Medical School Admissions: How can I improve my chances?

oxeye · Mar 27, 2007

Welcome to the new Medical School Admissions: How can I improve my chances? thread.

What is the purpose of this thread?
The sole purpose of this thread is to help students answer the following question:

How can I improve my chances of admission to medical school?

You are welcome to post SPECIFIC questions asking our mentors for recommendations regarding ways to improve your medical school application.

From this point forward (6/9/07), this will be the only topic addressed in this thread.

Please understand - this thread is not for posting every detail of your application or to ask our mentors how likely you are to receive an acceptance to medical school.

Please do not post "what are my chances" threads or your entire life story.
Brevity is your friend. Your post is much more likely to be answered if your question is brief and to the point.

Inappropriate posts WILL be deleted or moved.
Thank you for your cooperation.

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS - READ THIS FIRST

Getting ready to apply:

Where can I get advice about the MCAT?
Try the SDN MCAT Forum.

About your application:

Do I need to list every college course I have ever taken on my application?
Yes. Every college-level course you have taken needs to be listed on your AMCAS or AACOMAS.

I need help with my personal statement.
There is a great thread with personal statement advice in the pre-allo forum.

Will the mentors read my personal statement?
No. We have writing mentors who will provide technical advice and critique short passages. We aren't able to offer full-service editing for personal statements, so please don't post them on the Mentor Forum. Any personal statements posted will be deleted.

How do adcoms look at premeds volunteering in a developing country as part of a medical mission?
Tildy has written an excellent synopsis of this issue. Medical volunteering

Does a history of institutional or legal action on my record virtually assure me of not being accepted? How should I handle this? Ignore it or write about it in my essays? Ask Tildy the Dog

How can I get help entering my work/activities into AMCAS? Check out this fantastic thread in Pre-Allo first: AMCAS Work/Activities

About the Mentor Forum:

Is this a good place for a "what are my chances" post?
It really isn't. This is the place for brief, specific questions. Our mentors are not able to evaluate your application or assess your chances for admission to any given school. Posts misplaced in this thread asking "what are my chances?" will be moved to existing threads:

Pre-allopathic: What are my Chances/Where to Apply?
Pre-osteopathic: What are my chances?

Why can't the Adcom members answer my WAMC post?
Tildy has posted an excellent answer to this question. Click to visit Tildy the Dog.

Who will be answering my question?
Questions in this thread will be answered by members of medical school admissions committees (students, faculty and staff) and by medical students, residents or physicians who may share their experiences with the admissions process. You may review the credentials of any mentor by viewing their "Welcome" post.

Wow, this thread is long! I don't want to read it all but what if my question has already been answered?
We'd love it if you checked the table of contents in post #3 before posting. You might just find the answer to your question and save yourself the trouble.

oxeye · Mar 27, 2007

Several Admissions Committee members and other SDN'ers contributed a lot of time to two threads in the pre-allopathic forums. Although the identities of the posters giving advice in these two threads are NOT verified (as opposed to the mentor forum) there is still a lot of information to glean from them.

ADCOMS: Semi-Solicited Advice [Part I]

ADCOMS: Semi-Solicited Advice [Part II]

Tildy's Picks: Answers to very common questions

Your application
What do Adcoms look for in an applicant?
Shadowing, volunteering and patient contact
How do I arrange shadowing and clinical activities?
Including family information in your application
Volunteering vs. paid work experience
What about research?
"What are my chances?" questions and explaining past deficiencies

Stats, Stats, Stats
Is August too late to submit my MCAT scores?
How important is the verbal section of the MCAT?
What is the impact of a low GPA?

Your undergraduate career
Does where I did my undergraduate work matter to the Adcom?
How do grades from different institutions compare? How do Adcoms view military service?
Can I do my pre-reqs at a Community College?
How do Adcoms view universities and community colleges?
Engineering major, interested in MD/MBA

At your interview
Strong Opinions: express with caution
Expressing yourself well during the interview: practice makes perfect

Reapplicant Issues
I'm reapplying. Should I re-write my PS?
Can I turn down an offer of admission and then reapply?
I got into a "lower-ranked school. Should I reapply and try for a more prestigous med school?

oxeye · Mar 27, 2007

Table of Contents

Current through post #258

Grades and Prerequisites
8, 9, 10, 13, 16, 17, 20, 21, 24, 26, 31, 32, 35, 36, 37, 40, 41, 42, 45, 47, 49, 53, 57, 64, 72, 73, 79, 82, 86, 89, 90, 92, 93, 100, 101, 105, 121, 138, 145, 161, 166, 167, 172, 174, 177, 187, 191, 194, 195, 199, 205, 210, 213, 218, 219, 220, 226, 230, 236, 245, 246, 250, 254, 257

MCAT
23, 24, 26, 28, 34, 43, 55, 70, 78, 79, 80, 83, 94, 97, 107, 113, 114, 115, 119, 137, 139, 151, 154, 155, 177, 191, 193, 195, 200, 212, 217, 222, 223, 226, 237, 247, 248, 254

Volunteering/Extra Curricular Activites/Work Experience/Clinical Experience/Research
11, 14, 18, 25, 27, 29, 30, 34, 37, 39, 57, 60, 69, 71, 78, 85, 99, 103, 107, 109, 112, 114, 116, 128, 134, 144, 147, 148, 153, 159, 163, 168, 172, 178, 184, 189, 198, 202, 204, 205, 215, 229, 231, 242, 244, 246, 251

Application Timelines/Choosing Schools/General ways to improve application
15, 22, 38, 46, 54, 56, 64, 68, 69, 77, 84, 104, 108, 110, 111, 120, 121, 122, 123, 129, 130, 133, 136, 140, 152, 156, 165, 169, 171, 181, 182, 208, 217, 221, 223, 238, 249, 253

Letters of Recommendation
11, 61, 62, 67, 124, 176, 205, 206, 207, 214, 215, 216, 232

Interviews
12, 14, 102, 135, 141, 158, 234

Personal Statement
14, 58, 65, 66, 91, 96, 98, 102, 105, 118, 142, 143, 147, 167, 173

AMCAS/Secondary Specific Questions
70, 75, 87, 92, 106, 117, 134, 144, 190, 196, 199, 224, 227, 244

Waitlists
19, 74, 126, 131

Transferring While in Medical School
36, 81

Choosing a Major/Graduate Course of Study
27, 37, 114, 159, 162, 192, 228

Does Undergraduate University Matter?
33, 37, 41, 49, 50, 52, 76, 105, 112, 210, 258

Reapplicants
44, 48, 51, 81, 88, 91, 96, 125, 134, 142, 143, 186, 188, 197, 201

Early Decision/ Early Assurance
62, 63, 107, 127, 132

Non-traditional Student Questions
203, 211, 249

SpongeBobDrPants · Apr 8, 2007

Hi there,

Welcome to the medical school admissions thread! This is the place for you to ask questions about the application/interview process and find out what med schools might be looking for in an applicant.

A little about me --- I'm a second-year med student and a member of my school's admissions committee. I routinely evaluate, interview, and present applicants at admissions committee meetings.

So, start asking questions and I'll do my best to give you a prompt and accurate answer! There will also be other mentors providing advice in this thread.

Graylin · Apr 8, 2007

Hello. I am an Emergency Physician. I served on the Admissions Comm. for 4 years at my medical school. I was also a non-traditional, having worked in a completely unrelated field prior to going to medical school.

Welcome!

Madame · Apr 9, 2007

Hello to all of you. Like Tildy, I am an adcom member at a private, research-oriented medical school. I am not a physician but I am a faculty member in the basic sciences. I look forward to fielding questions from medical school applicants on issues involving the application and interview process.

SpongeBobDrPants · Apr 9, 2007

comoseshama said:
Last semester I got a C+ in Ochem I, this semester I was determined to get better and with a little less than a month til school ends, I am happy to say I have an A in Ochem II.

So, my question is, should I retake Ochem I and get a better grade or should I retake Gen Chem I (B-, then B in gen chem II) all labs were A's.

