In trouble

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.

In_HOT_water

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
7
Reaction score
0
I'm looking for some much needed advice. I violated an honors policy at our school and got caught. Assuming that I don't get dismissed, I have to repeat the year. I'm looking at debt $250K+ by the time I finish now. Am I screwed for residency? Is this debt load worth continuing if I can get a 9-5 job for 70K+/year? Please advise.

Members don't see this ad.
 
In_HOT_water said:
I'm looking for some much needed advice. I violated an honors policy at our school and got caught. Assuming that I don't get dismissed, I have to repeat the year. I'm looking at debt $250K+ by the time I finish now. Am I screwed for residency? Is this debt load worth continuing if I can get a 9-5 job for 70K+/year? Please advise.

My advice, get a 9-5 job for 70K+/year.
 
In_HOT_water said:
I'm looking for some much needed advice. I violated an honors policy at our school and got caught. Assuming that I don't get dismissed, I have to repeat the year. I'm looking at debt $250K+ by the time I finish now. Am I screwed for residency? Is this debt load worth continuing if I can get a 9-5 job for 70K+/year? Please advise.

Repeat the year, if they let you. Even in a non-competative residency you will gross at least twice as much as $70,000 per year. Run the numbers for your entire working life and I bet you will come out way ahead.

Remember, paying back your loans is a cost of doing business. If at the end of the month after paying your loan payment you still have five or six thousand dollars more in your paycheck (and you still have 30 years of productive work ahead of you) then you would making $70K you are doing all right.

Just out of curiousity, what did you do?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I did something that is about as close to cheating on an exam without doing so. If I get high Step 1 score, can I still match into competitive specialty? Like ENT, Optho, Ortho? It feels so hopeless. My dean says I should be ok, but I don't know if he's really telling me the truth.

It's still early the game for me. I can leave medicine relatively unscathed right now. I'm just afraid I've screwed myself over permanently.
 
In_HOT_water said:
I did something that is about as close to cheating on an exam without doing so. If I get high Step 1 score, can I still match into competitive specialty? Like ENT, Optho, Ortho? It feels so hopeless. My dean says I should be ok, but I don't know if he's really telling me the truth.

I sure as hell hope not. your cheating demonstrates poor character. and you can't get a high step 1 score if you cheat on the exam since security is VERY tight.

ENT, ophtho, ortho?? what is wrong with you? students work their tails off for 4 grueling years just to have a shot at these specialties...and they don't cheat.

sounds like you are sorry for getting caught, not for having cheated. I hope you get dismissed. we don't need any dishonest doctors in this world.
 
Even the worst medical specialty is better than 95% of all other jobs. Hell even if you have to become an FP in rural Arizona thats much preferable to a menial clerical job or working at a dead end factory job.

Therefore your best option is repeat the year. Yes it will hinder your chances at the good specialties, but so what? The worst case scenario is you become a rural FP for a few years at maybe 60k per year. Like I said that beats out 95% of the other jobs in the marketplace.
 
doc05 said:
I sure as hell hope not. your cheating demonstrates poor character. and you can't get a high step 1 score if you cheat on the exam since security is VERY tight.

ENT, ophtho, ortho?? what is wrong with you? students work their tails off for 4 grueling years just to have a shot at these specialties...and they don't cheat.

sounds like you are sorry for getting caught, not for having cheated. I hope you get dismissed. we don't need any dishonest doctors in this world.

Technically, it wasn't cheating, but I'm really afraid that it can easily be construed that way. You have to really understand the finer details to see it in a different light. I don't know if I have the luxury to hope that a panel of profs will see it that way. I'm starting to get scared that I'm gonna be dismissed.
 
Not to be dismissive, but I think it's difficult to give advice about your chances without knowing a little more than "it's not technically cheating"

But knowing nothing else, even if you aren't expelled, an honor code violation goes on your record. I think you can forget about competitive specialties, since high-achieving students without diciplinary records don't all make it.
 
I say throw yourself at their feet and beg for mercy. Everyone makes mistakes and when you are in a highly competitive environment like medical school (especially in the early years) you are drawn to making wrong desicions.

Realize your mistake, beg for mercy, and move on.
 
You're not screwed. Someone in my school got written down in their Deans letter for doing something dishonest and still matched into a UC for peds. But yeah, I agree, you can kiss the competitive specialties good bye.
 
moo said:
You're not screwed. Someone in my school got written down in their Deans letter for doing something dishonest and still matched into a UC for peds. But yeah, I agree, you can kiss the competitive specialties good bye.

