Quitting Medicine, going back for PhD

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Jim Henderson

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Well, as one of the creators of this network and as author of the Big Guide to Medical School, I'd like to announce a major career decision.

I'm quitting medicine as of next August.

Initially, back in 1994, I took the GRE and MCAT. At the last moment I decided against going to 8-10 years of school straight, so went straight MD. Part of this was wanting to "get out in the real world" and part of this was wanting to go back to a small town, like where I grew up. I promised my undergrad profs that I would practice for 10 years then go back, or at least consider it.

After 7 years of Family Medicine I will be hanging up the stethoscope for the microscope. Mainly, this is out of a love of research, and of the intellectual stimulation and interaction with peers on a scholarly level. I have to say, medicine these days seems to be mind numbing, full of defensive medicine and politics. Since being embroiled in an ongoing and frivolous "shotgun" lawsuit lasting for 3 years, along with 2 other doctors, my view of human nature has declined progressively... to the point where making every decision on the basis of "will this decision cover my ass adequately" has made me speed up my career path change by 3 years. This will break the hearts of my patients, and will sting me and my family financially. I will miss helping people and miss most of my patients… but life is too short not to follow my heart.

I will be visiting Universities this fall, in anticipation of entering a neuroscience (basic science oriented) PhD program in the fall of 2005.
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I'm sorry to hear of your declining view of human nature, but I think it's awesome that you are making this career change to pursue your dream. Good luck and keep us posted!
 
My uncle is a straight MD who detests patients and does almost exclusively research. He sees patients once a year for one month only because his hospital makes him. And he loves doing research. Do what makes YOU happy. And good luck!
 
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I far from detest patients, but do detest the ambulance-chasing mentality of the current system. Clearly I'm not rich (I still drive a scooter to work) though I see 25 patients per day, make about $120k per year, and am $175000 in debt (home and student loans, not credit card det). I've been sued once in 7 years, it's ongoing and I'm confident I (and the other two victims who were sued along with me) will win... but I really, really, really, really, hate the current tort system and lottery mentality of our country.

I love my patients. I even loved the patient who sued me, though I feel very betrayed. Perhaps I'm too emotional... but as I become more cynical, I feel my humanity slipping away. I went into medicine because of my humanity, and am going into research to preserve that. I do not want to become a hardenned a$$hole like some of my colleagues have become. I used to just think those who were like that were jerks... but now I see it is some sort of primative defense mechanism they use to survive. I do not want to turn into that just so I can have a nice house on a golf course.

As I look back at my life since high school... my happiest professional moments were discovering new things in the lab... the answer is clear.
 
In a sick and sad way, Thank you for posting this. I've had this same 'inkling' in the pit of my stomach about the current state of health care and law. And have often thought about clinical research to 'spice-up' the MD side of things.

I'll make sure to stick it through with the MD/PhD program that I'm in.

Too bad that CYA has become the golden diagnostic for most procedures... :thumbdown: :(
 
Greetings Jim and welcome back to medical research. I hope that you find research as rewarding as you remember! I have a few questions for you that I hope will be informative to everyone, including myself.

Jim Henderson said:
I have to say, medicine these days seems to be mind numbing, full of defensive medicine and politics.
Click to expand...

Is this the general sentiment among your clinical colleagues as well? Do you find that happiness levels are different among primary care providers when compared to specialists? Private practice vs. academics?

Jim Henderson said:
This will break the hearts of my patients, and will sting me and my family financially.
Click to expand...

You talk later about your debt level, and I wonder how you were able to make the finances work for you to leave clinical medicine? We all know that it's a big jump to go from $120k/yr to ~$20k/yr. Do you have children? How does your family feel about relocating and your career change?

Jim Henderson said:
I will be visiting Universities this fall, in anticipation of entering a neuroscience (basic science oriented) PhD program in the fall of 2005.
Click to expand...

