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D1Student1T

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As it stands at the moment, I am at the end of my second year, having failed several courses (In each class I seemed to do decently on every exam except one, which dragged my grade down a few points below passing) and am facing dismissal. Although appeal is open to me, it has been strongly suggested to me that an appeal at this juncture would not go in my favor, and all I would be left with is a record stating that I had appealed and been denied.

My desire to be a Doctor is as strong as ever, and although I am aware of the high standards that Doctors must meet, I believe I have what it takes. However, I have taken a personal inventory and decided that with everything that has gone on in my life recently, I would not be able to perform to my best ability even if I was readmitted.

I have been told that in the past, the school has re-admitted students in a situation similar to mine, after they had spent some years studying or working elsewhere. At the moment I feel that is the most prudent option available to me.

What advice does anyone have to someone looking for a career and/or studies, armed with two-years of Medical School classes, and a desire to put that knowledge to use and/or build on it to be a better student in future?

Thank you for your time and advice.
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D1Student1T said:
As it stands at the moment, I am at the end of my second year, having failed several courses (In each class I seemed to do decently on every exam except one, which dragged my grade down a few points below passing) and am facing dismissal. Although appeal is open to me, it has been strongly suggested to me that an appeal at this juncture would not go in my favor, and all I would be left with is a record stating that I had appealed and been denied.

My desire to be a Doctor is as strong as ever, and although I am aware of the high standards that Doctors must meet, I believe I have what it takes. However, I have taken a personal inventory and decided that with everything that has gone on in my life recently, I would not be able to perform to my best ability even if I was readmitted.

I have been told that in the past, the school has re-admitted students in a situation similar to mine, after they had spent some years studying or working elsewhere. At the moment I feel that is the most prudent option available to me.

What advice does anyone have to someone looking for a career and/or studies, armed with two-years of Medical School classes, and a desire to put that knowledge to use and/or build on it to be a better student in future?

Thank you for your time and advice.
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What exactly is keeping you from performing the way that you need to? If you can change it, do everything in your power to do so. Additionally, if you're die-hard about becoming a doc, I would appeal the decision (getting into medical school is hard enough the first time; I think that if you leave now, you may never be able to come back...and besides, the worst they can do is deny your appeal). However, at the end of the day, if they're telling you that you have to leave, consider other similar, less time consuming career paths such as becoming a PA. But as I said earlier, the decision ultimately comes back to whether or not you believe you can balance the problematic issues that are currently causing you to struggle...best of luck.
 
D1:

Sorry to hear about your troubles. That has to be quite a blow.
D1Student1T said:
My desire to be a Doctor is as strong as ever, and although I am aware of the high standards that Doctors must meet, I believe I have what it takes. However, I have taken a personal inventory and decided that with everything that has gone on in my life recently, I would not be able to perform to my best ability even if I was readmitted.
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Good call. I think lots of folks in your position would be tempted to chuck it all and head to the Carribean. You'd surely find a slot, but if you're not ready now for USMD, you probably wouldn't fare better for CarribMD.
D1Student1T said:
What advice does anyone have to someone looking for a career and/or studies, armed with two-years of Medical School classes, and a desire to put that knowledge to use and/or build on it to be a better student in future?
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I'd avoid studies if I were you. The knee jerk reaction is probably for folks to recommend MPH, but I don't see the point. If your "inventory" tells you you're not ready for med school, I wouldn't blow money on grad school either. If your undergrad record was sufficiently strong to get you into medical school, it might be strong enough to get you a research position with CDC, NIH or somesuch, no? There's nothing like a couple years in the working world to light a fire under you to succeed in medical school.

Best of luck with the future....
 
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D1Student1T said:
As it stands at the moment, I am at the end of my second year, having failed several courses (In each class I seemed to do decently on every exam except one, which dragged my grade down a few points below passing) and am facing dismissal. Although appeal is open to me, it has been strongly suggested to me that an appeal at this juncture would not go in my favor, and all I would be left with is a record stating that I had appealed and been denied.

My desire to be a Doctor is as strong as ever, and although I am aware of the high standards that Doctors must meet, I believe I have what it takes. However, I have taken a personal inventory and decided that with everything that has gone on in my life recently, I would not be able to perform to my best ability even if I was readmitted.

I have been told that in the past, the school has re-admitted students in a situation similar to mine, after they had spent some years studying or working elsewhere. At the moment I feel that is the most prudent option available to me.

What advice does anyone have to someone looking for a career and/or studies, armed with two-years of Medical School classes, and a desire to put that knowledge to use and/or build on it to be a better student in future?

Thank you for your time and advice.
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You might also want to expand your intrests beyond medicine or even biological sciences. There is lots of happiness and satisfaction in other professions.
 
D1Student1T said:
As it stands at the moment, I am at the end of my second year, having failed several courses (In each class I seemed to do decently on every exam except one, which dragged my grade down a few points below passing) and am facing dismissal. Although appeal is open to me, it has been strongly suggested to me that an appeal at this juncture would not go in my favor, and all I would be left with is a record stating that I had appealed and been denied.

My desire to be a Doctor is as strong as ever, and although I am aware of the high standards that Doctors must meet, I believe I have what it takes. However, I have taken a personal inventory and decided that with everything that has gone on in my life recently, I would not be able to perform to my best ability even if I was readmitted.

I have been told that in the past, the school has re-admitted students in a situation similar to mine, after they had spent some years studying or working elsewhere. At the moment I feel that is the most prudent option available to me.

What advice does anyone have to someone looking for a career and/or studies, armed with two-years of Medical School classes, and a desire to put that knowledge to use and/or build on it to be a better student in future?

Thank you for your time and advice.
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The first person that you need to speak with is your Dean of Students. This person can tell you what options are available. You can't make any career decisions based on "what you have heard" but rather you make your decisions based on what you know.

