Choose a school with a good clinical education

Dr.BadVibes · Jul 28, 2004

I know that no one believes what I say on this forum, but when you guys are choosing a school, you must look past all the stupid rhetoric of "this is the school for speicalization" blah blah blah, because if you take the time and look at the stats yourself, you'll see this is just not true. Choose a school with a great clinical education, because dentistry is a CLINICAL profession (unless you go into research, which is a different story).

This was a priority for me when I chose a school, but there are plenty of schools other than Temple that give a lot of clinical experiences, that also NEVER close the door for specialization if you ever choose to go this route.....try to find out what the clinical exposure each school gives you....and since no one will beleive me when I say this, I took the liberty to give you some quotes from some dentists at DentalTown (www.dentaltown.com), found on the thread called "Which schools to apply too?"

"go to a school in a metropolitan area if possible (better patient pools, but also negatives including higher crime), the payoff is more experience in school and more confidence upon graduation."
- Jon Ludwig DMD

"Look for a school with a big emphasis on clinics and patient care stay away from mostly academic or research oriented schools....Find out what the requirements are in clinic for graduation. Although it might seem you want low requirements, too low requirements may indicate a misfocus in my opinion away from the clinical education experience."
- Paul Honeycutt DDS

"I agree with all the comments of the value of going to a school that emphasized clinical education. Many of the schools, including, alas, my alma mater, USC are searching for dentists to be replacements for the large shortage of dental educators and researchers. I personally think that any Problem Based Learning models are dangerous that you throw the dice on how much clinical experience. clinical time, clinical time, clinical time!....I am shocked what new dentists HAVEN'T done. I did 30 crowns and 3 full sets of dentures and countless fillings in school. I did 3 perio surgeries, extracted quite a few teeth. I hear stories from those in the know that many students can get out with only doing 3-5 crowns....there really is a vast difference in training in schools. They are pretty much told what to do with basic sciences in order to train you to pass the national boards, but clinically they are night and day."
- Frank Nelson DDS

"I went to UMDNJ(U of med and dent of NJ)... got to do 3x the dentistry of a normal dental student. I was done with my requirements by around feb. Because we were done so early we got to do lots of advanced stuff. Saw an avg of 6-8 patients a day. Felt that it gave me a real jump when going into my residency and then into private practice."
- Rich Rosenblatt DMD

"here's my 2 cents. I can only speak for one school, but if YOU have a brain AND can relate to human beings not just textbooks and plastic teeth, TEMPLE is the place for you. Their academics are above average, but probably not cutting edge. It's real strength is that it will make you, if you have the above qualities, an excellent WORKING dentist. They literally have thousands of patients banging down the doors to be treated. Clinical faculty is awesome, especially the part time, "real world" dentists who teach you the real way to practice. Their clinical requirements to graduate are very large, so you'll be treating tons of patients just to graduate. If your a hustler you can do alot more and really learn a ton. I graduated feeling very comfortable in my clinical abilities and transitioned into private practice smoothly"
- Dont know the name

"Superdiver has the right idea on all counts. Don't rack up any more student loans than is absolutely necessary and the education begins AFTER school. Find a school with as much clinical exposure you can....Education truly begins AFTER school. It took me a few years to figure that one out. The diploma just means you spent a lot of extra time and money and read more books and took more tests on a specific area of medicine we call dentistry. A diploma is not the be-all nor is it the end-all. It is just the beginning of a great career"
- Derek Stokes DDS

"A friend of mine went to BU endo school and felt that because of their many postgraduate programs competing for patients, the undergraduate clinical experience suffered."
- Stuart Osaki DDS

jheidenr · Jul 28, 2004

All the (good) dentists I have spoken with about choosing a school have reflected these comments as well. Its all about getting the clinical expereince that will give you the confidence you need.

fleisch · Jul 28, 2004

jheidenr~
You go to U of A correct? DDS club?? I go to U of A as well, and am currently applying to dental schools.....I actually am taking my DAT in three days! Yikes! What are your plans?? Just PM me if you want..

Dr.BadVibes · Jul 28, 2004

A quote from another thread by Dr.SpongebobDDS that I thought was relevant for this thread:

"If science is what gets you excited you should probably not go into any of those fields and get a PhD instead. Yes, you have to have a good understanding of the science behind your practice, but once you've acquired that knowledge it's all about applying it. The healthcare professions are primarily technical in nature. The optometrist sits in his dark room all day asking "1 better, 2 better?", the dentist is a manual laborer - well paid - but still a manual laborer. The physician is a prescription writer.