I wish you luck with this and I'm sure you will have no problems going where you want to go. I wonder, do you feel as though you need the PhD at this point to proceed doing basic science research? I assume you have talked to some in basic science already and asked this question, how do they feel about it? I wonder because of the age old extended post-doc vs. PhD question.

Do you have any plans to keep up your clinical skills during your research training?

Well, I'll probably think of more questions. This an excellent opportunity for some of us to think about what it's like to go the MD route and switch into the basic scientist career. I appreciate that you came back to SDN to talk to us, and thanks in advance for your answers.
 
Neuronix said:
Greetings Jim and welcome back to medical research. I hope that you find research as rewarding as you remember! I have a few questions for you that I hope will be informative to everyone, including myself.
Click to expand...
Thank you for asking these questions. Often it takes some one as experienced as you Neuronix to fish out the most helpful information.

Again, thanks to all for this excellent (yet sad) experience to inform the rest of us hopeful Medical Scientists. :thumbup:
 
Jim Henderson said:
Well, as one of the creators of this network and as author of the Big Guide to Medical School, I'd like to announce a major career decision.

I'm quitting medicine as of next August.

Initially, back in 1994, I took the GRE and MCAT. At the last moment I decided against going to 8-10 years of school straight, so went straight MD. Part of this was wanting to "get out in the real world" and part of this was wanting to go back to a small town, like where I grew up. I promised my undergrad profs that I would practice for 10 years then go back, or at least consider it.

After 7 years of Family Medicine I will be hanging up the stethoscope for the microscope. Mainly, this is out of a love of research, and of the intellectual stimulation and interaction with peers on a scholarly level. I have to say, medicine these days seems to be mind numbing, full of defensive medicine and politics. Since being embroiled in an ongoing and frivolous "shotgun" lawsuit lasting for 3 years, along with 2 other doctors, my view of human nature has declined progressively... to the point where making every decision on the basis of "will this decision cover my ass adequately" has made me speed up my career path change by 3 years. This will break the hearts of my patients, and will sting me and my family financially. I will miss helping people and miss most of my patients? but life is too short not to follow my heart.

I will be visiting Universities this fall, in anticipation of entering a neuroscience (basic science oriented) PhD program in the fall of 2005.
Click to expand...

:(
 
Jim,

I can't agree with you more regarding the state of medical practice in the USA. Lawyers and insurance companies sure haven't made things easy for physicians.

I admire you for following your heart and deciding to do what is best for you...even if this should throw a wrench into your living and financial situation. But in the end, we must do what makes us happy or we haven't lived at all.

Unlike you, I haven't had the opportunity to practice medicine as an MD as I still have a little ways to go before completing the MD/PhD program. But I will say this...as a medical student, I was able to appreciate some of what you were saying (the so called "cover-your-ass-medicine" can definitely be mind numbing). And during my clinical clerkships, I considered almost everyday about quitting medical school and pursuing post-doc opportunities.

Speaking of which, you may not have to do a PhD program if you really want to do research. Now if you WANT to get a PhD education (which does have value), by all means go for it. I don't see why you would have a hard time getting a spot at a graduate school. But as an MD, you certainly have the opportunity to perform research in the capacity of a post-doc. There have been a few MD's that worked in my previous thesis lab and did just fine. Just food for thought.

Cheers :)
 
You certainly don't owe any explanations to us! Just one question - you stated that, "Midway though my second year I almost quit. I was ready to quit." from http://www.studentdoctor.net/guide/medstudent/index/intro.html

I'm sure there are a lot of students who went through this phase as well. Looking back, did you always know in the back of your mind that you would switch careers? Good luck and thanks for helping create this site!
 
Jim Henderson said:
I will be visiting Universities this fall, in anticipation of entering a neuroscience (basic science oriented) PhD program in the fall of 2005.
Click to expand...

Although you specifically said basic-science oriented Ph.D., Baylor (unless you don't want to go to school here again)offers a clinical scientist training program in which you can get a masters or a Ph.D. The requirements can be found here: http://www.bcm.edu/cstp/admissions.htm and seems to be tracked towards training faculty for independent research.