The second thing that you need to do in this meeting is figure out why you have not performed to the standards of your medical school's academics. Is there something interfering with your studies? Are you having difficulty figuring out where you need to focus? Do you have extreme test-taking anxiety? Do you have an undiagnosed learning disability? These are avenues that you likely need to investigate before you even consider applying for readmission should you be dismissed. Enlist the assistance of your school administration as they are not your adversary but a huge player in getting your career back on track.

Should the worst happen and you are dismissed, you need to have a clear strategy and plan to correct whatever caused you to get into academic trouble in the first place. What ever you do, make sure that you get the help that you need to not make the same mistakes twice.


phatib said:
I would recommend working in industry or doing consulting. Come back in 2 years. Ask for personal leave of absence while you are gone.
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Unfortunately, unless the OP has another terminal degree (Ph.D, JD or MPH) industry or consulting is not going to be an option. Also, if not in good academic standing (which may be the case for the OP), taking a personal leave of absence is not going to be an option.

Ideally, should the OP be dismissed, enrollment in an intensive study-skills course would be the first option. There are a few courses offered across the country that are focused specifically toward medical students.

The other problem is that after 2 years, most medical schools (in this country) only allow a maximum of six years to complete their curriculum. The OP needs to be totally sure and totally focused on getting through medical school with no future problems. This means that whatever caused the academic problems in the first place, needs to be corrected.

For anyone who has struggled or is struggling academically:

In terms of professional school, anyone who falls below 80 (scaled score) on any exam should be meeting with the professor and doing a thorough inventory of their performance (as soon as you get the grade) and making any corrections so that you do not repeat your mistakes. If you get help early and often, then getting to the end of the semester and finding out that you have failed a complete course becomes less likely.

Asking for help is not a sign of failure but a sign of being proactive about getting your studies mastered. When you are practicing, and your patient presents with a problem that is beyond your scope of practice, you will likely consult another physician who has more expertise in the area that your patient needs. Taking care of your academic problems is no different from getting a consultant when you see that you need additional information/help for your patient.

You pay thousands of dollars in tuition. Your school likely has peer tutors, faculty office hours,faculty advisers, counseling services and other resources that your tuition dollars have paid for. Utilize these resources and get every dollars' worth or your tuition money. At this level, you are your best advocate for yourself and you need to do everything that you can, to keep your career on track.

Any medical student, from the person who is #1 in the class to the person who is struggling to stay in school can have something that interferes with their ability to get their work done. When this happens, ask for help (your administration is the first point) and get what you need to get back on track early. Sometimes just having an outside "eye" look at your problems can make a huge difference that keeps you from failing or off academic probation.

If you have been admitted into medical school, you have the brainpower to get through. You may need help with things that crop up and are beyond your control but make not mistake, if you have the desire, you can get through most academic difficulties if you don't allow them to keep piling up until you are in a deep hole where you can't climb out.
 
njbmd said:
The first person that you need to speak with is your Dean of Students.
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I should have specified, but my original post is actually the result of an informal meeting I had with the Dean of Students, who let me know where I stand. She was very kind and helpful, but also honest, and did not think an appeal would go in my favor at the moment.


njbmd said:
The second thing that you need to do in this meeting is figure out why you have not performed to the standards of your medical school's academics. Is there something interfering with your studies?
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I have had some personal stress as of late, largely stemming from my parents (who are most likely getting divorced) and the failing health of some close elderly relatives. Without getting bogged down in details, if I appealed I would certainly have to explain why things would be different if I were allowed to continue, and at this moment in time I cannot honestly say that I think it would be different - I am sure there are people successfully coping with far more stress than I am, but at the moment I think that trying to "forge onward" would only make things worse. I have spoken with Administration about this in the past, when I first began to experience difficulty. At the moment I'm really looking for advice on what to do after dismissal.
 
D1Student1T said:
I should have specified, but my original post is actually the result of an informal meeting I had with the Dean of Students, who let me know where I stand. She was very kind and helpful, but also honest, and did not think an appeal would go in my favor at the moment.




I have had some personal stress as of late, largely stemming from my parents (who are most likely getting divorced) and the failing health of some close elderly relatives. Without getting bogged down in details, if I appealed I would certainly have to explain why things would be different if I were allowed to continue, and at this moment in time I cannot honestly say that I think it would be different - I am sure there are people successfully coping with far more stress than I am, but at the moment I think that trying to "forge onward" would only make things worse. I have spoken with Administration about this in the past, when I first began to experience difficulty. At the moment I'm really looking for advice on what to do after dismissal.
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You mentioned your desire as being "stronger than ever". If you are dismissed, are you permanently dismissed or can you come back? If you don't appeal this situation, then I think your chances will be far lower if you intend to reapply. It's something you really need to think about.

What coping mechanisms, outside of your own personal inventory have you been using to deal with your parents divorce and your elderly relatives' failing health. I'm always amazed at the how students try to hide what they view as "weaknesses" and by doing so, they hurt themselves in the long run. If medicine is truly what you want and having an MD is the only way you see yourself, then I would appeal and try and tough it out using professional and formal resources to do so.

If your dimissal does not offer a 'leave' type of option and you want to take the risk of not being accepted to another allopathic MD school in the US, then go ahead and do what will make you happy and perhaps help you with that reapplication goal. Perhaps a year of research at the NIH as someone suggested, or a teach for america or teaching abroad type of program.
 
Consider one of the many other wonderful medical careers ... nursing, MPH, PA, NP, NA, audiology, psychology, surgical tech, EMT, pharmacy technician, medical/clinical research, optometry, etc. etc. You may find a career in a program that is less academically challenging in areas that you struggle in (let's say you struggle in ID or path) but still very rewarding. You might find yourself going from the bottom of the class to the middle or even higher in some other program. After you get some experience and after your personal situation changes, you may want to reapply to medical school.
 