THANKS!

Hi comoseshama,

The C+ in o-chem will stick out on your transcript --- that would be the best one to retake. The B-/B in your general chemistry classes should be okay as long as the rest of your GPA is strong.

SpongeBobDrPants · Apr 10, 2007

bigchoader said:
Everyone says that C's in Ochem and other tough classes will stick out. Does the opposite effect happen for A's in tough classes, like O chem.

In my experience, no. When I'm interviewing an applicant, I will ask about their Cs --- but not about their As. At admissions meetings, Cs are usually brought up, but not As (except when the applicant has an astronomical GPA). Upward trends are important.

SpongeBobDrPants · Apr 10, 2007

Wackie said:
What would cause an interest in an applicant with a sub par GPA (sub par being 3.0-3.3ish) to the point you would invite them for an interview?

Things that come to mind:
1. Extensive volunteering and/or research experience (above and beyond that of the average applicant)
2. Unique experiences
3) High MCAT score
4) An amazing personal statement
5) Excellent letters of recommendation

Depending on how sub-par the GPA is, the applicant might need to have a few of the above things.

Madame · Apr 10, 2007

JROXZ said:
My GPA will linger at 3.14 (cum laude) +141 credits. Even if I took more courses to raise this influence is meager at best. 141 c's is standard amount for Bio major at UPR-Mayaguez. (Many cs are Grad lvl courses)

I'm currently employed as a research technician at NYUMC-Skirball getting experience and maybe even some publications under my belt.

And.... taking the Kaplan MCAT course (reg. MCAT June 15), networking as a URM with the Latino Health Community in NY, and will possibly be applying to Mt. Sinai's (if PREP-Med is an SMP) program.

I realize it's a tough climb up but I'm willing to take ANY avenue to get into med school in the State of NY or PR. What else can I do?

You seem to be doing all that you can. Good luck!

SpongeBobDrPants · Apr 10, 2007

Chargers said:
Hi Docs, I am also a new member but a long time reader. I have one question for you guys. I need some more shadowing experience, and I don't know how to go about getting one. My question is that do doctors generally accept people calling them or emailing them about shadowing opportunity? And how long is the appropriate amount of time of shadowing before one can ask for a letter of rec? Thanks

Are you at a college with an affiliated medical school? It's pretty easy to find someone to shadow at a teaching hospital. Another option would be to contact your own physician and ask for him/her to recommend any colleagues who would be open to shadowing. Or, if you know any doctors (friends of the family, etc.), you could ask if they'd let you shadow. I wouldn't email or call random doctors out of the blue asking to shadow them. Regarding getting a letter of rec --- the answer is variable. If you're only shadowing once per week, then I'd say you would need to shadow for several months to get a quality letter. If you shadow more frequently, then the doctor will be able to get to know you more quickly. Remember, the goal is to get a STRONG letter, not a lukewarm one!

Doodledog · Apr 11, 2007

holafarita said:
Hi,

i am a re-applicant with a 3.6 from UC Berkeley, an MPH and a 32P on the MCAT. i do policy research, not wet lab research (although i could if i wanted to, i'm just more passionate about public health and social justice). i talk about this stuff on interviews. i have one more interview coming up at UC Irvine (only my second one this year!) and just wanted to know if i should emphasize this passion. i have a lot of different interests (eg, emerging trends in global health) so i can still be myself at an interview emphasizing another part of my personality. what do you think?

i was waitlisted after interviewing at 3 places last year. i know for sure that whatever happens will be the best thing for me, but i want to give my UCI interview my best shot!

thanks for any insight,
holafarita

Hi:

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, but I think it's whether you should talk about "public health and social justice" at an interview. If by this, you mean "should I say that the US does poorly in providing adequate health to the underserved?" then my answer is to be cautious about how you make these statements. In general, interviewees should focus on what they have DONE and what they KNOW about public health, not strong opinions. Now, in an interview, inevitably if someone goes down this road, which they will with you since it's probably in your PS and it's what you've done, they'll ask for opinions. In this case, be careful, the person on the other side of the chair may have vastly different beliefs than you on this. Talk about "goals" of improving health care, "challenges", etc. Avoid strong blanket statements and anything that specifically implies that the government is uncaring or physicians don't want to care for the underserved.

SpongeBobDrPants · Apr 11, 2007

apricotattack said:
Hello! I'm hoping to get you guys' thoughts on the importance of organic chemistry and physics. I've heard rumors that the applications with As in o-chem go in one pile, while the "other" grades go into another... is there any truth to this?

Also, how much weight is placed on physics? Is an A in organic worth more than an A in physics to the ad. committees?

Thanks a lot!

They're both important in terms of doing well on the MCAT. It looks good to get an A in both. However, a C in o-chem/A in physics looks no different to an adcom (at least, to my adcom) than a C in physics/A in o-chem. No extra weight is placed on getting a good grade in o-chem.

Madame · Apr 11, 2007

LincolnTwins said:
It's so hard for me to work towards a goal without tangible objectives. I mean for the MCAT and GPA there are general averages, but I was thinking of in terms extracurriculars, volunteer hours, and shadowing hours. I mean should I volunteer for a couple of hours once a week for 3 years or is that overkill? Should I shadow a doc twice a month for two years or is that overkill?

Again I know it's hard to say for anyone but I'm worried about stretching myself too thin, or not doing enough. I'm looking for general advice on that. My top chocies are UC schools if that helps at all.

What qualities do you look for most in an applicant? (I'm talking about stuff outside of good GPA/MCAT)

Which qualities in an applicant do you frown upon?

How are the essay and interview stages of the process different in terms of how you look at the applicant?

How do you tell an applicant is being insincere in a reply during an interview?

Thanks in advance for answering these, I appreciate it very much.

Beyond academics, the adcom at my school (and most schools, I presume) look at extracurricular activities including service, employment, clinical exposure, and "fun", scholarly activity (research, fellowships, evidence of life-long learning), the personal statement and other written material (particularly looking at ability to communicate clearly in writing as well as motivation for medicine) and letters of recommendation. Some schools may not put much (or any) emphasis on research experience but many top tier research instituitons do.

The application review asks the question, "On paper, does this applicant have the attributes we look for in a medical student and budding physician?" In the interview we ask, "Does the applicant in the flesh match the applicant on paper?" Sometimes, the applicant on paper seems enthusiastic and clearly motivated to pursue medicine but at interview the same enthusiasm and motivation is lacking. In some instances, what we see is good but there is an unanswered question that the adcom asks to have answered in the interview. Some applicants do a good job of answering the question, some do not.

How does anyone identify insincerity? You know it when you see it.

Madame · Apr 11, 2007

Dr. Josh said:
Hi to you all and I first want to say thank you for being a mentor on this forum. I can not tell you how much I appreciate it as I'm sure your advice will be invaluable.

I will be graduating from my undergrad university in may. I changed to pre-med late in the cycle (my 6th semester). Unfortunately i have to retake a class inwhich i performed poorly in (organic chem 1, inwhich I got a D+ ) and then I will be taking the second half of it for the first time. Otherwise I have like a 3.9 in my sciences. How much is this going to hurt me and what can i do to make up for it?

I have not taken my MCAT yet as I wanted to complete orgo first. I plan to start applying to med schools next June. After I complete summer school what do you suggest is the best way to utilize my time?

You seem to be saying that you will apply in June 2008. This makes sense. Take Orgo I and II this summer, prepare and take the MCAT very early in 2008 and then submit your application early in the 2008 cycle. In the meantime, you are a college graduate who should be able to find some employment from August 2007 through ~August 2009 (when med school begins). If time allows, consider a volunteer service activity to "give back to the community". You also have a year (thorugh June 2008) to bulk up any deficiencies in clinical exposure that you may have given your late entry into the world of "pre-med".

Madame · Apr 11, 2007

Dr. Josh said:
Thank you very much. I forgot to mention that I've done a bunch of clinical volunteering, but I intend to do more. Your timeline suggestion is what I had in mind, thank you. How much is my D+ going to hurt me. Is there anyway I can sufficiently redeem myself?

