women in OMFS

drumbeat said:

I am really interested in OMFS, but I am very concerned about the residency schedule as a woman. Are there any female OMFS around? Or, know a few? Is it possible to have a family? (I know it might be a stretch, but have a baby at some point?) Or, do I have to give up being one if I want to have a family? (Stop everything till I am done with the residency??)

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Not easy to do. If you have a baby during residency, then take three months off, then all of the other residents will be picking up your slack while you are gone. Very difficult to do with only two interns, a third/fifth year and a chief. I know a ton of women in OMS. They do fine.

http://www.dental.ufl.edu/Offices/Oral_Surgery/Faculty_pages/MStavropoulos.html

There is one. She always answered all my questions and let me shadow her at UFCD, shoot her an email and I'm sure she wouldn't mind answering a few questions of your own.

dexadental said:

http://www.dental.ufl.edu/Offices/Oral_Surgery/Faculty_pages/MStavropoulos.html

There is one. She always answered all my questions and let me shadow her at UFCD, shoot her an email and I'm sure she wouldn't mind answering a few questions of your own.

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Yeah, Stavropolous is pretty good. She is well trained, too.

drumbeat said:

I am really interested in OMFS, but I am very concerned about the residency schedule as a woman. Are there any female OMFS around? Or, know a few? Is it possible to have a family? (I know it might be a stretch, but have a baby at some point?) Or, do I have to give up being one if I want to have a family? (Stop everything till I am done with the residency??)

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hey drumbeat...i am an omfs fellow in a brooklyn hospital and its insanely busy...you have to commit 110% to omfs if that is what you want..a typical day for me is round at 7am, lecture at 8am, clinic from 9-5, lecture at 5pm, evening rounds and then every third nite i am on call-in house call...so there is no time for a life...its tough-just make sure that this is what you wanna do...any ??'s, pm me...
Sonigee

med school = tons of free time

The residency director in our program at Iowa is Teresa Morgan. She's great.

First let me start by saying that it can be done by a female. But the fact that you ask the question suggests that you have some reservation about making the commitment. And that's understandable if you want to have babies. As far as family goes, I personally believe that it's not possible to be both a quality mom and a quality oral surgeon at the same time....both are full time jobs and one will suffer. It seems most of these women tend to rent other mommies and call them "nannies"...which makes me wonder why they have kids in the first place.

toofache32 said:

First let me start by saying that it can be done by a female....As far as family goes, I personally believe that it's not possible to be both a quality mom and a quality oral surgeon at the same time....both are full time jobs and one will suffer.

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I wholeheartedly agree with toofache32. I think she is one of the best 5th years that my program has. In terms of being a good mother, I think she uses one of these to take care of her kids.

what about being both a quality oral surgeon and a quality father?
As someone who is very interested in OMFS that is the question I am currently asking myself.

toofache32 said:

First let me start by saying that it can be done by a female. But the fact that you ask the question suggests that you have some reservation about making the commitment. And that's understandable if you want to have babies. As far as family goes, I personally believe that it's not possible to be both a quality mom and a quality oral surgeon at the same time....both are full time jobs and one will suffer. It seems most of these women tend to rent other mommies and call them "nannies"...which makes me wonder why they have kids in the first place.

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Bodega Do Luiz said:

what about being both a quality oral surgeon and a quality father?
As someone who is very interested in OMFS that is the question I am currently asking myself.

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For me, my job as a father definately suffers. But the role of the mother is much more critical to a child's development, in my humble opinion.

toofache32 said:

I personally believe that it's not possible to be both a quality mom and a quality oral surgeon at the same time....both are full time jobs and one will suffer.

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Wow, if this is true, then most our female patients are probably excellent oral surgeons!

Bodega Do Luiz said:

what about being both a quality oral surgeon and a quality father?
.

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I think if you got yourself a quality wife you'll do just fine.

north2southOMFS said:

Wow, if this is true, then most our female patients are probably excellent oral surgeons!

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most of our patients consider seeking a way to get disability a full time job (isn't it crazy how working in a county hospital makes everyone cynical; it's virtually a second language and I'm fluent in it) I had a patient tell me today that she wants to see the social worker because she wants "someone" to pay her rent. This after her UDS was pan-positive. She had a cocaine induced MI in the hospital and then left AMA. I think she might get nominated for a darwin award soon.

toofache32 said:

It seems most of these women tend to rent other mommies and call them "nannies"...which makes me wonder why they have kids in the first place.