Thanks to everyone that's given advice so far.

Compiling the suggestions I've heard (here and elsewhere). No idea how realistic they are, and I'm including ones that don't appeal to me in case they're ever useful to someone else...

Health-related
* Physician Assistant, Surgical Technician
* Nursing, or Physical Therapist
* Pharmacy Technician
* EMT/Paramedic
* Biomedical Research (CDC, NIH, etc)
----- lab technician
----- Biostatistics, Epidemiology, Demographics
----- Behavioral Science
* Social Worker
* GE, Siemens, etc

Not/Less Health-Related


* Teacher/ Health Education
----- General population
----- College
----- High School
* Journalism (Having some medical background may be useful)
----- All topics
----- Medical science Correspondent
----- Medical/Science magazine
.* pharmaceutical (sales, etc.) .

Schooling
* Master of Public Health Degree


Hopefully this will answer some questions:

DrZeke said:
You mentioned your desire as being "stronger than ever". If you are dismissed, are you permanently dismissed or can you come back?
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The Dean of Students has told me that, in the past, students in similar situations have taken several years away from the school (in one case a student had apparently been away for 7 years), pursued other endeavors, made an appeal to return, and have done so successfully. Moreover, were I to successfully appeal at the moment, I believe it would only be a matter of time before things started going wrong again.

In terms of my personal life/family/friends, even taking into account that it's easy to over-emphasize the bad and belittle the good, it feels as though I've had an unusually very bad few years (two friends diagnosed with cancer in the last six years, for example), and very little to celebrate. Academically, I was an average student in my first year, but struggled my second year, and even with a great deal of work I always seemed to be at least a few points below the class average, and always manage to do particularly bad on one exam, dragging my grade just slightly (teasingly) below the passing grade.

Put simply: both academically and personally, I feel that I've been racking up a number of "losses" and "almosts" for a while now, little to no "wins", and it's done a number on my physical and mental health. And the thing is, while I know it's easy to delude yourself, I'm certain that I can do much better than I've been doing, and that I've operated at a higher level in the past. But I also know there's no quick fixes to shake myself out of this rut.

Since it's been presented as a possible option, I think the best thing for me at this point is to do something else for a while, rack up some "wins" again, get my personal life in order, and establish something I can do should the worst come to pass and I'm unable to pursue a career in Medicine. And, if I should try to get back in after a few years, and be denied, that would be heartbreaking (this is my lifelong dream, as I'm sure is true for many others) ... but the life of any medical student (or Doctor) is stressful, and the way things are right now I can't realistically see myself succeeding.
 
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If they are suggesting NOT appealing, have they explained very clearly to you about why they feel your appeal would be denied? Having a clear understanding of their position will help you to assess whether you think they are wrong, and you need to get a chance to explain it to them, or whether they are right on the money.

My understanding is that at most schools, it would take a lot to have gone wrong for them not want you to appeal and to not accept your appeal. Schools actually want their students to succeed.

Which is why I thought, (njbmd), they would rather have you take a leave of absence if you're struggling, in order to sort your life out? They should have offered a lot of supportive options WELL before it got to the end of your second year to get you the support you needed - did you not take advantage of it? Is this the reason they don't think you will be reinstated? At my own school, if a student does poorly on one exam, they have a discussion with the block 1 director about it and decide if they need anything extra - tutoring, small group study, counselling, other stuff. They don't let people fall through the cracks. What can happen is that the student doesn't follow up with what was discussed or suggested. So now it appears to them that you aren't just struggling with the work, you're ignoring the help they are trying to give you. Doesn't make them too happy.

The other thing is, of course, if your academic performance is that weak, they probably have a very clear idea of how well a person in your situation will do on Step 1. Or will they even allow you to take Step 1 at this point?

Seems like if you really WANT to stay, you've got to appeal and spell out exactly what you know you haven't done right that you need to correct, and a plan for how you are going to correct it.

But it sounds like you're already just planning to get out and do something else at this point. Make sure you have a clear understanding of how you'll be leaving and under what circumstances you might be allowed to return - before you make your decisions.
 
Well, you have already heard some pretty good practical suggestions, so I'll attempt to address another aspect of your issue. I know that this is a deeply personal matter and I'm thinking you aren't telling us the complete story (of course not, and I wouldn't expect you to, since it certainly wouldn't be easy to do so on a forum such as this), but have you sought out any counseling of any sort? I think it would be a good idea and that it could be very transformational for you. There's no shame in seeking help from a professional to help you resolve your issues. It can make a world of a difference, because I sense there is something that you don't know that you don't know about your issue, and some professional guidance can help unravel or unwind it for you. My first thought, when I read your post, was that you might even be depressed, but it's hard to tell from just words in a post and I could be completely wrong. Anyway, whatever the case is, I'd suggest seeking help from someone who can help you go beyond the surface, deep into what exact is going on inside and help you face and resolve whatever is making you drift off-course.

Good luck with everything.
 
phatib said:
I am sorry but this is incorrect. You do not need a graduate degree to go into industry or consulting. With 2 years of medical school, some consulting companies even start you at the mba level. I worked in management consulting and also interned at GE Healthcare before coming to med school. If he really wants to get a job such as at GE Healthcare, Siemens, etc. through one of their 1.5-2 year rotational leadership programs or go into consulting and/or pharm, he should be able to with 2 years of med school.

Also, if he is going to take time off away from medical school in the next 1-2 years, he SHOULD get a leave if possible. That way it allows him an opening to come back at some point.