A D+ is what it is. It might hurt at some schools but not others and the effect may be random. Another reason to apply broadly.

SpongeBobDrPants · Apr 11, 2007

Dr. Josh said:
Are these the most important subjects according to admissions? What if you did really poorly (D+) , retook it and got an A? And what if the original grade is out of sync with all your other science grades? Will the original poor grade put you immediately in the reject pile?

No, physics and o-chem are not the "most important" subjects --- the overall GPA and BCPM GPA are more important than individual subject grades. One poor grade is usually not enough to automatically reject an applicant. If you retook the class and got an A, then it probably won't be a problem.

SpongeBobDrPants · Apr 12, 2007

ryouland said:
Hi,
I'm almost done with my 2nd year and I just want to know if there's anything else that I should be doing to improve my application.
I have a 3.87 and unfortunately it'll probably go down a bit to around a 3.85 after this semester. On AMCAS It'll show about a 3.83 or .82 because A+ = 4.33 at my school and 4.00 on AMCAS. My BCPM gpa will be about the same as my overall, maybe a little higher.

I've done two years of hospital volunteer work in a children's hospital in HS and last summer. I started doing patient escort at my local hospital since January and will continue that until I apply in about a year. I also have been doing big brothers/big sisters and will have a total of two school years at time of application. I will have done supplemental instruction teaching for an inorganic chem I class, and will have completed an eight week research program and about a year of research at my own university. I also will have shadowed two doctors for about a week each and have done a spring break service trip to louisiana.
My question is this: is there anything else I need to do other than do well on the MCAT to be competitive? I feel like I do a good amount but then I see others doing what I'm doing and much more while getting better grades.

Thank you!

It looks like you're doing enough, and your GPA is very good. My only suggestion is to make sure that you're doing things that you're passionate about. Don't just do activities for the sake of applying to med school. You don't want to come across as artificial (I don't think that this necessarily applies to you --- it's just general advice to anyone who reads this). Also, make sure to do stuff for fun --- IM sports, clubs, musical groups, or whatever you like to do. Well-rounded applicants are always more interesting. Keep up the good work!

Madame · Apr 12, 2007

waitlistLimbo said:
Hello - I think this is a great new forum. So, I have a couple of questions and uncertainties that I was hoping would get cleared up. First, a short bio - I applied to start med school this year (2007), I graduated in 2004 from a UC school. 3.9 gpa, 39 MCAT (great science, not so great VR). Tons of research, some awards, leadership, etc; I assume my letters of rec were good. Volunteered for 1 semester in a hospital but that was it - lots of non-clinical volunteer stuff. I think I interview well but not great (I think I look nervous; if I try to relax to much, maybe I seem a bit unenthusiastic...but I definatly don't come accross as arrogant or apathetic).

1. I dropped 2 classes in college (says 'withdrew' on AMCAS) - both were advanced engineering classes (upper level undergrad) and not related to my major (biochem)-basically, I was in both of them for a few weeks and quickly realized I didn't have the right background, so I fled. I didn't mention anything about these on my applications - my thinking was that with so much other stuff (and like 160 credits), this wouldn't be a big deal, maybe get sort of hidden, and I didn't want to highlight it. I applied to a bunch of top 20 schools, interviewed, and have not been accepted anywhere (but several waitlists). This was very surprising to me - the only thing I can think of as being major weaknesses are the lack of clinical experience (though I come from a "medical family") and the drops. Would an admissions comittee look that unfavorably on the dropped classes (and my decision not to explain them) to not accept me if all other things were very strong?

2. Waitlists: I'm waitlisted at 4 schools. Now, I need to decide if I should re-apply or wait and hope for the best. The bad news is that my MCAT is now expired and I am essentially broke. So, I will need to take out loans to reapply and take the mcat. I guess I'm just trying to gauge my best next move: do schools typically have huge waitlists where a large portion of those who stay on it don't get in? Or, if I express interest and stay on the waitlists is it likely that I would get in to 1 of them (of course, I know that there are no guarantees, but if, for example, only 1/5th of those who stay on a waitlist actually get in, I would start finding money to re-apply).

Hope that wasn't too long! Thanks for your help!!

You are on four waitlists and I suspect that the low verbal put you there in comparison with the applicants who got the straight out offers. However, it wasn't so bad that you were rejected. You've got to move one of those waitlists to an offer. Most schools make offers to more applicants than they have room for because they know that many will choose to go elsewhere. The applicant with one top 20 offer usually has a total of 4-6 offers. As those lucky few make their decisions, some schools are going to find that they have unfilled spots. Find out from each of your waitlist schools if you should stay in touch frequently (weekly) or not at all (sometimes the case with ranked lists). Many people on the waitlist will drop off the list as they choose a school that admitted them outright. Keep the admissions office informed of your interest in the school and your ability to show up at a moments notice if an opening becomes available at the last minute.

Madame · Apr 12, 2007

rehanyazdani said:
Hello,

My question is about repeat classes. I made a C in Orgo II and Genetics and am thinking about retaking both classes. If I were to make an A in both classes, how would med schools average the grades? Do individual schools have certain criteria on averaging grades? Thanks for your help.

AMCAS will treat the new classes as additional class work. This means that if your gpa was 3.0 after 120 credits and you took 8 credits and earned As you would add 32 points to the 360 you already had. The 392 is divided by 128 to find your new gpa of 3.06.

A human being reading your application might run his finger down the list of courses you've taken and see the Cs. The person might then spot the repeated courses and the As, but maybe not. It is doubtful that the adcom member would say "a C and an A, we'll call it a B". Qualitatively, it is unlikely to make a big difference unless the Orgo & Genetics courses were taken years ago (>7 yrs) and you can write it off to immaturity.

Madame · Apr 12, 2007

El Camino said:
Hello,
Thanks a lot for giving advice. I really appreciate it. I'm an engineer and have took a lot of math in college. My upper level math courses had so so grades. I received an A in Calculus I, B in Calculus II, C in Calculus III and a C+ in differential equations, and a B in Matrix Methods. Those C's kind of hurt the GPA. Seeing as how they are above and beyond medical school requirements, is there anyway that I can exclude them from my BCPM science GPA?

Thanks!

No, every math course counts. Ouch!

Madame · Apr 12, 2007

AnesthesiaMD said:
So I just decided last year (2006) sometime that I actually wanted to go to medical school. I have done some volunteering and shadowing (about a month's worth so far) and will start volunteering again at a hospital in the city where I am going to school. I will volunteer all summer long while taking summer courses and studying for the MCAT. I also plan on doing several things for relay for life throughout the summer, and other random community service things. I am going to try to get into doing some research next year as well with a professor at my school. My GPA at the time of application will be 3.38 cumulative and 3.22 BCPM. My last 26 credits have been all A's including A's in Orgo. II, Human Physiology, and Biochemistry. I had one bad semester during my sophomore year where I failed Gen. Chem. I but retook it the very next semester and got an A. I got a CB (2.5) in Orgo. I and a C in physics I. I have another C in my first Biology course after which I haven't gotten less than an A in any Biology course (I'm a biomed major). Other than those grades, the rest of my courses are B's or higher.

If I were to wait until 2008 to apply for the 2009 class, I would have more experience volunteering and research and my GPA would be 3.51 cumulative and 3.43 BCPM (assuming I get all A's my final year of college). Would it be wiser to just wait until then to apply or do I have a shot this year considering I didn't start considering medical school until just last year? I will be taking the MCAT in August of this year. I am looking at some modest schools in the midwest. Comments from the adcom members would be greatly appreciated!

Because you came to the decision late in the game and because you won't have the MCAT scores until late, which means you'll be a late applicant and because your gpa will be so much better (you hope) by June 2008 than it is in September 2007, you would be wise to plan on applying next year and spending the gap year doing something that will be interesting to talk about during your interviews. Applying when your applicant is suboptimal can be a waste of money and a source of emotional stress.