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I rent time with your mom.

toofache32 said:

First let me start by saying that it can be done by a female. But the fact that you ask the question suggests that you have some reservation about making the commitment. And that's understandable if you want to have babies. As far as family goes, I personally believe that it's not possible to be both a quality mom and a quality oral surgeon at the same time....both are full time jobs and one will suffer. It seems most of these women tend to rent other mommies and call them "nannies"...which makes me wonder why they have kids in the first place.

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....sometimes the truth can't be "politically correct" nor can it be stated sometimes without someone being offended....

Jediwendell said:

Not easy to do. If you have a baby during residency, then take three months off, then all of the other residents will be picking up your slack while you are gone. Very difficult to do with only two interns, a third/fifth year and a chief. I know a ton of women in OMS. They do fine.

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If I have to pick up the slack for you for three months while you go off to have a kid, I'm going to be pissed. My last month in the ER, we had an OBGYN resident start taking her leave. The rest of us had to take extra shifts to cover all of hers. Did we get paid any more? No. Did she continue to get paid? Yes. That's bullsh*t. Save it for when you're finished. It's an inconvenience for everyone else involved...

OMFSCardsFan said:

If I have to pick up the slack for you for three months while you go off to have a kid, I'm going to be pissed. My last month in the ER, we had an OBGYN resident start taking her leave. The rest of us had to take extra shifts to cover all of hers. Did we get paid any more? No. Did she continue to get paid? Yes. That's bullsh*t. Save it for when you're finished. It's an inconvenience for everyone else involved...

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Why would she save it for when the residency is done? The resident on leave is getting a sweet deal - time off with a paycheck. Out in private practice, no one will pay you when you have to shut the office for maternity leave. Better to take the maternity leave on the hospital's tab in this case. I don't think you will get those on maternity leave to see your way on this one... although I think your point is valid.

griffin04 said:

Why would she save it for when the residency is done? The resident on leave is getting a sweet deal - time off with a paycheck. Out in private practice, no one will pay you when you have to shut the office for maternity leave. Better to take the maternity leave on the hospital's tab in this case. I don't think you will get those on maternity leave to see your way on this one... although I think your point is valid.

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Obviously, it's great for the one taking the maternity leave. My point is, do that when I'm your upper level, and I'm going to make life miserable for you when you come back. It's inconsiderate to and incovenient for your fellow residents when you take time off. It's the same way with sick days--you had better be admitted to the hospital if you're going to take a sick day. Three months of it...hell no. Here's another thing to think about: you'll definitely make your program think twice about taking another female afterwards.

How about this, Griff? Have your kids, then apply to OMFS if it's really what you want to do. I really don't care how you work it out, just don't do it while you're in an OMFS residency. Or, there are plenty of other specialties where your maternity leave will not as much affect your fellow residents...

So I guess moonlighting during maternity leave is out of the question.

flat4 said:

So I guess moonlighting during maternity leave is out of the question.

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Touche.

OMFSCardsFan said:

...Here's another thing to think about: you'll definitely make your program think twice about taking another female afterwards....

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Exactly. My program hasn't matched a female in 12 years. I don't know if it has anything to do with the last one moonlighting while on maternity leave. But it would definately color my future decisions if I was a program director.

Just a couple of things to keep in mind, from a woman who has gone through the application process... make sure to ask programs/residents if they have ever had a female resident. I found myself at several interviews as the "token woman" and when I asked residents if they thought their program would ever accept a female resident was told flat out no (I actually walked out of interviews)... do your research before you accept an interview. In addition I was told flat out on two occasions by attendings during the interview process that it would be unacceptable to to take time out to have a family. Obviously you can choose to fight the battle, but personally would not want to be involved with a program with that attitude. Personally I belive that residency comes first, and you would certainly have conflict with other residents due to them having to pick up the slack. it sucks that it is easier for men to have kids during residency. My program has a history of being very supportive of women. One resident did have a baby during her chief year and she says she would never recommend it.

you should look at the MGH program in Boston. Tons of women faculty, lots of achievements and families as well.

buck-E said:

Just a couple of things to keep in mind, from a woman who has gone through the application process... make sure to ask programs/residents if they have ever had a female resident. I found myself at several interviews as the "token woman" and when I asked residents if they thought their program would ever accept a female resident was told flat out no (I actually walked out of interviews)... do your research before you accept an interview. In addition I was told flat out on two occasions by attendings during the interview process that it would be unacceptable to to take time out to have a family. Obviously you can choose to fight the battle, but personally would not want to be involved with a program with that attitude. Personally I belive that residency comes first, and you would certainly have conflict with other residents due to them having to pick up the slack. it sucks that it is easier for men to have kids during residency. My program has a history of being very supportive of women. One resident did have a baby during her chief year and she says she would never recommend it.

