Which is

COOL.

Our business can be done "RIGHT" sooooo many ways.

My practice does it with

SEVO IN OXYGEN.



Des has fallen by the wayside.

SO HAS NITROUS.

Not needed anymore since our newly available volatile agents sport

REALLY COOL

blood/gas

partition coefficients.
 
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I hate des though, I have had more people wake up combative and insane after des than anything else.

I use des almost exclusively and have never experienced this.

Arch, i meant it's a nice additive to go lower on the volatile.
 
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I use des almost exclusively and have never experienced this.

Arch i meant it's a nice additive to go lower on the volatile.

ok, just wondering.

I also see people wake up crazy with des, particularly the teenager types, but then again they seem to always wake up crazy
 
I have only used des on one case so far and the young guy went bonkers, nearly standing up on the gurney after we moved him over. Our PD likes to use iso/nitrous, and also believes that nitrous really only affects the motion sickness types.
 
Enigma isn't the only study questioning the routine use of Nitrous oxide:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17667565

I do agree Enigma II should provide more answers on Nitrous; however, Based on the data such far many experts believe the avoidance of Nitrous Oxide for high risk patients and long cases is both prudent and wise. That said, I still use nitrous from time to time on short cases (ASA 1 and ASA 2) and at the end (last 15-20 minutes) to help speed up wake-up/decrease room turn-over.
 
SEVOFLURANE

has changed that.

To be honest, I've got mixed emotions about

DESFLURANE.

I'm with Jet. I love sevo. Iso is nice too if you have a really long case and want to save the hospital some money. I love Iso\Sevo wake ups, they are so smooth. If you know how and when to dial down your vapors, emergence is almost instant if you do it right. Iso is a bit trickier but you have a lot of leeway if you dial it down early because patients won't be bucking for awhile. I truly hate Des, I stopped using it 6 months ago. I don't even care if they are super obese, its just a dirty volatile. I mean the pungency is so strong it causes sympathetic surge during initial maintenance.N2O is dirty too. Gut insufflation for abdominal cases, risk of belly fire in laproscopic procedures (although extremely rare), N20 seeking its way into your ET cuff, ect.

And its not the incidence of patients that get N/V with N2O that I hate, its the severity when they get it. Its the worst I have seen in adults (I haven't done my peds rotation yet).

Lastly...I always use air for a FiO2<50% with stable saturation due to absorption atelectasis. That N2 left over in those alveoli keep them from collapsing. I may be wrong here but O2 and N20 would seem to collapse alveoli much quicker because both are so readily absorbed. This would be a problem if you are only using it for emergence, that's the time you need as little atelectasis as possible especially since N20 creates a diffusion hypoxia.
 
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I'm willing to bet a lot of people on this board and out in the real world use a crapload of nitrous.... I routinely run 50-70% nitrous

Yes!


I think that the fear of Nitrous that is currently being taught to residents is exaggerated and unnecessary.

Testify!

Nitrous always gets a bad rap in PONV...
In the end, it's more of a "different strokes for different folks" kind of thing.

Preach it!

I like nitrous in frail patients who won't tolerate 1 mac of volatile.

Amen!

+Analgesia

Word!
 
I'm with Jet. I love sevo. Iso is nice too if you have a really long case and want to save the hospital some money. I love Iso\Sevo wake ups, they are so smooth. If you know how and when to dial down your vapors, emergence is almost instant if you do it right. Iso is a bit trickier but you have a lot of leeway if you dial it down early because patients won't be bucking for awhile. I truly hate Des, I stopped using it 6 months ago. I don't even care if they are super obese, its just a dirty volatile. I mean the pungency is so strong it causes sympathetic surge during initial maintenance..

To each their own, but it's worth pointing out that the pungency of des isn't what causes the (brief, and usually overstated) sympathetic surge. That's just an inherent property of the gas. Pungency bothers awake people, but not anesthetized people. Hence, running des in an LMA is no problem. Also, I don't mind a bit of sympathetic activity during the time when BP usually sags, which is the time between intubation and incision.

I think desflurane is a superior anesthetic in most ways to sevo. I believe it's significantly faster. You can make sevo wakeups fast, but it involves turning it down early/adding N20/generalized fussing. You can pretty much run a MAC of des up until skin sutures are going in, turn it off and have them wake up lickety split.

I've never sat in the OR waiting for the last .2 MAC to blow off with des, ever. I've definitely done that with sevo.