But peds isn't competitive. I'm that f*cked?! :(

Isn't there a way to recover from this?
 
AMMD said:
I say throw yourself at their feet and beg for mercy. Everyone makes mistakes and when you are in a highly competitive environment like medical school (especially in the early years) you are drawn to making wrong decisions.

Realize your mistake, beg for mercy, and move on.

This is good advice. And sheesh do you want to be a doctor or not? If so then do your best to make it, keep your standards high, don't f*^&^* up again and you will.
 
doc05 said:
I sure as hell hope not. your cheating demonstrates poor character. and you can't get a high step 1 score if you cheat on the exam since security is VERY tight.

For the record, I am an optometrist, not an MD.

RE: demonstrating poor character

I recall reading a survey published in one of the academic medical journals a few years back that questioned health science students on various forms of cheating such as cheating on exams, lying to attendings about a patient, or falsifying info in records.

The results were astonishingly similar for all health fields. Approximately 25% of all medical, dental, optometric, and nursing students admitted to cheating at some point in their professional training.

Interstingly, amongst law and journalism students, the rate was 75%.

Jenny
 
Members don't see this ad :)
MacGyver said:
Even the worst medical specialty is better than 95% of all other jobs. Hell even if you have to become an FP in rural Arizona thats much preferable to a menial clerical job or working at a dead end factory job.

.

I've never quite understood the notion amongst students of health professions that if you are not a doctor of some kind, that the only other option for you is a "menial clerical job" or working in a "dead end factory job." or flipping burgers.

Also, I worked as an optometrist for the IHS in rural arizona for 3 years, and it was one of the best experiences I have ever had. All of the physicians that I worked with also loved it. Rural Arizona is quite beautiful.

Jenny
 
In_HOT_water said:
But peds isn't competitive. I'm that f*cked?! :(

Isn't there a way to recover from this?

Hope that's troll that i'm smelling with this thread....
 
In_HOT_water said:
I'm looking for some much needed advice. I violated an honors policy at our school and got caught. Assuming that I don't get dismissed, I have to repeat the year. I'm looking at debt $250K+ by the time I finish now. Am I screwed for residency? Is this debt load worth continuing if I can get a 9-5 job for 70K+/year? Please advise.

Since a lot of people are thinking this but is afraid to say it. I WILL. STOP LYING TO GET ATTENTION. Until you give us more information, the suspicion willl continue to grow. You are anonymous on here. Either give us the complete story (which I doubt it exists) or go to the lounge if you want trivial attention.
 
I'm curious about what you actually did, and how it's not exactly cheating.

I agree with the "beg for forgiveness" tactic. What kind of specialty are you interested in?
 
In_HOT_water said:
But peds isn't competitive. I'm that f*cked?! :(

Isn't there a way to recover from this?

Wow, someone who cheated on a test and might get kicked out of school is dissing a group of physicians who for the most part are acting out of true generosity?

There is no way in heck you deserve to get into a medical school loser :rolleyes:
 
Cheaters never win, but winners always cheat in business... but that is why I chose medicine. If you feel that you need to follow that model then take the job. PS don't ask SDN. :thumbup:
 
MacGyver said:
Even the worst medical specialty is better than 95% of all other jobs. Hell even if you have to become an FP in rural Arizona thats much preferable to a menial clerical job or working at a dead end factory job.

Therefore your best option is repeat the year. Yes it will hinder your chances at the good specialties, but so what? The worst case scenario is you become a rural FP for a few years at maybe 60k per year. Like I said that beats out 95% of the other jobs in the marketplace.

I agree. But I just want to point out to our tremulous pre-med friends that even rural Family Practice Physicians make more than 60K per year. In fact, rural FPs probably do better than their urban counterparts. 110K peryear, they tell me is about the low end for FP salaries.

I don't want to start a flame war, I am just going by what I see in various salary surveys.
 
In_HOT_water said:
I did something that is about as close to cheating on an exam without doing so. If I get high Step 1 score, can I still match into competitive specialty? Like ENT, Optho, Ortho? It feels so hopeless. My dean says I should be ok, but I don't know if he's really telling me the truth.

It's still early the game for me. I can leave medicine relatively unscathed right now. I'm just afraid I've screwed myself over permanently.

If you have to cheat, you are probably not smart enough to get the grades you will need to even think about matching into Ophthamology or any of the other specialties that are so competative they have their own match. I rib people who are AOA but the reality is that most of them work very hard for their grades and deserve to match into those specialties.

As for feeling hopeless, well, just suck it up and muddle through.

Folks, all kidding aside, integrity is one of the most important character traits of a good physician.
 
