Experiences as or with URMs at your school

Some of the smartest people I know. Enough said.

At BU we have a very strong URM community. The SNMA has a strong voice in the school and also sponsors weekly social and charitable activities. Many of the students are academic leaders.

The community is large and supportive which I think is one of the keys to success. It is more difficult for any student if they feel isolated.

My school seems to have a good representation overall. But one thing i noticed that bothers me. There is not one black male in our entire class. And that does not represent the demographics of the area.

yposhelley said:

But one thing i noticed that bothers me. There is not one black male in our entire class. And that does not represent the demographics of the area.

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Wow, that is not at all true here. I am amazed.

This thread is a very good idea. So as a pre-emptive strike to save a thread that I think can be very beneficial, can everyone agree to never turn this into an AA thread or even mention it?(other than my post of course) Thanks in advance and keep the replies coming because I am curious.

I was shocked too at the lack of diversity in my school. Although, what can I say? The same thing happens everywhere.

I'm not sure this is entirely true. I know that diversity was really important to me when I was applying, and I found that there was a huge range. For example, Jefferson has 5% URMs. Not to offend anyone from jefferson, but I was shocked by this number (that's hispanics, blacks, native americans combined!). Mt. Sinai on the other hand has like 24% URMs. That said, most schools do hover around 12% or so which, considering the small medical school class size, means there's like ~15-20 URMs per class which does seem like an insanely small community. When I visited one school, they said that they had THREE hispanics in M1 class. I love the school but that just sucks. =P

FYI not all Hispanics are considered URM's. Only Mexicans and Puerto Ricans.

CANES2006 said:

FYI not all Hispanics are considered URM's. Only Mexicans and Puerto Ricans.

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Asians and East Indians, are they considered URMs?

Soleil9 said:

Asians and East Indians, are they considered URMs?

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Nope (I'm both). And understandably so, since we're not underrepresented in the medical field. Some particular ethnic groups/countries, but not on the whole.

One of the URM girls in my class is (in my opinion) one of the smartest of any student I know.

It looks like this thread is turning out pretty good. Just one question though...can you all actually say what school you go to instead of saying, "At my school", so we can get an idea of the atmosphere there? Thanks.

IMO, schools that are committed to enrolling URMs are schools that are more diverse in general. For example, such schools also tend to take more non-trads. Schools that tend to be very young also tend to have fewer URMs.

I don't know any numbers, but I think Iowa's med school is pretty diverse. More diverse than the population of the state, anyway.

CANES2006 said:

FYI not all Hispanics are considered URM's. Only Mexicans and Puerto Ricans.

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Actually, not true, they changed this a few years ago and the definition now includes all hispanics: http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/start.htm, which IMO makes a lot more sense. Also, good point Q - while I didn't think about non-racial diversity (i.e. non-trads) when I was applying, it really made a difference to me at second look.

Hopkins is *very* diverse. I have had the opportunity to interact with people from many different ethnicities and backgrounds. I think it's great!!!

geekOCD said:

Actually, not true, they changed this a few years ago and the definition now includes all hispanics: http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/start.htm, which IMO makes a lot more sense. Also, good point Q - while I didn't think about non-racial diversity (i.e. non-trads) when I was applying, it really made a difference to me at second look.

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Me too. If you mention the word "diversity" to people, right away they think of racial or ethnic diversity, but there are all kinds of other diversity factors too, such as age, religion, nationality, geography, socioeconomic background, and sexual orientation. A school that wants to have a diverse class will recruit URMs as well as other less-represented groups like non-trads that improve overall class diversity. Even though I'm not URM myself, I definitely noticed when there were not a lot of URMs at a school. This is because I was interested in the number of non-trads and the overall diversity in the class, which includes but is not limited to that school's ethnic/racial and age diversity.

I think we're a little off-topic here, because the OP was specifically asking about people's experiences as and with URMs. But I did think it was an interesting and relevant correlation, and worth bringing up, so I hope you will all forgive me for doing it.

I go to UPenn, and when I entered I was one of 14 URMs. It was a disappointing year, but recruitment efforts have increased and we are doing better.

Though I am impressed with my classmates and those on the faculty and administration (URM or otherwise) I have to say that I definitely have had enough negative experiences with my own people outside of the med school to make me wonder how we are viewed by others. If I am taken aback by their behavior, how does someone who doesn't know many URMs feel?

I think as a URM, you have to try a little harder and be better behaved, if not because of how others view you, because there are comparatively so much fewer role models to counteract the negativity.

Obra4 said:

The purpose of this thread is to openly discuss our experiences interacting with our classmates. I honestly hope that this will provide a forum such that we can see the same experience from all different perspectives.