I promise you the dentist isn't thinking about osteoclasts and osteoblasts when banding up an orthodontic case; the physician isn't going through the chemistry involved when prescribing a medication. They are simply doing what they have been taught to do when presented with a given set of circumstances. I'm NOT saying doctors don't have to think, but the people doing the real science in healthcare are behind the scenes. PhDs working on new drugs, developing new materials, engineering new machines, that's where the science and the real creativity lies."

Dentin068 · Jul 29, 2004

In this rare circumstance Dr.BadVibes, I will have to agree with you. Clinical Schools are the best schools, ones that put patient-care first rather than research.

Dr.BadVibes · Jul 29, 2004

Dentin068 said:
In this rare circumstance Dr.BadVibes, I will have to agree with you. Clinical Schools are the best schools, ones that put patient-care first rather than research.

yet you are dying to get into Penn

hockeydentist · Jul 29, 2004

Put in a good word for me man,

Can I crash at your place if I get an interview! JK

HD

Dr.BadVibes · Jul 29, 2004

hockeydentist said:
Put in a good word for me man,

Can I crash at your place if I get an interview! JK

HD

yah definitely...invitation is there bud....just keep me updated....

Doggie · Jul 29, 2004

hockeydentist said:
I've got a fever and the only prescription is more cow bell"
Blue Oyster Cult-SNL
HD

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I love that line!

Mr.E · Jul 29, 2004

What are some schools that any of you are considering with strong clinical experiences as opposed to just academics?

onetoothleft · Jul 29, 2004

FIrst of all, thank you for starting this thread. This is one of the biggest concerns for me going into dental school, and I was wondering if you could help me understand more . . .

I feel like I have a pretty good chance getting into the schools I applied to, but I want to go into primary care, hopefully even without doing a residency if possible (fingers crossed). If I got into places like Harvard and Columbia, would it be a mistake for me to go there? Should I say no to Harvard to go to Tufts or Temple??

Dr.BadVibes · Jul 29, 2004

Mr.E said:
What are some schools that any of you are considering with strong clinical experiences as opposed to just academics?

Temple
Tufts
NYU
USC

THese are the ones I know for sure, but there are a ton more, but I dont know them....perhaps others can add to this list...

Dr.BadVibes · Jul 29, 2004

Well, everything I know has been done from this site, DentalTown, talking to dentists, students, etc. So, of course Im some guy on an anonymous forum and always am questioned about my views so I advise you to do similar research that I did, and you should come to the same conclusions.

If you wanted to go into research or something like that, than going to Harvard or Columbia would be the best choices......but since you want to only do primary care and be a dentist like 99% of applicants, than I would definitely goto a strong clinical school....Harvard is definitely not the place for this, and they will tell you this outright without beating around the bush....unfortunately, Columbia doesnt do this and I feel they give interviewees misleading information....if you read the infamous thread "is columbia really that good" you will see that apparently Columbia is putting more clinical emphasis in its program, but who knows if anything has been implemented yet, or the extent of the emphasis.

For most interviewees, we are kinda clueless on the whole dental school experience....and adcoms know this....like someone said before on this site, adcoms are like used car salesmen...they are trying to sell their school and will tell the interviewees exactly what they want to hear....for instance, at my Columbia interview, they kept on talking about specialities, how much money specialtists make, its international reputation, alumni, going to an Ivy League school, blah blah blah....and I just wanted to puke when I saw how everyone was eating this up like candy.....but I can see how this information would excite people.....but I knew coming into the interview that one can specialize coming from ANY school and that the foundations of a good dental school is in their clinical education....not their alumni support...not their international reputation.....but clinics.....remember, adcoms know we are stupid and naive and they use this to pounce on us like young cougars.....

so tHe best thing I would suggest is to be really prepared and know your $hit and really really understand what it is meant by clinical education...for instance, the clinical requirements for graduation vs. how much actual clinical experience a student gets (by talking to 4th years)....then take this info and goto each interview and ask them the hard questions....Im not saying to not goto Columbia....but instead, look past the elitism and Ivy League crap that usually blinds people of the realities of the school, and ask them exactly what their clinical exposure is like....I mean DETAILS.....and compare this to other schools....then from their, a decision will become more clearer....

