Ok, I'm an idiot- but I don't know anything about our healthcare system!

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koalabear

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I know you'll probably think I'm dense, but I don't know a single thing about our healthcare system or how to improve it or what's wrong with it. The only thing I know is a vague difference between Medicare and Medicaid and that insurance is really high but that's it. I know it's a big interview topic and I think there may be a thread about this already but I couldn't find it. Could someone give me a Healthcare in America 101 lesson please. Thanks!

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You are probably not the only one, so just read up.
 
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if you read the health section of the new york times fairly regularly (you can get a free on-line subscription), you will gain a good understanding of the current issues. from my experiences in interviews, i don't think you need to get yourself involved in reading a bunch of books. just know the basic issues and problems facing healthcare in the U.S. and, if you have time, maybe look up the issues facing socialized healthcare systems and compare them to the U.S.'s system. it won't take much research. best of luck.
 
koalabear said:
I know you'll probably think I'm dense, but I don't know a single thing about our healthcare system or how to improve it or what's wrong with it. The only thing I know is a vague difference between Medicare and Medicaid and that insurance is really high but that's it. I know it's a big interview topic and I think there may be a thread about this already but I couldn't find it. Could someone give me a Healthcare in America 101 lesson please. Thanks!

You're best off skimming Paul Starr's Social Transformation of American Medicine, but I'll give this a shot. Let's start with insurance:
Medicare is a state and federal program created in 1965 to provide health insurance for anyone 65 and older (and those in kidney failure, bc some politician's son/daughter had it and made a big deal about it, so it covers that too). It has two parts, one of which is mandated and the other which is "optional." Medicaid is a state and federal program for the poor ("poor" might vary from state to state and is probably based on the FPL, you may want to check on that). Medicare is by far the largest purchaser of health care services today - thus, if someone tells you that we don't have a government run health care system, they're wrong; government run health care plays a tremendous role in our hc system. So those are the two government run health insurance programs... variations include CHIP and other state programs (for instance, NJ has NJFamilyCare).
So what do you do if you're not poor enough to qualify for Medicaid or old enough to qualify for Medicare? You go through the private market and get managed care coverage. (Since everyone needs health insurance, employers decided it would be best for insurers to go through them - this gave employers tax benefits and also kept workers healthy) Managed care evolved as early as WWII but really took off in the late 1970s due to escalating hc costs. Until the rise of commercial health insurers (which was linked to the idea that one could actuarilly predict health expenditures for an individual based on demographics, past medical history, etc) doctors were paid on a FFS (fee-for-service) basis using indemnity insurance. This meant that doctors could get reimbursed by your insurance company for all tests provided. Doctors, who saw green, ran up costs by ordering full workups. If you went in for a broken leg, you could get a chest xray and all sorts of blood work done while you were at it. So this was all happening when the economy started going sour in the 70s. Economy bad = employers not doing so well, and meanwhile they have these absurdly high hc costs to pay for their workers. Enter commercial insurers. Employers and consumer groups put pressure on the government to do something about health care costs. In 1983, the government decided payment under Medicare (remember, this is the largest consumer) would be based on prospective payment, or DRG (diagnostic related group). Physicians would get a certain amount of money, revised every yr by the fed govt., for each condition, and that's it. Well you better believe this got doctors shipping patients out of hospitals damn quickly. DRGs were sucessful in intially cutting hospital costs and length of stay in hospitals. (on a side note, most studies indicate that quality of care was not lowered post DRGs). In addition to DRGs, insurance companies began doing utilization reviews (did this pt really need this test you ordered doc? if not, we're not gonna pay you as much) and requiring referrals from primary care physicians for tests ("gatekeeping"). HMOs, and variations thereof (based on flexibility in seeing specialists, premiums, etc) were tremendously successful at lowering costs. Initially. But administrative costs eventually soared and people caught on. Premiums (the amount you pay to your insurer every month in return for insurance) have now begun to skyrocket, meaning managed care is no longer successful at maintaining costs. This is probably bc people are getting older and sicker, as well as many other contentious issues relating to drivers of high cost health care (pharma, mktg, excessive use, etc). We are now in the midst of the "managed care backlash" which began in the late 1990s. 40M+ ppl (the entire population of Spain) are uninsured in America, but most of them are employed, meaning their employers aren't offering health care. Those that are unemployed aren't poor enough to qualify for Medicaid. Some state laws require hospitals to care for patients regardless of insurance status. ALL hospitals must provide emergent care to patients regardless of hospital status. Almost every study indicates the uninsured are sicker.
So that skims insurance.. I think they might ask you about malpractice. Directly, malpractice doesn't contribute significantly to health care costs, but it might indirectly. The problem is that there is a significant lag between when a doctor's malpractice premiums increase and when he/she can pass that cost on to patients, bc health insurers won't immediately cover increased costs. So this basic supply-demand problem leads to a shortage in certain specialties (OB and neuro i think). Malpractice is a cyclic problem, it comes and goes as a political issue every 10 yrs or so. The bigger problem is the affect it is having on doctor-pt relationships. Most hospitals cover malpractice insurance for their doctors, i think.
Finally, they might ask you about pharma. This is a loaded topic, you can look into it on your own. Basically, they spend as much or more on marketing as R&D. One can argue they need to, otherwise no one would no abt these drugs, which begs the question of whether the FDA should be informing physicians about drugs instead of pharma doing it and increasing the cost to pts. Pharma also does a lot of dirty things with patent extensions, which you can look into. Medicare didn't cover prescription drugs, which is why Bush signed into law the prescription drug modernization act. it has its +'s and -'s, although most academics think more -'s. It encourages overuse and has a big gap in coverage after a certain amount of money is spent on drugs. Also, it's confusing as hell for old folk.
So insurance, malpractice, and pharma... thats pretty much all they can ask you on the health care system and expect you to know. Other stuff you obviously have to formulate your own opinion (Terry Shavio sp?, etc). PM me if you have questions. Hope this helps :)
 
