Weed out schools

the best question would be...are there such schools and if so which are they?...........a weed out school (in my opinion) would be one that makes things really hard on their students and many of them weed out or in other words don't finish. I don't think they are around any more...this was more of a thing for schools back in the 70s(from what I've heard)...especially Law schools.

peacebro said:

I'm in the process of applying. My boss advised me to stay away from the weed out schools. What is a weed out school?

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I don't think I have witnessed anyone getting "weeded out." People seem to leave due to family reasons or change in career choice.

If you get into OD school or any professional school, the administration and faculty usually do not try to flunk you out. In fact they bend over backwards to get you through because it hurts the school more to flunk a student out than have you finish. Besides, if the national accreditation council notices a school that’s flunking out students every year, the counsel will investigate the school to see why and will strip their accreditation if irregularities are found.

peacebro said:

I'm in the process of applying. My boss advised me to stay away from the weed out schools. What is a weed out school?

Click to expand...

A weed out school is one that accepts alot of students and then fails them out . SOUTHERN AND NOVA WERE SUCH SCHOOLS ABOUT 7 YEARS AGO DO NOT KNOW ABOUT NOW BUT EASY ENOUGH TO FIND OUT

peacebro said:

I'm in the process of applying. My boss advised me to stay away from the weed out schools. What is a weed out school?

Click to expand...

Homes,

let's get one thing straight - the weed out schools are still out there. they just aren't as aggressive as in the past. applications for od schools were on the decline a few yrs ago, not sure about the current numbers. back to the question - weed out schools are there and some ppl get removed for valid reasons and some get removed for non-valid reasons (someone on the admin or faculty has it out for them). it's really sad but i've seen over a dozen cases of this happening.

i have a pretty good idea which are the weed out schools, but you'll have to do your own research on this one.

some places just make students repeat a year....not so bad, except for the fact that you'll feel like a piece of crap, may go through sub-clinical depression and lose about 75-100k in lost income....other than that it ain't so bad!

grades: don't think that if you have good grades you can't be eliminated! I've seen people with b+ to a- averages, with passing grades in all courses get removed from programs - for reasons that i didn't think were valid.

i want to share a little with all you potential ods. there was a student name polly who was an od student. she was held back two years (so he did approx. 6 years of od school) and then her school removed her from her program a few months prior to her graduation. if you did a cold case on her, you'd realise that she was removed for invalid reasons. this is not a fictional story, this is a true story. i knew 'polly' and all i can say is that she is brighter and smarter than 75% of the people on this board. 'polly' pulled it together and went on to become a dentist - but she wasted plenty of time dealing with a couple of a-hole faculty members.

for those brave enough, go and ask a veterned dean in their school if they knew of a case where a student was abused or treated unfairly by the faculty / administration? if they say 'no' ask them if they would swear to this in court? i rest my case.

life's like a lottery system
sometimes you win
but you usually lose

all the best!@

ps. peacebro...better lisiten to your boss!

ucbsowarrior said:

I've seen people with b+ to a- averages, with passing grades in all courses get removed from programs - for reasons that i didn't think were valid.

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What were those reasons?

peacebro said:

Thank you for the heads up. My boss has told me which schools he thinks weed out. No need to list them. I wanted to verify with other people in optometry. Looking at the incoming class number and the graduating number of the same class should speak for itself. One school a few years ago accepted 168 entering students and graduated 130 in 4 years later. This should say something about this school. Appreciate eveyone's view on the subject.

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Or should it say something about those 38 students?

I'm curious to know these schools. Or if it is just a big fat piece of expired spam? Someone list them! Or PM me.

list them or Pm me too. suprises me that SCO is/was considered a weed out school....hmm...

keep in mind that accepted and matriculated are two different things...you should be looking at the matriculated/graduation rate!

weed out schools still exist???? darn it, i thought they were of the bygone age, anyone know where to gather info on this? or you can just pm me

thxs

This is interesting and somewhat puzzling. When I left education, (about 11 years now) COE kept a figure on the #’s that were dismissed. SCO was a school that had a higher dismissal rate but I believe it was the result of their admissions policy. If a student did not get accepted on the first try, the same applicant was given preference if he/she applied the following year up to 3 applications. (Quality of students??) Having sat on committees that reviewed students for dismissal, most dismissals were because of because of unprofessional conduct. This ranged from a student questioning and being disrespectable to a staff doctor in front of patients, to a student asking every female patient that came into the clinic out, and students cheating on examinations. When a student has poor grades, they were almost always given the option of dropping back a year. However, the frequency of this occurring was about 1 student in 3-4 classes. The most common reason why a student dropped back a year was because of the student needing a leave of absent for family or personal reasons, not academics. In all cases, they were all given a second chance to “straighten up”.

