my problems(s)...

annh31 said:

Hi everyone,

Ok, I know everyone puts up their sob story here and asks for advice, but I am really beside myself and I'm hoping for some ideas regarding what I should do.

Here is my situation:

-will graduate in May, 3.9 gpa, 27mcat(i've taken it twice).
-excellent ECs, LORs, have done research, shadowing, studied abroad, etc.

So far, I've gotten into 3 DO schools. Have heard nothing from MD schools (except one rejection).


I have the utmost respect for DOs...I think they are great doctors and are complete equals with MDs. It's just that I never thought I would be one, and I feel like it's an option now simply because, well, it can be. I just don't want to go to DO school next year and think "I should have reapplied, this is not for me" etc. I'm just not sure if my heart is in it. If I got into MD school I'd go in a heartbeat and wouldn't think about taking a year off...

Now, I'm thinking - if I really wanted to be a doctor, I would go to DO school because in the end it's all the same. Agreed?

And I don't think deferring is an option because I really don't have a medical excuse and I don't think they'd let me defer without one (I'm pretty sure my reasons are not something I want to tell ADCOMs.)

So, if I take a year off and reapply, what if I don't get into MD (or DO) schools the next time? It's a big risk...and I would prefer to apply for the 2006 entering class, so I'd have to think - how much has my application really improved?

And if I apply June 1 - the application cycles are going to overlap a little bit. And if ADCOMs tell me to retake the MCAT, I'd have to take it in August (April is too close). But then my application would be delayed! And there's no guarantee my score would improve anyway.


Ok, so this is my problem. Thanks for listening. Any advice / direction is appreciated!

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Only you can really decide but I would recommend taking the MCAT ONE more time. It sucks, I know but it seems that you might kick yourself later on that you didnt do it. You still have plenty of time to take the April test and tkaing the August test is not as much as a disadvantage as everyone says. Try and focus on that horrible test because obviously you are very bright with your 3.9 GPA, etc. I would also recommend getting good recommendations and doing something unique. A 27 is really not bad at all so you can obvioulsy get 2-3 more points just by learning strategies and having a good day on the test. Good Luck!

hey, I would think about deferring if you think you have your heart set on MD. They can defer if you plan on doing some kind of service work. I would think about maybe doing something abroad which would look really good next year applying. Alsooooo... the application cycle still isn't over. have you gotten any MD interviews? Also... I truly think that the DO profession is up to par as the MD profession. gluck.

Sounds to me as though you've made up your mind but are hesitating to embrace it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that you would ideally want an MD. If this is true, you haven't yet exhausted all of your options at obtaining it. Definately retake the MCAT, and definately take on an extra activity (the suggestion to go abroad is excellent, that would catch the eye of adcoms). See if you can defer your DO acceptance(s) that way you know you're in somewhere next year. If you do all of these things then you'll have peace of mind when you finally do begin med school, wherever that may be. When I reapplied I had done a special master's program and taken on several other ECs, however I did wait two years and not one to reapply. I would suggest taking that extra year to really have a solid, revamped application. I know that seems like a long time but it really isn't and if you truly have your heart set on an MD that would give you your absoltely best shot.

I'm in a somewhat similar situation as you. I got into the two DO schools I applied to and am awaiting accept/reject post-interview from Penn State. I have not heard much of anything from the other MD schools I applied to.

I was thinking about reapplying but decided against it for the following reasons.

1) My application isn't going to improve that much in, what, like 4 months (assuming I wanted in for the class of 2010)
2) I am already in the DO schools now, if I reject my acceptances they probably won't let me in next time which leads me to 3
3) If I reapply, and don't get into MD schools, then what. The DO schools aren't going to want me because they will have probably figured out what I was up to
4) I don't want to wait to enter med school in 2007. By that time I could have been an MSII which = two extra years of sizable income.

I never imagined being a DO either, but since I'm not really hung on the initials, it just makes more sense to me to go ahead and matriculate this fall.