PerryCox said:
You're best off skimming Paul Starr's Social Transformation of American Medicine, but I'll give this a shot. Let's start with insurance:
Medicare is a state and federal program created in 1965 to provide health insurance for anyone 65 and older (and those in kidney failure, bc some politician's son/daughter had it and made a big deal about it, so it covers that too). It has two parts, one of which is mandated and the other which is "optional." Medicaid is a state and federal program for the poor ("poor" might vary from state to state and is probably based on the FPL, you may want to check on that). Medicare is by far the largest purchaser of health care services today - thus, if someone tells you that we don't have a government run health care system, they're wrong; government run health care plays a tremendous role in our hc system. So those are the two government run health insurance programs... variations include CHIP and other state programs (for instance, NJ has NJFamilyCare).
So what do you do if you're not poor enough to qualify for Medicaid or old enough to qualify for Medicare? You go through the private market and get managed care coverage. (Since everyone needs health insurance, employers decided it would be best for insurers to go through them - this gave employers tax benefits and also kept workers healthy) Managed care evolved as early as WWII but really took off in the late 1970s due to escalating hc costs. Until the rise of commercial health insurers (which was linked to the idea that one could actuarilly predict health expenditures for an individual based on demographics, past medical history, etc) doctors were paid on a FFS (fee-for-service) basis using indemnity insurance. This meant that doctors could get reimbursed by your insurance company for all tests provided. Doctors, who saw green, ran up costs by ordering full workups. If you went in for a broken leg, you could get a chest xray and all sorts of blood work done while you were at it. So this was all happening when the economy started going sour in the 70s. Economy bad = employers not doing so well, and meanwhile they have these absurdly high hc costs to pay for their workers. Enter commercial insurers. Employers and consumer groups put pressure on the government to do something about health care costs. In 1983, the government decided payment under Medicare (remember, this is the largest consumer) would be based on prospective payment, or DRG (diagnostic related group). Physicians would get a certain amount of money, revised every yr by the fed govt., for each condition, and that's it. Well you better believe this got doctors shipping patients out of hospitals damn quickly. DRGs were sucessful in intially cutting hospital costs and length of stay in hospitals. (on a side note, most studies indicate that quality of care was not lowered post DRGs). In addition to DRGs, insurance companies began doing utilization reviews (did this pt really need this test you ordered doc? if not, we're not gonna pay you as much) and requiring referrals from primary care physicians for tests ("gatekeeping"). HMOs, and variations thereof (based on flexibility in seeing specialists, premiums, etc) were tremendously successful at lowering costs. Initially. But administrative costs eventually soared and people caught on. Premiums (the amount you pay to your insurer every month in return for insurance) have now begun to skyrocket, meaning managed care is no longer successful at maintaining costs. This is probably bc people are getting older and sicker, as well as many other contentious issues relating to drivers of high cost health care (pharma, mktg, excessive use, etc). We are now in the midst of the "managed care backlash" which began in the late 1990s. 40M+ ppl (the entire population of Spain) are uninsured in America, but most of them are employed, meaning their employers aren't offering health care. Those that are unemployed aren't poor enough to qualify for Medicaid. Some state laws require hospitals to care for patients regardless of insurance status. ALL hospitals must provide emergent care to patients regardless of hospital status. Almost every study indicates the uninsured are sicker.
So that skims insurance.. I think they might ask you about malpractice. Directly, malpractice doesn't contribute significantly to health care costs, but it might indirectly. The problem is that there is a significant lag between when a doctor's malpractice premiums increase and when he/she can pass that cost on to patients, bc health insurers won't immediately cover increased costs. So this basic supply-demand problem leads to a shortage in certain specialties (OB and neuro i think). Malpractice is a cyclic problem, it comes and goes as a political issue every 10 yrs or so. The bigger problem is the affect it is having on doctor-pt relationships. Most hospitals cover malpractice insurance for their doctors, i think.
Finally, they might ask you about pharma. This is a loaded topic, you can look into it on your own. Basically, they spend as much or more on marketing as R&D. One can argue they need to, otherwise no one would no abt these drugs, which begs the question of whether the FDA should be informing physicians about drugs instead of pharma doing it and increasing the cost to pts. Pharma also does a lot of dirty things with patent extensions, which you can look into. Medicare didn't cover prescription drugs, which is why Bush signed into law the prescription drug modernization act. it has its +'s and -'s, although most academics think more -'s. It encourages overuse and has a big gap in coverage after a certain amount of money is spent on drugs. Also, it's confusing as hell for old folk.
So insurance, malpractice, and pharma... thats pretty much all they can ask you on the health care system and expect you to know. Other stuff you obviously have to formulate your own opinion (Terry Shavio sp?, etc). PM me if you have questions. Hope this helps :)


