The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

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sumstorm

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From my previous post on vet careers, I found it interesting how people viewed different aspects of different fields, so I thought we might be able to compile a list about fields & specialties including what is good, bad, and otherwise (from our individual point of views) about each one.

Can anyone tell that I am experiencing short-timer's syndrom? 2 weeks left of work!

So, to start off....

Zoo vet:
good - variety of animals, unique work environment, challenging cases, generalist skills, ecological contribution, opportunities for research

bad - competitive, few positions available, lower pay, in smaller zoos must substitute other work to earn adequate pay, bad publicity, often government position, suseptible to economic/funding issues, prone to controversy, may need to relocate for opportunities, on call frequently, multi-level political/diplomatic skills

ugly - poisoned animals, tragic accidents, politics, inbreeding related congenital issues, uninformed public opinion
 
I've tried to pick out some of the features that are unique to equine pvt practice, but some things are shared across all fields of vet med.

Equine Private Practice
Good:
- Get to work outside
- Independent work
- Higher salary at peak of career for practice owners
- Lots of client contact, potential for long-term relationships with clients and patients, who may live for several decades
- Very hands on -- you get to do every part/type of patient care
- There are horses all over the country -- may not be as limited a job market as zoo med
Bad:
- Have to be outside when it's (check all that apply) raining, snowing, hot, humid, cold, muddy, windy
- Lots of client contact 😉
- Spend a lot of time driving (and thus not earning money)
- Often rely on owner to restrain horse with little or no help
- Physically demanding work with the potential of getting injured
- Long days plus being on call
- Often start out with poor pay
- Often must be able to run own business
- Work is seasonal -- you don't have time to eat or sleep during spring, but late fall and winter leave you wondering if you can pay the bills
Ugly:
- When owners treat the horse as 100% commodity and won't let you treat because the horse won't be useful afterward, even if the horse will have good QOL.
- Racetrack trainers asking you to inject the horse's joints every month so it can keep racing until all the cartilage is gone, saddleseat people soring and using ghastly shoeing techniques, etc. Stereotypical abuse stuff that is rare but does happen.
- Laminitis. Hate it, hate it, hate it.
Depends:
- Jobs tend to be, if not out in really rural areas, on the very outskirts of urbanized area. It's a bad field to be in if you want to live in a city like NYC or DC.
- Lameness evaluations -- some people like doing lameness work, others don't.
- Horse people are a different breed than cat and dog owners -- whether you like them as an aggregate (there will always be outliers, i.e., saints and jerks) depends on your personality.
 
I'm probably not qualified to post this, and if Chriss wants to chime it, that would be awesome:

Lab Animal Vet:

The Good:
High Demand
Don't have to do residency to get boarded
High(er) pay (esp. starting)
Many different types of animals
Unique cases
Get to do research (without the grant writing)
Many different places to work (Pharma, Government(USDA, Mil. DOD), Industry)
Very problem based
No clients

The Bad:
Research based (much of it)
Not your own boss
Cooperate
LOT of paperwork and regulatory compliance
Have to be the "bad guy" in terms of what can/can't be done
Conflict of interest (animal well being vs. needs of the researcher (researcher signs your pay check))
No clients
Less hands on Clinical/Surgical

The Ugly:
Horrible Public Perception (your the bad guy)
Euthanasia is common place
Have to work with and deal with PhD's (ego's)
Not why most of us are here (who wanted to be a vet @ 14 to someday treat 1000 mice?)
 
Would love to hear from someone who might know something about public health or something along those lines.
 
No Imagination said:
:

Lab Animal Vet:

The Good:
Don't have to do residency to get boarded
Click to expand...

So the alternative of doing a residency is 6 years work experience plus _??__ published papers? Hmmm not sure about the numbers, gonna check online again...
Just curious is this true for most residencies or just lab animal?
 
I've heard different things from different people. I've also heard the test for cert. was very difficult.

I think it is 5 years fulltime + 1 (non clinical) publication to be eligible
 
No Imagination said:
I'm probably not qualified to post this, and if Chriss wants to chime it, that would be awesome:

Lab Animal Vet:

The Good:
High Demand
Don't have to do residency to get boarded
High(er) pay (esp. starting)
Many different types of animals
Unique cases
Get to do research (without the grant writing)
Many different places to work (Pharma, Government(USDA, Mil. DOD), Industry)
Very problem based
No clients

The Bad:
Research based (much of it)
Not your own boss
Cooperate
LOT of paperwork and regulatory compliance
Have to be the "bad guy" in terms of what can/can't be done
Conflict of interest (animal well being vs. needs of the researcher (researcher signs your pay check))
No clients
Less hands on Clinical/Surgical

The Ugly:
Horrible Public Perception (your the bad guy)
Euthanasia is common place
Have to work with and deal with PhD's (ego's)
Not why most of us are here (who wanted to be a vet @ 14 to someday treat 1000 mice?)
Click to expand...

