Crakow? Poznan? Warsaw?

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DeeDee101

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Hi--

I am a neophyte in all things about international med schools, so thanks for reading my post!

Any students, especially those originally from the US, in these Polish medical schools willing to share their experiences about:

1. How well did your med courses help prepare you for the boards?

2. Do Polish med schools offer students the option of doing their 3rd and 4th year outside of Poland? If not, are there disadvantages/advantages to staying those extra 2 years?

3. Someone in an earlier posting wrote that all the students in his/her gross anatomy course had to share only 2 cadavers, which made for a tough learning experience. Is this a common scenario?

4. How do Polish med schools compare with med schools in Ireland and the schools in the UK in terms of academic experience and attaining residency in the US?

Thanks for your help!

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Hi--

I am a neophyte in all things about international med schools, so thanks for reading my post!

Any students, especially those originally from the US, in these Polish medical schools willing to share their experiences about:

1. How well did your med courses help prepare you for the boards?

2. Do Polish med schools offer students the option of doing their 3rd and 4th year outside of Poland? If not, are there disadvantages/advantages to staying those extra 2 years?

3. Someone in an earlier posting wrote that all the students in his/her gross anatomy course had to share only 2 cadavers, which made for a tough learning experience. Is this a common scenario?

4. How do Polish med schools compare with med schools in Ireland and the schools in the UK in terms of academic experience and attaining residency in the US?

Thanks for your help!



hi, i'm an m1 from uj in krakow. that said:
1. haven't taken the boards yet, but all the classes are taught with them in mind.
2. as of right now we can do all of our electives abroad, but we have to do the core rotations here. there is also a mandatory 4 weeks each year that students can do wherever they want, doing whatever they want as long as it's medicine.
3. we had 3 cadavers for 35 students, which is one for about 12 students. what this person probably didn't mention is that we got as many body parts as we wanted. for example, when doing head and neck it was SO much easier to learn on a severed head dissected specially so that all the facial nerves could be seen. or when doing the brain we got a couple brains cut in various ways so there were usually 3 people per specimen, and every specimen showed something different. there's a lot more than to just getting your own cadaver. the profs are very careful to expose us to as many different specimins as possible because there can be HUGE variability among people. i can honestly say that i don't feel shortchanged.
4. no idea. what really concerns me is that this program is respected in the US and i will get a residency when i go back. probably not the more competitive residencies, but internal medicine, among many others, is definately open.
 
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I graduated from Krakow Med School some time ago. It was regular program -for Poles, but I have some idea about the program for US students.

Pros: good social life, school more affordable than in US, easier to get into and out of. If you are eager to learn you will get decent education.

Cons: You will be IMG (2nd category people for residency, lower chance for LOR from US physicians and "US clinical experience"). Easier program may be a trap -I know people who could not pass boards and get to residency , but most people do fine so you just must be disciplned, not be decieved by OK grades and not get yourself lured into nightlife etc. Your teachers never took USMLE.

I do not discourage you from going to Krakow. you just have to know this not to be surprised later. You will be fine if you plan ahead.

If you think about competitive residencies you must ace the boards and get strong US clinical experience and LOR. Start studying First Aid and Kaplan or other high yeld material from first day.
 
hi, i'm an m1 from uj in krakow. that said:
1. haven't taken the boards yet, but all the classes are taught with them in mind.
2. as of right now we can do all of our electives abroad, but we have to do the core rotations here. there is also a mandatory 4 weeks each year that students can do wherever they want, doing whatever they want as long as it's medicine.
3. we had 3 cadavers for 35 students, which is one for about 12 students. what this person probably didn't mention is that we got as many body parts as we wanted. for example, when doing head and neck it was SO much easier to learn on a severed head dissected specially so that all the facial nerves could be seen. or when doing the brain we got a couple brains cut in various ways so there were usually 3 people per specimen, and every specimen showed something different. there's a lot more than to just getting your own cadaver. the profs are very careful to expose us to as many different specimins as possible because there can be HUGE variability among people. i can honestly say that i don't feel shortchanged.
4. no idea. what really concerns me is that this program is respected in the US and i will get a residency when i go back. probably not the more competitive residencies, but internal medicine, among many others, is definately open.
what about anesthesiology....diff to get into?
 