I do know that the lower applicant pools caused a problem and dilemma for many schools because in order to fill their classes they were faced with accepting students that probably should not have been accepted in the first place. As for UCBSO’s friend Polly, having her repeat 2 years is very unusual and, to me, shows they must have felt she had potential. In almost all cases if a student does not improve sufficiently after dropping back one year they were advised to consider doing something else. Only in very special circumstances will a student be allowed to drop back twice. Dismissing a student 6 months before graduation is almost unheard of, and if there was not a legitimate reason why she was dismissed she should have grounds for a lawsuit with punitive damages. But, keep in mind that the schools know that they must have a very good reason and proof to justify a dismissal. This is why I have a little trouble being totally convinced that schools will actively try to flunk out their students. I only know of 2 instances where a 4th year student was dismissed with out given a chance at redemption. A Male student that asked all his female patients to allow him to measure their breast nipples in order to get the correct diameter for their contact lens, and a student that threatened the life of a staff doc.

gsinccom said:

list them or Pm me too. suprises me that SCO is/was considered a weed out school....hmm...

keep in mind that accepted and matriculated are two different things...you should be looking at the matriculated/graduation rate!

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I wouldn't consider SCO a "weed out" school at all. It's hard...but it's supposed to be!
Out of my class ('08) we lost one person last year from 125 students, and that was because of grades.

rpie said:

A Male student that asked all his female patients to allow him to measure their breast nipples in order to get the correct diameter for their contact lens

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You're kidding right?

What is this world coming to

rpie said:

A Male student that asked all his female patients to allow him to measure their breast nipples in order to get the correct diameter for their contact lens, and a student that threatened the life of a staff doc.

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How did they make it to 4th year??!!??

… Yep Matt, unfortunately this did happened at SCCO in the early 80’s when I was a 1st year. People that heard about including myself, it though it was a joke or rumor. It wasn’t until I started teaching that I found out it was for real. I really don’t know what happened because, as you all know how it is when you’re a 1st year all you care about is making sure your going to pass the next quiz. Hearing a story about some horny 4th year that got his ass kicked out for checking out his patient’s boobs may be interesting and some ways funny but not as important keeping your mind on studying for an optics or visual science test. How did they get to the 4th year? Well, as a former educator, there is “Doctor” complex that forms in some people when they reach the 4th year and escalates as they get close to graduation. I have experience some of the most nicest and humble students become arrogant and pompous by their last rotation. Just make sure the "complex" does not get to all you students because that's the quickest way to get on the a black list of all the clinical instructors! Staff Docs do talk about their good and bad students...


OPII I like your picture …..lol

My face really looked like that after the "nipple story"

rpie said:

… Yep Matt, unfortunately this did happened at SCCO in the early 80’s when I was a 1st year. People that heard about including myself, it though it was a joke or rumor. It wasn’t until I started teaching that I found out it was for real.

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Wow. Sounds so much like an "urban legend". I couldn't see it happening with more than one patient. How many women would buy into the need to do this for a contact lens fitting, although, contact lenses were not as well known in the early 80s.

It does bring up some real interesting anthropological questions about the "power" of the doctor though.

xmattODx said:

You're kidding right?

