For all you competitive people...

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H_Caulfield

H_Caulfield

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I was just wondering whether the prospect of doing 3 years of internal medicine bothers anyone. Not for any practical reason (I think IM is great from a substantive standpoint), but from, I suppose, a somewhat petty egotistical standpoint.

Personally, I worked really hard in college to get into an excellent medical school. Now that I've been admitted, I'm taking out a boat-load of money in loans to pay for it, when I could have gone to a state school for almost nothing (relatively speaking). So now, in order to get to where I want to be, I need to first spend three years in internal medicine: a residency that's comprised of more than 50% IMGs (according to freida) and many other students who were out partying or something while I was hunched over my books for four years. I forewarned you that it was petty, but still I can't help but let it bother me.

Anyone else tempted to apply to something like radiology or ENT just to do justice to how hard you've worked and to your achievements up to this point? I just can't help thinking that, with cardiology, I'll be first entering a field that I could have entered had my MCAT score been 8 points lower, my GPA been a whole integer lower, and my step 1 been 50 points lower.

Just wondering if anyone else has thought at all about it. Thanks.
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Don't forget that the majority of those people will go on to specialize, just like you. Does that bother you, too?
 
H_Caulfield said:
Just wondering if anyone else has thought at all about it. Thanks.
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i went to a top ivy league medical school, completed a reknowned IM residency, and went to a top 5 cardiology fellowship. i would probably say i am a competitive person. all along the way, i have found my colleagues to be talented and impressive individuals.

if your goal is to attend a top tier cardiology fellowship, you will likely need to have trained in a top tier IM residency (or else have equivalent competitive credentials). look into the class standings of the individuals from your school who went to Johns Hopkins, BWH, MGH, UCSF, etc. for internal medicine. you may look down on them now, but after your 3rd year and after taking the USMLE's you may feel differently.

in the end, a person should not be choosing his/her profession strictly based upon the level of competition, but rather on the level of enjoyment, satisfaction, and suitability. if you resent your peers because they have a lower GPA than you do, that is YOUR PROBLEM.
 
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you'll always meet people WAAY better than you at what you do, no matter where u end up. even if u end up in the least competitive speciality with your 270/270 scores :) lifes like that

id think that thought pattern you display might get you in some pretty depressing moods every now and the.

and them imgs... EWWW!! i mean if they got 200 - theyre lazy incompetant bstrds. if theyre pulling 270s that ass mustve studied 2 yrs and did nothing else right!

peace.
 
Life is UNFAIR!

If I were you, I would study hard in med-school, get into a top-notch IM program, and then a top-notch Card fellowship. That way it may justify your hardwork at the end. Top-notch IM programs and card programs have fewer FMGs as well. Board scores say little about how you are as a doctor. I've seen some FMGs who scored in the 250's on steps and were lousy residents on wards.

Just do what you feel suites you best
 
You are pathetic. Your post just proves that many people are in medicine for the purpose of rubbing their ego. You are bothered by the fact that IM is fairly easy to enter. Instead of focusing on enjoying the field and all the other perks associated with cardiology, you are more concerned with the fact that other "lay" people can enter the field.

We were having a discussion the other day about dermatology. If you doubled the number of derm positions, the field would be far less desirable because many people apply to derm simply because it's the most difficult or one of the most difficult residencies to match into.

It's sad that medical schools do not do more to weed out egotistical people like yourself. You are bad for medicine and most likely you will probably treat your patients in a similar particularly the ones that seem inferior to you. This is why I respect the business field in a way because they do take character, communication skills and other factors into consideration when accepting top candidates whereas medical schools and residencies will pretty much accept anyone as long as they have the numbers.

Please do not go into IM or Cardiology. Apply to Derm or Radiology. There are a lot of brilliant, humble and kind people in IM. Many of them happen to be IMG's. We don't need to ruin the field because some dork who sacraficed his social life for the past 8 years has a chip on his shoulder and wants to show how intelligent he is. And don't try to tell us how "cool" you are etc. That's a pretty standard response.
 
novacek88 said:
You are pathetic. Your post just proves that many people are in medicine for the purpose of rubbing their ego. You are bothered by the fact that IM is fairly easy to enter. Instead of focusing on enjoying the field and all the other perks associated with cardiology, you are more concerned with the fact that other "lay" people can enter the field.

We were having a discussion the other day about dermatology. If you doubled the number of derm positions, the field would be far less desirable because many people apply to derm simply because it's the most difficult or one of the most difficult residencies to match into.

It's sad that medical schools do not do more to weed out egotistical people like yourself. You are bad for medicine and most likely you will probably treat your patients in a similar particularly the ones that seem inferior to you. This is why I respect the business field in a way because they do take character, communication skills and other factors into consideration when accepting top candidates whereas medical schools and residencies will pretty much accept anyone as long as they have the numbers.