Madame · Apr 13, 2007

MarisaD said:
Im a 32 year old physical therapist applying to med school (finally!). I have a 3.95 GPA, 3.9 Science GPA, years and years of medical experience, (volunteer medical, research, labs, writing, assistant teaching, editing, lectures, etc...) and will have great letters of rec. I went to Duke for my Master's and did great there too (we didnt get real grades), so Im sure I will interview well.
I took the MCAT afew years ago and did horrible, but didnt realize how hard it would be. What if I dont get an 'average' score this time? I would rather not quit work to study, since I am a cancer research assistant, part time therapist, and own my own therapy company so I dont want to drop everything, but should I? How high do I need to get into MD school?
Im scared it will be the only piece of the 'puzzle' missing!
thanks for help!!

Given your gpa and everything else, you should shoot for a 30 and absolutely nothing less than 9 in any section. This will give you a shot in some of the upper tier schools if you do a good job of describing your journey and "why medicine" after establishing yourself in one of the other health professions.

How important is it to you to get into medical school? If it is very important you'll modify your schedule for the time it takes to prepare well for the MCAT. You've taken it once so you know, more or less, what to expect (although it changed to the computerized format). Get some prep books and start taking practice tests - or if you need the discipline, take a prep-course. Don't let this trip up an otherwise interesting application.

Madame · Apr 13, 2007

MOMSA3MD said:
I returned to school last fall to complete my pre-req for my undergrad degree. My initial interest years ago (20) was to be a doctor. I have registered for the MCAT for June 15 in preparing for the 2008 cycle, I originally took Bio, Chem, Micro and Cell Bio years ago, but had not taken org. chem and physics, of which I plan to take this summer. In addition, My overall GPA is a 3.5. Will the admission committees look at these courses as being too "old", even though I got A's and B's in them? And, how will they view my career change from a licensed financial services rep to returning to medicine after all these years?

Some schools will not take pre-req courses more than 5 years old! Your best bet is to go to your pre-med office & ask to puruse the MSAR (and buy yourself a copy when the Spring 2008 edition comes out - you'll make up the cost if you spare yourself even one "bad" supplemental). That will give you a feel for which schools may reject coursework taken more than a decade ago.

Take a look at an MCAT prep book. Do you feel fresh enough on the bio & chem sections to do well? do you think that you can manage the MCAT prior to taking orgo and physics??

Doodledog · Apr 15, 2007

dr_wannabe said:
Hi,

I'm sure this has been asked many times before, but usually what level of patient contact of shadowing is expected. I've shadowed in an ER for maybe 10 hrs and volunteered/shadowed in a free healthcare clinic for maybe 20 hrs. I feel I have a good grasp on what a physician is and has to do.

Also for volunteering, I know doing no volunteering would stand out (in a bad way) on an application. At what point does it not stand out? 50 hrs? 100 hrs? I would appreciate any advice. Thank you.

Unfortunately, there is a tendency to see shadowing and volunteering as "check-offs" on the application and to try therefore to determine what one needs to do to get the credit needed. From an adcom perspective, I don't pay a lot of attention to the number of hours one has been doing these things but want to understand what the person learned from the experience, how it shaped their understanding of medicine and how and why they chose what they did in terms of "volunteering."

As with other areas, it can be difficult to figure these out from the PS and so often this doesn't become clear until the interview. Then, it is often relatively easy to see who did a day at a shelter, food kitchen or with habitat because they knew it was "needed" and who had spent years involved in community service activities and had a real understanding of the needs of whoever was being served.

I have a bit of sympathy for those one-day folks as unfortunately, the nature of the system can lead people to believe that it is a check-off or "hoop" to be cleared. It is not. It is about you and your maturity, integrity, and understanding of the needs of patients and society as well as the nature not just of what a doctor does, but of what medicine and its relationship to society (good and bad) is about. Not easy to learn as a premed - but we'd like to see some insights that can't be gotten in a few hours or with very limited experiences.

My suggestion is that you ask yourself, or have someone else ask you, to explain out-loud in a test-interview setting your experiences, why you chose them, what you gained from them and what you believe to be the needs of the patient and communities you saw during them.

Madame · Apr 15, 2007

prznpremed said:
Dear Adcomms,

I do not know what the best route is to making me a better applicant.Here is my spiel:

I applied this year w/ sub-par stats: 3.4 total & science gpa and 29Q mcat (10V 10B 9P) and got three interviews (I'm a CA resident). I was lucky, and think I got the interviews because of my LORs, ECs, and the fact that I took a slightly unorthodox approach to secondaries. Then, I got waitlisted. I fully understand that when you have applicants w/ 3.5+ GPA and 30+ MCATs it would be difficult for me to get an outright acceptance. And so now I wait, and write letters, and meet with deans, but the possibility remains that I won't get accepted this year. So naturally, I'm thinking of what I can do to make myself a more desirable applicant.

The tricky thing is, both my GPA and MCAT could stand for improvement. Also, my score will expire if I don't apply again this coming June. I am out of school and have been working for the last year in research ergo nothing has changed on my application, numbers-wise. I am hesitant to apply again without making any positive changes. My options are the following:

1. Take a large amount of time off and study for the MCAT properly (I only studied for a short amount last time). Take the test in January and take the remainder of the time to do medically related activities like research, clinical experiences abroad, etc.

2. Do a special master's program. I've applied to a few. I know they have high rates of acceptance into medical school, but I also think that undergrad GPA and your MCAT are the 'big draws' when you apply. A high graduate school GPA will look good, but in a much more subjective way.

If you were presented with applicant A who had, say a 34 on the MCAT and a 3.4 UG GPA, or applicant B who had a 4.0 grad GPA, 3.4 UG GPA and 29 MCAT who would you choose, all other things being the same?

Thank you, I appreciate any advice...

I'd take the high MCAT guy every time. It is far less subjective than the gpa, particularly the grad gpa.

Madame · Apr 15, 2007

apple124 said:
Hi there,
Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer this. My questions are pretty basic, but I am relatively new to this whole process and looking for some guidance. I am a non traditional applicant (28 yrs old). I went to a top liberal arts college and majored in art history, but have a low GPA (3.1). I have been working as a Healthcare analyst in finance for the past four years doing research. This summer i am starting my postbac at Harvard Extension. I am confident that i can do well, but was wondering what an Adcom thinks of finishing postbac in a year and a summer (meaning chem this summer and orgo, bio, and physics this academic year) versus spreading it out over two years (more time to gain other experience). I dont have many EC's as my job required an insane number of hours int he past few years, so I know this is a weak spot on my app. I am thinking of becoming a certified nursing assistant and working in a hospital to get some direct patient care experience. Is this a good idea? I would be interested to hear of other suggestions that would help me in working more directly with patients or in a hospital setting. Also curious as to what classes aside from the prereq's are looked upon favorable by the adcom? Any advice you have would be great! Thanks so much.

If you take classes from Summer 07 through Spring 08 and apply in June '08 having taken the MCAT in Spring 08, you should be OK. Being a CNA and working in a hospital (or nursing home) on weekends or whenever you can fit it into your class schedule, would be a great way to show that you are not afraid to get your hands dirty or to do the most humble of service. You should have some additional exposure to physicians in their day-to-day work so that you can show that you have some experience the reflects the day-to-day reality of medical practice.

Your BA along with the post-bac is all the classwork you need. The art history degree shows that you have a breadth and depth of experience outside of the basic sciences and some adcom members find that refreshing.