Annh31, you should be proud that you have gotten into THREE DO schools. I am in the same dilemma as you with very similar stats. I also took the MCAT twice already, and have considered a third time. But I have decided the DO route is best after considering all of my options. I have always been interested in family medicine and I feel that having a knowledge of OMM will definitely help when it comes to being part of a medical group or opening your own practice. If being an MD is simply about the letters, then you should really retrace your steps into deciding why healthcare was for you in the first place. For me it was simply to use my scientific interests and my desire to serve to help give others the best possible healthcare. Look into the more practical side of being a licensed healthcare professional without regards to the letters. I'm sure you have stepped into a medical office and have received treatment from nurses, physician assistants, etc., without questioning there professional status - and I'm sure that as a DO you will be honored for what you can do for your patient and not for the letters on your badge. If you want to reapply, then make sure your letters of recommendation are up to date. A problem with reapplying is that you are never sure of getting into an MD school (applicant pools change every year). So with that, I would say just keep your head up, and love the DO route for what it is. If you think that you are going to be the type to go through medical school thinking "I could have been an MD, why am I here?" then definitely go MD. This will distract you, and possibly place a damper on your relations with students and professors/osteopathic physicians who thoroughly love what they have to offer. There are probably many things bothering you about being a DO such as being a minority, having to prove yourself constantly, limited opportunities for getting competitive residencies, etc., but if you have no problem with primary care then I don't see the problem. If you want to subspecialize, have you considered going through with a military commitment and the DO? I don't know anywhere else where MDs and DOs are considered more equivalent than in the military. Although I really do know that MDs and DOs are equals in the U.S. Anyways, good luck with the decision. DO is good when you start seeing it for what it is and you stop comparing. It's a profession that will take you as far as you want, only if you are willing to put in the extra effort.

Though there are some osteopathic students who are going to be D.O.'s because they could not get into an allopathic school, most of us are going to an osteopathic school because we truly want to be osteopaths. If you truly want to be an M.D., why not go the carribean route? (AUC and Ross have produced students that end up getting great residencies)

If you really want an MD, then I'd defer for a year if you have the time.

Most schools look favorable upon post-graduate experiences (like working full time). I truely believe you'll become a much stronger applicant as time passes, given that you participate in enriching activites like research, clinical volunteering, etc...

I'd also try the MCAT one more time but only if you can clearly identify what your weaknesses were.

I know it's tough decision, but if you feel so strongly against DO, then don't attend.

Buckeye(OH) said:

I'm in a somewhat similar situation as you. I got into the two DO schools I applied to and am awaiting accept/reject post-interview from Penn State. I have not heard much of anything from the other MD schools I applied to.

I was thinking about reapplying but decided against it for the following reasons.

1) My application isn't going to improve that much in, what, like 4 months (assuming I wanted in for the class of 2010)
2) I am already in the DO schools now, if I reject my acceptances they probably won't let me in next time which leads me to 3
3) If I reapply, and don't get into MD schools, then what. The DO schools aren't going to want me because they will have probably figured out what I was up to
4) I don't want to wait to enter med school in 2007. By that time I could have been an MSII which = two extra years of sizable income.

I never imagined being a DO either, but since I'm not really hung on the initials, it just makes more sense to me to go ahead and matriculate this fall.

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What specialties are you leaning toward as far as residency goes (as voulpaix asked somewhere in that wall of text)?

Drakensoul said:

What specialties are you leaning toward as far as residency goes (as voulpaix asked somewhere in that wall of text)?

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Emergency med or hem/onc. Nothing to specialized.

Go somewhere you think you will be happy for four years. In the end you will be a physician whether you are an MD or a DO. Do you like any of the DO schools where you have been accepted? Location? Curriculum? Other students? If you don't feel any of these schools are a good fit for you: reapply.

As a med student, I can tell you that being in the middle of my four years I am more concerned with what I know and what I don't know in order to continue my training as a doctor. The initials that I will have after my name just don't matter.

annh31 said:

Hi everyone,

Ok, I know everyone puts up their sob story here and asks for advice, but I am really beside myself and I'm hoping for some ideas regarding what I should do.

Here is my situation:

-will graduate in May, 3.9 gpa, 27mcat(i've taken it twice).
-excellent ECs, LORs, have done research, shadowing, studied abroad, etc.

So far, I've gotten into 3 DO schools. Have heard nothing from MD schools (except one rejection).