Fantasy Sports said:
Wow, someone who cheated on a test and might get kicked out of school is dissing a group of physicians who for the most part are acting out of true generosity?

There is no way in heck you deserve to get into a medical school loser :rolleyes:

Word.
 
In hot water,
Without going into specifics, did you know at the time that what you were doing could get you into trouble?
 
Obedeli said:
In hot water,
Without going into specifics, did you know at the time that what you were doing could get you into trouble?

Heck, why not tell us the specifics?
 
AADD - definitely a stupid post... but for amuzement.. plus I am trying to reach 1000x posts.

Your a "Dumb A$$". You are worried about being kicked out... at the same time saying that you wants to remain competitive for ENT and OPT. AFTER YOU GOT BUSTED.

Do you normaly cheat (IT IS CALLED CHEATING Dumb A$$) in order to get good grades. Is that how you go into medical school? Is that how you plan to land a compet res. GO GET A JOB INSTEAD... maybe in the real world you will get some humbel pie.

I hope I don't end up at the same hospital/clinic as you.
 
docbill said:
AADD - definitely a stupid post... but for amuzement.. plus I am trying to reach 1000x posts.

Your a "Dumb A$$". You are worried about being kicked out... at the same time saying that you wants to remain competitive for ENT and OPT. AFTER YOU GOT BUSTED.

Do you normaly cheat (IT IS CALLED CHEATING Dumb A$$) in order to get good grades. Is that how you go into medical school? Is that how you plan to land a compet res. GO GET A JOB INSTEAD... maybe in the real world you will get some humbel pie.

I hope I don't end up at the same hospital/clinic as you.

For God's sake. Don't sugar-coat it. Tell him what you really think.
 
if i was lying on the operating table and found out my surgeon had cheated his way through school, i wouldn't feel too optimistic...

quit while you can, troll...
 
just had another thought...

while this may be the end of you medical career, your actions could be considered a good first step toward a "successful" career in politics...
 
Med school can drive people crazy, making them do anything it takes to pass.

I can sympathize with this kind of sketchy desperate behavior because the situation we are in IS extreme. So someone who resorts to cheating in some way shape or form to do well on an exam, I cant totally blame you, I partially blame the stresses put on you by the system that lead you to take drastic action.

On the other hand, if you are doing fine, i.e. passing, without cheating, and cheating to "better" your position in the class or to get one of those highly competitive residencies, take a second to come to the conclusion that it is not worth it.

I would just say you were super stressed under everything going on to the deans. Whatever you did, you didnt think it would be a big deal, you didnt even really think about it, and your sorry they took such objection to it, you would never do something dishonest like that, all that you want to do is put it behind you and go on. I think they cant argue with that.
 
We supposedly had a person using notecards during an OSCE and got caught (it was all on video), I wonder if this persons situation is something similar.
 
JennyW said:
The results were astonishingly similar for all health fields. Approximately 25% of all medical, dental, optometric, and nursing students admitted to cheating at some point in their professional training.

Interstingly, amongst law and journalism students, the rate was 75%.

Jenny

Does this surprise anybody...
 
In_HOT_water said:
But peds isn't competitive. I'm that f*cked?! :(

Isn't there a way to recover from this?

Maybe you shoulda thought of that before you cheated. Some of us work really damn hard for our C's here in med school and it really pisses me off that you're so worried about ****ing up your chance at a competitive residency. I might not get one because my grades are just average here, but at least I still have my pride!
 
katrinadams9 said:
Maybe you shoulda thought of that before you cheated. Some of us work really damn hard for our C's here in med school and it really pisses me off that you're so worried about ****ing up your chance at a competitive residency. I might not get one because my grades are just average here, but at least I still have my pride!

Preach it, girl
 
durak said:
if i was lying on the operating table and found out my surgeon had cheated his way through school, i wouldn't feel too optimistic...

quit while you can, troll...

It's interesting that a lot of people are attacking this persons integrity (perhaps rightly), yet everyone seems to have avoided the discussion about how many people actually DO cheat in med school. The studies seem to indicate that it's a fairly high number, and consistent accross health disciplines.

Any thoughts on that?

Is anyone on here brave or honest enough to admit that they themselves have cheated at one time or another while in professional training? If the research is correct, then at least some of the regular posters on here are cheaters.