Madame · Apr 16, 2007

iagirl088 said:
Hello, thanks for all the great advice! I just wanted to ask a couple quick questions. I applied this last year with a 3.82 gpa and 28Q MCAT. I had two interviews, but unfortunately didn't get accepted. I talked to the admissions counselors at both schools and they both said I interviewed well, my application was strong, and that the MCAT was the only real weakness of my application. Additionally, my freshman year I was cited for intoxication by an RA (not the police or anything), but had not actually been drinking in the building. I didn't explain this very much in my first AMCAS, so I'm wondering if this small incident is going to keep me from being accepted in the future? I plan on explaining more what I learned from the incident on the next AMCAS and that I actually ended up becoming an RA, so I can understand the position she was put in. I have some previous volunteer experience, research experience, and have been heavily involved in music groups throughout my undergraduate career. Currently, I am re-taking the MCAT in June and also volunteering two days a week at a hospital. I'm auditing a human anatomy class that uses cadavers and am also thinking about taking a spanish class. Is this enough improvement or do I need to be seeking other experiences to better my application? Thanks in advance.

Your MCAT is the biggest weakness in your application. Retake and earn nothing less than a 10 in each section and you should have better results in the next cycle.

Madame · Apr 16, 2007

TheGreatHunt said:
Hello and thank you Physicians!

I have a question regarding admissions:

I am a senior this year, with one more year to go with a double major in Biology and Chemistry. I had a very slow start in my endeavors to be a doctor. I've always been involved in volunteering throughout the community, but I hadn't known that I wanted to attend medical school until I was midway through my Junior year. My problem is my seemingly, in comparison to others on SDN, minimal exposure to medicine.

I've volunteered(Participated in):

Freshman year: Construction, where we've built houses for the elderly or disabled

Sophomore year: (Same Construction volunteering), VITA(Volunteer Income Tax Assistance, I did this when I was contemplating becoming an accountant), and at a Soup Kitchen

Junior Year: (Same Construction Volunteering), (same)Soup Kitchen, Helping to coordinate a health awareness week at my school, and infrequently in a local nursing home (Think 40-50 total hours)

I transferred to a very respected University this year.

This year: (Same Construction volunteering), Volunteering at a place for Developmentally Disabled Adults(This is practically my only experience here, around 50 hours), and Shadowing a doctor(50 hours so far).

My GPA is mediocre(3.75ish BCPM around 3.65ish), taking the MCAT in May

My question is... will an admission's committee look down on me for having so little experience with medicine? Will my volunteering count negatively toward me because a great portion of it is not medically related, will this seem like I am trying to "Fluff the cake?" Should I tell them about any of my outside volunteering at all even?

Like I said, I've been involved in the community, I just didn't know what I wanted to do until much later in the process than others. I kind of had to figure it all out on my own, would it be unwise to apply this year? I've always been interested in Medicine, but it was only in the last year and a half that I've been dedicated to this process. I'd appreciate your advice on what I should do, or the strength of my candidacy.

Service to the community, particularly the same service organization for years, is a big help on your application. Construction sounds like an interest of yours, perhaps even a hobby that you'd continue with beyond undergrad. (You might get interviewers who will want to talk about this because it is a little bit different & because you were involved for so many years.) You should absolutely include all that you've listed here. It shows your interest in giving your time to help the less fortunate -- even before you decide on pre-med, which demonstrates that this is part of who you are, not something you are doing just to impress the adcom.

Madame · Apr 16, 2007

NexusMD said:
Hello Doctors,

I am also in need of more clinical and shadowing activities. I am not affiliated with a teaching hospital, and I dont really have any family friends who are doctors. I just read that you said cold-calling is not a good idea, whats my next best option? I dont know of a way to meet a doctor to shadow if I cant cold call them?

Do you have a personal physician? Do your parents, siblings or grandparents? Do you know someone with a baby or small child? (Those little ones have routine visits every couple of months the first couple of years.) The point is this: have someone you know ask on your behalf at their next visit. Sometimes it is best not to ask the physician directly ("may my grandson shadow you?") but rather ask for a referral to someone who would be open to shadowing ("my grandson is premed;could you recommend someone that might allow my grandson to shadow him?"). The physician can always recommend himself but it doesn't put the doc on the spot in that way.

Madame · Apr 16, 2007

kronickm said:
Question about math.

I took Advanced Calculus in my first undergrad term and got a C.
7 years have now passed and I am in a post-bac program. I opted not to take the optional pre-post-bac algebra course, so the C in calc is the only college level math class that I have taken.

That being said, I have scored a 780 and 760 on the SAT and GRE math sections respectively, and have always just understood math really well(hence my being in AP Calc first term).

So, do med schools look at SAT/GRE scores, will they realize that I am more then capable in math despite a C in the only college level math class I have ever taken? Is it worth it for me to take a simple algebra/geometry class just so I can post an A even though I have a very solid grasp on the subject matter?

Obviously you test well in mathematics. There is a place on the AMCAS for other test scores. It is optional and very few people use it. You can list SAT & GRE scores there (GREs are rarely listed and SATs even more rarely). Big question would be if an adcom member would have any clue as to how to interprete these scores (some adcom members attended college themselves in the 1950s-60s so it has been a long time since they've looked at these numbers). Second question would be if it would be integrated with your calc grade in the adcom member's mind or would just look like irrelevant application padding.

On the other hand, taking pre-cal now, after having taken and passed advanced calc, could look like application padding (particularly if you get the easy A). I can't recall ever hearing an adcom member comment positively or negatively on a math grade.... it doesn't seem to have the same importance as o-chem & physics.

SpongeBobDrPants · Apr 16, 2007

docbarry said:
I am currently enrolled in a masters program. I am finishing up my pre reqs this summer. However, I will lack orgo. I plan on taking that in the fall. I am applying for the 2008 cycle so I want to apply early in August-Sept with my gpa, mcats and extra cirrics. Can I apply without all the pre reqs finishied as long as they are completed by the time med school beigns? I cant wait another year. this is it do or die. please give me your advice.

You can apply without having taken o-chem, just as long as you take it before matriculating. However, the biology section of the MCAT contains a lot of o-chem, so you might want to consider taking o-chem before taking the MCAT.

Doodledog · Apr 17, 2007

abmuk said:
Greetings,

I have heard that many medical schools tend to prefer applicants that graduate from certain universities, if so, which universities are generally preferred?

Thank you.

I have not heard this and it does not reflect my opinion. Therefore, I do not have a preferred list. I prefer applicants whom I believe are committed to being good medical students and physicians regardless of where they went to college.

Madame · Apr 23, 2007

Malien said:
Hello,

I am 21 years old, and currently a Biology major (Psychology minor) in my senior year of undergraduate school. However, I will be graduating in December instead of next month. My ultimate goal is to become a medical (D.O.) researcher...but I may have some obstacles to overcome.

1. Regarding grades. My overall GPA is 3.59, and my science GPA is 3.33. I've gotten a range of B- to A's in all of my courses except Organic Chemistry II, where I got a C. During that time I foolishly had a full course load while studying for the MCATs. I have never been good with memorizing numerous reactions and reagents, and I feel that I really tried my hardest to exceed in the course. Would my grades be good enough for an osteopathic school? And during the interview, is my single C going to be the "main topic" when it comes to my grades?

No DO experience here. As for the C, it does stand out and it could hurt you. Somewhat it will depend on how well you did in O-Chem I. Overall your science gpa is B+ which while not great doesn't seem really bad either.

2. Regarding MCATs. The first time I took the paper-pencil MCAT was in April 2006 of my junior year (This was also during the time of my full course load and Orgo II). I got a 25M (BS-9, VR-8, PS-8). I was very dissapointed at first, but eventually accepted the score. I thought it would be sufficient enough for an osteopathic school. and so I was not planning to retake the test. Unfortunately, pressure from my family (who want me to become an M.D. instead) lead me to retake the test (on the computer this time) this past January. To prepare further for the test, I took a Biochemistry course (it is not required for my major) and earned an A. Will that A count in my science GPA, even if it is a free elective for me?

Biochem will count toward your science gpa.

I ended doing worse scared: ) on the January MCAT with a 22Q (BS-10, VR-5, PS-7). I have absolutely no idea how I did so horribly on Verbal, since that is usually my best section. I could not afford a rescore (and I'm not sure if it's even possible with the CBT) and I'm now stuck witht the grade.