What are your experiences w/ URM's?

What are your experiences as URM's?

Try to cover all bases, i.e. faculty, adminstration, and your class mates.

Well let's let it fly.

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yposhelley said:

My school seems to have a good representation overall. But one thing i noticed that bothers me. There is not one black male in our entire class. And that does not represent the demographics of the area.

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I agree with beary that Iowa's med school is more diverse than you might expect from the state. But, we definitely have more women URM than men URM. I can't say with authority that this happens at other schools as well, but my undergrad advisor was a social worker and medical sociologist. I remember that she made the point that minority families from lower income backgrounds were much more likely to send daughters to college and beyond than sons, partially due to the fact that males could make more money right out of HS. Of course, she was telling me this in the 90's, and she was basing this on her practice and research days which stretched back for decades, so I don't know how applicable this is to our current higher education culture.

As for the OP's question... I'm not going to stereotype and say that every URM was great or bad. Some were the top of the class and went into crazy competitive specialities. Some were the most humanistic students I know and volunteered everywhere under the sun. Some barely graduated or did drop out.

I tended to feel a little closer to minorities in my class just because they were more likely to be out-of-state and from areas of the country I could associate with better.

geekOCD said:

Actually, not true, they changed this a few years ago and the definition now includes all hispanics: http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/start.htm, which IMO makes a lot more sense. Also, good point Q - while I didn't think about non-racial diversity (i.e. non-trads) when I was applying, it really made a difference to me at second look.

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So, I guess I'm now a URM. Oh well, the definition changed after I was already in medical school. Still makes no difference. There are still few URM's at my school. A true shame since there are sooo many hispanics in the general population at Miami. Maybe FIU will be open to accepting more URM's than UMiami is.

Thanks guys. Keep the anwers coming. I am really interested in your responses. What a brilliant idea, OP!

CANES2006 said:

So, I guess I'm now a URM. Oh well, the definition changed after I was already in medical school. Still makes no difference. There are still few URM's at my school. A true shame since there are sooo many hispanics in the general population at Miami. Maybe FIU will be open to accepting more URM's than UMiami is.

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Yes but many of those Hispanics are Cubans, a group that is not underrepresented in Medicine historically. Perhaps this is why UMiami doesn't have many hispanics? I am Cuban and thus not URM, though I am not sure if schools accept the AMA definition of URM anyhow, I think they tend to just lump any non caucasion/indian/asian in as URM .

CANES2006 said:

FYI not all Hispanics are considered URM's. Only Mexicans and Puerto Ricans.

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Is that in general or just in terms of medical school admissions? TY.

Not terribly diverse at my school, but I don't think it's for lack of the school trying. If I were a URM, I wouldn't want to come to West TX. As for the URM's we have..... just like the rest. Some are great students, some not great and a few are a bit wierd..... fit in pretty well I'd say.

burberrybrit said:

Is that in general or just in terms of medical school admissions? TY.

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I believe that's in general too. I KNOW I wasn't considered a URM when I applied to college and medical school and I'm hispanic. But, maybe the definition has changed since then as another poster stated.

CANES2006 said:

FYI not all Hispanics are considered URM's. Only Mexicans and Puerto Ricans.

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Really? I didn't know that. Are you sure?

My buddy is of Peruvian descent, and he's benefited from some AA programs in the business world (even though he grew up in a well-off family. lol)

cfdavid said:

Really? I didn't know that. Are you sure?

My buddy is of Peruvian descent, and he's benefited from some AA programs in the business world (even though he grew up in a well-off family. lol)

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Don't know if in the business world this is true, but at least back in 2002, when I applied to medical school, only mainland puerto ricans and mexicans (among hispanics) were labeled as URM's and benefited somewhat. Apparently, in 2003 the definition of a URM changed, as another previous poster stated. I'm pretty sure I've never benefited from any AA programs and I am hispanic. Whatever, I got to where I am regardless.

Obra4 said:

Do you feel as though your experience would have been any different had you been labeled as a URM throughout your academic life?

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I was labeled anyway as a URM by many ignorant people who assumed that I was a URM because I was hispanic. They assumed that I got some sort of "special treatment" or did not earn my seat in medical school. Many times I had to work harder and prove myself alot more than some of my classmates to show that I deserved to be in medical school. Sometimes, even though you excel, you still can't win because you can't overcome the stereotype that people have of you based on your ethnicity. Sorry, but I'm pretty bitter about this topic. I'm sure that not every hispanic or URM has had/or will have as bad of an experience in medical school with some attendings, residents, and administrators as I have.