Personally, out of the schools I interviewed at, Tufts and Temple were the best clinically and in my opinion are some of the best choices out there...I know its hard to say "reject Harvard and goto Temple" with a straight face to others....my friends thought I was on crack, but my friends also dont know dick about dentistry or dental school.....but of course this is my opinion and its important you do your own research instead of listening to me....you should come to a similar conclusion and if you didnt, then something went wrong :laugh:

Dentin068 · Jul 29, 2004

Dr.BadVibes said:
yet you are dying to get into Penn

Yes I would much rather goto UPenn than NYU, and I would admit that UPenn is a better school than NYU. But NYU is not a bad alternative. The cost of both schools are pretty much the same. NYU over-estimates some of their costs. I'll actually be paying ~69K for the year. UPenn is about the same cost. Also UPenn is a pretty good clinical school as well as a good research school. Well known schools are always more attractive

Dr.BadVibes · Jul 29, 2004

Dentin068 said:
Also UPenn is a pretty good clinical school as well as a good research school. Well known schools are always more attractive

I would be skeptical about this statement, but since I didnt interview at UPenn, I cannot comment.....however, how did you come to this conclusion...do you even know the exact clinical exposure at UPenn?

Dentin068 · Jul 29, 2004

Dr.BadVibes said:
Well, everything I know has been done from this site, DentalTown, talking to dentists, students, etc. So, of course Im some guy on an anonymous forum and always am questioned about my views so I advise you to do similar research that I did, and you should come to the same conclusions.

If you wanted to go into research or something like that, than going to Harvard or Columbia would be the best choices......but since you want to only do primary care and be a dentist like 99% of applicants, than I would definitely goto a strong clinical school....Harvard is definitely not the place for this, and they will tell you this outright without beating around the bush....unfortunately, Columbia doesnt do this and I feel they give interviewees misleading information....if you read the infamous thread "is columbia really that good" you will see that apparently Columbia is putting more clinical emphasis in its program, but who knows if anything has been implemented yet, or the extent of the emphasis.

For most interviewees, we are kinda clueless on the whole dental school experience....and adcoms know this....like someone said before on this site, adcoms are like used car salesmen...they are trying to sell their school and will tell the interviewees exactly what they want to hear....for instance, at my Columbia interview, they kept on talking about specialities, how much money specialtists make, its international reputation, alumni, going to an Ivy League school, blah blah blah....and I just wanted to puke when I saw how everyone was eating this up like candy.....but I can see how this information would excite people.....but I knew coming into the interview that one can specialize coming from ANY school and that the foundations of a good dental school is in their clinical education....not their alumni support...not their international reputation.....but clinics.....remember, adcoms know we are stupid and naive and they use this to pounce on us like young cougars.....

so tHe best thing I would suggest is to be really prepared and know your $hit and really really understand what it is meant by clinical education...for instance, the clinical requirements for graduation vs. how much actual clinical experience a student gets (by talking to 4th years)....then take this info and goto each interview and ask them the hard questions....Im not saying to not goto Columbia....but instead, look past the elitism and Ivy League crap that usually blinds people of the realities of the school, and ask them exactly what their clinical exposure is like....I mean DETAILS.....and compare this to other schools....then from their, a decision will become more clearer....

Personally, out of the schools I interviewed at, Tufts and Temple were the best clinically and in my opinion are some of the best choices out there...I know its hard to say "reject Harvard and goto Temple" with a straight face to others....my friends thought I was on crack, but my friends also dont know dick about dentistry or dental school.....but of course this is my opinion and its important you do your own research instead of listening to me....you should come to a similar conclusion and if you didnt, then something went wrong

Why didnt you goto Tufts?? What were you thinking, you say you got into Tufts and NYU .....and your ultimate decision was Temple. Hmmm...sounds quite truthful. :laugh:

And you are the only one I know that would reject Harvard and goto Temple. It just goes to show how full of $hit you are!

Dr.BadVibes · Jul 29, 2004

Dentin068 said:
Why didnt you goto Tufts?? What were you thinking, you say you got into Tufts and NYU .....and your ultimate decision was Temple. Hmmm...sounds quite truthful.

I got into Columbia and BU as well....what was I thinking in the end choosing such a crappy, non-prestigous school!!!