Having done lab research for several years, I have to disagree with a few things.
I would not call the vet the "bad guy" because IACUC must sign off on all experiments done at the institution. This is an entire committee, not one vet.

Having worked with several Drs (both DVM and PhD), and I have to say that the DVMs are definitely the bigger egos than the PhDs (of course there are extremes in both cases). In my experiences, our PhDs have been nothing but grateful to our vet.

Also, there is a lot of euthanasia in lab medicine, but I can't think of a case where the vet is the person that does this (perhaps with primates).

Finallly, I can't speak for all lab animal vets, but I don't think their case load is problem based. Our vets make routine visits to all of the animal rooms (I think once every two weeks). I think that's the norm, but I can't say for sure.

One thing is for sure, they are an incredibly valuable asset to animal-based research!
 
jglovicz said:
Having done lab research for several years, I have to disagree with a few things.
I would not call the vet the "bad guy" because IACUC must sign off on all experiments done at the institution. This is an entire committee, not one vet.

Having worked with several Drs (both DVM and PhD), and I have to say that the DVMs are definitely the bigger egos than the PhDs (of course there are extremes in both cases). In my experiences, our PhDs have been nothing but grateful to our vet.

Also, there is a lot of euthanasia in lab medicine, but I can't think of a case where the vet is the person that does this (perhaps with primates).

Finallly, I can't speak for all lab animal vets, but I don't think their case load is problem based. Our vets make routine visits to all of the animal rooms (I think once every two weeks). I think that's the norm, but I can't say for sure.

One thing is for sure, they are an incredibly valuable asset to animal-based research!
Click to expand...

I agree with most of this - Was making generalizations about the field however.

Didn't make any reference to case load however

At my University, the LAV (and IACUC) has the final say on what can and can't get done and how it gets done. LAV seems to have a lot of say, and the IACUC tends to follow the LAV recommendation(s).

In terms of "The bad guy" I was refering to public perception "What kind of vet are you", "I'm a Lab Animal Vet (or Researcher)", "Oh ::Sad face:: You put acid in bunny eyes?"

Just because the LAV isn't doing the euthanasia themselves, doesn't mean they are not 'part' of the process - it def. takes it's toll.

As a PhD student, I have to disagree about the ego vs. the vets... but lets talk about that in another thread if we want 🙂
 
No Imagination said:
I agree with most of this - Was making generalizations about the field however.

Didn't make any reference to case load however

At my University, the LAV (and IACUC) has the final say on what can and can't get done and how it gets done. LAV seems to have a lot of say, and the IACUC tends to follow the LAV recommendation(s).

In terms of "The bad guy" I was refering to public perception "What kind of vet are you", "I'm a Lab Animal Vet (or Researcher)", "Oh ::Sad face:: You put acid in bunny eyes?"

Just because the LAV isn't doing the euthanasia themselves, doesn't mean they are not 'part' of the process - it def. takes it's toll.

As a PhD student, I have to disagree about the ego vs. the vets... but lets talk about that in another thread if we want 🙂
Click to expand...
Haha, fair enough 🙂. Just in my experiences, some DVMs have a superiority complex towards the PhDs (haha, or maybe it's the PhDs that have an inferiority complex...interesting). In any case, I'm sure it's just the individuals to which we have been exposed. And you are absolutely right, euthanasia is part of the process.
 
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I can mostly speak for Infectious Disease Public Health Vets in state/federal government even though alot of vets in public health work in alot of other capacities.