Jenny
 
katrinadams9 said:
Maybe you shoulda thought of that before you cheated. Some of us work really damn hard for our C's here in med school and it really pisses me off that you're so worried about ****ing up your chance at a competitive residency. I might not get one because my grades are just average here, but at least I still have my pride!

grades? what are these "grades" you speak of? :D
 
katrinadams9 said:
Maybe you shoulda thought of that before you cheated. Some of us work really damn hard for our C's here in med school and it really pisses me off that you're so worried about ****ing up your chance at a competitive residency. I might not get one because my grades are just average here, but at least I still have my pride!


And for that matter, what's wrong with Peds? Or family practice? One of the top students in my class is going into Family Practice.

I suggest that a young, first year medical student not get too indignant about the non-competative specialties. You might actually like pediatrics and want to make a career out of it.

Also, the ranks of Internal medicine, family practice, and other primary care specialties are full of people who thought they wanted to be orthopedic surgeons but decided after a couple of years of residency that it wasn't what they really wanted. For my part, it took me exactly one week on my third year surgery rotation to decide that there was no way in hell I would ever do surgery, even if I had the grades for it.
 
JennyW said:
It's interesting that a lot of people are attacking this persons integrity (perhaps rightly), yet everyone seems to have avoided the discussion about how many people actually DO cheat in med school. The studies seem to indicate that it's a fairly high number, and consistent accross health disciplines.

Any thoughts on that?

Is anyone on here brave or honest enough to admit that they themselves have cheated at one time or another while in professional training? If the research is correct, then at least some of the regular posters on here are cheaters.

Jenny

I have many faults but being dishonest is not one of them. I have never cheated on an exam. Not only am I conditioned by my upbringing to not even contemplate it but the penalties for getting caught are so severe that it is not worth it.

In exchange for those extra couple of points on your test from cheating, at most medical schools you will be dismissed if you are caught. I worked too hard, and am too old, to blow my shot at being a physician for the sake of raising a C+ to a B-.

Besides, there is really no easy way to cheat on our exams. We sit in a big room in rows with empty desks between everyone. You are allowed nothing but a pencil and your test material. No PDAs, no notes, no nothing. Somebody who is going to cheat has got to give it a lot of thought. You have to be a premeditated cheater and not a "casual" cheater who might glance at somebody else's paper. Maybe somebody who lays out complicated plans to cheat doesn't belong in our profession.
 
Obedeli said:
In hot water,
Without going into specifics, did you know at the time that what you were doing could get you into trouble?

Sorry to be vague, but as you can probably guess from the situation I'm not going to give away anything that would identify the school I am from or what I did. I don't know if someone from the school might read this board.

I knew what I was doing was wrong, but I didn't know it would be so harshly viewed. I looked it like going 75 mph in a 65 mph zone. They're treating it like I did something so horribly wrong. The dean is on my side and sympathizes with me, but I don't know if that's enough. Assuming I don't get dismissed, I don't know what kind of future I can have in medicine.

What fields should I cross off my list?

ENT? Derm? Plastics?

I need to know what fields will still be available to me. Thanks.
 
In_HOT_water said:
Sorry to be vague, but as you can probably guess from the situation I'm not going to give away anything that would identify the school I am from or what I did. I don't know if someone from the school might read this board.

I knew what I was doing was wrong, but I didn't know it would be so harshly viewed. I looked it like going 75 mph in a 65 mph zone. They're treating it like I did something so horribly wrong. The dean is on my side and sympathizes with me, but I don't know if that's enough. Assuming I don't get dismissed, I don't know what kind of future I can have in medicine.

What fields should I cross off my list?

ENT? Derm? Plastics?

I need to know what fields will still be available to me. Thanks.

Oh. So it's just a matter of "big bad" versus "little bad"? I mean, four years from now, with no other transgressions - what's the big deal?

It is this: You knew it was wrong. You did it anyway. You plead innocence with a rationalization of your behavior. This is not the kind of thing one does once. This is frequently seen in a pattern of similar behaviors. So, my answer to your question is: All of them. Try corporate law instead.
 
In_HOT_water said:
I knew what I was doing was wrong, but I didn't know it would be so harshly viewed.

Did you know it was wrong before you did it? YESSSS... I am going to go home.. and tell my girl friend that I knew sleeping with another girl is wrong... but I did not think it would be viewed so harshly... give me a Funking break.

In_HOT_water said:
The dean is on my side and sympathizes with me, but I don't know if that's enough.

Why is the dean on your side? I would put you on probation and watch you closely. I hope this is not something like.. you remind the dean of his little girl and so he is having sympathy on you.


In_HOT_water said:
What fields should I cross off my list?.

You are still not learning... How old are you? I HOPE TO GOD YOU ARE A TROLL. Otherwise, your school sucks at picking student.