Its true that NYU and Tufts are great clinical schools, so why did I choose Temple? Aside from its incredible clinical exposure you can goto this thread for the answer:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=139470

Dr.BadVibes · Jul 29, 2004

Dr.BadVibes said:
I know its hard to say "reject Harvard and goto Temple" with a straight face to others....my friends thought I was on crack, but my friends also dont know dick about dentistry or dental school

dentin068 said:
And you are the only one I know that would reject Harvard and goto Temple. It just goes to show how full of $hit you are!

I guess my friends arent the only ones who dont know dick....

ItsGavinC · Jul 29, 2004

Dentin068 said:
And you are the only one I know that would reject Harvard and goto Temple. It just goes to show how full of $hit you are!

Harvard has a pitiful dental school that is underfunded and will always be second fiddle in terms of funding and education to their medical program.

There are probably 40 schools I'd rather go to than Harvard.

And I DO know a lot about schools.

ItsGavinC · Jul 29, 2004

Dr.BadVibes said:
Temple
Tufts
NYU
USC

THese are the ones I know for sure, but there are a ton more, but I dont know them....perhaps others can add to this list...

I'm hoping that Arizona can be a legit school on that list in coming years.

Our program is designed to be a *tremendous* clinical school (probably more so than any other school out there), but we haven't gotten to the clinical years yet, and like everything else, there will probably be minor bumps along the way.

Our clinical years are comprised of 2 years in the on-campus clinic and 6 months doing rotations at away sites in areas of dentistry that we feel the desire to focus on. I've very interested in rotating through some clinics in New York, for example, where trauma cases are somewhat high. I also have a doctor back home in Utah that I'm hoping to spend a month with. And, our dean is insisting we do rotations through Jamaica (geez, do I have to?)

It could either turn out really awesome, or sort of shoddy to begin with. All signs right now point towards really awesome, but we'll see. Medical models have had much success with this type of learning so it is a feasible method.

captaintripps · Jul 29, 2004

ItsGavinC said:
Harvard has a pitiful dental school that is underfunded and will always be second fiddle in terms of funding and education to their medical program.

There are probably 40 schools I'd rather go to than Harvard.

And I DO know a lot about schools.

It's probably inappropriate to be putting down dental schools on this board.
Aren't you some type of moderator??

Sprgrover · Jul 29, 2004

captaintripps said:
It's probably inappropriate to be putting down dental schools on this board.
Aren't you some type of moderator??

Gavin is being honest. I for one appreciate such feedback - and if you read the forum etiquette and FAQ's thread you will realize that disagreements are tolerated. Nowhere on SDN will you find a contractual agreement binding all posters to nothing but praise for all dental schools.

captaintripps · Jul 29, 2004

I doubt a predoctoral student attending a school devoid of reputation is justified in denigrating any institutions at all.

jheidenr · Jul 29, 2004

So being from a school that is laden with reputation makes its students the voice of authority?

The truth is that anyone is justified is saying whatever they want in this forum as long as they abide by the rules set forth by its administrators. Furthermore, I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinions and sharing them with the public.

Dentin068 · Jul 30, 2004

Dr.BadVibes said:
I got into Columbia and BU as well....what was I thinking in the end choosing such a crappy, non-prestigous school!!!

Its true that NYU and Tufts are great clinical schools, so why did I choose Temple? Aside from its incredible clinical exposure you can goto this thread for the answer:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=139470

Ok now I really believe you, going to Temple after getting accepted to Columbia. Columbia has a good program. Are you saying that Temple is better than Columbia? If you are, I dont know what you are smoking.

KrebsPsycho · Jul 30, 2004

Dentin,
Do you have a crush on Dr. BadVibes? :laugh:

toothpixie · Jul 30, 2004

i'll be attending a strongly didactic school, although i'm pretty sure i want to be a GP. i do plan on either a GPR (preferably) or AEGD afterwards to hone those clinical skills. *Hopefully* by then, i'll feel as comfy in my level of competency as any new, confident dentist aims to feel in regards to both aspects. all in all, it will take me a year longer, but it gives me some peace of mind.

of course, that might not float everyone's boat! We all have our preferences on how we feel dentistry should be learned. This, i have also heard from other practicing dentists.

Dentin068 · Jul 30, 2004

KrebsPsycho said:
Dentin,
Do you have a crush on Dr. BadVibes?

LOL

ItsGavinC · Jul 30, 2004

captaintripps said:
It's probably inappropriate to be putting down dental schools on this board.
Aren't you some type of moderator??