CANES2006 said:

I was labeled anyway as a URM by many ignorant people who assumed that I was a URM because I was hispanic. They assumed that I got some sort of "special treatment" or did not earn my seat in medical school. Many times I had to work harder and prove myself alot more than some of my classmates to show that I deserved to be in medical school. Sometimes, even though you excel, you still can't win because you can't overcome the stereotype that people have of you based on your ethnicity. Sorry, but I'm pretty bitter about this topic. I'm sure that not every hispanic or URM has had/or will have as bad of an experience in medical school with some attendings, residents, and administrators as I have.

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which is one of the many reasons why affirmative action is inhernetly wrong.

MarzMD said:

This thread is a very good idea. So as a pre-emptive strike to save a thread that I think can be very beneficial, can everyone agree to never turn this into an AA thread or even mention it?(other than my post of course) Thanks in advance and keep the replies coming because I am curious.

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I tried........

WhatUpDoc! said:

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doh! sorry. i should have read the whole thread.

Obra4 said:

Are you implicitly stating that URM's deserve that type of treatment?

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I don't think that's what he/she was saying at all... Rather, that because of affirmative action even the people who would have gotten in w/o that boost are often assumed to be less qualified....

Saluki said:

I don't think that's what he/she was saying at all... Rather, that because of affirmative action even the people who would have gotten in w/o that boost are often assumed to be less qualified....thus generating unfair stereotypes

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correct. For example, within the first month of school I overheard someone say, "...well, you know- that person is only hear riding AA". Which was totally untrue and kind of upset me.

Saluki said:

I don't think that's what he/she was saying at all... Rather, that because of affirmative action even the people who would have gotten in w/o that boost are often assumed to be less qualified....

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I think AA just becomes an excuse for bigoted people to feel justified in their opinions. Judging from US history, many people don't need AA or any other program to assume that certain groups are less intelligent than others. Back to the topic at hand:

I haven't started medical school yet, but as a URM I've had many negative experiences. I've found that most people are fairly encouraging, but some have just come out and told me they think there is a biological basis for what they view as black's lower intelligence. When I tell them about my scores and achievements, they assume I've inherited "smart" genes from my white grandmother. I sincerely hope I'll encounter more educated people in medical school, but I am living in Texas so I guess I won't hold my breath.

LadyJubilee8_18 said:

I haven't started medical school yet, but as a URM I've had many negative experiences. I've found that most people are fairly encouraging, but some have just come out and told me they think there is a biological basis for what they view as black's lower intelligence. When I tell them about my scores and achievements, they assume I've inherited "smart" genes from my white grandmother. I sincerely hope I'll encounter more educated people in medical school, but I am living in Texas so I guess I won't hold my breath.

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What a bizarre notion. I'm not sure what astounds me more: that people would say something like this to you, or that people would actually believe such a thing in the first place. Intelligence is such a complex amalgam of genes as well as environmental influences. I don't understand how anyone who is "educated" could come to this conclusion.

I would say that part of the issue is many people's lack of exposure to people of different races. People who have not had an opportunity to get to know many URMs, or who have only been exposed to a limited segment of them, will have distorted ideas about what URMs are "like." This is a universal response to lack of familiarity; it doesn't just apply to URMs. For example, my family is Jewish, and I took a trip with my ex (who was not Jewish) to visit some family friends of his in rural Virginia. These people had literally never laid eyes on a Jewish person before, and they had some quite interesting beliefs and ideas about Jews. One was that Jewish people have horns. (shrug. Don't ask me. Mine were sawed off at birth.)

QofQuimica said:

What a bizarre notion. I'm not sure what astounds me more: that people would say something like this to you, or that people would actually believe such a thing in the first place. Intelligence is such a complex amalgam of genes as well as environmental influences. I don't understand how anyone who is "educated" could come to this conclusion.

I would say that part of the issue is many people's lack of exposure to people of different races. People who have not had an opportunity to get to know many URMs, or who have only been exposed to a limited segment of them, will have distorted ideas about what URMs are "like." This is a universal response to lack of familiarity; it doesn't just apply to URMs. For example, my family is Jewish, and I took a trip with my ex (who was not Jewish) to visit some family friends of his in rural Virginia. These people had literally never laid eyes on a Jewish person before, and they had some quite interesting beliefs and ideas about Jews. One was that Jewish people have horns. (shrug. Don't ask me. Mine were sawed off at birth.)

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Heh. It's not just a lack of familiarity. Having horns is not really a value-free description--Kind of implies that Jews are tools of the devil. And this is why I don't live in rural Virginia.

QofQuimica said:

I would say that part of the issue is many people's lack of exposure to people of different races. People who have not had an opportunity to get to know many URMs, or who have only been exposed to a limited segment of them, will have distorted ideas about what URMs are "like."