Your teachers never took USMLE.
.

On the contrary. Many graduates of Polish medical schools work or worked abroad - mainly in other European countries (especially since Poland is a member of EU), also in the US or Canada. I know that at least several teachers here where I study in Szczecin, Poland also worked in the US or Canada for some time, and come back here after a few years: for instance the teachers in ophthalmology, internal medicine, pathomorphology, pathophysiology. Recently the new professor of physiology here in Szczecin became the Mariusz Z. Ratajczak - he is the Professor in the Department of Medicine and the Head of Stem Cell Biology Program at James Graham Brown Cancer Center in Lousiville, KY, http://browncancercenter.org/research/researcher.aspx?id=1688
( he graduated from this academy Szczecin and now came back also).
 
I know some Polish doctors that have done great here in the states (including my mom)... but they went to the polish schools. The english language based programs are a bit shady. Poznan and Krakow are the best by far.
 
Polish and English programme students have the same teachers - so they can learn the same. It depends mostly on them how much effort they put in learning.
I think that my medical university PAM in Szczecin is also good.
 
I did a lot of research on this last year when I was thinking about going to school in Poland. The schools in Poznan, Krakow, and Warsaw will only let you do your electives abroad. There are 3 other school in Lublin, Katowice, and Szeczin that have their 3rd and 4th year clinicals in the US. However, for these programs you need to apply through an agency called "The Hope Medical Institute" and they charge you thousands of dollars a year for their services, so they're a little more expensive than the first 3 schools, but still less than US schools.

In the end I got the impression that the Caribbean schools are actually modeled more on the American medical school education model than the the ones in Poland, which are more Euro-based. Not to mention most of the Caribbean schools have all their clinicals in the US. Of course there's many people who graduate from schools in Poland and do well in the US.
 
Medical university in Szczecin isn't connected with Hope Medical Institute or any other agency.
Check the application procedures at the university's website:
http://www.pam.szczecin.pl/index_en.php?cid=694&unroll=190
It's written there that you can apply directly, with no agents.
But as far as I know there is only 6-year programme in medicine and 5-year programme in dentistry conducted in English. They have plans to open 4-year programme in future.
 
Medical university in Szczecin isn't connected with Hope Medical Institute or any other agency.
Check the application procedures at the university's website:
http://www.pam.szczecin.pl/index_en.php?cid=694&unroll=190
It's written there that you can apply directly, with no agents.
But as far as I know there is only 6-year programme in medicine and 5-year programme in dentistry conducted in English. They have plans to open 4-year programme in future.

HMI's webpage must be outdated. They also list Warsaw on there, which isn't affiliated with them last time I checked. It may be that you have to go through HMI if you wan the US clinicals (I could be wrong about that)
 
Currently I am in school in Poland, I would offer the following advice.

1. visit the school before commiting. It costs money, but talk to the students. Do not be fooled by propaganda from agencies or the school.

2. talk to the teachers. everyone says they speak english, but i have found this is not the case. The toughest part of the classes is understanding the language. I have even had a professor who read english papers using Polish characters. there is a lot of self study.

3. accept nobody's word or promises. I was trusting and it was a mistake.

4. here they are not very accomidating of any prior work. The Polish culture is basically the teachers are gods and you should be greatful to be in their presence. I think this stems from the fact Poles don't pay for their education. As we American's do we expect something, we are not simply grateful.

having said that, I would say it depends a lot upon the student. Do not expect the teachers to be interested in your success. Where I am at we are treated with everything from contempt to apathy. But if you work hard on your own you have a chance. To their credit some of the individual instructors will help you, but it is not the attitude of the institution.

there are no extra curricular activities. Nor will the school support your attempts at them. We were even denied shadowing a physician on our freetime.

nobody takes responsibility or makes a decision. Here if you ask a teacher for somethng they tell you to ask the dean, who tells you to ask the teacher. Loop endless see endless loop.