At this time, an intensive study program is NOT likely the best option since he has already had some struggles with studying in the past year. Doing something non-study related may be very helpful. His problems are related to personal issues, not with studying per se.
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It's going to be nearly impossible to fail out of med school and land in a good consulting gig. I know of folks who got good consulting jobs coming out of college, because programs recruit there, so you are right, you needn't have a PhD, MD, JD, MBA to get in. But the folks with more experience and education generally have to sell themselves a bit differently, and the grades and recommendations from your prior job or school is going to loom really large in the process. As well as the reasons you are leaving medicine. So someone who failed courses and was dismissed, and doesn't have a positive spin on why they are leaving isn't going to get the offer. And no, the OP won't come in at an MBA level. Someone who left med school getting all A's and could get stellar recommendations perhaps might. The OP won't.

I would also suggest that a high end job requiring long hours and extensive work product, such as consulting, might not be a better option for OP right now. If he doesn't have the ability to focus on his coursework in med school, he doesn't have the ability to focus in on a major consulting project for 60-80 hours a week either. To some extent it is worse because in med school the only one who gets screwed over by your inattention is you. In an employment situation there are clients, fellow workers, and your employer at stake when you don't toe the line.

OP probably should see what he can do to get a leave of absence for a couple of years rather than outright dismissal. Then OP should get some sort of lab job which pays the bills but has modest hours for the next few years, while he sorts out his family issues. Then OP can look into returning to med school, or perhaps one of these consulting options, with a few years of employment and perhaps some publications under his wing.

Lots of people attend med school many years after college these days. Every school has at least a couple nontrads. So the OP needs to find a way to leave the door open, when he leaves. If he can persuade the dean to give him a leave of absence rather than a dismissal, the ability to return is intact. If he is dismissed, the game is over. No med school will touch another school's castaway. OP will be stuck with offshore options and will be less likely to practice stateside.
 
I am very sorry to hear this. My parents are often in quarrel and I have this my-parents-will-get-divorced-phobia. Many studies show that parents divorcing while the kid is grown up (20s) can be more detrimental compared to when the kid is very young.

I don't know about your school, but in my school, if you fail 2nd year, you can repeat it. And they only dismiss you if you fail it the second time, which is quite unlikely considering the fact that you have learned the same stuff twice. Also, in my school 70% is passing in 2nd year.

Your school is very harsh IMO.
 
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I personally think that the OP should be commended for their realization that medicine is ultimately not for them. So much more often on SDN the theme of the thread is "I am failing everything but I KNOW I will be a great doctor" followed by strategizing to force the school to let them stay. Recognizing personal limitations is one of the signs of a mature personality.

Unfortunately 2 years of medical school don't mean much in the job market, and like others have said getting great jobs in "industry" is probably much easier after graduating with honors.

Getting into another, reputable professional program will likely be difficult but might be worth checking out. You won't be an MD/DO but you won't work as hard as they do either. Something else like being a tech, PA, EMT etc is an easier route but if the OP got into med school they might not have the mindset to do something like this as a career. No slam on those professions but most people who think about medicine as a career aren't deciding between it and being a paramedic.
 
D1Student1T said:
...I have been told that in the past, the school has re-admitted students in a situation similar to mine, after they had spent some years studying or working elsewhere. At the moment I feel that is the most prudent option available to me...
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They are blowing sweet-scented smoke up your ***. Once you walk out that door they have absolutely no incentive or desire to see you again and you will run into a brick wall the next time around. They just want you to go, and go quietly, with the minimum of fuss and bother for them.

I think you've proved that you can't handle medical school. Why beat yourself up over it? There is no shame in it and six years from now you can come back to SDN, lurk a little, and reading some of the posts from people on this thread who are further along feel a great sense of relief that you dodged the bullet and are not now suffering through a career that, except that it pays pretty well in the end, would be so not worth all the emotional currency we invest in it.

If you're a dude, I'd suggest the Marines or some similar endeavor just to clear your head and get the cloying taste of academic life out of your mouth. There are useful, interesting jobs out there that do not require you to have your face buried in a book all the time.
 
Panda Bear said:
Why beat yourself up over it? There is no shame in it and six years from now you can come back to SDN, lurk a little, and reading some of the posts from people on this thread who are further along feel a great sense of relief that you dodged the bullet and are not now suffering through a career that, except that it pays pretty well in the end, would be so not worth all the emotional currency we invest in it.

There are useful, interesting jobs out there that do not require you to have your face buried in a book all the time.
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OP - have you talked about taking a leave w/the dean and they said it was okay to do? If you can, just do it. And talk to the dean about what they suggest you do in the meantime. Ask to get in touch with others from the school that have been in similar situations.

Take a break, give yourself time to get your head clear. It doesn't matter what kind of work you do right away. This isn't the best time to be making big decisions like that. Once you're feeling more like yourself, you can decide what path you want to take. It doesn't have to be medicine.

Provided you really did give it your best shot, whether you return to school or not, at some point you will feel relieved when you look back.
 
phatib said:
Sounds like not many people in this thread have worked in a real 50k full-time job worked out of undergrad. If you haven't, shut it. Don't speculate and give inaccurate advice.
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I actually see quite a few formerly gainfully employed nontrads posting in this thread. your prior suggestion that someone who fails out of med school is going to land in a cushy consulting gig at an MBA scale pay sounds far more like speculation and dubious advice than anything else in this thread. Having worked with consultants in my prior industry, I actually found their hiring requirements to be fairly rigorous, and folks not coming into their programs directly out of college tended to need pristine credentials, not professional school failures.

The OP should be able to get a career going, once he straightens out the distractions in his life. But suggesting he will not have to overcome blemishes on his record through years of hard work, as well as convincingly explain his change of course is probably not so realistic. The notion that anyone with two years of med school is going to waltz into a management consulting job at a fairly high pay level is just not so.
 
phatib said:
I actually worked in management consulting out of undergrad. Consulting is all about selling yourself.
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It's harder to sell a damaged product. Failing out of a professional school makes you damaged goods in industries that focus on pedigree. Management consulting is such an industry. And as I mentioned, coming out of college and coming from other life experiences creates a whole new level of scrutiny. The expectation out of college is less because for most this is the first full time job. You just have to have done well at the right schools and sell yourself well in the interview. But coming in at a later time creates a whole new level of scrutiny and expectations. I've compared notes with some of my peers (former classmates) at the consulting firms because we often found ourselves interviewing the same applicants. you don't see folks waltzing in and snagging high payscale jobs without being able to portray themselves as stars (with references to prove it) at wherever they are coming from.
 