Good:
Get to travel a lot
No typical work day
Can work with a lot of different exoticdiseases
Get the "feel good" feeling when helping people
Challenging when you get to act as "disease detective"
Mostly (except in cases of response/emergency) have 9-5 jobs and weekends off (although you probably are on call a couple of weekends out of the month but most problems are worked out over phone)
A nice career ladder if you work with federal government with annual salary raises and good benefits and job security in the government (believe me when I say alot of people in gov. deserve to be let go but it is soo hard to lose your job once you are in it)
Lots of opportunities to be published
Can get sent all over the world on government pay attending conferences and as international disease consults depending on your job
Act as consultants to physicians and veterinarians in special cases
Get a lot of networking and fun opportunities (last week I got to go on the daily rounds with a zoo vet as they did their yearly disease panels and got a behind the scenes looks and interaction with most of the animals at the zoo and local aquarium)

Bad:
Have to deal with whiny people who are mostly ignorant of how diseases work and are treated and demand the government help them for free or solve all of their problems
If there is a disaster or outbreak (i.e. hurricane or swine flu) can get deployed for long periods of time into less than optimal living conditions (with Katrina my vet boss had to go into the NO in a boat all day for a public health response with the CDC and then at night had to share a hotel room with no running water with 3 other people, similar situation for recent hurricanes)
You don't work directly with animals every day as most vets do
Might have to go into an area and recommend a herd be euthanized or quarantined
Sometimes strained relationships with some of the locals as they can perceive you as the "bad guy"
In the public health world you are considered a step below public health physicians even though you might get paid more than them and know more than them
Have to do a lot of public speaking (not so bad because I enjoy this but some people don't)

Ugly:
GOVERNMENT/BEURACRACY/POLITICS . . need I say more . .??
 
General Practice

The good:
Building long standing client/patient relationships
Excellent place to be if you enjoy client education/client councilling
A good mix of routine and interesting cases
Potential to cultivate subspecialties that may not be good for full time work(i.e. SA breeding, specializing in toy breed Sx, etc.)
Getting to see many of your patients from the beginning of life to the end.
Equal potential for working for someone, or owning your own practice depending on your preference

The bad:
Routine medicine can get very....well, routine
Clients who either don't understand or refuse to follow treatment plans
Toeing the moral line between making enough money and not turning away cases that can't afford it
Very time demanding-between seeing many cases and making follow up/lab calls, many GP vets keep hours well outside of the 9-5 range
Telling clients what they don't want to hear-from "it's time to stop treating" to "I'm very sorry but the laws require me to tell you to do this procedure before I can dispense this medication"

The ugly:
Clients can be beligerant, angry, drunk, etc, etc....and there are always those clients that think vet work should be free and are happy to get in your face about it, and you can't always pick your clients.
Euthanasias never come alone. In most practices I've worked in they always come in chunks and the emotional drain can get to you.
 
Also, I would love input from anyone who has done their own research projects (even mini ones). I did a two semester stint in a lab, but I was a peon and never actually got to do much with the projects or see the final results.
 
This is just what I was looking for! I am 'discovering' insights that I didn't have on my own (or in fields that I haven't had a chance to experience.) I really appreciate all the contributions...happy to have anyone add on to any of the fields/specialties.

Do any of the fields have 'long term' concerns? Like I know some LA vets feel they can't perform in the field as they age.... but I was wondering do specialists who do a lot of surgery hvae the same concern (hands becoming problematic?) Are there issues in long term health for vets (ie groomers often end up with carpal tunnel issues)?
 
sumstorm said:
This is just what I was looking for! I am 'discovering' insights that I didn't have on my own (or in fields that I haven't had a chance to experience.) I really appreciate all the contributions...happy to have anyone add on to any of the fields/specialties.

Do any of the fields have 'long term' concerns? Like I know some LA vets feel they can't perform in the field as they age.... but I was wondering do specialists who do a lot of surgery hvae the same concern (hands becoming problematic?) Are there issues in long term health for vets (ie groomers often end up with carpal tunnel issues)?
Click to expand...

I don't know if this counts..but my equine vet just recently had hip replacement surgery at age 47 and has a lot of knee issues too...so like you said, LA does take its toll on the body...
 
GP does have some long term concerns for hand arthritis from surgery and injuries from lifting large dogs, but there are lots of modern get arounds like lift tables and hiring strapping young men to do the lifting for you. ^.~
 
Does anyone one know about food production or large animal?
 
katryn said:
General Practice

Potential to cultivate subspecialties that may not be good for full time work(i.e. SA breeding, specializing in toy breed Sx, etc.)

I will have to speak up here and say that SA Therio/repro (dogs) can indeed be a full time + job, without the need to deal with the yucky GP work, if you want it to be, and are good enough at what you do. 😎 But, you do have to be a show dog person, and know how to deal with them. That may well be the "bad" part, and I am a former one of those "bad" people. 😛
Click to expand...
 