Shucks, I'm always forgetting that moderators can't have opinions.

But as an aside, I don't moderate this forum (only the Dental forum), and I make it a point to only take moderator actions when members complain. I figure the forums naturally moderate themselves.

I'd prefer people to NOT think of me as a moderator first, but a member first and a moderator second. I've been a member here for far, far longer than a moderator, and not too long ago I was a bushy-tailed applicant asking the same questions everybody else is asking. I can only hope that after everybody here gets accepted they will move their conversations to the dental forum while continuing to help those in the pre-dental forum. We need more people around here who stick around after getting in and are willing to post information as well as opinions.

My post was not to put down Harvard, students at ANY dental school will get a solid education. My research has shown that Harvard dental students as a whole always feel they are living in the shadow of their medical counterparts, especially in terms of instruction, facilities, and funding. Harvard has an amazing success rate for matching with specialty programs, however.

Dr.BadVibes · Jul 30, 2004

Dentin068 said:
Ok now I really believe you, going to Temple after getting accepted to Columbia. Columbia has a good program. Are you saying that Temple is better than Columbia? If you are, I dont know what you are smoking.

Dude, you've already proven that you only care about the name of your school, and that no matter what the program is like, you'll choose name over anything else.....yah, you are a really mature and intelligent person!

Its too bad you have to settle for sloppy seconds (NYU), and although you can convince yourself that you are proud to be there, I can probably bet the farm that you are gonna hate NYU, cause you dont want to be there and you wont be able to brag to your friends about going to a prestigous school

onetoothleft · Jul 30, 2004

Prestige vs. clincal opportunity will always be a strong debate. I still feel very torn about it myself. If I don't want to specialize I guess prestige is irrelevant, but it would be so fun to say you went to Harvard

DDSSlave · Jul 30, 2004

onetoothleft said:
If I don't want to specialize I guess prestige is irrelevant, but it would be so fun to say you went to Harvard

Is "fun" worth the extra 100k? Besides, since when do you have to go to a prestigous school to specialize? If you can get into a residency from Harvard, you can do it from anywhere else. Show me the Harvard student with the sub 90 NDBE get into an ortho or endo program. "Harvard" doesn't work magic.

puncho · Jul 30, 2004

So prestige is only if you want to specialize?? I never thought about the clinical aspect, thx badvibes

Dr.BadVibes · Jul 30, 2004

onetoothleft said:
Prestige vs. clincal opportunity will always be a strong debate. I still feel very torn about it myself. If I don't want to specialize I guess prestige is irrelevant, but it would be so fun to say you went to Harvard

I dunno about strong because the correct answer is obvious, but it is definitely a debate....as sad as that is...

as far as the fun part...I think this statement would have been more relevant during undergrad where what you study has nothing to do with your future career and you still have your bragging rights.....but we are talking about going to a school that will be a major part of what kinda dentist one becomes...i would take choosing a dental school seriously...leave the bragging rights and useless prestige for your useless undergrad....thats what I did by doing my undergrad at the University of Toronto

Dr.BadVibes · Jul 30, 2004

puncho said:
So prestige is only if you want to specialize?? I never thought about the clinical aspect, thx badvibes

NO NO NO NO NO...dont think like this, becaue this is a common misconception that predents have...prestige means VERY VERY little when it comes to matching into a specialty...if you dont have the marks, you aint getting in, no matter what name is on your degree....I personally think that going to a prestigous schools is gonna hurt your chances because the entire class is full of gunners all wanting to specialize so its extremely tough and cut-throat to stand out because everyone knows that in order to specialize you need amazing marks.......just look at badabooms post that said that in his class of 75 at Columbia, 15 are applying to ortho...thats insane....maybe only 3 of them match but its definitely not gonna be high...so what are the other 12 people that dont match gonna do? Reapply the next year? But I thought Columbia was supposed to be the school to specialize?

Dont you think it would be better to goto a lesser known school where the people there just want to become general dentists and dont necessarily care about their marks....I think it would be easier to stand out from a class like that

just look at the stats of the so called "specialty schools" if you dont believe me....but beware of their answer, because when they give you specialty rates, they seem high and at first you might get wowed, but in reality, they include GPR/AEGD into these stats, and ANYONE can get into a GPR/AEGD no matter what schools you goto.....

Instead look at the stats of matching into ACTUAL specialties such as ortho, OMS, endo, etc.