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wow..so like what did they do with the data. Just curious..i mean maybe they should run some stats on the corralation between nipple size and contact diameter..but of coarse you shouldn't exclude men from the study. I'm just asking..that's. all. Could you imagine that on the cover of Review of Optometry...too funny (j/k)

This story was posted in the D.O. Forum:

OCTOBER 5--An Oregon woman claims that her former doctor prescribed sex with him as a treatment for lower back pain, according to a new lawsuit. In a Circuit Court complaint, an excerpt of which you'll find below, Susan Beach alleges that Randall Smith, an osteopathic physician, told her that there was "a medical need to manipulate a nerve in her vagina to help alleviate her lower back pain." These treatments began in June 2003 and ended seven months later after Beach mentioned the unorthodox care to her dentist, who was alarmed by Smith's behavior. Beach is seeking $4 million in damages from Smith and the medical clinic where he worked. Smith, who has claimed the patient sex was consensual, was stripped of his medical license in April for submitting phony reimbursement claims to the Oregon Health Plan. That criminal scheme cost Smith, pictured in the above mug shot, 60 days in jail.

rpie said:

… Yep Matt, unfortunately this did happened at SCCO in the early 80’s when I was a 1st year. People that heard about including myself, it though it was a joke or rumor. It wasn’t until I started teaching that I found out it was for real. I really don’t know what happened because, as you all know how it is when you’re a 1st year all you care about is making sure your going to pass the next quiz. Hearing a story about some horny 4th year that got his ass kicked out for checking out his patient’s boobs may be interesting and some ways funny but not as important keeping your mind on studying for an optics or visual science test. How did they get to the 4th year? Well, as a former educator, there is “Doctor” complex that forms in some people when they reach the 4th year and escalates as they get close to graduation. I have experience some of the most nicest and humble students become arrogant and pompous by their last rotation. Just make sure the "complex" does not get to all you students because that's the quickest way to get on the a black list of all the clinical instructors! Staff Docs do talk about their good and bad students...


OPII I like your picture …..lol

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maybe this student was confused when the prof was teaching the keratoconus section. he must of confused 'nipple' cone for keratoconus for breast nipples It's really an honest mistake. Anyone could've confused the two!

OR maybe he was looking for the 'Munson' sign. Buldges on downgaze

my final tought for the night is....what k readings did he get? 36C?

All honesty aside, these sound like crazy stories, but there are many cases where students didn't deserve to be removed from the program. They didn't committ any serious wrong doings. Someone just had it in for them.

As to a student threatening a staff docs life - i think the likelihood of that happening is similar to the probability of a staff doc threatening a student's life. i have heard of cases where a student's career was almost wrecked because some staff doc wanted to fail them for reasons that are not related to clinical or behaviour issues. this student did threaten a staff doc (i think the student should've sought counsel instead of making comments that could further jepardise their career). some staff docs make up stories to cover up their own tracks (very evil)

more often than not you'll see certain staff docs either bullying students and using a blantant abuse of power. i've seen many students suffer at the abuse of some staff docs. i've even seen one case of physical abuse on one student. i asked the student why they didn't bring the issue up with their school or the athorities as there were witnesses. the student told me that they didn't want to cause 'trouble' and just wanted to graduate.

i've even seen cases where there are two staff docs overlook a clinic - staff doc A tries to convince staff doc B to fail a student when there is no valid reason. in such situations i've witness staff doc B stand up for the student, and in other instances i've seen staff doc B go along with staff doc A. it's all quite sad and disgusting.

as one can see there is often a power disparity in student and staff doctor relationships. when there is abuse, i'm sure that only a very low percentage of such cases get reported. this would be quite similar to child abuse cases, very few of those cases get reported....it's all quite sad, but this is a dark side that some students may need to face.

The flip side is when a student that is poor in many aspects - academic - clinical - social - but has a parent, relative or knows someone in the administration that has some pull at the school....and they make it through the program due to their connections. is this story a fabrication of my imagination? nope, i've seen it happen on more than three occassions and i'm sure it happens all the time.

my post seems quite negative, but i just want to mention that the majority of staff docs and faculty that me and my friends have met have been great people, mentors and optometrists....unfortunately there's always a couple of bad apples out there (that goes for docs and students)

later!

ucbsowarrior said:

more often than not you'll see certain staff docs either bullying students and using a blantant abuse of power. i've seen many students suffer at the abuse of some staff docs. i've even seen cases of physical abuse on one student. i asked the student why they didn't bring the issue up with their school or the athorities as there were witnesses. the student told me that they didn't want to cause 'trouble' and just wanted to graduate.

Click to expand...