The faculty mentors include people in the neuroscience field such as H. Zoghbi (Howard Hughes Investigator) and S. Appel (former chair of Neurolgy). I don't know how "clinical" your thesis project has to be.

There is an mentored clinical award that offers salary support (a lot more than what grad students make) too.
http://www.bcm.edu/cstp/awards.htm

Just another idea; good luck
 
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However upsetting lawsuits are,they are a fact of life in our society,not only in medicine but in many other businesses.You should not allow this malpractice accusation to be taken as a personal attack,it is the patient and their lawyer trying to make money.Dont let them stop you from making a good living.Thats why we have malpractice insurance to protect us financially.There is no simple escape from the challenges of the workplace even in medical research there are people who try to stick it to you in one way or another.(winning the lottery is one nice escape!)You should speak to other physicians who have gone through this difficult process and returned to clinical medicine,it can be done.If you feel that road is no longer for you then good luck with your new course.
 
I have to say, medicine these days seems to be mind numbing

I wonder if this has to do with your choice of specialty? I've noticed that, except for a small minority of clinicians, the work has a tremendous capacity to become very mundane, very fast.
 
Jim Henderson said:
I far from detest patients, but do detest the ambulance-chasing mentality of the current system. Clearly I'm not rich (I still drive a scooter to work) though I see 25 patients per day, make about $120k per year, and am $175000 in debt .
Click to expand...

Jim as a Pathologist I feel for you, you guys in FM definitely get the short end of the stick. A lousy 120K a year after 7 years??? I knew it was bad but that is horrendous, you can make more selling health insurance part time!

Seriously reconsider the neuroscience thing though, right now youre bitter, a little hurt, but seriously, a PhD in Neurosci is like a fancy Art degree and there arent any cute girls you could even hit on in class! I could come up with a better waste of your time, but most would involve hauling scrap metal out of Iraq to sell on the black market.

Consider switching fields, reapply to radiology. Starting salaries in California (gulp!) are near 350 (that pre-partner). Or if labs are your thing do path (but there already too many of us, so pick rads). Dont do anything rash, heck I even thought about walking away last Friday. I just hope you arent married with kids, because if I had a wife and decided to go back to grad school, there's no doubt she would on the phone with divorce attorneys the same day.
 
" a PhD in Neurosci is like a fancy Art degree and there arent any cute girls you could even hit on in class!"

Hmm, I'm curious, what do you mean, LADoc?

Not that there's anything wrong with an Arts degree (meaning humanities??), though it is perhaps not ideal for basic science research.
 
Thank your for your replies.

Well, I'm married with one child. My wife and I started dating as sophomores in high school, when I was going to be a journalist... I told her when we got engaged years later that I was going to be a doctor but eventually do research and we would never be wealthy.

Regarding the post doc idea... I considered it but am far enough out from my undergrad research that I feel I need the formal training of a phd program.

Um, this has always been my plan... I'm just speeding it up by 3 years.

It would be better financially for me to wait 3 more years, but my student loans are down to 435 per month and hopefully I'll have about 40-50 k in cash and get a tuition waiver plus a 20-23 k stipend during grad school. My wife is a nurse so will make 30-40 k. Since we got by on 30 k for years of residency, one sallary... this won't be too much of a stretch.

I have no desire to entery pathology or radiology... and I'd be back to making 30 k a year as a resident anyway during that time anyway.

I have no desire to make 350 k per year but God bless you if you do. If my life leaves me cuz I enter grad school, that would invalidate the premise of our marriage I guess.... seeing that we've been together for 17 years and this is a long term plan anyway... I doubt she will.

Plus, since residency I've gone through multiple depressive mood swings, some severe.... that never happened when I was pursuing research.

I don't have time to address all the replies but in summary... I've always been a professor at heart, essentially sucked into a clinical career that is hard to get out of based on a decision that I made 11 years ago... believe me, it's taking a lot more courage for me to make this change than to say "screw it" and keep treating colds for $120 k per year.