Doggie · Jul 30, 2004

Dr.BadVibes said:
I personally think that going to a prestigous schools is gonna hurt your chances because the entire class is full of gunners all wanting to specialize so its extremely tough and cut-throat to stand out because everyone knows that in order to specialize you need amazing marks.......

Dont you think it would be better to goto a lesser known school where the people there just want to become general dentists and dont necessarily care about their marks....I think it would be easier to stand out from a class like that

So you are saying the reason you chose temple over columbia is cuz you rather go to a "lesser known" school where you can easily be top 10% of the class? Now I get !! On the same note, if you are top 10% in a "prestigious" school, wouldnt that make you look more attractive than a top 10% student in a "lesser known" school?

Prestigious or not............the best dental school is the one that you attend.

DDSSlave · Jul 30, 2004

Doggie said:
....if you are top 10% in a "prestigious" school, wouldnt that make you look more attractive than a top 10% student in a "lesser known" school?

possibly, but at that stage I'd imagine your interview and how you interact with the faculty and students is more important to them than the prestige of your school.

It may be possible to get into ortho from the top 30% (?) or so from Harvard. But the point is, if you can get into the top 30% at Harvard than you can get into the top 10% at Temple or wherever. So, there is no advantage to going to a prestigious school in order to specialize.

Dr.BadVibes · Jul 30, 2004

Doggie said:
So you are saying the reason you chose temple over columbia is cuz you rather go to a "lesser known" school where you can easily be top 10% of the class? Now I get !! On the same note, if you are top 10% in a "prestigious" school, wouldnt that make you look more attractive than a top 10% student in a "lesser known" school?

Prestigious or not............the best dental school is the one that you attend.

But if one did want to specialize, the smart thing to do would goto a school such as Temple that is known for producing general dentists, cause they will attract students that dont care much about grades and just want the damn DMD degree in 4 years and be done with it....then you'd be one of the few gunners and thus probably be top of the class....whereas at a prestigous schools, you really dont stand out, cause everyone is working just as hard as you to get the same thing...get it?

I do agree with you that it would look more attractive if you were at the top 10% at Columbia than at Temple, but my point is that it will be WAY harder to get into the top 10% at Columbia cause the class mostly contains people who want to specialize....this is an important point because if you are the top 10% at either school, you will probably both match so I dont understand when does the prestige come in?

toothpixie · Jul 31, 2004

what about didactic vs. clinical, rather than prestige vs. clinical?

cuz, whoa. i hope you don't mean that even after a GPR or AEGD i'd still have relatively weak clinical skills when starting out. I mean, doesn't it balance out in the end some way, with students who want more hands-on experiences opting for a GPR/AEGD?

The way it's been sounding so far on this thread is that there's very little, if any, hope for schools that tend to focus a bit more on the books. I plan to practice dentistry, and i do realize it is a strongly clinical profession. However, i also want to teach once a week, so I chose UCLA.

My thoughts did not involve prestige when choosing my school, but i was aware that in choosing it, i would need to look at school as more of a 5 year plan, rather than a 4 year or 3 year plan. That doesn't necessarily make it a bad decision. I kinda like the thought of being as thoroughly prepared as one could possibly be for a wet-behind-the-ears general dentist!

Dentin068 · Jul 31, 2004

Dr.BadVibes said:
Dude, you've already proven that you only care about the name of your school, and that no matter what the program is like, you'll choose name over anything else.....yah, you are a really mature and intelligent person!

Its too bad you have to settle for sloppy seconds (NYU), and although you can convince yourself that you are proud to be there, I can probably bet the farm that you are gonna hate NYU, cause you dont want to be there and you wont be able to brag to your friends about going to a prestigous school

LOL sloppy seconds. This is coming from a guy who really just got into one Dental School, that being Temple. Send me a post card from hell next year. I'll also be sure to hate Manhattan while Im in the NYC.

Also on a side note, this is just an example of residents that get into UPenn's Oral Surgery Program. Oral Surgery is one of the toughest postgraduate positions to recieve from what I understand. And there are NYUCD graduates that are in this program. Check it out: http://www.dental.upenn.edu/academic/oralsurgery/residents.html

Who says you cant specialize at NYUCD

Sprgrover · Jul 31, 2004

toothpixie said:
what about didactic vs. clinical, rather than prestige vs. clinical?