Thanks for all the advice, everyone, it means a lot. Right now it's a lot to digest, but the truth of the matter is, I am well and truly burnt out at this point. As far back as I can remember I have been monomaniacal about being a Doctor. Volunteered in hospitals throughout high-school and college, got a job stocking supplies in the summers, had to get into a good college, always had to make Dean's list, do extracurriculars that would look good, get into the Med School I wanted... meanwhile, from maybe my second year of college onward, things just kept on getting worse and worse on the personal end of things. Bad things have happened to people I care about so regularly it's like a dark comedy (I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry sometimes), my eyesight has gone from excellent to laughable in the space of two years, car troubles, money troubles, law troubles (FYI: when your eyesight gets so bad it lands you in court, it's time to get glasses), my sister (who I adore) is failing in her classes... you name it. And I know many of you are thinking "counseling," but right now that's not going to cut it (I've met with a counselor a few times this year, and honestly left wishing I'd spent the time studying instead). My tank of "positive energy" is empty, the needle is pointing to E, I need to fill it up again before I even have a hope in hell of doing well. Which isn't to say I want to do something easy, but trying to forge on with medical school, with the added pressure of knowing I was under a microscope, is a sure recipe for failure.

Advice on where and how I could start looking if dismissed is particularly valuable, because while there's a wealth of resources for people having difficulty in school, or trying to appeal, etc., I've spent a couple of days looking around and there seems to be next to nothing in terms of advice for people that have been dismissed. If nothing else, I think I need to show that I've thoroughly explored my options. At the moment, if I was asked "what would you do if your appeal failed" I'd only be able to reply "Well, I have some vague ideas..."

Thanks again, everyone.
 
Law2Doc said:
It's harder to sell a damaged product. Failing out of a professional school makes you damaged goods in industries that focus on pedigree. Management consulting is such an industry. And as I mentioned, coming out of college and coming from other life experiences creates a whole new level of scrutiny. The expectation out of college is less because for most this is the first full time job. You just have to have done well at the right schools and sell yourself well in the interview. But coming in at a later time creates a whole new level of scrutiny and expectations. I've compared notes with some of my peers (former classmates) at the consulting firms because we often found ourselves interviewing the same applicants. you don't see folks waltzing in and snagging high payscale jobs without being able to portray themselves as stars (with references to prove it) at wherever they are coming from.
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To be a consultant, you have to have to have some special knowledge or a skill that you can sell. I don't see how a vanilla-flavored college degree and a couple of years of medical school, both useless unless parlayed into a medical degree, positions anyone for any consulting job more involved than helping me make up my mind between the latte grande or the fruit smoothee.

The problem here is that everyone on SDN has an aversion, a horror actually, to any line of work that requires...well...work. The OP could probably make more and be happier in many careers, from plumber to Army Ranger, except that he refuses to shake the notion that the only jobs worth having are those where you never get your hands dirty.
 
Panda Bear said:
To be a consultant, you have to have to have some special knowledge or a skill that you can sell. I don't see how a vanilla-flavored college degree and a couple of years of medical school, both useless unless parlayed into a medical degree, positions anyone for any consulting job more involved than helping me make up my mind between the latte grande or the fruit smoothee.

The problem here is that everyone on SDN has an aversion, a horror actually, to any line of work that requires...well...work. The OP could probably make more and be happier in many careers, from plumber to Army Ranger, except that he refuses to shake the notion that the only jobs worth having are those where you never get your hands dirty.
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Probably easier to land a consulting gig... :D
 
phatib said:
Quite clear who hasn't been in management consulting... :laugh: All you really need is sales and Microsoft Office skills.

Contributions from outsiders who have a vague amorphous idea of it are not useful. Here's what consultants really do - get paid to steal a company's watch and tell them the time. :smuggrin: It's a good 1-2 year job allowing you to explore a lot of places (from traveling to the client sites) that pays decently but not a very good long-term career. Progression at the upper levels is pure sales ability - landing clients for the firm.
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Panda might not have an exact idea of the day-to-day of a consulting gig but I think he's probably right about LANDING said job.

I had a few friends this year who decided not to apply for residency in favor of trying to get those sweet, big money, consulting jobs we always hear about on SDN. I can tell you that at least one had a pristine med school transcript, business connections, business experience, and a great personality to boot. She also knew how to use Office. She ended up scrambling into a prelim year after spending all of M4 job hunting.
 
You don't have to go into the most intense levels of a consulting firm, contrary to what many people seem to be suggesting here. At the pharma company I am at now, there are many employees from Accenture. Some of them are doing the "intense" consulting gig that is being described above, while others have simple 9-5 gigs. True, those in the later position do not have the upward mobility potential that the true consultants have, but they still make a good buck. I doubt you would need to prove you are a "star" to get this gig, it really seems like a higher level temp job to me.

Oh, and as an interesting side note for panda bear, my good friend who is doing the hard core consulting there is a former army ranger! Guess he decided it was better to not get his hands dirty anymore ;)
 
Panda Bear said:
The problem here is that everyone on SDN has an aversion, a horror actually, to any line of work that requires...well...work. The OP could probably make more and be happier in many careers, from plumber to Army Ranger, except that he refuses to shake the notion that the only jobs worth having are those where you never get your hands dirty.
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Or maybe the thinking is that, with an undergraduate degree and a couple years of med school, it might be easier and shorter to go into something tangentially related, rather than a completely different field the OP has no experience with. I mean, I seem to recall that being a plumber is something that requires a little bit of trainging . . . like 4-5 years worth.