THE GOOD
  • The animals under your care are owned by the shelter (of course after the holding period) so you don't need permission from owners to perform most procedures.
  • Lots of practice for new vets!
  • You can feel really good about yourself knowing that what you do helps animals that would otherwise not get help
  • First dibs at adopting the most unique of animals😛
  • No nasty clients (for the most part) - and no clients in general means that you don't have to watch your mouth (e.g. "ew that's so gross!" would not be something you want to say infront of a client about his/her dog's ear)
  • Get to be the animal equivalent of a medical examiner in cruelty cases and help get people prosecuted
  • You're not in charge of figuring out finances
THE BAD
  • Procedures you can/cannot do really depend on the finances/philosophies/and staffing of the shelter.
  • You see lots of animals in pain, not just physical
  • Insane workload for a large shelter, and constant stress knowing that you ended your day with so many more animals that still need you that you didn't get to
  • Lots of routine procedures
  • Low pay (I know a vet who's probably in his 60s now and can't see a viable retirement plan for a long time)
  • High turnover rate for staff including vet techs
THE UGLY
  • cruelty, abuse, neglect in the worst imaginable scenarios
  • Lots of euthanasias for things that can easily be helped (e.g. ringworm)
 
Minnerbelle, I think you gave a very good synopsis of shelter med. I do have to add though that "not being in charge of finances" is not always true - the vet I worked with was the medical director of the shelter and she did have to do a lot of budget stuff. She also told me that her salary was pretty comparable to other vets in the area. I imagine it really depends on what city / state you are in. Around here shelter vets are scarce and thus make pretty good money.

And just throwing another type of vet out there - I don't know enough about it to do a real write up - but I know a vet who does relief work only. She says she likes to always be somewhere different and moving around. She was booked up months in advance - and made really good money. So that might be appealing to someone who wanted a little of everything paired with good money and less responsibility for a practice.
 
I agree with bunnity that shelter medicine does not have inherently low pay compared to other aspects of veterinary medicine.

And regarding this comment:
Minnerbelle said:
Procedures you can/cannot do really depend on the finances/philosophies/and staffing of the shelter.
Click to expand...

Depending on the philosophies of the shelter this can actually be a huge plus. Unlike private practice, the vet is not the revenue generating source of the shelter. So when consideration is given to procedures, the cost is evaluated on actual expenses: drug cost, instruments, tech time, vet time.

So when that kitten with a broken leg comes in that needs an FHO, the procedure is considered more on the actual cost and prognosis compared to the "Retail price" if it were to be done at a private practice.

If the doctor wants to do a prophylactic gastroplexy while they are spaying the Great Dane, its more a consideration of potential benefit and the cost of additional 15 minutes of surgery time, again as opposed to the "Retail price"
 
Nicely put, david.

To add:
While much of what we do is routine, with the number of animals we see, we encounter some pretty interesting things in surgery, e.g., a hermaphroditic cat. Sometimes even the "routine" can quickly become anything but that! Having a good donor base has helped us immensely, and our community has rallied behind many of the more challenging cases time & time again.

We also help low-income individuals where I work, and I find that incredibly rewarding. It often comes down to S/N surgery vs. surrendering an animal (especially in this economy for some), and it's great to be in a position to keep these pets from becoming another shelter statistic.

As for the ugly: I would most definitely add hoarder cases to the list. They're in a class all their own; we've had everything from guinea pig to exotic bird to horse cases, and then some. 🙁
 
Thanks for adding on David, Guppy, and Bunnity! I think you're all spot on with your comments. I guess I should've really emphasized at the top of my post that there are like gazillion and one types of shelters with different needs/functions so it's really hard to generalize.

Now that I think of it, the vet who was complaining about low pay was actually getting paid pretty decently (as in definitely above average). He was more complaining that his salary was much lower than had he gone into another field! It just happens to be in a part of california where you can't find a home for under a million bucks, so all the vets felt really poor even though they really weren't. Totally forgot about that. My bad! The shelter I worked at was actually a really well funded place with over 150 staff members (including like 4-5 full time vets). They were also able to pay $400/day for relief vets.

Sorry for not being clear about finances. When I said that shelter vets don't have to figure out finances, I didn't mean to say that they don't have to figure out budgeting. The vets I worked with were definitely in charge of the department's budgeting for vet services. I meant more that you don't have to worry about generating a revenue. The rest of the shelter's usually responsible for that (though I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't the case in some shelters).