I have the utmost respect for DOs...I think they are great doctors and are complete equals with MDs. It's just that I never thought I would be one, and I feel like it's an option now simply because, well, it can be. I just don't want to go to DO school next year and think "I should have reapplied, this is not for me" etc. I'm just not sure if my heart is in it. If I got into MD school I'd go in a heartbeat and wouldn't think about taking a year off...

Now, I'm thinking - if I really wanted to be a doctor, I would go to DO school because in the end it's all the same. Agreed?

And I don't think deferring is an option because I really don't have a medical excuse and I don't think they'd let me defer without one (I'm pretty sure my reasons are not something I want to tell ADCOMs.)

So, if I take a year off and reapply, what if I don't get into MD (or DO) schools the next time? It's a big risk...and I would prefer to apply for the 2006 entering class, so I'd have to think - how much has my application really improved?

And if I apply June 1 - the application cycles are going to overlap a little bit. And if ADCOMs tell me to retake the MCAT, I'd have to take it in August (April is too close). But then my application would be delayed! And there's no guarantee my score would improve anyway.


Ok, so this is my problem. Thanks for listening. Any advice / direction is appreciated!

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Go with your gut feeling on this one. You can get a good two months worth of preparation if you decide (soon!) to take this April's MCAT. If you can devote several hours a day to studying, you certainly can improve your score. Your GPA speaks for itself, so even another couple points on the MCAT may be all you need to get more attention from the MD schools. Such factors as state residence and application timing also must be taken into account. Taking the April MCAT along with an early application will work wonders for you for the next cycle. I understand your hesitation with wanting to go to an osteopathic school. I have similar hesitation with going to DO school myself, but moreso because I don't want to take a spot from someone who is truly devoted to becoming a DO physician. Keep this in mind when making your decision.

Honestly OP, I really think that your application timing may have been what held you back when applying to MD schools. My first application attempt was unsuccessful, and I attribute much of that difficulty to the timing of my application. I was waitlisted at one school and rejected post-interview at another. I made some minor additions to my application over the next year and made sure to turn the reapplication in as soon as possible. Before I could blink I had three interviews that became acceptances.

I think applicants with a minor deficit (your MCAT, my GPA) simply need to make sure that adcoms have not already accepted into their class students with similar credentials. We can't necessarily outsuperstar the gunners, but we can put our best foot forward early on in the application process and gobble up spots open to those of us with slightly imperfect applications.

If your heart is set on the MD, retake the April MCAT and get your applications in as early as humanly possible. Believe me, it's a whole new ballgame.

annh31 said:

dr. funk - did you take a full year off or did you apply during the next cycle? how did you change your application??

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I took the full year off between cycles. During that time I worked full-time in a molecular biology lab, volunteered for about 6 months at an ED, shadowed a couple doctors, and took a few graduate biology courses. I think the volunteering helped quite a bit, as I had no volunteer experience on my first application. Aside from that though, I think the timing of my second application was key.

Maybe deferral would be an option. I think there are some schools that allow you to defer without signing anything saying you will not be applying to other schools (at least I thought I had read that here). If so, that would allow you to hold a potential spot while getting your MD apps in on June 1st. In the case of the deferral, I guess I wouldn't even count on needing to take the MCAT for a third time...seems to me that it could easily do as much bad as good (if you are unable to get your score up due to hurried studying for the April test) and the beneficial timing could make up for it anyways.

Irregardless, good luck with this difficult decision and any potential applications...it seems to me that you are well on the way to making the right choice for you.

OP,

You sound very concerned about taking time off. 2years isn't the end of the world (unless you're closer to 30, which in that case, I can understand why time is sooooo important.) I applied in June of 2002 with no luck. However, I knew that there was no way to improve my app in 3 months considering my sub-par GPA. I needed the time to pick that up by doing a one year Master's.

I put in my second application in 2004 and have recieved 3 MD interviews so far, but no acceptances yet. Hopefully, I'll hear good news.

I don't know what you should do, but it sounds like you have the whole package except for the MCAT score...Like I said in an earlier post, time off can be a great time to experience new things, which only makes you a more unique and stronger applicant. I'd try for the Aug MCAT, then have everything ready for submission come June 2006. In the meantime, you could work full time in either a clinical or research setting, both of which would add to your ECs

Hope this helps!
Nina

Call the DO school that you liked and ask of you could shadow a student for a day or so. If you can afford to go back and take a second look, it will probobly make the decision much clearer. If you have an awesome time and get great feedback from the current students...go to the DO school. If there are still big doubts in your mind re: the degree or the school, then take the time to reapply.