After taking two semester-long Health Policy courses (gettin an MPH here), I would say that was a great summary! :thumbup:
 
domukin said:
Read 'Heathcare meltdown'

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...pd_sxp_f/002-6203705-5053666?v=glance&s=books

It'll give you a frame work about some current medical issues. You can then research more on your own.

Another book I like is 'Complications', it doesn't discuess large issues regarding the healthcare system a whole, but an interesting look into day to day doctoring.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...002-6203705-5053666?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
I second these two, every aspiring healthcare professional should be required to read these two books, they're just outstanding!
On another note, Stiff is great as well.
 
I second domukin ... critical condition is another, by bartlett and steele, unimpeachable journalists the two of them.

Also subscribe to the New Yorker (or find it in the library) -- they have pretty good health coverage on a regular basis (that's where atul gawande got his start.)

also the NYT ... all online, they have a health section, and if your brain feels fried you can try the crossword puzzle ;)

Read ... you've got some time before interviews, and it's much more fun than they tell you in school! :p

PS! If you're an infection disease buff, you *must* read must must must Laurie Garrett's "The Coming Plague." :D
 
When faced with an enormous task like learning all about health care, right now, I like to break it down into some main questions:
1) How is healthcare delivered? How does medical care get from doctors to patients? This could include learning about HMOs, PPOs, Medicaid, Medicare, etc.
2) What are the advantages and disadvantages of the systems that are in place? What are some issues that have been in the news regarding this?
3) Are there any solutions to healthcare problems (whether or not you agree with them) being offered? What are they? Who is offering them?
and the fun part ...
4) What do YOU think is going on, and how would YOU fix it?
 