Agencies: they provide a service for a fee. You have to decide if the service is worth the fee. It will largely depend on your individual circumstance. The school and the agency do not always get a long though. My agency has made some attempts at helping, but despite their efforts were unsuccessful. Credit to them for trying and it was better than having nobody. So I connclude that I have an honorable agency, who is worth their money, even if the school is not.

As for safety, it doesn't get any safer. Even in the US.

We can do all our clerkship in the US and that is a plus. Probably the biggest selling point. The agency even takes care of your paperwork. That alone makes them worth it in my opinion.

If you are seriously considering Poland, email me: [email protected] I will give you the brutally honest assessment.

I would close by sayng it is not bad opportunity, but there may be better.
 
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Here in Szczecin English programme students can participate in extra cullicular activities. One of my friends is a member of a Paediatric Students' Scientific Society, the other, who is interested in surgery, assists very often to operations.
 
I'm a graduate from one of the Polish universities. I did A LOT of work on my own to get me where I am today.

1. Agents=EVIL. In essence it's a business making scheme, leeching money from helpless students and controlling the universities by setting contracts that they cannot admit students without the agent. This HMI company has been the pinnacle of unscrupulous tactics. Feel free to visit the CEOs multi-million dollar home in Virginia. Then feel free to see how many alumni from his universities are actually practicing physicians. Get names, get locations, get contact numbers and get a lot of them.

2. Independent universities- Preferable. The profits they make stay within the universities and thus re-invested. Many of the independent universities not only cater to americans, but to europeans, middle eastern, and south asian communities. Thus they have a reputation to hold. Especially because some of the M.E. and S.A. graduates stay within Poland as opposed to the US agency schools. Think about it, if you were training a physician who was going to stay in your country, you'd want to train him/her well. If you were training someone who is going abroad and the bottom line is making profits, you're not gonna really care how they turn out in the end.
Also compare the independent univ. syllibi, they are more akin to what the Polish students study and a lot more fun--you get an earlier exposure to clinical medicine and fun electives.

3. Get FIRST TIME board passing scores in writing. You'll note that many programs dodge around this and other important facts. Don't be fooled! I know the HMI company actually had a contest for students to write sappy letters, but then were distributed to applicants as being genuine out-of-the-blue appreciation letters.

4. The language barrier is an issue, being of Polish origin, I could often ellicit a better understanding by later speaking to the professors in Polish. This was not an option for my colleagues who became very frustrated.

5. In the end, I'm not entirely sure these schools would prepare you for (US) boards. The medical education in the US is very integrative and clinically focused, whereas in Poland and much of central-eastern EU the education is more basics and core concepts rather than correlations.

And this whole baloney of being able to do rotations in the US. You can arrange it with the independent universities. The rotations set up by agents are nearly as much as a US med student pays, but without the educational component, the hospital affiliation with these agents are often sporadic, there one day, gone the next. I would be very careful of this temptation.

best to all of you. I gave a friend this same advice, he went to the carribean and seems to be happy. If you have the time, I encourage you to re-apply in the US to allopathic or osteopathic med school before choosing this route.

Another thing, I heard in the school in Katowice that there is quite a big of drug abuse problem and violence. Including a student murder in katowice and an assault of a student (broke her jaw? nose?) in Lublin in the middle of the town square in daytime!!! I would like to forewarn non-caucasian students that this problem exists. Most Polish people do not behave like this, but unfortuantely there are some that do and even with a small population of minorities you can see how they make themselves visible.

I think msmertka post is really reflective of what it's really like.
 
I'm going to second aniaa's opinion.