And if being a Marine were so great, you'd still be one. There's a difference between being proud of your service and thinking it's a great job.
 
Tired said:
Or maybe the thinking is that, with an undergraduate degree and a couple years of med school, it might be easier and shorter to go into something tangentially related, rather than a completely different field the OP has no experience with. I mean, I seem to recall that being a plumber is something that requires a little bit of trainging . . . like 4-5 years worth.

And if being a Marine were so great, you'd still be one. There's a difference between being proud of your service and thinking it's a great job.
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Well, yeah. But the difference is that I didn't fail out of the Marines, Engineering, Medical School, or Residency and had complete freedom to choose careers...uh...with the exception that I am now stuck in medicine for better or worse. The OP is young and he may need to just try something completely different as he has no talent for academics.
 
If there could be identifiable reasons for your performance (depression, learning disability, anxiety disorders) then you are probably within your legal rights to ask for a medical leave of absence so that those problems could be addressed. Ask for the medical leave ASAPO prior to being dismissed.

I hope you have had a family physician or counsellor who can document the issues for you. If you ask for a medical leave of absence do it with legal advice.

If you got into medical school, and if there are circumstantial or treatable issues leading to your unexpected poor performance, then work through these issues with professional help prior to making a huge decision to leave the profession. It also sounds like your sister could use the same advice.
 
OP: get treatment for your depression. Yes, I said it. It's painfully obvious. If counseling hasn't helped, perhaps it's time to try meds, then when you're feeling better, try the counseling again.
Then do something OUTSIDE of school for a while. Work in whatever makes you feel happy. Physical work might be good for you and get your mind off the other garbage going on in your life.
You will be better equipped to evaluate your situation and whether you DO have the drive to go back to med school (assuming you could be readmitted) after you're feeling more positively. Anything school-related right now IMO is an uphill battle.
Also, and more for the other naive posters than for you, don't bother with PA school right now. You don't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting in if you've failed out of med school.
Good luck
Lisa PA-C
 
primadonna22274 said:
OP: get treatment for your depression. Yes, I said it. It's painfully obvious. If counseling hasn't helped, perhaps it's time to try meds, then when you're feeling better, try the counseling again.
Then do something OUTSIDE of school for a while. Work in whatever makes you feel happy. Physical work might be good for you and get your mind off the other garbage going on in your life.

You will be better equipped to evaluate your situation and whether you DO have the drive to go back to med school (assuming you could be readmitted) after you're feeling more positively. Anything school-related right now IMO is an uphill battle.
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Agreed. :thumbup:
 
phatib said:
Quite clear who hasn't been in management consulting... :laugh: All you really need is sales and Microsoft Office skills.
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If you really believe this, then you might have had an entry level sales job in which the employer gave you the title of "consultant" to keep you happy. If you think consulting is all sales and no product, I question how much actual consulting you've done or how much exposure you've had.

Consulting (from what I know of it, having done it for about six years before medical school) is selling your expertise. Whether you're working for one of the Big Five or a smaller outfit, you have to have something to bring to the table. If you come from a hot MBA program, that can be your entry in to the field, where you work on small accounts and are mentored until you have enough actual experience to make you worthwhile. Any consultant who has nothing but "sales and Microsoft Office skills" is going to get no repeat business or referrals and would be dead in the water in a matter of months.

If you came to any company I've worked at and your only asset was failing out of medical school, you wouldn't make first cut. If you think someone can be clever enough to "swing it" to full HR and hiring managers, you probably haven't spent much time in the field. If I see any applicant with a half finished program/degree, I'll inquire as to why it's half finished.

Anyone who thinks management consulting is a great career for failures in other fields either hasn't worked in management consulting, or has done it at such a minor level as to have a skewed view of the field. If you think it's all sales, maybe you worked in sales for a management consulting company?

Sorry, phatib, but PandaBear, Law2Doc and pretty much everyone whose weighed in on this has the right idea.
 
cleothecat said:
If there could be identifiable reasons for your performance (depression, learning disability, anxiety disorders) then you are probably within your legal rights to ask for a medical leave of absence so that those problems could be addressed. Ask for the medical leave ASAPO prior to being dismissed.

I hope you have had a family physician or counsellor who can document the issues for you. If you ask for a medical leave of absence do it with legal advice.

If you got into medical school, and if there are circumstantial or treatable issues leading to your unexpected poor performance, then work through these issues with professional help prior to making a huge decision to leave the profession. It also sounds like your sister could use the same advice.
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This is excellent excellent advice. You have all of the ingredients necessary to make a case for a *medical leave of absence* due to depression. You've been performing well in your pre-med career and on most tests, so it's not that you can't do it. Don't let your depression lead you into quitting or not pursuing an appeal or legal options. A leave of absence is a million times better than trying to get readmitted. Good luck to you!
 
D1Student1T said:
I should have specified, but my original post is actually the result of an informal meeting I had with the Dean of Students, who let me know where I stand. She was very kind and helpful, but also honest, and did not think an appeal would go in my favor at the moment.




I have had some personal stress as of late, largely stemming from my parents (who are most likely getting divorced) and the failing health of some close elderly relatives. Without getting bogged down in details, if I appealed I would certainly have to explain why things would be different if I were allowed to continue, and at this moment in time I cannot honestly say that I think it would be different - I am sure there are people successfully coping with far more stress than I am, but at the moment I think that trying to "forge onward" would only make things worse. I have spoken with Administration about this in the past, when I first began to experience difficulty. At the moment I'm really looking for advice on what to do after dismissal.
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xxxx
 
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fromjersey said:
Do you by any chance take any of those allergy/asthma meds like Singulair or Zyrtec?
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fromjersey sounds like a consultant for a lawyer...:smuggrin::smuggrin:
 
How about MCAT tutoring? Or get involved in medschool admissions in some way (e.g. become an independent medschool admissions "guru" :laugh:). Seriously, though, in certain areas this is a booming bussiness. Plus you have a major selling point; you've gotten into an american (I'm assuming) allopathic med school.