WOW!!! We are in the same exact position. I wish you the best in whatever decision you make, as for me I am going DO. I simply feel there is not much of a difference MD DO and I dont see how I can logically improve my application drastically? I also dont have the stomach for another application cycle.

What DO schools are you considering? Perhaps were considering the same ones and dont forget to lock in your spot with a deposit if you want to go. Best of luck!

Ask yourself why you applied to the DO schools in the first place, if you're not even going to one when they're your only acceptances? Call me crazy but I didn't apply to a "safety" school, if I didn't get in to where I really wanted to go, then I didn't go.

Annh31, I'm in the same situation as you. I had seven MD intervews, one DO interview, and I matched at the state DO school. (waitlisted and on hold at two MD schools) I am considering reapplying too, partly b/c my stats are decent enough to be competitve at MD schools, but also because of parental pressure; they don't want me to be a DO. When I applied I focused on the similarities between MDs and DOs, not the differences. The DO school was my first interview, and after interviewing at the MD schools, I started dwelling on differences....so now I am confused.

The question we have to ask ourselves is whether or not we are willing to risk this process again. I, too, don't know what I could do to improve my app for the next cycle. Especially since I think it was my interviews that did me in, not my stats.

When you reapply, you really need to have improved your app somehow. Your GPA is fine, your MCAT is not bad, and you've got great ECs, LORs, etc. It seems like you're a bit of a victim of the process (what was your MCAT breakdown?).

Really the MCAT is probably the only place you could improve your app in just the one cycle. If you were to take the April MCAT you would know by June, and that would give you an idea about whether or not to submit a new AMCAS. Taking it in August doesn't give you that choice; you'll have to have already either declined your acceptances or been able to defer your entrance. If you don't improve on the August MCAT my feeling is that you'll have two strikes against you for the next cycle, 1) you declined a medical school acceptance and 2) you took the MCAT a third time without improving. It seems too risky to me...

Based on that I would lean toward just matriculating in the fall. If you absolutely must know whether you could get into an allopathic program and have the time and money, sign up for April and really bust your butt studying in March. With acceptances in hand, going down won't hurt you. And a drop in your GPA from concentrating on the MCAT won't hurt you either, as long as you don't get D's or F's. If you somehow improve significantly, that'll give you something to show MD schools next cycle. Alternatively, you can start asking now about your 3 schools' deferral policies. I think they range from school to school, so maybe one of the schools would be forgiving of an uncertain student and allow you a year to make sure the osteopathic path is the way you want to go.

If you don't think you can improve, really try to immerse yourself in the DO philosophy - read books, talk to students, talk to DOs, visit the schools again, shadow students, etc. Do whatever you need to do to put your mind at ease, and then matriculate in the fall.

How much does it count against a reapplicant if s/he got accepted into a medical school the first time around? (i.e. people who get accepted at DO schools but decide osteopathic medicine is not for them and want to become MDs instead)

hey,

just graduated from an MD school here in the states. I recommend that the person with the 27 take the MCAT again, contingent upon being able to improve his/her score significantly (30-31). If you can reach one of those scores you should be able to get into an MD school eventually (30 is the rule a lot of people go by, and by eventually, i mean 1-3 yrs of applying to 20+ schools) but when you have a first score, they often average it (i.e. scoring a 28 would be useless). Gosh, as far as considering matriculating into a DO program, I think that's good, and i don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers, but the degree is not as known and you will face future discriminations in today's current health care model (i am only hearing this from the dozens of DO's I know; I could be wrong). I'm sorry, but if you ask 5 people on the streets of NY what an MD is, at least 4 will know. At least 4 won't know what's a DO. Just my tidbit of advice, take it as you will.

annh31 said:

blueorchid, I feel ya. I know what this is like.