I graduated from PAM in Szczecin and I must say I don't feel my education was inferior to the one of my colleagues who studied in other polish schools.
One of the big advantages of the school is it's faculty. We had a lot of young faculty who studied abroad - including here in the US - and they were really sharp and up to date on the latest trends in medicine.

Of course that being said how you do in life is not up to the faculty or the school itself. You will get what you put in. If you work hard you will succeed no matter which school you graduated from. I try to keep that in mind.

I graduated from the polish program, came to the States and set a goal for myself: I want to be an anesthesiologist.
I never knew what USMLE was until I moved here. It was painful for me to sit down and go back to studying basic sciences but I did it. And I scored a 98 on Step 1. Then I studied for Step 2 and scored a 99.
A lot of people kept telling me that as a foreign grad I don't stand a chance in a specialty other than primary care (be it IM or family medicine). But I was stubborn and applied only to anesthesia (and some prelims of course).

Just a few weeks ago I matched into an advanced anesthesia spot at a very well respected program. And for prelim I will be doing a Transitional Year.
So it can be done. With hard work and little bit of luck you can get what you wish for.

So in conclusion: don't think that one choice in life will make or break your career. If you have a goal there's much more to it that the school you go to.
 
Your teachers never took USMLE.
On the contrary. Many graduates of Polish medical schools work or worked abroad - mainly in other European countries (especially since Poland is a member of EU), also in the US or Canada. I know that at least several teachers here where I study in Szczecin, Poland also worked in the US or Canada for some time, and come back here after a few years: for instance the teachers in ophthalmology, internal medicine, pathomorphology, pathophysiology. Recently the new professor of physiology here in Szczecin became the Mariusz Z. Ratajczak - he is the Professor in the Department of Medicine and the Head of Stem Cell Biology Program at James Graham Brown Cancer Center in Lousiville, KY, http://browncancercenter.org/research/researcher.aspx?id=1688
( he graduated from this academy Szczecin and now came back also).

While there may be a handful of clinicians that return from the US to Central Europe, the overwhelming majority remain in the US. The reason for this is very simple. Money. They can make loads more in US clinical positions than back home.

The professor you mentioned above is a researcher, not a clinician. In all likelyhood, he never took the USMLEs or their predecessors. The same probably goes for the others you have listed. Getting a one or two year post grad research position in the US has little to do with passing the USMLEs and getting a residency.
 
I'm sure that some of the professors at PAM in Szczecin, Poland worked in the US and Canada as doctors treating the patients (so they HAD to take USMLE), no only doing research. I know that the salaries are much higher in the US, but not everyone like the system there (so much dependant on the insurance agencies), and I guess the most doctors come back because of the family reasons.
 
I'm sure that some of the professors at PAM in Szczecin, Poland worked in the US and Canada as doctors treating the patients (so they HAD to take USMLE), no only doing research. I know that the salaries are much higher in the US, but not everyone like the system there (so much dependant on the insurance agencies), and I guess the most doctors come back because of the family reasons.

aniaa,

Until I see proof, like being able to look up their US medical licenses by names over the internet I am going to remain skeptical.

Why?

Because the difference in compensation between working as a clinician in Szczecin (or Warsaw, Prague or Budapest) and Fargo, North Dakota (just to pick a random place) is so great. Consider that just registering for a single USMLE Step may cost more than the monthly income of the average Central European clinician.

Every Hungarian physician I have heard about who has completed their USMLEs and landed a residency in the US has stayed. The difference in pay is simply that great.

Also, there are a couple things you should be aware of. First, the post-doc research opportunities I pointed out above. Second, there are ways to get appointed to faculty positions in the US. These do not necessarily require a residency or the USMLEs. Third, Canadians have their own exams and have only very recently allowed graduates in some circumstances to have their USMLEs recognized.

If you would like us to believe you, please provide us with names of these professors and the states in which they were licensed so we can look them up. (Just in case you didn't know, a medical license is a public record in the US.)
 