Finding out that I did worse the second time around really devestated me, and got me rethinking my career choice. I feel like my second score will ruin my chances for osteopathic school, since I have no choice but to release it. My family has practically given up on any prospect of me becoming a doctor. My backup plan has always been research, and I have a strong research background, but now I'm not even sure if I want to be a doctor anymore...

My clinical experience is...odd. Unless being a frequent hospital patient counts. I volunteered at one hospital a couple years ago as a courier at first, and then the volunteer coordinator moved me to the information desk, even though I stressed to her that I wanted clinical experience, so I left the hospital.

The second hospital I volunteered in last summer put me in the Recovery Room/PACU, but the nurses and doctors there weren't very receptive to me at all. I understood they were busy and all, but all I did was watch patients come in and out of consciousness for 4 hours at a time. I felt so invisible, and everyone pretty much ignored me and I got the feeling that they didn't want to answer any questions I had about medicine. I took a leave of absence because I am currently back in school, but I might return (perhaps to a different hosptial unit?) this summer.

I haven't been able to shadow any D.O.s, as I can find any around where I live, and one of the doctors (M.D.) I have contacted did not want me to shadow them and even urged me to try for MD and ditch DO. O.O

I guess what I'm really asking is for some insight on deciding on whether I should 1) apply to medical school in June or 2) get a PhD first and try medical school later.

You have to decide if you are motivated to pursue a career in medicine and if you have the aptitude to do well in medical school. Your performance on the MCAT does raise some questions...

I consider myself to be a very creative person when it comes to science. I like to think up of new ideas and experiments and interpret results. However, I am very interested in how the human body works....and how it is affected by disease. I want to find cures for diseases one day...ultimately.

But what I really want to know is if I will be able to do so as a medical doctor, or a researcher...or both. I asked my cousin (who's a resident in Internal Medicine) about the nature of medical school and she said that it is rote memorization for the first two years, then long hours of rotations for the rest. She said that I wouldn't be able to be "creative" at all. I can memorize lots of information if I put my mind to it, but it is not my preferred way of learning. I prefer problem-solving learning methods.

I have been so depressed over this issue for the past 6 weeks, and I feel like time is running out for me. And I just feel really stupid because I can't figure out what I want to anymore... But I feel so much better now for finally pouring my heart out.

I would be very greatful if you could give me some input.

~Malien

If you are interested in finding cures for diseases, you might be much happier in a basic science program than in an applied field such as medicine. While there are some people who do both (working at the bench and bedside), there is quite a bit being done in drug development by people with MS and PhD and PharmD degrees. You seem to have a lot to think about and it might be helpful for you to find a career counselor at your school, or elsewhere, who can help you to sort out your options taking into account your strengths and preferences.

Madame · Apr 23, 2007

ErynD said:
I am afraid that I have very much compromised my future as a doctor. I have transferred schools 3 times during my 5 year college career. I am now at the University of Michigan, but do not have an amazing academic record since I have been here. Until my transfer to this school, I was a 4.0 student.

Since then, I have received a D in physics (retook it and got a B, but it still shows on transcript) and have failed Genetics, which I am currently retaking now.

My gradpoint is low right now, but if, for my last year in college, I get straight A's, would this show improvement?

Am I forever destined to go to a less than average med school even if I do a post bac?

Thank you for your time!

Eryn

What will your application show? That you attended two different schools and had a straight A average. You also mention a 5 year college career and having one more year until you finish. That makes six years which is a bit unusual and will raise a few eyebrows. Did you have Ws to protect the 4.0 or take less than a full load?

Then you went to Michigan and had a horrible year with a D is a pre-req and an F in a science course. If you rebound, this bad year might be chalked-up to becoming adjusted to a new school (or perhaps a school that is more difficult than your prior schools). There isn't much to be said until your final year plays out and the bad year can be put in perspective.

Any US medical school is going to qualify you to take the licensing exam and enter the match for a US residency position. You should focus on getting into medical school and not on any artificial ranking of "average" medical school, whatever that is.

Madame · Apr 24, 2007

chickenlittle84 said:
I went to an ivy for undergrad (one of the more difficult/very little grade inflation ones) and majored in a social science - the major was pretty intensive so I didn't have a whole lot of interaction with other pre-meds. Overall GPA is 3.56, BCPM is 3.22, and non-science is 3.83. These are my BCPM grades:

Fresh year:
2 Semesters of Inorganic Chem: C/C
1 semester quantitative demography: A

Sophomore year:
2 Semesters of Biology: B/C+
2 Semesters of Physics: A-/B+
1 semester of intro stats: B+

Summer after sophomore year:
2 semesters of Ochem: B+/B+ (I took it over the summer at another ivy because I spent my entire junior year off campus).

Junior year:
No science

I took my MCAT after Junior year and got a 31: 12V, 9P, 10B, S

Senior Year:
1 semester Biochemistry: A
1 semester Neuroscience: A-
Advanced Biochem Class - Metabolism: A-
1 semester advanced stats: B+
Cell Biology: A

I have a lot of work focusing on low-income and underserved communities, in terms of coursework, research, and other ECs. I graduated in 2006 and am participating in a competitive fellowship this year for community leaders/people interested in public service.

Sorry, I know this a lot! I am really worried about not getting in anywhere becuase of numbers. Any thoughts on the profile? Any suggestions for things I could do next year while I apply to make my application stronger? Any schools I should really consider? Schools I should just forget about? Thanks SO much in advance for your help!!!!!!!!!!!!! I really appreciate it!!!

You might do well to focus on the lower tier private schools, your state schools (unless you are in California), state schools that welcome out-of-state applicants. You might also consider whether osteopathic medicine is a good fit for you.

The multiple C/C+ grades are disappointing but you have a nice trend going with the strong finish so that's good to see. The fellowship is a good thing to talk about in your interviews and perhaps relate to how you might apply what you are learning/practicing to the care of patients some day.

Madame · Apr 24, 2007

oldntired said:
Question has probably been raised and answered many times, but here it goes, how do med schools (allo) average community college, university, and pott bac grades?

What I've seen in terms of "averaging" is more qualitative than quantitative. Strong grades from a strong program are at the top, poor grades from a community college or unranked school would be at the bottom and average grades from strong programs and great grades from weaker programs wind up in the middle.

I have a much higher transfer GPA (3.9) than my GPA at UCLA (3.29); planning on doing a postbac and doing well. I think that I have read that schools average the GPA's but the grades are stratified so that they ID trends. A backsliding trend, obviously, not winning any points, right!

That could make you look like someone who didn't do well in a strong program despite success in an earlier program (you didn't say where). If you didn't do any pre-reqs in college then the post-bac will be what "counts" but if the post-bac is repeating what you bombed in college then it is less impressive and I mentally discount it by 10% but that's just me.

Also, if in an interview, you replied to the "what happened to your grades?" and my response was that I simply lost focus in my int'l relations program, would that be cause for alarm? Reading the numerous nontrad forums, their is a chorus of (seemingly) whiney voices as to why their grades slipped or they underperformed. I simply could not get into my classes.

The follow-up questions might be: "how did you regain your focus? Why had you chosen international relations? Did the discovery that the subject didn't interest you bring about a change in career plans?"

What is your general feeling toward those who are nontrad (30s) and have served 10+ years in the military. Is their a unspoken negative bias towards either? Appreciate your time.

One sdn applicant this year who fit that description (30s/military) has had remarkable success (offers from >5 top 20 schools). I have not heard any negative comments from my adcom (n=16 with whom I have regular contact) regarding non-trads and/or military service. We interview several applicants in uniform every year and hundreds of non-trads and those applications are not flagged in any way; the application process and consideration is the same.

Madame · Apr 24, 2007

rogerwilco said:
This forum is an excellent idea and a very helpful resource!

When I began my undergraduate career at a private liberal arts college, I had no real academic direction and took a variety of courses I was (at the time) apathetic about. In addition, I was far more interested in participating as a varsity athlete, and instead of being a student-athlete, I was most certainly an athlete-student. Because of this (and a few other reasons I won't bother elaborating on at the risk of sounding too apologetic), I ended up with about a 3.0 GPA for two years. I made the decision at the beginning of my second year there that I wanted to major in a specialized allied health field (exercise physiology) but was still unsure of an actual career goal. Doing so required transferring to a larger school, which I did after my two year stint at my first school.