I'm meeting with a DO this week to talk with her about this. Basically, all I've been doing is talking to people and asking their opinion. Not surprisingly, it's mixed reviews. Last week 3 profs asked me within about 3 hours what I'm doing next year. It doesn't help that they're all like "geez Annh31, I really thought you'd get in. I never thought this would happen to you." Then it's a mixed bag between "the hell with it, you'll be a great DO" and "no, you should only do what you always wanted to do - reapply."

I am completely 50/50 on what to do. Some days I am so satisfied with my future and I can't wait to start school. Other days, I have no idea how I could go to DO school next year.

I am really scared of reapplying and taking the MCAT again. I know I have to retake if I want to successfully reapply. And what if I do worse?

I guess I am just bummed out that I didn't get a single MD interview. I've pretty much given up on getting one at any of the schools I have yet to hear from. And that's a complete bummer to me. My MCAT is 9-9-9, but I really think that lousy 27 is what's holding me back. Yet I feel like I'm sooooo close otherwise - that I would have been much more competitive if I didn't take the August MCAT and was complete earlier due to my other stats.

That's great advice about taking the April MCAT so that I could submit AMCAS in June if I needed/wanted to. Unfortunatly, I haven't cracked an MCAT book since last August, and I'd be afraid of doing worse. I don't think I could pull it together before April. August is a more viable option, but honestly, that would put me in the exact same position as I was for this cycle. And the thought of taking an entire year off and taking the MCAT in April 2006 is too much for me.

Ok, thanks guys. Even if you just read this, I appreciate it. I keep hearing what I should and shouldn't do, and I really just have no idea anymore. Darn you med school admissions and your ridiculous timeline and seemingly randomness and your number-fixation. I thought working hard in college and getting good grades and being really involved in campus life would help me in the long run, but let's be serious - it's all about numbers - and in my case, I think one lousy number is shutting doors for me.

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backontop said:

hey,
Gosh, as far as considering matriculating into a DO program, I think that's good, and i don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers, but the degree is not as known and you will face future discriminations in today's current health care model (i am only hearing this from the dozens of DO's I know; I could be wrong). I'm sorry, but if you ask 5 people on the streets of NY what an MD is, at least 4 will know. At least 4 won't know what's a DO. Just my tidbit of advice, take it as you will.

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Yes...lack of recognition is the main reason why I am hesitating to attend the DO school I got accepted into. DO schools tend to downplay the amount of discrimination that their graduates receive in the workplace, so I hear reports of both happy DOs and dissatisfied DOs. Which is more common?

btw I have a 32 MCAT and 3.7 GPA; is that competitive enough for most allopathic schools?

why would you apply to DO schools if you didn't really want to go to one? Did you apply with the intention of turning them down? it seems to me like you didn't think that all the way through; it's a great profession (just like MD) as you said yourself, i would go to a DO school and start my professional career if i were you. i think this is the best decision personally; but again, it's up to you.

buffalomoose said:

why would you apply to DO schools if you didn't really want to go to one? Did you apply with the intention of turning them down? it seems to me like you didn't think that all the way through; it's a great profession (just like MD) as you said yourself, i would go to a DO school and start my professional career if i were you. i think this is the best decision personally; but again, it's up to you.

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My interview at the DO school was my first (TX med schools have a separate application from AMCAS and the DO school took part in that app. I applied to all the TX schools) and I really liked it at the time. But later, after interviewing at MD schools, all I heard was how DOs are still disadvantaged in the medical profession, and I developed second thoughts about whether or not I would like to go there in the fall. And as it turned out, it's the only school that's accepted me so far. So to answer your question...at the beginning I did not apply to any schools that I planned on turning down. My reluctance to embrace a DO profession developed over time, so yes, maybe I didn't think everything through before I applied. Now all I can do is decide what will be best for me in the long run.

To the OP;
Believe me as I say, DO and MD mean nothing. It's up to you to give them a significant meaning. There are a good amount of good and bad physicians(DO and MD), and that is related to the person not the profession. In my opinion, I would enroll to DO School in a heartbeat. Ever hear the joke that goes ... What do you call the med student who finishes last in his/her class? DOCTOR!

You will be one either way. I live in NYC and the people here are very DO friendly. At Lutheran Medical Center you will be amazed by the numbers of DO's on staff. 95% of the surgical residents there are DO. You have nothing to lose, only the knowledge which we all seek. Do the right thing and become the physician you always wanted to be.

BK