I don't know if I should feel sympathetic or angry at this student. If it's true and he/she didn't report, he is just as guilty for not standing up to it. How can we have an someone who would take abuse and be part of this profession? Those witnesses were also responsible. We can't put the future of optometry in these people's hands. So when LUX starts assimilating every thing in town, his response would be "I didn't want to cause trouble, just wanted to retire." We need more Rosa Parks.

UCBSO, Yes I agree there are cases where a student is passed and given many liberties because they have political pull in the administration. But I think you will find this situation in all schools. As far as if you come across a staff doc. that is “out to get you” the clinical director and/or the director of out reach clinics are there for you to talk to. Over all I am not totally convinced that there are “ flunk out schools”. The 2 cases I mentioned are the only ones that I was aware of who was dismissed for professional conduct and maybe 2 or 3 cases where a person was dismissed for academic reasons, but only after they were given a second chance. If you think about the total numbers dismissed, it's still small compared to those that finish.

ucbsowarrior said:

As to a student threatening a staff docs life - i think the likelihood of that happening is similar to the probability of a staff doc threatening a student's life. i have heard of cases where a student's career was almost wrecked because some staff doc wanted to fail them for reasons that are not related to clinical or behaviour issues. this student did threaten a staff doc (i think the student should've sought counsel instead of making comments that could further jepardise their career). some staff docs make up stories to cover up their own tracks (very evil)

more often than not you'll see certain staff docs either bullying students and using a blantant abuse of power. i've seen many students suffer at the abuse of some staff docs. i've even seen one case of physical abuse on one student. i asked the student why they didn't bring the issue up with their school or the athorities as there were witnesses. the student told me that they didn't want to cause 'trouble' and just wanted to graduate.

Click to expand...

You must be talking about my school IAUPR. I have seen much abuse in this school. It nauseates me to see the accreditation committee covering up for political reasons. It is down right neglegence to allow this to happen.

please read all the following quotes to get a better understanding ....

ucbsowarrior said:

Homes,

let's get one thing straight - the weed out schools are still out there. they just aren't as aggressive as in the past. applications for od schools were on the decline a few yrs ago, not sure about the current numbers. back to the question - weed out schools are there and some ppl get removed for valid reasons and some get removed for non-valid reasons (someone on the admin or faculty has it out for them). it's really sad but i've seen over a dozen cases of this happening.

i have a pretty good idea which are the weed out schools, but you'll have to do your own research on this one.

some places just make students repeat a year....not so bad, except for the fact that you'll feel like a piece of crap, may go through sub-clinical depression and lose about 75-100k in lost income....other than that it ain't so bad!

grades: don't think that if you have good grades you can't be eliminated! I've seen people with b+ to a- averages, with passing grades in all courses get removed from programs - for reasons that i didn't think were valid.

i want to share a little with all you potential ods. there was a student name polly who was an od student. she was held back two years (so he did approx. 6 years of od school) and then her school removed her from her program a few months prior to her graduation. if you did a cold case on her, you'd realise that she was removed for invalid reasons. this is not a fictional story, this is a true story. i knew 'polly' and all i can say is that she is brighter and smarter than 75% of the people on this board. 'polly' pulled it together and went on to become a dentist - but she wasted plenty of time dealing with a couple of a-hole faculty members.

for those brave enough, go and ask a veterned dean in their school if they knew of a case where a student was abused or treated unfairly by the faculty / administration? if they say 'no' ask them if they would swear to this in court? i rest my case.

life's like a lottery system
sometimes you win
but you usually lose

all the best!@

ps. peacebro...better lisiten to your boss!

Click to expand...

rpie said:

Originally Posted by rpie
… Yep Matt, unfortunately this did happened at SCCO in the early 80’s when I was a 1st year. People that heard about including myself, it though it was a joke or rumor. It wasn’t until I started teaching that I found out it was for real. I really don’t know what happened because, as you all know how it is when you’re a 1st year all you care about is making sure your going to pass the next quiz. Hearing a story about some horny 4th year that got his ass kicked out for checking out his patient’s boobs may be interesting and some ways funny but not as important keeping your mind on studying for an optics or visual science test. How did they get to the 4th year? Well, as a former educator, there is “Doctor” complex that forms in some people when they reach the 4th year and escalates as they get close to graduation. I have experience some of the most nicest and humble students become arrogant and pompous by their last rotation. Just make sure the "complex" does not get to all you students because that's the quickest way to get on the a black list of all the clinical instructors! Staff Docs do talk about their good and bad students...