While at my second school, I turned things around completely and began focusing on my studies and becoming involved with various organizations on campus. I finished my remaining 3 years (needed 3 years of heavy course loads to complete all the necessary credits in the major I chose) with a 3.94 GPA and graduated with Highest Honors. However it wasn't until halfway through my second year there that I decided that medicine was my true calling, so when I graduated I actually still needed to complete Physics II, and OChem I and II. I did so the summer immediately following my graduation, while also studying for the MCAT on my own, and ended up getting A's in all 3 courses, and I scored a 33 on the August '06 MCAT.

Because of my first two years of school, my overall GPA for AMCAS will adjust to roughly 3.57, with a science GPA of 3.62 or so. I understand these numbers are "fair" with regards to the average person matriculating to medical school. Hopefully the sharp upward trend in my grades/performances will look good, but will people/computers screening for interviews realize this, or will they only really pay attention to the raw numbers 3.57 and 3.62? Will admission committees look at my first two years and say that I "couldn't hack it" or "couldn't adjust to an increased work load?" I don't want to harp on (or even really mention) those first two years in a personal statement, but will be more than happy to discuss them at an interview (along with my subsequent improvement when I actually decided what it is I wanted to do).

I plan to apply broadly. If it's relevant, I have pretty good EC's, and I did a 4 month internship with a family practice office as a medical assistant while still in undergrad, and am now employed by them full-time in the same capacity as a medical assistant, so I've got great clinical exposure.

I think that you'll get a good look, even at the upper tier schools (you're not too low to get rejected just on numbers). You were a varsity athlete during part of your academica career, have an upward trend, clinical exposure, and you plan to apply broadly. I think that you've got it all covered. Good luck.

Doodledog · Apr 24, 2007

Madame said:
I have not heard any negative comments from my adcom (n=16 with whom I have regular contact) regarding .....military service.

I concur. Military service is almost always seen as a positive. Certainly it is by me. It doesn't guarantee anything and won't overcome bad numbers or other issues, but we have great respect for those who've served the US in that way, whether it was a combat role or not. Remember that adcoms are looking for people to admit to "their" medical school who will contribute to the class they are trying to build. Former military personnel will almost always be seen in a positive light from that perspective.

Madame · Apr 26, 2007

blues91776 said:
Hi,

I got a few questions. During my second year of undergrad there were some family problems that really distracted my studies and there was an issue with a course (philosophy) so two mishaps that in my grades is a D+ in philosophy and C+ in Gen Bio I.

Which course should be first priority to retake?
How important is the philosophy grade?
How important is it to retake the course at the same college? Can I take it elsewhere because I'd like to take it in the summer in driving distance from my hometown.

If the rest of the application is solid, there really isn't much point in retaking the courses unless you are applying to osteopathic schools where the first grade will be nullifed by the "retake". Doing well in the repeated courses are going to have a neglible effect on your gpa. The philosophy course isn't very important (unless it was a medical ethics course

). Better that you do some upper level bio courses and do very well in those to show that you have overcome whatever was holding you back in Gen Bio I.

Madame · Apr 26, 2007

Thekeens said:
Thank you very much for taking the time to read and answer my question, I really appreciate it. Originally in my college career, I was pre-med, but failed the first semester of General Chem, and changed to undecided as I figured apparently I wouldn't be able to cut it as a doctor based on this grade. However, after an experience studying abroad my junior year, I knew that I could not give up on my lifelong dream and decided to give it another go-around. I retook General Chem and got a B plus, took two anatomy courses and my first semester of physics and got A's in them all. My overall GPA is a 3.69, as my failed Chem class was definitely an exception to the rule on my transcripts! Now, I am a senior about to graduate with a B.S in Kinesiology, but I still need to take classes next year to satisfy the rest of my pre-reqs (2 Bios, 1 Chem, 2 O chems and 1 Physics.)After graduation this summer, I will have to pay for EVERYTHING myself as my mother funded my living expenses, tuition, car payment, etc. all through college. So... I am planning on taking the rest of my pre-reqs at the local community college (which has a very good reputation) so that I son't have to take out loans to fulfill these requirements, as I know I will have to take out plenty of those in med school!I know 4 year institutions are generally preferred, but will I be looked completely down on for taking the cc route? Also, how will my original failure in Chem (first sesmester, freshman year keep in mind... SO unprepared and didn't know how to study!) look and how can I make it appear in the best light possible ( I did get straight A's the semester following that). Thanks again for your time!

So far, so good. The one bad grade in your first semester is not a deal breaker.

The only problem with the community college plan is that it is going to look as if you were looking for an easier classroom experience than you had in undergrad. So, it could be a case of "penny-wise, pound foolish" to economize there. Would you borrow to pay for 5 years of medical school? That, in essence, is what you would be doing if you borrowed & went to a good post-bac program to do the pre-reqs. For your $$ you also get much better pre-med counseling than you can get at a community college (committee letters from well known post-bac programs are famous for being comprehensive and very well crafted; the offices have all the resources you'll need to choose schools,etc).

Madame · Apr 26, 2007

Porco Rosso said:
I am graduate from a top ten engineering school with a GPA of 3.2. However, I realized during my internships that my real love was for medicine (i received my EMT-intermediate certification before starting college; worked over 2yrs as radiology assistant before starting college).

After college, I went through a downward phase of impelling doom that made a big mistake and flunked two bio courses. But, since then I kept up a GPA above 3.8.

Right now, I am in a SMP and doing really well. GPA of 3.9 and soon will be doing clinical research work at local ER. This will be my first year of application. I am studying to take mcat in upcoming june.

How will medschool will see my profile? I am pretty much set on going into family practice (childhood experiences). I KNOW FOR SURE THIS IS MY LIFE and WANT TO BE DEVOTED TO PT. CARE. I will turn 28 in 2008.

I really appreciate any input. I know DO schools are little more forgiving but MD degree will open me up to very good clinical years and help to make me an excellent family practice doctor.

DO schools do have a reputation of being more forgiving and they are very committed to training primary care providers (family practice certainly fits that description). You might look at allopathic schools that have a mission of training primary care providers for underserved areas. If your home state has such a school, you may be in luck. Otherwise, there are some other schools that may see you as a non-trad and an engineering undergrad and give you the benefit of the doubt.

SpongeBobDrPants · Apr 26, 2007

prznpremed said:
In your opinion, with a 3.4 GPA, what is a good MCAT score to shoot for to get acceptances (hopefully avoiding waitlists, assuming one interviews well) at lower to mid tier schools. I realize that GPA will take you out of the running at quite a few schools, but some are more lenient than others.

Thanks!

There are many other factors involved besides GPA and MCAT --- for example, a person has a 3.4/29 but has impressive/unique extracurricular activities and great interpersonal skils could have a good chance of being accepted. Aim for the highest MCAT possible. A 3.4 GPA and 34+ MCAT would probably give you reasonable assurance of an acceptance, provided that everything else is strong. Apply broadly!

Madame · Apr 26, 2007

Daydreamer2008 said:
Hello Adcomms,
I am a current 2007 applicant who has a 3.39 OA gpa, 3.38 science (UC Berkeley). I did poorly during my first couple years of undergrad, but got ~3.9 gpa during my senior years (took an extra year). I got B's in chem, a B+ and C+ in ochem, C and B in lower div bio, and B and B+ in english. All of my upper div (molecular bio courses) are A's. I know this looks terrible, but I got a 32P on my mcat (11V 11P 10B). I also got my MPH in epidemiology at UCLA (3.83 gpa). I spent 2 summers at NCI, I worked for 3 years at homeless clinic at UC Berkeley, and worked part-time throughout college/grad school. My letters include: 2 docs at NCI, 2 docs who taught me at UCLA, 1 molecular bio professor at Berkeley-got A's in his cell bio courses, and a doc who was my advisor for the homeless clinic.