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I don't think that holds true in most scenarios. You're argument lets them off too easily. I have been discriminated against by non-Hispanic white professionals who have lived in Miami for the greater part of their adult life. Therefore, they have been exposed to a variety of different races for quite some time and their education should make them know better.

As someone who is not an under-represented minority, I have heard whipsers and stuff, mostly from acquaintences. It's kind of disheartening to hear negative derogatory comments from my peers, but trust me. It does happen.

On the very 1st day of school, one guy I was talking to was lamenting the fact that he didn't get into his top choice school and commenting about how blacks and hispanics had such an easy ride. It was disgusting. I've also heard over lunch how so and so isn't pulling her weight and she just got in because she's black. Unfortunately, this stuff actually does happen quite often. I'm sad to say that racism still exists today. It's just a lot more hidden.

what's disturbing is that these bigots are our future colleagues. if i ever come across comments like that, i'm definitely going to say something. perhaps calling somebody out on their ignorance will cause them to stop and reflect? it's worth a shot, i guess.

CANES2006 said:

I don't think that holds true in most scenarios. You're argument lets them off too easily. I have been discriminated against by non-Hispanic white professionals who have lived in Miami for the greater part of their adult life. Therefore, they have been exposed to a variety of different races for quite some time and their education should make them know better.

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No, I think you are misunderstanding what I mean on at least two levels. One is that the simple presence of URMs is probably necessary but definitely insufficient to dispel prejudices. The problem is that being AROUND some URMs isn't the same thing as being FAMILIAR with them, really getting to know them as human beings. For example, if these people you mentioned are discriminating against you because you are Hispanic and they are white, then they are seeing you as "other," as not like themselves, and they are not getting to know you as YOU. Thus, it is clearly not sufficient to simply throw two people of different backgrounds into a room together and expect that presto, all of their preconceived notions about one another will magically disappear. Stereotypes have to be actively combatted. Even people in multi-ethnic cities like Miami can avoid having to more than superficially examine their own prejudices if they choose, as your example illustrates. However, the presence of people from different backgrounds does increase the chance, IMO, that people will become familiar with them, versus if they are completely surrounded by people exactly like themselves.

Second, I am in no way excusing this behavior, although I am interested in explaining it. However, explanations are not the same thing as excuses. I would agree with you that many of us do not live in rural places where we never even get exposed to people of other ethnicities, and so most of us could, if we choose, get to know people who are different than ourselves. If we choose NOT to do so when we are given the opportunity, then it is certainly fair for someone to call us on that.

QofQuimica said:

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I think Q is correct that a large contributing factor to prejudice is based on the idea that we (the collective "we" of humanity) see people who are not like us as OTHER. In this way, we do not relate to them, and can even dehumanize them. In my own experience as a URM, or half URM, or whatever you want to call me, I've encountered ignorance more than I've encountered hate. Thus, the best solution, as one poster commented on above, is to confront prejudice when we witness it and use it as an opportunity to educate others.

Brainsucker said:

Heh. It's not just a lack of familiarity. Having horns is not really a value-free description--Kind of implies that Jews are tools of the devil. And this is why I don't live in rural Virginia.

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Actually, I remember them talking about the horns in art history... Apparently, there was some kind of mistranslation of the Latin version of the Old Testament, and there's actually a statue someplace in Europe of Moses with horns...

CANES2006 said:

I don't think that holds true in most scenarios. You're argument lets them off too easily. I have been discriminated against by non-Hispanic white professionals who have lived in Miami for the greater part of their adult life. Therefore, they have been exposed to a variety of different races for quite some time and their education should make them know better.

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UM is a great school, don't get me wrong, but it has one of the most racist, closed minded faculty members that I've ever met. Unfortunately, racism is ubiquitous and you will be confronted with it wherever you go... but, as long as you know who you are, people can say whatever they want.

Baps said:

UM is a great school, don't get me wrong, but it has one of the most racist, closed minded faculty members that I've ever met.

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Most definitely. Why do you think I'm so bitter about the school?

Baps said:

Unfortunately, racism is ubiquitous and you will be confronted with it wherever you go... but, as long as you know who you are, people can say whatever they want.

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Couldn't have said it better myself.

Saluki said:

Actually, I remember them talking about the horns in art history... Apparently, there was some kind of mistranslation of the Latin version of the Old Testament, and there's actually a statue someplace in Europe of Moses with horns...

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Yes, Michaelangelo's (sp?) statue of Moses in "The Church of St. Peter in Chain's" in Rome has horns...in fact until the late Renaissance that translation was considered valid, so everyone thought Moses had horns instead of white light around his head.