I think these books (Complications, etc) are great, but they're not going to help you grasp the evolution of the problems. A lot of them, like Broken Trust, outline the problems and possibilities for reform, but I think your best bet is to first figure out the historical reasons for the current problems. Then, reading the NYT and New Yorker, etc., will be more useful.
 
It's a confusing topic. Even for those in the "biz". In an effort to educate myself a bit, I started reading. I'm 3/4 through "Healtcare Meltdown" and am a bit disappointed with it. I think it's important to read from a multitude of sources, as data/numbers can so easily be manipulated depending on the interest group, or source.

The bottom line is to be familiar with the system as a whole, and to be able to discuss some of the problems.
 
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CQ researcher was a great resource for a lot of healthcare current event information.
 
Wow how do these posts get revived with the Search Function currently disabled and coupled with the fast-pace of the pre-allo forum?

Hahah anyways, does CQ researcher require a school account?

I also checked out publicagenda -- that was a really good site. Objective standpoint and a wide variety of views.
 
I had this page bookmarked : P

and yes, a school account would do just fine.
 
OK...this is probably a stupid question,
but why can't we(the government) force corporations to provide ALL employees with health coverage...including fast food workers...high turnover...whatever, whoever. Is this impossible?
 
redclover said:
OK...this is probably a stupid question,
but why can't we(the government) force corporations to provide ALL employees with health coverage...including fast food workers...high turnover...whatever, whoever. Is this impossible?
Healthcare is extremely expensive in the US, the premiums are higher than many other developed nations, including Western Europe. Pharmaceutical corporations and technological progress and the administrative costs of HMOs raising costs as well as many other costs force the prices up into the stratosphere. As such, most corporations are fighting against this, also the cost can be prohibitive for smaller companies, where millions of Americans work. It would send these companies spiraling into the red.
The best choice, if America wants healthcare, is for a Universal Coverage Plan. Not socialization, which hasn't worked in all instances, but a plan which by definition covers all Americans through taxes (premiums) and thus can act as an enormous bargaining company with those companies who manufacture drugs, MRIs, and anything else (like Medicare and then VA do). All physicians would be included and they would be reimbursed for all work they performed. This would bring the costs down and provide more care to more people. Also, the administrative overhead would plummet and former HMOs could become billing agencies for the plan (Medicare's overhead is very low). Wealthier citizens could afford additional service plans on top of the standard plan.
I think this shows the most promise. Although not perfect, I like the sound of it and have heard arguments from many directions. A trick would be to prevent many people from defrauding the agency, as many do to Medicare/-cal/-caid.
 
has anyone read Market-Driven Healthcare? I'd like to pick up a copy, it looks enticing
 
Shredder said:
has anyone read Market-Driven Healthcare? I'd like to pick up a copy, it looks enticing


I thought it was not that great. You can briskly skim through the initial chapters due to their lack of substance and infusion of common knowledge. The book is not heinous to read, but could be considerably condensed to a quaint pamphlet. It is too "dumbed down" for my taste in literature, but this is coming from someone who vehemently enjoys Kant. Best advice: pick up a copy at your school library and casually flip through it for a couple of hours. Additionally, you can read healthcare journals which have much more substance to them.
Journal of quality in clinical practice
The American journal of managed care.
The Internet journal of healthcare administration
et cetera
 
subtle1epiphany said:
a plan which by definition covers all Americans through taxes (premiums) and thus can act as an enormous bargaining company with those companies who manufacture drugs, MRIs, and anything else (like Medicare and then VA do). All physicians would be included and they would be reimbursed for all work they performed.

C'mon, you put the two sentences right next to each other and you can't see the connection? :)

What stops the government from doing the same thing they would do to companies and setting physician salaries to artifically low values? (hint: Nothing. See the French surgeons going on strike after the government opted not to give them a raise for FIFTEEN YEARS).