You can run low flows/closed circuit flows with des, which conserves heat (and anesthetic), and serves as a poor man's cardiac output monitor when looking at the ET concentration.

I also like that the des vaporizer has a "fill me up please" alarm, but that's just frosting.

I can see not using it in a very sick heart or someone who won't tolerate even a few minutes of sympathetic surge when you jack up the concentration, or in a terrible asthmatic since sevo is probably a better bronchodilator, but all in all, I think its speed makes it superior.

But again, to each their own. Use what works for you.

As for nitrous, since there's a chance (however slight) of it causing some increased long term cardiac morbidity, I avoid it as much as possible. If granny won't tolerate much volatile, I'll put a BIS on her and turn down the vaporizer beyond what would otherwise be my comfort level. If BIS is 60ish and she's still hypotensive, I'll use nitrous. That and the rare GA c-section. That's really about it. I try to avoid polypharmacy in general, and avoiding N20 falls in line with that.
 
Love Des. I pretty much exclusively use it for my longer cases.

Following induction, I Max out the Sevo with flows of 5 LPM until inspired reads 8% (about 6 breaths) to load the circuit, then turn flows down to 0.2 O2 and 0.2 air and crank the Des. This helps to minimize the coughing and since the Des comes on slowly there is minimal sympathetic surge. By the time the drapes are on the Des is usually 4-5 and I dose my first fentanyl 30 sec before incision.

In the last five to ten minutes of the case I turn off the Des. Crank my flows to 2-4 LPM O2 and turn on Sevo to 2. Get them spontaneously breathing and titrate opiate to EtCO2. This smooths out the wakeup.

- pod
 
To each their own, but it's worth pointing out that the pungency of des isn't what causes the (brief, and usually overstated) sympathetic surge.

I've hooked up a couple of trached patients to the ventilator and cranked up the des: no problem. The look on the face of people seeing me do this: priceless.

Then again i've never noticed a sympathetic surge with des but i never saturate the circuit super quick. I think it's more related to patients being light at incision.
 
Love Des. I pretty much exclusively use it for my longer cases.

Following induction, I Max out the Sevo with flows of 5 LPM until inspired reads 8% (about 6 breaths) to load the circuit, then turn flows down to 0.2 O2 and 0.2 air and crank the Des. This helps to minimize the coughing and since the Des comes on slowly there is minimal sympathetic surge. By the time the drapes are on the Des is usually 4-5 and I dose my first fentanyl 30 sec before incision.

In the last five to ten minutes of the case I turn off the Des. Crank my flows to 2-4 LPM O2 and turn on Sevo to 2. Get them spontaneously breathing and titrate opiate to EtCO2. This smooths out the wakeup.

- pod

DUDE....

that's a lotta work man.

Why not just use Sevo SKIN TO SKIN?
 
To each their own, but it's worth pointing out that the pungency of des isn't what causes the (brief, and usually overstated) sympathetic surge. That's just an inherent property of the gas.


"The profound cardiovascular stimulation induced by rapid increases in the concentration of desflurane is due to activation of tracheopulmonary RARs." (RARs = rapid adapting stretch receptors)

"RARs, also known as irritant receptors, lie between airway epithelial cells and are stimulated by dust, cold air, and other noxious airway irritants. These receptors initially discharge vigorously and cause bronchoconstriction and hyperpnea, but their responses are extinguished rapidly.[147] RARs in the bronchi are more chemosensitive than those located in the more proximal airway but will also cause coughing, mucus secretion, bronchoconstriction, and laryngospasm."

Miller 7th edition - Chapter 22


"Rapid increases in the inspired desflurane concentration above 1 MAC may be associated with further transient increases in heart rate and arterial pressure as a result of activation of the sympathetic nervous system. Interestingly, similar increases in heart rate also occur when the inspired isoflurane concentration is increased rapidly. The cardiovascular stimulation induced by rapid increases in desflurane or isoflurane concentration in humans resulted from activation of tracheopulmonary and systemic receptors and was attenuated by pretreatment with &#946;1-adrenoceptor antagonists, &#945;2-adrenoceptor agonists, or opioids. In contrast to the findings with isoflurane and desflurane, sevoflurane did not alter heart rate or cause cardiovascular stimulation during rapid increases in anesthetic concentration in humans."