Please do not go into IM or Cardiology. Apply to Derm or Radiology. There are a lot of brilliant, humble and kind people in IM. Many of them happen to be IMG's. We don't need to ruin the field because some dork who sacraficed his social life for the past 8 years has a chip on his shoulder and wants to show how intelligent he is. And don't try to tell us how "cool" you are etc. That's a pretty standard response.
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Well hello there! One of the IMGs, I presume. I was only wondering whether anyone had felt the same way that I do (I guess I can chalk your answer up, ultimately, to a "no"), and thought that I'd sufficiently humbled myself and admitted beforehand that the concern was petty.

Some of us like to see ourselves in a noticeably better position if we work harder and perform better than others. It obviously bothers you, but that's still, to some degree, the way that America works. So until total socialism hits home you'll have to deal with "pathetic" people like me expecting to see some recognition in return for superiority.

I'm sure you won't admit that medicine requires diagnosis and planning, which in turn requires intellect, which, again in turn, is pretty well indicated by GPA, MCAT, and USMLE scores. You're probably also the type to try and convince people that most D.O. applicants are interested in the "philosophy" of the field; that most IMGs just can't get enough of that island-living, that they could have gone in the U.S., and that their scores and grades being low is just a total coincidence.

See? Now I've probably pissed everybody off. But if being hunched over my books for four years, so that I'll have a comprehensive understanding of my profession, makes me a "dork," then who's the one who shouldn't have been let into medical school? I'm certainly not the one, because my attitute (the one you've just complained of) will push me as far as I'm capable of going, and if (God forbid) you should need a physician for yourself or for a loved one, I'll bet you'd opt for the well-studied and egotistical guy instead of the one who just couldn't pull off that 32 on the MCAT and had to go the IMG-route. I know many of them are "brilliant, humble, and kind," but I also think that competitiveness is to thank for most of our greatest successes.
 
Just so you know, not every IMG went that way because they didn't get a nice MCAT or a good UGPA. I can only speak for myself, but there is at least one that is going that route for other reasons.

Just so you know.
 
H_Caulfield said:
...thought that I'd sufficiently humbled myself and admitted beforehand that the concern was petty.
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your "humility" is utterly insincere, as evidenced by your collective posts. don't waste your time rationalizing this $hit.

H_Caulfield said:
So now, in order to get to where I want to be, I need to first spend three years in internal medicine: a residency that's comprised of more than 50% IMGs (according to freida) and many other students who were out partying or something while I was hunched over my books for four years.
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you seem to be fond of labeling internists as lazy, uncompetitive, inferior, and unworthy colleagues. why should anyone in internal medicine feel offended? :rolleyes:

H_Caulfield said:
...people like me expecting to see some recognition in return for superiority.
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oh brother...
H_Caulfield said:
But if being hunched over my books for four years, so that I'll have a comprehensive understanding of my profession, makes me a "dork," then who's the one who shouldn't have been let into medical school?
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you are delusional if you think you've even scratched the surface of comprehension in medicine by reading books in medical school. wait until residency, then you will start to understand.
H_Caulfield said:
I'll bet you'd opt for the well-studied and egotistical guy....
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you seem to think these traits go hand-in-hand.

in sum, i think you are a fool. wisen up, and get your head out of the sand...
fakir.jpg
 
QTip

I apologize if I offended you in my rant. You are obviously an example of a brilliant and Ivy-educated physician who doesn't look down on his IMG and DO peers. The vast majority of IM physicians in your situation have come to respect their IMG and DO colleagues. Unfortunately, there are people like him who exist.

Besides, I don't even know what he is complaining about. If he wants prestige in IM, he can get that. He can do his residency at a high ranked program. Even the IMG's who match in cards at a community program won't be able to brag at cocktail parties that they did IM at Duke. The IMG's won't be able to work in academics at a highly regarded university program on the east coast. Unfortunately, they will just have to settle for earning a lot of money and being adored by the public in private practice like the other "average" cardiologists. :)
 
H_Caulfield said:
Some of us like to see ourselves in a noticeably better position if we work harder and perform better than others. It obviously bothers you, but that's still, to some degree, the way that America works. So until total socialism hits home you'll have to deal with "pathetic" people like me expecting to see some recognition in return for superiority.
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And some of us realize that being a physician is a privilege and not a right. This field is not about you buddy, it's about them. The fact that you are putting yourself first before your patients is pathetic. Hey, I'm human and I understand we all aspire for prestige and material aspects but not at the expense of avoiding a field simply because there are too many IMG's in it. Honestly, I wish people like you had become investment bankers or Wall-Street traders. You obviously went into medicine with the sole purpose of becoming powerful. It is sad that our profession doesn't do more to eliminate people like you. And thank god there are enough talented yet humble people in medicine that I have the choice of avoiding future physicians like you in exchange for people like Qtip. And I won't be the only one. You have been watching too many episodes of Nip/Tuck if you think you can get away with being a jerk to your patients regardless of your talent level. There are more than enough people who are equally as talented as yourself but who are not "personality challenged." When you are in the real world, you will experience that the hard way, hopefully not before a judge.
 