The real solution to all this stuff is something nobody likes to mention: incentive. There should be an incentive for a patient to get a $2000 surgery with a 95% chance of survival over a $100000 surgery with a 97% chance of survival, and right now there isn't one. If you want to opt for the ultra-expensive one, fine, but a system where there's absolutely no cost for or limit to doing so is not realistic.
 
What is the difference between VA Hospitals and other hospitals? I've always wondered about this.
Thanks.
 
dilated said:
There should be an incentive for a patient to get a $2000 surgery with a 95% chance of survival over a $100000 surgery with a 97% chance of survival, and right now there isn't one.

What the hell are you talking about? Insurers deny coverage for everything all the time, from UA's to quintuple bypasses with a back flip and chocolate syrup on top. Just try performing a few $100,000 operations in a private hospital without demonstrated coverage or ability to obtain reimbursment from the patient. See what happens. The heart warming tales of children each getting 17 free operations to cure their congenital crotch-scratching are the exception, not the rule.

Believe it or not, most doctors nowadays are pretty sensitive to the patient's ability to pay, and all hospitals and insurance companies have spent years and countless man-hours delineating the cost effectiveness of every procedure know to man.

Sure, hospitals eat a lot of costs caring for people who can't afford to pay, but if there is a penny to be pinched then you can bet your ass that some beancounter is going to be staring over your shoulder.
 
VAs are Veteran's Association hospitals - if anyone you know was in the military, take 'em here instead of the others. Apart from that, I don't know what else makes them different.
 
Megboo said:
I know people are going to get PO'd for this reply, but not everyone in America thinks healthcare is a right. A lot think it is a privelage, and that people themselves should be responsible for their own well-being.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, or that I agree or disagree, but I'm just throwing it out there.

Actually, the majority of people do think it's a right, they just don't want to pay for it. Theres a disconnect there.
 
nvshelat said:
Actually, the majority of people do think it's a right, they just don't want to pay for it. Theres a disconnect there.
its not in here

constitution-4.jpg
 
Shredder said:
its not in here

constitution-4.jpg

Neither was the national welfare system

nor

Roe v. Wade
 
medhacker said:
Neither was the national welfare system

nor

Roe v. Wade
life liberty and property, nothing else
 
It's a right in Canada. :D
 
Shredder said:
life liberty and property, nothing else



We the people of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare...


Ammendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people



Before the enactment of the U.S. constitutions humanity already existed and had inherent universal human rights:



UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS
Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.



MH
 
PerryCox, i printed out your long post and am carrying with me whever i interview for a brush up on the available systems. Thank you for that great summary.

Medical care is indeed a right. but doesn't it just mean that people cannot be denied of health care rather than fed gov't providing it?
 
Thanks for suggesting that book. My buddy has told me about it and I think it is a very important topic for all those interested in the future of medicine.

domukin said:
Read 'Heathcare meltdown'

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...pd_sxp_f/002-6203705-5053666?v=glance&s=books

It'll give you a frame work about some current medical issues. You can then research more on your own.

Another book I like is 'Complications', it doesn't discuess large issues regarding the healthcare system a whole, but an interesting look into day to day doctoring.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...002-6203705-5053666?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
 
ttt very helpful
 
medhacker said:
We the people of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare...


Ammendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people



Before the enactment of the U.S. constitutions humanity already existed and had inherent universal human rights:



UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS
Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.



MH


Pwned again.
 
prana_md said:
I second domukin ... critical condition is another, by bartlett and steele, unimpeachable journalists the two of them.

Also subscribe to the New Yorker (or find it in the library) -- they have pretty good health coverage on a regular basis (that's where atul gawande got his start.)

also the NYT ... all online, they have a health section, and if your brain feels fried you can try the crossword puzzle ;)

Read ... you've got some time before interviews, and it's much more fun than they tell you in school! :p

PS! If you're an infection disease buff, you *must* read must must must Laurie Garrett's "The Coming Plague."[/COLOR] :D



I agree! Great book! :thumbup:
 
koalabear said:
I know you'll probably think I'm dense, but I don't know a single thing about our healthcare system or how to improve it or what's wrong with it. The only thing I know is a vague difference between Medicare and Medicaid and that insurance is really high but that's it. I know it's a big interview topic and I think there may be a thread about this already but I couldn't find it. Could someone give me a Healthcare in America 101 lesson please. Thanks!