By the end of august and sep of 2006 I was complete at 14 schools (all in Cali + GW, Columbia, NYMC, Georgetown, Boston, and NYU). I later added Drexel, Albany, St. Louis, and Temple in Oct/Nov/Dec. I got no interviews from any schools. What would you say my greatest weakness is? I am applying again for the 2008 cycle so even if I retook Ochem it wouldn't show up on AMCAS, would you still recommend me to retake it? What do you think is detracting the adcomms from my application?

I know someone else with a 3.0 undergrad, 3.4 grad who got an interview at Albany, but they put me on pre interview hold. Why am I having such bad luck? I am trying to contact the adcomms at the schools that rejected me but they are so busy right now it is difficult. Any advice would help. Thanks!

Given your stats & experiences, I say you applied to too many high tier schools at the outset and too late to the schools where you might have had a shot if you had applied to those schools in July rather than in late Fall.

Madame · Apr 26, 2007

ssquared said:
I have a question regarding repeating courses: my GPA leaves something to be desired (it will be around a 3.28 when I graduate), a lot of which comes from a C, C+, and C in three successive chemistry classes. I am going to an SMP in the fall where I will be taking almost exclusively medical school classes. Should I bother repeating some of the chemistry? I know the orgo now (12 on the BS section of the MCAT) but at the time I had some health problems that made being successful in the courses impossible. I'm just wondering if doing well in an SMP will speak for itself and I won't have to re-take those classes. Thanks!

Retaking the chem courses will have a minimal effect on overall gpa except on DO school applications. The gpa, to me, is a bigger stumbling block than the individual grades. What might fly at some schools won't fly with my adcom (upper tier school) so it is hard to judge how the undergrad/SMP application is going to look to some of the schools where you might send your application. I guess this is why we've taken so long to respond to your query.

Madame · Apr 26, 2007

Kate6058 said:
Hi, I was wondering if someone could further elaborate on Tribeca's question about whether or not August is too late to submit MCAT scores. Do most schools have rolling admissions or are schools simply more likely to interview applicants with solid numbers if they apply in June or July? Is it the simple fact that a school could technically fill their quota of responses before you even get an interview?

Some schools do have rolling admissions. All schools have a limited number of interview slots. So many applicants apply early (my school could fill all its interview seats by taking one out of every two who apply on the first day!) By August, some of those interview seats have gone to the early birds. You are fighting the early birds plus the August crowd for the remaining seats.

If an adcom member is reading a good applications, the natural reaction is to recommend for interview - not to say, "let's see if someone better comes along a month from now". There is a little bit of holding for later consideration but for the most part we are snapping up the best with the hope of snagging them before they decide that 10 interviews is enough and that they can't afford one more trip (particularly if the interview date is late enough that the applicant is already holding an offer and can afford to decline an interview invitation). So with all this feeding frenzy for excellent early bird applicants, we often fill interview seats early in the process.

Madame · Apr 27, 2007

rehanyazdani said:
Hello,

I would like to know how medical schools average grades. I made a C in Orgo II. If I were to retake it and make an A, how will medical schools average the two grades and what will it be? I'm not sure if individual school's have their own policies regarding retakes. Also, are there any schools that take the highest of the two grades when computing bcpm gpa and do not average? Thanks.

At allopathic schools, both are used to compute gpa and bcpm gpa. So retaking is going to add a few quality points to the denominator and a few quality points (depending on the grade) to the numerator. In the big picture, a retake won't change your gpa by very much. On the other hand, doing well after having a C previously, may show that given a second chance, you managed to master the material. Unfortunately, your application will be grouped with applications from those who managed to score an A on the first try. Some adcoms might see something special in your application (interesting personal statement, unusual or particularly impressive outside interests and activities) and decide to interview you despite the poor Orgo grade. Good luck! :luck:

Madame · Apr 27, 2007

scblues01 said:
Hi,

This year I applied to only a handful of schools, got interviews at most, but was only admitted to my safety school. This isnt a bad school, but its not really what I want and Im considering reapplying next year. Next years pool would include several I was rejected from this year as well as new schools. My concerns/questions are as follows:

1) Would schools know and hold it against me that Id been accepted previously and turned the offer down to reapply? Does it come across as vain to want to attend the best school possible?

2) Do I have a realistic chance of making it into top tier schools? I was waitlisted at a top school this round, and Im a fairly strong applicant (3.95 GPA, MCAT 36 (13B, 12P, 11V), very strong letters, research and a publication), but lack clinical experience.

In your opinion, what aspects of a medical school (curriculum, faculty, student body, hospitals for rotation, etc.) are most influencial in producing good doctors? In other words, I realize that a well-respected name alone does not make a school good, but what exactly does?

I was accepted to a medical school this year, but am hesitant to attend. Would it be held against me in the application process next year if I opted to reapply with the hope of gaining entrance to a better school?

Yes, you will raise serious questions if you turn down an offer of admission and then turn around and reapply. You may even find yourself blacklisted (one poster over on the pre-allo forum believes that this is situation this year-he turned down an osteopathic offer in Texas in the previous application cycle.

If you had had some clinical experience you would have/should have had a good shot at admission at a top tier school in the last cycle. As it is, even without clinical experience, you got an offer of admission somewhere. Why won't you run with it?

What makes a good school? It starts with good candidates for admission: intellectually gifted, emotionally mature, morally upstanding, ready to embrace a lifetime of learning, and posessing a willingness to be of service to others. It has a faculty that provide excellent role models. It has educational policies that nourish and encourage that which is good in its students and prepares them academically for what will be expected of them by society (including passing the boards & qualifying for a license but much more than that in terms of forming their professional character). A good school has clinical facilities, laboratories, libraries and other facilities sufficient to provide a quality education to its student body (that's the stuff that the accrediting body for med schools looks at every few years and I can't imagine any school that doesn't make the grade in that regard).

Waiting out a year means that you may get nothing next year. It also reduces the number of years you'll work as a physician by one (or means you'll need to work an extra year before retirement). This could have implications for retirement savings, lifetime earnings and the like.

SpongeBobDrPants · Apr 27, 2007

Chrissy said:
Hello,

I am currently a post-bacc student at Penn. This summer I am considering taking physics at Villanova University because it is less than half the tuition relative to Penn summer courses. In general, will adcoms be alarmed that I took a difficult course like physics outside a formal, ivy-league post bacc? I have taken OChem and several upper level bios at Penn so far. I will be taking a leave of absence from my job due to the intensity of the course so cost is a serious issue for me, but I also don't want it to have a negative impact on my application. Thanks so much for your help.

chrissy

It shouldn't be a problem. Lots of people take summer school courses at colleges other than the one they regularly attend. Just do well in it and it will be fine.

Madame · Apr 27, 2007

abmuk said:
Greetings,

I am a Pre-Med major soon to be Biology major/French minor.

I have heard that certain med schools view certain universities better than others. Is this true? If so, generally which ones are the most respected?

And what is the truth about how community colleges are viewed? Are they really despised by adcom's?

Thanks!

Schools that admit very bright applicants and offer a rigorous course of study in the sciences with meaningful distinction between poor, fair, good, very good, and excellent performance in the course work (that is to say no grade inflation) and that provide for opportunities to distinguish oneself outside of the classroom through extracurricular activities are going to be viewed by adcoms as being "good schools". Those that are less rigorous, engage in grade inflation and offer limited opportunities for students to distinguish themselves outside of the classroom (or fail to encourage students to seek extracurricular activities due to poor advising and a failure to direct students to intersting and useful summer activities/employment opportunities) are going to be considered poorer schools.

The bad rap that community colleges get comes mostly from the situation that we see with once in awhile. A student at one of these "good schools" skips a pre-req known to be very difficult at that shchool and takes the same course at a community college or a poorer school (one with grade inflation, or a less talented student body such that the curve is more generous to the talented student than it was "back home").

Medical School Admissions: How can I improve my chances?

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