Miller 7th edition - chapter 23
 

"The profound cardiovascular stimulation induced by rapid increases in the concentration of desflurane is due to activation of tracheopulmonary RARs." (RARs = rapid adapting stretch receptors)

"RARs, also known as irritant receptors, lie between airway epithelial cells and are stimulated by dust, cold air, and other noxious airway irritants. These receptors initially discharge vigorously and cause bronchoconstriction and hyperpnea, but their responses are extinguished rapidly.[147] RARs in the bronchi are more chemosensitive than those located in the more proximal airway but will also cause coughing, mucus secretion, bronchoconstriction, and laryngospasm."

Miller 7th edition - Chapter 22


"Rapid increases in the inspired desflurane concentration above 1 MAC may be associated with further transient increases in heart rate and arterial pressure as a result of activation of the sympathetic nervous system. Interestingly, similar increases in heart rate also occur when the inspired isoflurane concentration is increased rapidly. The cardiovascular stimulation induced by rapid increases in desflurane or isoflurane concentration in humans resulted from activation of tracheopulmonary and systemic receptors and was attenuated by pretreatment with &#946;1-adrenoceptor antagonists, &#945;2-adrenoceptor agonists, or opioids. In contrast to the findings with isoflurane and desflurane, sevoflurane did not alter heart rate or cause cardiovascular stimulation during rapid increases in anesthetic concentration in humans."

Miller 7th edition - chapter 23

In my limited experience, I've used desflurane frequently. I have seen increased sympathetic outflow (that I could blame on des) once. I feel that this is one of those things that might affect a (small) certain population, but not everyone.

There is nothing better than a 5 hour des case where they can answer your questions as soon as the ETT comes out.

Beav
 
DUDE....

that's a lotta work man.

Why not just use Sevo SKIN TO SKIN?


:laugh:Yeah, that whole extra 30 seconds of work is a real killer. I might even have to go on disability for the repetitive stress injury I am incurring from the extra dial turns, but what else am I going to do with my time? :laugh:

Like I said, I only use Des on long cases. For short cases, say under two hours, I just use Sevo like you said.

In Seattle, I used Des straight up because I didn't have problems with airway irritability, maybe once in three years. For whatever reason, I get a lot more airway irritability here so I added in the Sevo to minimize coughing etc. I don't know why we see so much more airway irritability from Des here (elevation, humidity, more underlying RAD, ???), but I am not the only one who noticed the increase when moving here from another place.

Ok so it ain't Zippyesque drop a mixed 50 stick-o-pent-fent-sux tube straight to nurse schmoozing easy, but I don't have much nurse schmoozing left in me and it sure gives me a lot of lattitude on the wakeup... Sevo/ narc smooth with Des speed is the bomb...

I do look Zippyesque when I pull my favorite party trick. Right as the drape comes down from a long case I lean over and say the patient's name. He opens his eyes. I say dude, there is a tube in your throat, do you want it out? He shakes his head yes. I say then reach up and pull it out. He reaches up and pulls it out. I only pull it off successfully 1/3 tries, but I am sure I can boost that to 2/3 before I retire. :cool:


- pod
 
Well the literature is more in favor of a vagal inhibition than a sympathetic activation.

Although this is pretty much a moot point....

I did a quick literature search and found only 1 such study in the European Journal. However, I have found dozens of studies supporting sympathetic surge. So I am not sure about using the word MORE.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7992902

"Without pretreatment, the increase to 8% desflurane increased heart rate (from 57 +/- 2 to 118 +/- 6 beats/min at peak, mean +/- standard error) and mean arterial blood pressure (from 66 +/- 2 to 118 +/- 5 mmHg). At the time of peak hemodynamic changes (within 1-2 min of the increase in desflurane concentration), plasma epinephrine and norepinephrine concentrations increased (from 22 +/- 6 to 339 +/- 83 pg/ml and from 205 +/- 19 to 283 +/- 30 pg/ml, respectively). Fentanyl 1.5 and 4.5 micrograms/kg attenuated the heart rate increase by 61 +/- 14% and 70 +/- 7% and the mean arterial blood pressure increase by 31 +/- 16% and 46 +/- 11% but did not alter the epinephrine or norepinephrine response at the time of peak cardiovascular changes. Esmolol attenuated the heart rate response but no other response. Clonidine attenuated all responses except that of norepinephrine and also caused postanesthesia sedation."

Clonidine and esmolol blunting the response, as well as increase catecholamine levels seems sympathetic to me.
 
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