Oooh, and Guppy I totally know what you mean about the hoarders! I'm not sure if you guys would agree, but I'd also tack on "crazy do-gooders" onto the list too. Shelters seem to be a magnet for really weird volunteers and people in the community who are trying to help. Sometimes they just really really get in the way and you want them to go away! Lots of volunteers are amazing people, but some (and for some reason especially feral cat ladies) annoy the crap out of the vet staff.
 
Minnerbelle said:
Oooh, and Guppy I totally know what you mean about the hoarders! I'm not sure if you guys would agree, but I'd also tack on "crazy do-gooders" onto the list too. Shelters seem to be a magnet for really weird volunteers and people in the community who are trying to help. Sometimes they just really really get in the way and you want them to go away! Lots of volunteers are amazing people, but some (and for some reason especially feral cat ladies) annoy the crap out of the vet staff.
Click to expand...

Hahaha YES. Shelters and wildlife places seem to have that trait.
I must admit though that I was one of the dreaded "rabbit volunteers" at my shelter - as well as working with the regular staff for my internship - so I got to be on both sides of that very interesting relationship.
 
stoby08 said:
Does anyone one know about food production or large animal?
Click to expand...

*sound of crickets chirping* --And that's apparently the BIG veterinary problem right now.

FYI: There was an interesting thread on here (I think about this time last year) about vegans wanting to go into LA medicine--mainly to ensure that LAs are treated humanely.
 
This is a great thread! I'm learning all sorts of pros/cons that I had never considered about areas that I thought I was familiar with. Thanks for the input everyone!
 
see my comments in bold
No Imagination said:
I'm probably not qualified to post this, and if Chris wants to chime it, that would be awesome:

Lab Animal Vet:

The Good:
High Demand
Don't have to do residency to get boarded
High(er) pay (esp. starting)
Many different types of animals
Unique cases
Get to do research (without the grant writing)
Many different places to work (Pharma, Government(USDA, Mil. DOD), Industry)
Very problem based
No clients

The Bad:
Research based (much of it)
Not your own boss
Cooperate
LOT of paperwork and regulatory compliance
Have to be the "bad guy" in terms of what can/can't be done
Conflict of interest (animal well being vs. needs of the researcher (researcher signs your pay check))haaaaaahaaaaaaa researcher signing paycheck!!!Ummm nope that is not the case 99% of the time
No clients(your clients are the researchers
Less hands on Clinical/SurgicalNot true if you are a clinical lab animal vet

The Ugly:
Horrible Public Perception (your the bad guy)that is why you educate, not everyone assumes that you are the bad guy
Euthanasia is common placeIt is not very common for the veterinarian to have to euthanize many animals, so indirectly that may be true, but you also have the advantage that your clients legally can't leave and not do anything for the patient
Have to work with and deal with PhD's (ego's)Not all PhD's have egos. Many are quite knowledgeable about their research so you have to learn how to work with them (generally if you respect them, the do the same for you. You also work with MD, DDS....many many other types of "doctors"
Not why most of us are here (who wanted to be a vet @ 14 to someday treat 1000 mice?)This is by far the worst blanket statement I have ever heard about lab animal medicine (I am not offended, just amused) trust me you have plenty of other things going on then just treating mice😉
Click to expand...
 
No Imagination said:
I've heard different things from different people. I've also heard the test for cert. was very difficult.

I think it is 5 years fulltime + 1 (non clinical) publication to be eligible
Click to expand...

6 years + first authorship on a scientific research paper published in a peer reviewed article....oh and you still have to pass that pesky board exam.
 
Chris, how far along are you in your residency, if you don't mind my asking? Also, what are some more day to day things about lab animal med that people might not think about? It's something I'm interested in after working with some lab animal vets, but I would really appreciate some insight from someone like you who is obviously pretty knowledgeable and experienced.
 
Pandacinny said:
Chris, how far along are you in your residency, if you don't mind my asking? Also, what are some more day to day things about lab animal med that people might not think about? It's something I'm interested in after working with some lab animal vets, but I would really appreciate some insight from someone like you who is obviously pretty knowledgeable and experienced.
Click to expand...

Sorry missed this before. I am just finishing year 2 of 3. As for day to day stuff I wrote out a long answer to that on another thread....I can't remember which one but if someone remembers maybe they can link it. Do not have time to type that out again now.

Edit- Here it is:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=8098142#post8098142
 
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