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It´s funny to see the difference between USA and Europe in this respect. Here it´s totally unacceptable (actually it´s against the law) to ask a female applicant about her family planning while in recidency. We´ve had one female resident take maternity leave while in her 2nd year, and that´s 9 months paid time off! Of course it meant us fellow residents had to take more on-calls, but we get paid extra for it, so there´s at least some compensation. I know of at least two residents in another program who have done the same. It´s not popular with the other residents, but personally I´m all for it. I think it´s great they have this possibilty.

There you have it! If you're a lady looking to do OMFS, go to Europe!

EuroOMFS said:

It´s funny to see the difference between USA and Europe in this respect. Here it´s totally unacceptable (actually it´s against the law) to ask a female applicant about her family planning while in recidency. We´ve had one female resident take maternity leave while in her 2nd year, and that´s 9 months paid time off! Of course it meant us fellow residents had to take more on-calls, but we get paid extra for it, so there´s at least some compensation. I know of at least two residents in another program who have done the same. It´s not popular with the other residents, but personally I´m all for it. I think it´s great they have this possibilty.

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It's theoretically illegal to ask these questions in the USA for any job interview, but we ask it. I say "theoretically" because it's a valid question and the females who get asked these questions are shooting themselves in the foot if they make a stink about it. Name one program that will rank highly a female who causes trouble before they're even in the program.

toofache32 said:

It's theoretically illegal to ask these questions in the USA for any job interview, but we ask it. I say "theoretically" because it's a valid question and the females who get asked these questions are shooting themselves in the foot if they make a stink about it. Name one program that will rank highly a female who causes trouble before they're even in the program.

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Probably not one. Over here (at least in Denmark, Sweden and Norway) they don't get asked about their plans. If a program director did ask, the applicant would either refuse to answer or answer honestly and then raise a formal complaint afterwards if she didn't get matched. She would most likely win the case. In any case, the head nurse (who also participates in the interview) would not let the program director get away with it.

Point is, over here there's no way you would get away with even thinking about not matching a female applicant because she might go and get pregnant while in recidency. It complicates matters for our program director (and us) when one of our female residents takes 9 months off to have a kid, and I think he would rather have they didn't, but his hands are tied. The public opinion is supportive of carrier women having kids, it's a whole different situation over here.

EuroOMFS said:

The public opinion is supportive of carrier women having kids, it's a whole different situation over here.

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So do the fathers of children get any time off? If so, probably not 'months.' That is why it's ridiciculous to think that a woman can have a child during a type of residency like that. It's just inconsiderate to the highest degree, in my opinion.

toofache32 said:

It's theoretically illegal to ask these questions in the USA for any job interview, but we ask it. I say "theoretically" because it's a valid question and the females who get asked these questions are shooting themselves in the foot if they make a stink about it. Name one program that will rank highly a female who causes trouble before they're even in the program.

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"Luckily" I have a mother-in-law who is kind-of a women's rights attorney she has advised me that it is illegal to ask anything about and/or make a decision according to family planning choices (admissions, job interviews, or anything like it). You can easily prove if someone asked an illegal question, but it is difficult to tell if a mental decision was made illegally.

I am all for families, but if someone is going to go into a residency and devote their all to the residency and then some time later need 3 months or (9 months in europe) off and they took a space of someone who was going put their all into it and put their fair share of work into it, I would tend to not want the undedicated person in the residency. It is all a choice that should be made before residency.
My opinion is if you (male or female) want to have kids and want to be in a residency your spouse should be at home to care for the children. The resident should put everything into the residency that their fellow residents are willing to put into it. That doesn't leave much time to be a parent. The other parent therefore has to be even more of a parent.
I don't believe in bringing kids into the world and then hiring a parent for the children whose devotion to your children is determined by their paycheck.

unlvdmd said:

So do the fathers of children get any time off?

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I think in most Scandinavian countries fathers can choose to take 3 months off. I don´t know of any that have done so while in OMFS recidency. I´d do it if I had a kid when I´m finished, but not while still a resident, because I just want to get this thing over with and get my certification!

My wife, who has a master´s degree in business, tells me that in her world, the banking-world, it´s a whole different ball game. Of course the same laws apply, but in many banks and financial businesses women who fully use their right to a maternity leave, don´t get promoted and have to figth twice as hard for their career than men. So I guess no matter the what the law says, many private businesses will never be supportive of their female staff taking time off to have kids. If they can´t stop them from taking leave, they will just make their lives miserable instead.

Whoops! I accidentally bumped this thread...