You are on your medical death bed.. and all you can think about is what am I going to wear when I am out of the hospital.
 
I think we've all cheated at some point in our academic careers (if not in med school, in college or high school or middle school). I know most of my class mates cheated on our "pharmacology" quizzes which were to be taken from any on campus computer at our own leisure. Its almost like our school didnt care if we cheated or not on those quizzes. You see, pharm was not really taught in a formal class to us, and the quizzes were so useless nobody felt bad about cheating. However, on the big unit exams it was understood not to cheat.

Cheating is relative.
 
I haven't cheated on anything. Ever. The way I see it, if you cheat you're only fooling yourself into thinking you know more then you do. Yes, med school is stressful, but most students don't resort to cheating. And by the way, In_Hot_Water, if you have to cheat on a med school exam, how do you think you'll do on the boards? If you can't hack taking a school test truthfully, you'll never place into a competitive residency.
You don't seem to have any remorse whatsoever for what you did so I have no pity for you. Suck it up.
At my school, if you cheat, you're out. No questions asked. No chance to "explain." No second chances.
 
In_HOT_water said:
Sorry to be vague, but as you can probably guess from the situation I'm not going to give away anything that would identify the school I am from or what I did. I don't know if someone from the school might read this board.

I knew what I was doing was wrong, but I didn't know it would be so harshly viewed. I looked it like going 75 mph in a 65 mph zone. They're treating it like I did something so horribly wrong. The dean is on my side and sympathizes with me, but I don't know if that's enough. Assuming I don't get dismissed, I don't know what kind of future I can have in medicine.

What fields should I cross off my list?

ENT? Derm? Plastics?

I need to know what fields will still be available to me. Thanks.

The post seems so trollish, and yet the single-minded dedication to what field you will be able to match into seems so out-of-place and pathetic. First, you should figure out why your Dean sympathizes with you. You should then try to make the committee feel the same way. If you can lobby the committee, you could probably not have to repeat the year. In fact, you could perhaps not even get a notation in your Dean's letter, again depending on just how "not academically dishonest" this incident of academic dishonesty is.

Second, your fetish for which field will "accept" you is really bizarre. Every program director in every field is going to feel somewhat skeptical of you. There will be many family practice and IM programs that won't interview you based on that blight and associated character questions. If you get a 250 Step I and have good research and clinical performance, you could still land a competitive specialty. You will need a convincing explanation for why you did whatever it is you did and what you learned from it. But, honestly, why are you fixating on an event (the match) several years in the future rather than just getting through this incident as undamaged as possible?
 
Yes you should be mostly concerned about getting kicked out, residency apps should be furthest from your mind at this point (although perhaps I do understand the notion that its best to have all the information and if you would rather go into business or something than be a primary care doc you might be better served giving up now). I also found your attitude toward peds and those that pursue it pretty damn arrogant
 
Have you considered going to FSU... for chiropractor's school?
 
this whole thread is pointless unless you can tell us some more information about what it is that you did. If its something that a lot of us would consider doing, but your school calls "cheating" then you're going to get a lot more sympathy. You have to understand what type of knee-jerk reaction the word "cheating" is going to get. Tell us more about what you did exactly and maybe you'll get some better advise.
 
In_HOT_water said:
But peds isn't competitive. I'm that f*cked?! :(

Isn't there a way to recover from this?

WEll not to be judgemental or anything, but there are consequences to your actions. I sympathize with the fact that you are now in hot water. BUt no one else is to blame. Just suck it up and figure out where to go now. If you really want to be a doctor then do it. Just do as well as you can and see where it leads.......
 
velocypedalist said:
this whole thread is pointless unless you can tell us some more information about what it is that you did. If its something that a lot of us would consider doing, but your school calls "cheating" then you're going to get a lot more sympathy. You have to understand what type of knee-jerk reaction the word "cheating" is going to get. Tell us more about what you did exactly and maybe you'll get some better advise.

Been asked of the OP before....still hasnt answered the question....Hmmm....feels very trollish......
 
I don't care whether OP is being serious or not, but I am surprised by how rude people here at SDN are considering we all inspire to be the compassionate, forgiving physicians no matter what kind of patients we will face in the future. Everyone makes mistakes, and yes, in extreme cases, one can make a mistake of cheating. Someone mentioned he wouldn't cheat to get a better letter grade considering a risk, but what if you are on a verge of failing a class and so desperate that you need to get a perfect score on the last quiz? And unfortuately you couldn't remember something that you are in danger of missing a question?

Don't get me wrong, I would never forgive a second cheating but, hey, we are all humans.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top