Hi Miklos
Firstly these doctors are no longer working in the US so I'm sure that they are no longer registered there in the physicians' associations - as it happens in Poland - when a doctor stops working here and giving monthly payment to the Polish medical council, he loses his medical license.
Secondly and more important - even if I have wished it, I can't write down here the names of these doctors. In Poland there is "The Law on the Protection of Personal Data" and these doctors would have to give me the permission to put their names here on this forum.
Nevertheless it doesn't change the truth - just like Venus21pam wrote - many doctors from my university in Szczecin worked abroad, including US and Canada.
And my congratualtions to you Venus21pam :) I wish that you will succeed in getting this residency in anesthesia :)
 
Hi Miklos
Firstly these doctors are no longer working in the US so I'm sure that they are no longer registered there in the physicians' associations - as it happens in Poland - when a doctor stops working here and giving monthly payment to the Polish medical council, he loses his medical license.

aniaa in the US these are public records. Unlike Europe, licensing is not through physician's associations, it is through state medical boards. If they have ever been licensed (even if the license has long expired) it is a matter of public record. Anyone can look up their name and verify their information.

Secondly and more important - even if I have wished it, I can't write down here the names of these doctors. In Poland there is "The Law on the Protection of Personal Data" and these doctors would have to give me the permission to put their names here on this forum.

Well, you didn't have a problem posting Prof. Ratajczak's name earlier.

(BTW, I tried looking up his license in Kentucky. He does not appear to be licensed as a clinician, as he is not listed in the Kentucky Board of Medical Licensure records.) So, I think this is merely an excuse to cover for the fact that you don't have any evidence to back up your claim.

But, I'll happily accept a pm from you with the names of the individuals you know and look up the info myself and report back here. Regardless, as I said before, medical licensure is a public record in the US. Here is one on-line engine connected to many US medical boards, so that you can satisfy your knowledge: http://www.docboard.org/docfinder.html

Nevertheless it doesn't change the truth - just like Venus21pam wrote - many doctors from my university in Szczecin worked abroad, including US and Canada.

Again, what I am not challenging is that they may have worked in the US (I have given you a number of different scenarios as to how that would be possible above without contradicting my assertion).

What I am challenging is whether they took their US licensing exams, competed for residency training and worked as fully licensed clinicians in the US and returned to Poland to practice.

I have stated why I think this is unlikely. This has nothing to do with the quality of Szczecin's medical education for Polish/European practice or the quality of its graduates.

It is however, misleading for North Americans who go abroad to Central Europe to believe that their professors will have practiced as clinicians in the US and have attained those positions in the same manner that the students are expected to (by this I mean going through the ECFMG/USMLEs/ERAS/NRMP).
 
Well, you didn't have a problem posting Prof. Ratajczak's name earlier.

.

I knew that you will mention it :) Take a look at my earlier message. Prof Ratajczak has his own website at Brown Cancer Center with his biography and scientific achivements http://browncancercenter.org/research/researcher.aspx?id=1688 - I gave only the link to it. The same about the information that he is a Head of the Physiology Department at PAM in Szczecin - this data is possible to be viewed by everyone: http://www.pam.szczecin.pl/index_en.php?cid=207&unroll=186
As I mentioned I can't put here the names of doctors without their permission.
 
congratualtions to you Venus21pam :) I wish that you will succeed in getting this residency in anesthesia :)

Thank you aniaa. As a matter of fact I have already matched to an anesthesia residency.

So like I stated before: doesn't matter where you graduated, as long as you study and work hard you WILL pass USMLE.

There are thousands of foreign graduates that do it every year and come to the US hoping to secure a residency spot (mostly from asian countries). I met quite a few of those on my interview trail. Some of them barely speak english! :rolleyes: (but that's not the point).

If you have a goal and are focused on it from the beginning of your training you will succeed.
 
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