OPII I like your picture …..lol

Click to expand...

ucbsowarrior said:

maybe this student was confused when the prof was teaching the keratoconus section. he must of confused 'nipple' cone for keratoconus for breast nipples It's really an honest mistake. Anyone could've confused the two!

OR maybe he was looking for the 'Munson' sign. Buldges on downgaze

my final tought for the night is....what k readings did he get? 36C?

All honesty aside, these sound like crazy stories, but there are many cases where students didn't deserve to be removed from the program. They didn't committ any serious wrong doings. Someone just had it in for them.

As to a student threatening a staff docs life - i think the likelihood of that happening is similar to the probability of a staff doc threatening a student's life. i have heard of cases where a student's career was almost wrecked because some staff doc wanted to fail them for reasons that are not related to clinical or behaviour issues. this student did threaten a staff doc (i think the student should've sought counsel instead of making comments that could further jepardise their career). some staff docs make up stories to cover up their own tracks (very evil)

more often than not you'll see certain staff docs either bullying students and using a blantant abuse of power. i've seen many students suffer at the abuse of some staff docs. i've even seen one case of physical abuse on one student. i asked the student why they didn't bring the issue up with their school or the athorities as there were witnesses. the student told me that they didn't want to cause 'trouble' and just wanted to graduate.

i've even seen cases where there are two staff docs overlook a clinic - staff doc A tries to convince staff doc B to fail a student when there is no valid reason. in such situations i've witness staff doc B stand up for the student, and in other instances i've seen staff doc B go along with staff doc A. it's all quite sad and disgusting.

as one can see there is often a power disparity in student and staff doctor relationships. when there is abuse, i'm sure that only a very low percentage of such cases get reported. this would be quite similar to child abuse cases, very few of those cases get reported....it's all quite sad, but this is a dark side that some students may need to face.

The flip side is when a student that is poor in many aspects - academic - clinical - social - but has a parent, relative or knows someone in the administration that has some pull at the school....and they make it through the program due to their connections. is this story a fabrication of my imagination? nope, i've seen it happen on more than three occassions and i'm sure it happens all the time.

my post seems quite negative, but i just want to mention that the majority of staff docs and faculty that me and my friends have met have been great people, mentors and optometrists....unfortunately there's always a couple of bad apples out there (that goes for docs and students)

later!

Click to expand...

I would like to ask RPIE and any other students or ods what are some possible reasons why someone would threaten the life of another person? or why a student would threaten the life of a staff doc???

the person who comes up with the top ten best reasons to threaten the life of a staff doc wins an award! (just joking). all jokes aside, what are some possible reasons???

people say or do crazy things when they are pushed too hard or crack. does that make it right? probably not, as healthcare professionals or potential / future healthcare professions we must always dig deeper! what is the etiology of the problem? some crazy student that just wants to randomly threaten the life of a staff doctor or a student who was pushed or abused in some way...that lead to the student saying some not-so-smart comments? you guys can use your own judgement on this one, but i don't think a student would work their butt off in undergrad, take the oat, go for an interview, do a few years of opto school and spend 100,000 just so they had the chance to threaten the life of a staff doc - cuz that is not logical or reasonable deduction of psychology. these students who say these unwise comments are 9 times out of 10 pushed or abused by someone who has power over them.

what is the definition of the threat? an expression of intent to injure or punish another. why would a student want to punish a staff doctor? what are some of the reasons?

Final question to all pre-opt students? would you threaten the life of a staff doc? under what circumstances would you? think long and hard.

like i've been saying all along. i'm not protecting those who are unwise and say stupid 'threats', but we must examine the etiology and event that let up to someone uttering a 'threat'. some student may deserve to be removed from programs, but some students do not deserved to be removed. from my observations and input from friends and other students i feel that most of these cases are not examined in a very logical manner.


what'd y'all think???

can't we all just get along!!!...by Rodney King

3eb4me said:

I don't know if I should feel sympathetic or angry at this student. If it's true and he/she didn't report, he is just as guilty for not standing up to it. How can we have an someone who would take abuse and be part of this profession? Those witnesses were also responsible. We can't put the future of optometry in these people's hands. So when LUX starts assimilating every thing in town, his response would be "I didn't want to cause trouble, just wanted to retire." We need more Rosa Parks.