Also, truth is, even if you are outright dismissed from your school, you can still get into a DO school, carribean MD, or dental school (and become an american MD by doing a maxillofacial residency). The world is yours; you're young, healthy and intelligent. Imagine what an old dumb guy in a wheel chair would give to be in your position.
 
Panda Bear said:
They are blowing sweet-scented smoke up your ***. Once you walk out that door they have absolutely no incentive or desire to see you again and you will run into a brick wall the next time around. They just want you to go, and go quietly, with the minimum of fuss and bother for them.

I think you've proved that you can't handle medical school. Why beat yourself up over it? There is no shame in it and six years from now you can come back to SDN, lurk a little, and reading some of the posts from people on this thread who are further along feel a great sense of relief that you dodged the bullet and are not now suffering through a career that, except that it pays pretty well in the end, would be so not worth all the emotional currency we invest in it.

If you're a dude, I'd suggest the Marines or some similar endeavor just to clear your head and get the cloying taste of academic life out of your mouth. There are useful, interesting jobs out there that do not require you to have your face buried in a book all the time.
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I got a little nervous when I saw the word Marines... But it may not be a bad idea to to look DEEP, real deep into the service..
At least you have guts to state your situation and make a plan B..
Also some states favor N.P.s(Nurse Practioner) to P.A.s.. And N.P.s can join a union. P.A.s do not have a union..[Nurse anaesthetist] (spelling) from what I understand has a lot of pressure and calculations.
**Try to keep the door open at your med school.. And also remember there are also the big 3 in the Carribean..
But I might not take advice from a premed!
Good luck in your endeavor..As you know this is a REAL BLOODY (big time) field. And sometimes it can take a while to find our niche..:thumbup:
 
notdeadyet said:
Sorry, phatib, but PandaBear, Law2Doc and pretty much everyone whose weighed in on this has the right idea.
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No, you're all missing the elephant in the room: The OP has (at least) a Bachelor's degree in SOMETHING (I don't recall he/she mentioning what.) It was suggested that the OP try to get a job in industry OR consulting. You all are getting hung up on the consulting part (though, in my limited experience with consultants (working with them -- I never worked as a consultant,) I tend to agree with the popular assessment here, and that might not be a realistic expectation,) and not focusing on the industry part. There are TONS of jobs in industry for people that have only a BS degree. Sure, they don't pay as well as jobs for people with an MD, but many (most) people graduate with their BS and get a job working for some large corporation in their field. Though is may surprise many here, who have known nothing but life in academia, most of those people go on to lead normal and usually happy lives.

It's absurd to suggest that someone would try to sell themselves as "failing out of medical school." Any dumba$$ knows that you don't go into an interview and say that. If someone (probably inevitably) asks about your spending 2 years in medical school before doing a U-turn and going back to try and get a job in the field of your BS, you say, "I really thought that medicine was the right career for me, but after 2 years, it just looked like it wasn't going to work out" or something like that.

Getting a job in his/her field will allow the OP to pay his/her bills while sorting out what he/she really wants to do in life, and what, if any advanced degrees he/she wants to pursue/re-pursue -- I think it was a great suggestion.

I also agree with Panda Bear that the OP's school is just trying to get rid of him/her. I would definitely appeal -- what is there to lose?
 
Sol Rosenberg said:
No, you're all missing the elephant in the room: The OP has (at least) a Bachelor's degree in SOMETHING (I don't recall he/she mentioning what.) It was suggested that the OP try to get a job in industry OR consulting. You all are getting hung up on the consulting part
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We're hung up on the consulting part because that's the part that's not realistic.

I don't think anyone doubts that the OP has the ability to get a job with his Bachelor's degree. I just question his ability to get any job beyond that. Failing out of a graduate program doesn't carry any weight. He'll be at the same level as any other BA holder.
Sol Rosenberg said:
It's absurd to suggest that someone would try to sell themselves as "failing out of medical school." Any dumba$$ knows that you don't go into an interview and say that. If someone (probably inevitably) asks about your spending 2 years in medical school before doing a U-turn and going back to try and get a job in the field of your BS, you say, "I really thought that medicine was the right career for me, but after 2 years, it just looked like it wasn't going to work out" or something like that.
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Most employers could care less about asking for transcripts. But if you have a half-finished degree and it's any kind of job, many will request that transcript, just to find out if you set fire to the dorms or something to get kicked out. So you can talk about U-turns and things not working out, but inevitably they're probably going to look at your transcripts and see what didn't work out was you.

Hey, there's no crime in flunking a course or even all of medical school. Most of us on this forum are just a few bad tests away at any given time from doing exactly that. No shame in it. I just question any value that a half-finished medical degree is going to provide you in the workforce.
 
D1Student1T said:
As it stands at the moment, I am at the end of my second year, having failed several courses (In each class I seemed to do decently on every exam except one, which dragged my grade down a few points below passing) and am facing dismissal. Although appeal is open to me, it has been strongly suggested to me that an appeal at this juncture would not go in my favor, and all I would be left with is a record stating that I had appealed and been denied.

My desire to be a Doctor is as strong as ever, and although I am aware of the high standards that Doctors must meet, I believe I have what it takes. However, I have taken a personal inventory and decided that with everything that has gone on in my life recently, I would not be able to perform to my best ability even if I was readmitted.

I have been told that in the past, the school has re-admitted students in a situation similar to mine, after they had spent some years studying or working elsewhere. At the moment I feel that is the most prudent option available to me.

What advice does anyone have to someone looking for a career and/or studies, armed with two-years of Medical School classes, and a desire to put that knowledge to use and/or build on it to be a better student in future?