Take a Health Information Management Course. It's worth about 3 credit hours and it covers everything from hospital administrations to the hospiatl CEO and financing, to Private Practice vs Clinic based care to the difference between MD and DO. This is a very interesting class and it is an easy "A".
 
medhacker said:
We the people of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare...

On what basis do we suppose that "the general Welfare" includes health care?

Ammendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people
True enough. But that doesn't mean that, since I proclaim a "right to eat chicken on Tuesdays", I am therefore entitled to free government chicken subsidy.

Before the enactment of the U.S. constitutions humanity already existed and had inherent universal human rights:
Indeed. This idea of preexisting rights, apart from any government, is a basis for our Constitution. Under this legal theory, we cannot invent or even define rights; we can only name the rights that already exist. If this is your point, then I tend to agree, but I don't see how it strengthens your argument very much.

UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS
Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Not sure what bearing a UN document has on a discussion of US politics.
 
sibling said:
On what basis do we suppose that "the general Welfare" includes health care?

On the basis of its basic definition.

wel·fare ( P ) Pronunciation Key (wlfâr)
n.

Health, happiness, and good fortune; well-being
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

True enough. But that doesn't mean that, since I proclaim a "right to eat chicken on Tuesdays", I am therefore entitled to free government chicken subsidy.

Most sensible people would agree that the right to eat chicken on tuesdays is not a retained right by the people included in the concept of welfare. Therefore your comment does not apply.

Indeed. This idea of preexisting rights, apart from any government, is a basis for our Constitution. Under this legal theory, we cannot invent or even define rights; we can only name the rights that already exist. If this is your point, then I tend to agree, but I don't see how it strengthens your argument very much.

It strengthens it perfectly because a constitution can not deny the people the rights which universally belong to them.

Not sure what bearing a UN document has on a discussion of US politics.

What is said in the document is not property of the UN. What is said in the document is a declaration of human universal rights. As such they apply to U.S. politics, or anywhere politics. The universal rights of women/men are not precluded by national politics or geographical boundaries.


.
 
clc8503 said:
Take a Health Information Management Course. It's worth about 3 credit hours and it covers everything from hospital administrations to the hospiatl CEO and financing, to Private Practice vs Clinic based care to the difference between MD and DO. This is a very interesting class and it is an easy "A".
i think that should maybe become a prerec for premeds. unfortunately my school doesnt presently offer such a course so ive had to learn it on my own. God knows about my peers who might know nothing about the healthcare system upon entering med school. actually i guess its not a big deal, med schools probably address it anyway
 
medhacker said:
What is said in the document is not property of the UN. What is said in the document is a declaration of human universal rights. As such they apply to U.S. politics, or anywhere politics. The universal rights of women/men are not precluded by national politics or geographical boundaries.
.

Actually, they don't apply to anyone or anything. The UN can declare a universal right to medical care, but the claim is as baseless as any other feel-good claims made by international organizations. I agree that society ought to provide medical care to all of its citizens, especially a nation as rich as America, but let's not pretend that a UN proclamation is the basis of undeniable positive rights.
 
SanDiegoSOD said:
Actually, they don't apply to anyone or anything. The UN can declare a universal right to medical care, but the claim is as baseless as any other feel-good claims made by international organizations. I agree that society ought to provide medical care to all of its citizens, especially a nation as rich as America, but let's not pretend that a UN proclamation is the basis of undeniable positive rights.


You are missing the point about the nature of an universal human right. It is not dependent on the speaker who declares it. An universal human right "is" (thus exists) not because it is declared by the UN or the international girl scouts, for that matter. It is universal because it is self-evident and self-existing. The fact that the UN declares them adds nors robs nothing to its inherent nature.