BTW... the only people who make $350 k per year in Iowa are trial lawyers and college basketball coaches :p
 
Jim Henderson said:
My wife and I started dating as sophomores in high school, when I was going to be a journalist... I told her when we got engaged years later that I was going to be a doctor but eventually do research and we would never be wealthy.
Click to expand...

Wow, I need to move to Iowa, the last GF I had knew I applying for jobs and started house hunting for us (and no I had NO intention of marrying her, she just did it on her own). The houses were all 2.1 million +, I told I was going to make some money but NOT that much for Heaven's sake. She promptly bailed.

Im sure in some self help book at Borders you can read how fulfilling it can be to switch careers. Sure, usually the plan is to upsize not downsize tho. Im not sure you fully realize the life of an academic scientist. It can make the most malpractice ridden group look like a summer vacation in the French countryside. Think Gulag, think East Germany, think building the pyramids. Academic science is life I wouldnt wish on my mortal enemy (or maybe I would). :smuggrin:

I love reading about science too, but Jim its a HOBBY not a career. Yeah when youre in college everyone wants to a professor because they seem so smart and put together but the modern reality of climbing up the academic ranks makes constructing a true Capitalist economy in Russia or winning over the hearts and minds of Radical Islam look like child play!

Switch groups, switch locations, heck go to New Zealand or something for a few years. Maybe pick up a new skill. But dumping it all together seems crazy, your wife cant be completely silent on this? I was on the phone with a guy who PMd from this site last night in your very same shoes.

Word to the wise not just for you Jim: Being in LA I see people following their dreams everywhere, all the actors, actoresses, models, etc. They live with roomates, move around alot, take crappy service jobs to make ends meet and guess what Jim ARENT ANY HAPPIER THAN ANYONE ELSE. If anything they constantly whine. Why? Because being poor and following your dreams (unless you plan on becoming a saint) sucks far more than doing something that is slightly unbearable and being well off.
 
Jim Henderson said:
Thank your for your replies.

Well, I'm married with one child. My wife and I started dating as sophomores in high school, when I was going to be a journalist... I told her when we got engaged years later that I was going to be a doctor but eventually do research and we would never be wealthy.

Regarding the post doc idea... I considered it but am far enough out from my undergrad research that I feel I need the formal training of a phd program.

Um, this has always been my plan... I'm just speeding it up by 3 years.

It would be better financially for me to wait 3 more years, but my student loans are down to 435 per month and hopefully I'll have about 40-50 k in cash and get a tuition waiver plus a 20-23 k stipend during grad school. My wife is a nurse so will make 30-40 k. Since we got by on 30 k for years of residency, one sallary... this won't be too much of a stretch.

I have no desire to entery pathology or radiology... and I'd be back to making 30 k a year as a resident anyway during that time anyway.

I have no desire to make 350 k per year but God bless you if you do. If my life leaves me cuz I enter grad school, that would invalidate the premise of our marriage I guess.... seeing that we've been together for 17 years and this is a long term plan anyway... I doubt she will.

Plus, since residency I've gone through multiple depressive mood swings, some severe.... that never happened when I was pursuing research.

I don't have time to address all the replies but in summary... I've always been a professor at heart, essentially sucked into a clinical career that is hard to get out of based on a decision that I made 11 years ago... believe me, it's taking a lot more courage for me to make this change than to say "screw it" and keep treating colds for $120 k per year.

BTW... the only people who make $350 k per year in Iowa are trial lawyers and college basketball coaches :p
Click to expand...

Great post and good for you for following your dreams!

I use to wonder why docs get sued all the time but then I read LaDoc's post and it suddenly became clear. Anyone motivated to pursue a career because of money can't possibly be very good at it.
 
LADoc00 said:
Wow, I need to move to Iowa, the last GF I had knew I applying for jobs and started house hunting for us (and no I had NO intention of marrying her, she just did it on her own). The houses were all 2.1 million +, I told I was going to make some money but NOT that much for Heaven's sake. She promptly bailed.
Click to expand...
OOOooohhh.... Ouch. Good thing she's gone. Gotta have the lady/man that will stick it through the rough times. Because, there will probably be more rough than easy times as a future doctor/scientist.