Thank you for your time and advice.
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I am suprised that med schools won't be more accomodating for someone who is already a MS2?
Can't you take a year off? and then repeat the year?
 
I agree with those recommending you secure a medical leave of absence. If you were admitted to medical school, you most likely have the academic ability to pass your courses.

The fact that you are failing courses, and that you are under stress because of family issues, suggests that it's not your academic ability that's causing you to fail. I would strongly recommend you meet with a therapist and/or a psychiatrist. Find a good one, who comes recommended. You may or may not have to look beyond your school's mental health clinic. If you are suffering from depression or anxiety, the school may be legally required to grant you a medical leave of absence (perhaps some of the former lawyers on the board can confirm this). Take the medical leave of absence. You may have no interest in being in med school at the moment, but that could change in a few years, when you're back on your feet. You might even decide that you don't wish to practice medicine, but that having an M.D. would be a valuable thing to have, whether in business, law, journalism, etc.

Whatever you do, keep your foot in the med school door. Get the leave of absence. Fight for it if you have to. Shop around until you find a therapist who's helpful. Not all of them are created equal. Some of them out there have probably been in similar situations to yours, and could prove to be quite helpful to you, even if it's in the form of helping you secure your leave of absence. I agree with posters that say that once you're dismissed, your school is likely not going to give you the time of day. You've got absolutely nothing to lose by fighting to get the leave of absence. You may be happy you did a few years down the road

In any case, good luck to you.
 
M.Furfur said:
I am suprised that med schools won't be more accomodating for someone who is already a MS2?
Can't you take a year off? and then repeat the year?
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I too have to echo the advice to seek a MLOA. I was in a similar situation because of migraine medication side effects and trouble with step 1. But my school was actually very supportive and told me to take time off to fix the reason for my issues, then totally helped me come back and now I have 1 year left! If you know you want to be a dr, don't let people convince you to give up. You might try appealing, asking for a leave of absence with the justification of coming back after your other issues are cleared up, and a plan for what you'll do in the meantime (ie- improve study skills, get some counseling, etc). My school would totally support that- don't know about your school. And there are a lot of options to consider right now, permanent or temporary. All the other health fields, research, teaching... Just don't ever give up!
 
FlyinBryan said:
I agree with those recommending you secure a medical leave of absence.
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This probably won't help D1Student1T any, but for any other students reading this who are having difficulties in med school due to medical reasons (whether psych or physical):

If you are planning on asking for a MLOA, put in for it BEFORE you fail your classes.

If you have problems with ADHD, depression, anxiety or a physical issue, and it is affecting your coursework, seek treatment and notify your school immediately. Most med schools will be sympathetic and work with you.

But if you wait until after you've failed multiple classes and are in the process of being dismissed, your explanation that it is a medical issue is much more likely to fall on deaf ears than if you acknowledge the problem before the school is trying to actively get rid of you. Waiting until after the fact might give the impression that you're grasping at straws.
 
This probably won't help D1Student1T any, but for any other students reading this who are having difficulties in med school due to medical reasons (whether psych or physical):

"If you are planning on asking for a MLOA, put in for it BEFORE you fail your classes.

If you have problems with ADHD, depression, anxiety or a physical issue, and it is affecting your coursework, seek treatment and notify your school immediately. Most med schools will be sympathetic and work with you. "



Agreed. It's always better to take the MLOA before you're in the hole. However, the OP is already in the hole, and should do what he must do to secure the medical leave of absence. If he is, indeed, suffering from some medical or psychiatric condition, and a health professional can document such, he may have a case for taking an MLOA over a dismissal. It's possible that the school would give more consideration to him, if not wholly from genuine concern, then from a fear of liability.

Furthermore, a person may not fully realize he's suffering from such a condition until it manifests itself via external indicators: i.e. getting fired from a mob, failing classes, failing marriage, etc.
 
It makes me sad that someone has gone through all of this to end up where you are. I don't know what the right answer is, but I hope you can pull things together. Life is full of stress... that's life; just deal with it - confront it - delaying the inevitable is pointless.
 
They have medical school instensive study skills courses?!

Anybody have more info? I've been looking for one! I even called Kaplan but they didn't know.
 
I did not have time to read all the posts so please forgive me if someone has said this already.
It is close to impossible to get re-admitted to med school after being dismissed. I know there are examples out there but you have no idea what hoops you have to jump[ through to get it done. I would suggest that you fight like hell to stay in school even if you have to repeat. Do not get that dismissal on your record.
It makes you persona non grata for all schools except the one you were dismissed from and even then you would have a hard time convincing them to give you a second shot.
If they can grant you a leave of absence or a repeat then take it but fight against the dismissal no matter how bleak it looks.
 
:)
 
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D1Student1T said:
Thanks for all the advice, everyone, it means a lot. Right now it's a lot to digest, but the truth of the matter is, I am well and truly burnt out at this point. As far back as I can remember I have been monomaniacal about being a Doctor. Volunteered in hospitals throughout high-school and college, got a job stocking supplies in the summers, had to get into a good college, always had to make Dean's list, do extracurriculars that would look good, get into the Med School I wanted...
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OP, people change and circumstances change; doors close and open. As you wade through the other suggestions on this thread and try to decide what's best for you, bear in mind how much of your life you likely have left to live richly. As much as it hurts right now to think of building a new identity for yourself after X years of envisioning yourself as a physician and striving for that goal, please believe that this crisis may very well be the first step toward a wonderful new career. I'm not saying you should walk away without fighting, if fighting is what you want to do (and I'm not sure that it is, given your statement about being "well and truly burnt out"). Just keep your mind open to new possibilities and focus on the future. Take heart. You will get through this, and whether or not you become a doctor in the end, you will be a stronger and wiser person for the experience. :luck:
 
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