Therefore, the basis of undeniable positive rights is not and has never been the proclamation of any given organization. The fact that such an organization declares an universal right does not give it dominion over that right nor does it establish the basis of it.
 
redclover said:
OK...this is probably a stupid question,
but why can't we(the government) force corporations to provide ALL employees with health coverage...including fast food workers...high turnover...whatever, whoever. Is this impossible?

Well, screw that. Let's make corporations pay for my cable TV and budweiser too. Actually, I'd like a new car. Let's make corporations pay for that too.

The fact of the matter is that there is not an unlimited pie. Everyone gets a finite amount of pie determined by the market, and that's it. It really bothers me when these "moral crusaders" lobby for socialization of government based on their "principles". The only principle our government should be based upon is pragmatism. Our government policy should reflect real cost and benefit analysis. The only way to do this is to ensure that our economy is operating on free market principles and sound ECONOMIC analysis of our situation. This applies to healthcare too.

Let me give you a loosely related example:

A reader recently sent me an e-mail about a woman he had met and fallen for. Apparently the attraction was mutual -- until one fateful day the subject of the environment came up.

She was absolutely opposed to any drilling for oil in Alaska, on grounds of what harm she said it would do to the environment.
He argued that, since oil was going to be drilled for somewhere in the world anyway, was it not better to drill where there were environmental laws to provide at least some kinds of safeguards, rather than in countries where there were none?
That was the end of a beautiful relationship.

Environmentalist true believers don't think in terms of trade-offs and cost-benefit analysis. There are things that are sacred to them. Trying to get them to compromise on those things would be like trying to convince a Moslem to eat pork, if it was only twice a week.

Compromise and tolerance are not the hallmarks of true believers. What they believe in goes to the heart of what they are. As far as true believers are concerned, you are either one of Us or one of Them.
 
By the way, Che was a huge loser. Don't use him as your avatar.
 
chef_NU said:
By the way, Che was a huge loser. Don't use him as your avatar.


Sure dad!

Only 'cause you say so...I am gonna change it right now :laugh:
 
medhacker said:
You are missing the point about the nature of an universal human right. It is not dependent on the speaker who declares it. An universal human right "is" (thus exists) not because it is declared by the UN or the international girl scouts, for that matter. It is universal because it is self-evident and self-existing. The fact that the UN declares them adds nors robs nothing to its inherent nature.

Therefore, the basis of undeniable positive rights is not and has never been the proclamation of any given organization. The fact that such an organization declares an universal right does not give it dominion over that right nor does it establish the basis of it.
Including that line within the context of US Constitution references was a little deceptive.

A universal, sometimes unspoken, inalienable right is a concept I agree with. The problem is often getting people to agree on what this encompasses. After all, we do have a universal right to disagree, correct? I have a right to disagree with what you think is a right. I have a right to vote in a manner which may go against what you believe. You have a right to do likewise.

See what the problem is with your line of reasoning?

Do you think the democrat process in a universal right? Do you think that all humans have a right to vote for representation? Do you think others, possibly other countries, have a right or obligation to help ensure these rights are protected?

If the answer is yes, would that mean you support nations getting involved in reforming other nations governments?

Personally I feel we have to take the concept of personal rights in the context of national sovereignty. We vote within a democratic system, expressing and securing our rights. To say that the UN has veto power over what we decide our laws to be defeats the whole notion of rights. They have no influence over me and should have no influence over how we govern ourselves. It mystifies me why some would like to give that much power over to such a corrupt and largely useless organization.
 
chef_NU said:
Well, screw that. Let's make corporations pay for my cable TV and budweiser too. Actually, I'd like a new car. Let's make corporations pay for that too.

Do you even know why we have employer-based health insurance at all?

chef_NU said:
The fact of the matter is that there is not an unlimited pie. Everyone gets a finite amount of pie determined by the market, and that's it. It really bothers me when these "moral crusaders" lobby for socialization of government based on their "principles". The only principle our government should be based upon is pragmatism. Our government policy should reflect real cost and benefit analysis. The only way to do this is to ensure that our economy is operating on free market principles and sound ECONOMIC analysis of our situation. This applies to healthcare too.

Nice rant, please drop by again in 5-10 years when you have a clue.
 
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