Best of luck in weeding through the legitimate ones down the road. :thumbup:
 
Jim,

Thanks for the follow up post. I hope all goes well. And, yes, depending on where you live, a graduate stipend can be more than enough to live on comfortably.

I remember that my graduate stipend this summer, combined with the 'stress' or lack there of (compared to medical studies), made me think twice before pursing the MD in addition to the PhD. The graduate student life can be enjoyable and rewarding if you balance it well.

Best of luck! :thumbup: :luck: :luck: :luck: :thumbup:

-Salty
 
Good lord! What happened to make you so bitter about EVERYTHING? I realize that you're probably just going through a rough time and are just venting, but still...

I don't think I've EVER met anyone THAT unsatisfied with being a physician, including the academics which you seem to hate so much.

Cheer up! You know what the Monty Python boys say:

NOOOOOOBODY exepects a Spanish Inquisition!!!

-X

LADoc00 said:
Wow, I need to move to Iowa, the last GF I had knew I applying for jobs and started house hunting for us (and no I had NO intention of marrying her, she just did it on her own). The houses were all 2.1 million +, I told I was going to make some money but NOT that much for Heaven's sake. She promptly bailed.

Im sure in some self help book at Borders you can read how fulfilling it can be to switch careers. Sure, usually the plan is to upsize not downsize tho. Im not sure you fully realize the life of an academic scientist. It can make the most malpractice ridden group look like a summer vacation in the French countryside. Think Gulag, think East Germany, think building the pyramids. Academic science is life I wouldnt wish on my mortal enemy (or maybe I would). :smuggrin:

I love reading about science too, but Jim its a HOBBY not a career. Yeah when youre in college everyone wants to a professor because they seem so smart and put together but the modern reality of climbing up the academic ranks makes constructing a true Capitalist economy in Russia or winning over the hearts and minds of Radical Islam look like child play!

Switch groups, switch locations, heck go to New Zealand or something for a few years. Maybe pick up a new skill. But dumping it all together seems crazy, your wife cant be completely silent on this? I was on the phone with a guy who PMd from this site last night in your very same shoes.

Word to the wise not just for you Jim: Being in LA I see people following their dreams everywhere, all the actors, actoresses, models, etc. They live with roomates, move around alot, take crappy service jobs to make ends meet and guess what Jim ARENT ANY HAPPIER THAN ANYONE ELSE. If anything they constantly whine. Why? Because being poor and following your dreams (unless you plan on becoming a saint) sucks far more than doing something that is slightly unbearable and being well off.
Click to expand...
 
LADoc, you're a totally different type of person than Jim, which to some extent invalidates any advice you can come up with..

Good luck with the transition Jim.
Much respect.
 
I echo that as well...best of luck to you Jim in your future endeavors!

Cheers.
 
Instead of applying to PhD programs, why not do a postdoc? You mentioned that you have some research experience already. A Postdoc will give you perhaps more flexibility and certainly a bit more money. There are plenty of grants available for MD's that want to do this. That said, a PhD is a good way to go as well. (I'm in the midst of the PhD phase of an MSTP).
 
I would have suggested a post-doc, but do what makes you happy. At least a PhD is more structured anyways.
 
Jim Henderson said:
Well, as one of the creators of this network...

I will be visiting Universities this fall, in anticipation of entering a neuroscience (basic science oriented) PhD program in the fall of 2005.
Click to expand...

Dear Dr. Henderson - I ran across this thread and it is truly remarkable. Threads in which practicing physicians are able to express their experiences and discuss their careers with students are one of the strengths of this forum and you, as well as Dr. Burnett, are to be commended for what you have accomplished here.