It depends on which aspect of the pedagogical experience the term 'didactic' is being applied to - academia or praxis. Just because one school emphasizes one over the other doesn't automatically mean that the other half takes a loss for it. Some schools do favor the books over the practice, though there are also institutions that offer a blended degree which produces not only a good clinical dentist but one which can function in an educational setting to pass on their knowledge and passion of dentistry.

I think the original intent of this thread was to create some dialogue about the importance of choosing, or at least be aware of the benefits of, a program that heavily invests in your approach to patients and their care as well as the community at large. Those nameplate schools with a perceived golden reputation do offer some good programs, though they by no means have exclusive rights to dentistry nor any of its specialties. There are many schools out there that offer great programs which turn out confident and professional students - many of which are just as competitive as those with an Ivy League name emblazoned across their diploma. With that said, there is no tangible benefit to attending many of these schools, especially if you want to be a general dentist or even specialize.

Toothpixie, I think your goal of combining your future dental career with instruction is wonderful. I can tell you're going to be a good dentist and hopefully become a good teacher. I believe that UCLA is nicely positioned to train you a both a dentist and a professor of dentistry. Don't get discouraged in your choice of schools because of some petty mudslinging and remember that an education is always a two way street: while the school can only provide the instruction, it is left up to you and you alone to assimilate it and put it to good use. Best of luck!

toothcaries · Jul 31, 2004

other good clinical programs that i'm familiar with include UT-Memphis, UoP, and maybe SIU...

i know temple has high temple requirements...but i'm not sure if this translates into being a good clinician...
UT lacks an endo program(a good thing for predocs)...and the grads from there seem very confident with their abilities...
UCSF is supposed to be a research school... but i've been impressed with the residents they've sent to my uni...same with the docs from pacific.

these are just some random thoughts that mean nothing.
you will get out of dental school what you put into it.

that said.... go to a state school if u have a choice.
you'll wish you did when u start making payments on that on that 300k loan.
regardless of the respective reps, there are no "bad" dental schools in the usa/canada....

toothpixie · Jul 31, 2004

Sprgrover said:
There are many schools out there that offer great programs which turn out confident and professional students - many of which are just as competitive as those with an Ivy League name emblazoned across their diploma. With that said, there is no tangible benefit to attending many of these schools, especially if you want to be a general dentist or even specialize...[also] remember that an education is always a two way street: while the school can only provide the instruction, it is left up to you and you alone to assimilate it and put it to good use. Best of luck!

I wholeheartedly agree, Sprgrover. VERY well said!

And thank you for your kind words of encouragement. i hope i can live up to them one day. There's a long road ahead of us, and I wish you nothing but the best as well.

Sincerely, Sujain

Dr.BadVibes · Aug 1, 2004

toothpixie said:
what about didactic vs. clinical, rather than prestige vs. clinical?

cuz, whoa. i hope you don't mean that even after a GPR or AEGD i'd still have relatively weak clinical skills when starting out. I mean, doesn't it balance out in the end some way, with students who want more hands-on experiences opting for a GPR/AEGD?

The way it's been sounding so far on this thread is that there's very little, if any, hope for schools that tend to focus a bit more on the books. I plan to practice dentistry, and i do realize it is a strongly clinical profession. However, i also want to teach once a week, so I chose UCLA.

My thoughts did not involve prestige when choosing my school, but i was aware that in choosing it, i would need to look at school as more of a 5 year plan, rather than a 4 year or 3 year plan. That doesn't necessarily make it a bad decision. I kinda like the thought of being as thoroughly prepared as one could possibly be for a wet-behind-the-ears general dentist!

You bring up an excellent ponit Sujain, but I think you are the exception in that you know exactly what you want and choose your school according to that....I agree that going to UCLA will make you a great teacher....you would probably never get the same thing out of it from schools like Temple because UCLA probably kicks Temple's ass in didactics.....and it doesnt hurt that you pay hardly nothing for tuition

....And although you want to be a GP, at least you are aware that coming from UCLA it'll probably be a 5 year program....at least you admit this and are willing to do this in order to become a great teacher....others seem to "overlook" or deny it.....

Dr.BadVibes · Aug 1, 2004

Dentin068 said:
Who says you cant specialize at NYUCD

i sure as hell didnt....Ive been saying the whole time that you can specialize from any school....Im glad you put up that link.....but I dont know if I would ever suggest NYU as a school to specialize cause with a class of over 300 students, woulnt be extremely difficult to get into the top 10% in order to match?