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How can a student stand up to a clinician?
Remember the only reason Rosa Parks got out of jail was because of Martin Luthor King. If a student doesn't have backup looking at their case fairly they are s*#*#ed. You can say byebye to your $150,000 you've spent in school.

Ucbsowarrior
Couldn't the Dean do something to protect a student who is obviously getting picked on?

UCBSO, I can see your passion for the rights and fair treatment of students, and admire that. What I am doing is giving an insight from the administration side because there is always 2 sides, and both cannot disclose all the facts sounding dismissals because of legal implications. Bad staff docs are always a concern of schools, and admit that there will always be a “stinker” in the crowd but they usually will not last long because all students are asked to evaluate their attending staff docs. I agree that constant miss treatment can evoke a person to threaten the staff, but before that happens you should be talking to the clinical director, dean etc. What everyone need to realize is that dismissing a student is not easy even if there is just cause. There has to be a full investigation and agreement by the president, dean, clinic director and the investigation committee to dismiss a student. The one I know of I cannot go into details but can say that it had to do with a student and his relative. A disagreed with the staff’s recommendation to refer his relative for neurological evaluation caused the referral to be delayed and resulted with an unfortunate outcome. Ironically the student blamed the staff for not being forceful enough.


OPII, the clinical director, and the director of outreach clinics (or your schools equivalent) are there to discuss your concerns. If no help is found there the dean and president should be accessible. The mistreatment of students is always taken seriously.

rpie said:

OPII, the clinical director, and the director of outreach clinics (or your schools equivalent) are there to discuss your concerns. If no help is found there the dean and president should be accessible. The mistreatment of students is always taken seriously.

Click to expand...

Well you know me, Dr. Rpie, I tend to be a bit impressionable. Fortunatly we've got you around to keep us straight. In the meantime I better go for another beer before I get put in the hole for another week.

rpie said:

UCBSO, I can see your passion for the rights and fair treatment of students, and admire that. What I am doing is giving an insight from the administration side because there is always 2 sides, and both cannot disclose all the facts sounding dismissals because of legal implications. Bad staff docs are always a concern of schools, and admit that there will always be a “stinker” in the crowd but they usually will not last long because all students are asked to evaluate their attending staff docs. I agree that constant miss treatment can evoke a person to threaten the staff, but before that happens you should be talking to the clinical director, dean etc. What everyone need to realize is that dismissing a student is not easy even if there is just cause. There has to be a full investigation and agreement by the president, dean, clinic director and the investigation committee to dismiss a student. The one I know of I cannot go into details but can say that it had to do with a student and his relative. A disagreed with the staff’s recommendation to refer his relative for neurological evaluation caused the referral to be delayed and resulted with an unfortunate outcome. Ironically the student blamed the staff for not being forceful enough.


OPII, the clinical director, and the director of outreach clinics (or your schools equivalent) are there to discuss your concerns. If no help is found there the dean and president should be accessible. The mistreatment of students is always taken seriously.

Click to expand...

Let's just say this homes,

I've seen deans, directors, instructors and other staff members pick on one or two particular students. They pretty much all ganged up on these people. Once certain faculty members feel like they have imunity they will do as they like.

How come these bad ass faculty members aren't weeded out of the system or why doesn't the dean do something about it? A bad ass faculty member isn't going to mistreat every student, they may just mistreat one or two students. So they get 70 good reviews and two bad ones - no big deal to them. They just pound you harder if they ever find out about the bad review. The dean? Get real...some are great....some are just plain jokes. I've seen the abuse of students come from the top down. ie. it is initiated by a dean of a school. Are these make believe stories? only if you are friggen nieve.

Let me close by saying. If we were to put every dean of an od's school under oath and ask them if they ever saw another faculty member within their school abuse a student (with wrongful intent)? a visible percentage would have to say 'yes'. If asked if they had the ability to interve and stop it, but did nothing. Many of these deans under oath would say: 'i could've lessed the blows or stopped it to some degree, but didn't.'

The system is a joke and the best advice i give to all potential or current od students is just to kiss ass and play the 'game'.

ucbsowarrior