I have little to add except perhaps from my viewpoint, as an academic physician-scientist, that the advice of BPDavis regarding talking to someone like Huda Zohgbi is worth the phone call early in your search. In the last few years, there are "return to science" type programs (I am a mentor for one) that allow for "mostly" research time with little clinical work. They have strong tie-ins to NIH funding opportunities, and, ultimately, that is the goal for most who will head into a field like neurosciences. This approach can be quite compatible with your goal of getting a PhD as well.

I would be glad to discuss this or other aspects of your goals with you by PM. Same for thoughts about dealing with the stress of being implicated in a malpractice suit.

Aside to LADocOO - I hope you continue to post your interview experiences and thoughts as a private pathologist. I (n = 1, p= NS) love having an academic, primary (>60% time) research career and found even the path here to be mostly enjoyable, rewarding, and not compellingly stressful compared to my peers. But, your perspective is quite enlightening and one I would not otherwise hear.

Regards

"oldbear" professor
 
This sounds awful. Dr. Henderson sounds like an amazing physician and he stopped practicing bc of some bulls*it.....
 
Do you realize this thread is 8 years old and the OP has not posted on SDN since 2004?
 
vitalamine said:
Do you realize this thread is 8 years old and the OP has not posted on SDN since 2004?
Click to expand...


I bumped this because I related (also old) thread was bumped on the pre-allo board. It also was related to Dr. Henderson's story.
 
2296%20-%20forum%20late%20necromancy%20post%20thread.jpg
 
wolfie77 said:
I bumped this because I related (also old) thread was bumped on the pre-allo board. It also was related to Dr. Henderson's story.
Click to expand...

Any information about Jim Henderson? Did he do a PhD? Where is he now? Did he write any papers? I found a few Dr Henderson's who don't seem to be him.

I hope it worked out for him.


Dr Minarcik took a drawn out lawsuit as an opportunity to try to change the way pathology is taught.
 
Not to be cynical, but I think the odds are good that either (1) he's no longer doing (or never did do) a PhD in neuroscience, after investigating the field (2) he's stuck in a research position he doesn't want. A cursory google search confirmed this hypothesis.

While it's commendable that someone would take the risk and change career midway through his career, LADoc's original sentiment that a PhD in neuroscience is like an art history degree is not very far from the truth. And you can't just "be a professor" by getting a phd degree.

I recommend this article recently from the Chronicles of Higher Education called
"From Graduate School to Welfare" for those who are interested
http://chronicle.com/article/From-Graduate-School-to/131795/
 
sluox said:
Not to be cynical, but I think the odds are good that either (1) he's no longer doing (or never did do) a PhD in neuroscience, after investigating the field (2) he's stuck in a research position he doesn't want. A cursory google search confirmed this hypothesis.

While it's commendable that someone would take the risk and change career midway through his career, LADoc's original sentiment that a PhD in neuroscience is like an art history degree is not very far from the truth. And you can't just "be a professor" by getting a phd degree.

I recommend this article recently from the Chronicles of Higher Education called
"From Graduate School to Welfare" for those who are interested
http://chronicle.com/article/From-Graduate-School-to/131795/
Click to expand...

Not that there aren't problems with academia and the economy/doctorate degrees, but don't you think this is a bit of a strech? The article gives some real numbers, but is basically a testimonial from someone with a PhD in medeival history working at a community college in Nowhere, AZ. A PhD in neuroscience can lead to bench/translational research, clinical trial work, industry, etc., all which are substantially higher paying and provide more opportunity than medieval history (or art history), where your options are 1:teach history or 2: write books about history.
 
I dont think you guys understand how key Jim Henderson was to the beginning of SDN. If you look at the very first posts that were ever created on these forums circa 1998, a good chunk of them belong to him.

I had forgotten about Dr Henderson since I lost my old user name/password and had to create a new one. But his contributions to SDN were paramount.

I know this thread is old and he's not likely to read it anymore, but Dr Henderson, thanks for all that you did in the beginning of SDN. Your sage advice helped out this naive premed a long time ago. I hope you found a career that is gratifying to you.
 
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