Dr.BadVibes · Aug 1, 2004

toothcaries said:
i know temple has high temple requirements...but i'm not sure if this translates into being a good clinician...

Ive always said on this site that going to a school isnt gonna guarantee being a good clinician, cause in the end its the persons natural abilities that will come into play somewhat.....however, my point is that with such high clinical requirements, you'll get a ton of practice, so even if you arent a natural at the beginning, with more and more practice, you'll hopefully become more proficient....just like any other thing right? Practice makes perfect....

mzalendo · Aug 2, 2004

I am dumbfolded by the amount of senseless Harvard bashing that has been advanced in this thread. I am equally amazed that such irresponsible bashing is being advanced by forum members that I have grown to respect for 2-3 years. Unfair analogies/comparison have and are being propagated about HSDM program. HSDM and HMS have a symbiotic relationship, it very true that medical school is probably the most highly acclaimed of the Harvard institutions. This does not predispose HSDM into any less of a dental school on the virtue of venturing of into a common curriculum geared at nurturing a competent and compassionate health care provider. I am undoubtebly proud to be part of HSDM, I am also proud to be capable of learning in the same context as my med school counterparts. Proud not arrogant, proud and aware that other schools have a different way, a different approach to a common end--the qualified oral healthcare giver.

toothcaries · Aug 2, 2004

you use lots of big words.

i know one too.."mayonnaise".
teehee

(kidding)

i dont think there is school bashing going on here..
...HSDM is a great school.
however, i dont think the HSDM stresses the side of dentistry that happens to be the subject of thie thread.
HSDM does produce very proud, competent, compassionate health care providers..
there is no question about that.

now does HSDM produce great confident clinicians right out of dental school...?
well....... i think that is still open for debate.

as a disclaimer, i'd put my hand skills up against anyone's...yet i happen to attend a uni that is not exactly know as a "clinical oriented" program.

mzalendo said:
I am dumbfolded by the amount of senseless Harvard bashing that has been advanced in this thread. I am equally amazed that such irresponsible bashing is being advanced by forum members that I have grown to respect for 2-3 years. Unfair analogies/comparison have and are being propagated about HSDM program. HSDM and HMS have a symbiotic relationship, it very true that medical school is probably the most highly acclaimed of the Harvard institutions. This does not predispose HSDM into any less of a dental school on the virtue of venturing of into a common curriculum geared at nurturing a competent and compassionate health care provider. I am undoubtebly proud to be part of HSDM, I am also proud to be capable of learning in the same context as my med school counterparts. Proud not arrogant, proud and aware that other schools have a different way, a different approach to a common end--the qualified oral healthcare giver.

toothpixie · Aug 3, 2004

Hey, thanks, Dr.BadVibes.

Summer is drawing to an end, so i just want to say that the Class of 2008 rocks!

Best wishes to everyone on the big change from pre-dent to dental student. It's good to be aware of the many strengths of all the schools out there, but i agree that it's not entirely the school that makes an awesome dentist, but also the actual student's passion for the field. Practice does make perfect, so we gotstsa get as much of it any way we possibly can-- whether through our school's curriculum/procedure quotas, or simply through our own determination.

i've been told it's like going to the gym. You can decide how much or how little of it you think you need, but having the discipline to do so and keeping it up is key.

Sincerely, Sujain :luck:

HBomb · Aug 3, 2004

I've tried to stay away from this thread, but it's too tempting, so I'm going to just chime in my 2 cents.

To me, if you go to a less clinically acclaimed school, you can and will eventually catch up clinically after d-school. So to me it's not the most important factor. It's more important to surround yourself with the best students, researchers, instructors, deans, staff, etc. Surrounding yourself with the best colleagues and future colleagues is one of the most important factors I can think of. I'll take HDSM as an example because it's our most extreme example...you have the opportunity to meet, interact, or potentially interact (some at your choosing, some serendipitously) with very, very bright individuals, some world-renown. This opportunity is something that I value a lot. Not that you don't have that opportunity at other schools (clinical schools) but I think most of us can agree that your odds are better at some schools (like HDSM) than others. To me, that's worth the trade off of being a less proficient clinician right out of school for the opportunity to build relationships with the "best" people. You can more easily improve the former after d-school than the latter.

Choose a school with a good clinical education

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