novacek88 said:
I apologize if I offended you in my rant.
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no offense taken. no apologies necessary. :D

yo H_Caulfield,
you've chosen an interesting avatar. Wittgenstein, despite being a genius, was not the glory hound that you have demonstrated yourself to be.

listen, i understand that we appear to be harsh to you, but you have an alarming degree of judgmentality and self-entitlement for someone so early in his/her medical career. it is truly a long road, and our interactions with people along the way will not only be impactful, but also durable (it's funny how the embarassing ones tend to have more memory). i would advise you to explore carefully your motives for wanting a career in medicine, and see if it guarantees you satisfaction, or whether it spells for you a disgruntled and spiteful career.
 
H_Caulfield said:
I was just wondering whether the prospect of doing 3 years of internal medicine bothers anyone. Not for any practical reason (I think IM is great from a substantive standpoint), but from, I suppose, a somewhat petty egotistical standpoint.

Personally, I worked really hard in college to get into an excellent medical school. Now that I've been admitted, I'm taking out a boat-load of money in loans to pay for it, when I could have gone to a state school for almost nothing (relatively speaking). So now, in order to get to where I want to be, I need to first spend three years in internal medicine: a residency that's comprised of more than 50% IMGs (according to freida) and many other students who were out partying or something while I was hunched over my books for four years. I forewarned you that it was petty, but still I can't help but let it bother me.

Anyone else tempted to apply to something like radiology or ENT just to do justice to how hard you've worked and to your achievements up to this point? I just can't help thinking that, with cardiology, I'll be first entering a field that I could have entered had my MCAT score been 8 points lower, my GPA been a whole integer lower, and my step 1 been 50 points lower.

Just wondering if anyone else has thought at all about it. Thanks.
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So you consider having IMGs as your colleagues, derogatory?

My friend, you have a lot to learn in life! You may have all the book knowledge in the world...but that aint gonno get you far if you are lacking in other aspects that are needed in your profession.
 
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Billy Shears said:
Just so you know, not every IMG went that way because they didn't get a nice MCAT or a good UGPA. I can only speak for myself, but there is at least one that is going that route for other reasons.

Just so you know.
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at least two billy! :D
 
To the original poster: get over yourself, you're not that great. This fact will be affirmed when you start hitting the wards and find out (*gasp*) that there are many IMG's and DO's who can out diagnose you and who will be better physicians.
 
I have never understood why people get on here and talk about how high their MCAT, GPA, Step 1, etc. etc. is. Trying to impress a group of people I don't know and will never meet seems like a complete, utter waste of time. Besides, usually if you have to talk about how great you are, then you're really not.

cheers.
 
what i don't understand is how come IMG's are so negatively portrayed? The whole world needs doctors..and if international doctors were not competent and dedicated physicians, half the world would be sick with diseases by now. Sometimes I feel like we Americans place ourselves on such a pedastal, regarding U.S. medicine as golden standard by which all medicine should practice. I guess my point is that we should not overlook the positive benefits doctors from all over the world could bring to healthcare here in the U.S.

:)
 
cbenedic said:
what i don't understand is how come IMG's are so negatively portrayed? The whole world needs doctors..and if international doctors were not competent and dedicated physicians, half the world would be sick with diseases by now. Sometimes I feel like we Americans place ourselves on such a pedastal, regarding U.S. medicine as golden standard by which all medicine should practice. I guess my point is that we should not overlook the positive benefits doctors from all over the world could bring to healthcare here in the U.S.

:)
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That's a good point, but at the same time, it's difficult for a foreign doctor to come to the United States and practice anything other than the medicine that is standard here. The main difference between us and the rest of the world is that we order way more tests and rely on the physical exam far less. Medical-legally speaking, you MUST order these tests to cover your back. You could probably diagnose appendicitis almost all the time without a CT, but everyone gets one anyway...cuz you know there'll be that one kid that comes in and has an atypical presentation and if anything at all goes wrong and you don't order that CT, you're in trouble.
 
all these IMG arguments assume one thing incorrectly: that the reason IMGs have trouble getting into the country is that their clinical training is poor. Medicine is a protected market, and as such the number of physicians is kept artificially low. That is by far the biggest factor in the barriers to IMGs, if we let everyone who wanted to practice come do it doctors would be making peanuts.
 
H_Caulfield, it seems like there a lot of moralists here on SDN who are quick to jump to the conclusions about your character, which only you yourself know or your actions show (obviously we don't know this about you). You may have tremendous respect for IMGs, DOs, but the fact of the matter is that the system (residency selection process) often treats them as if though they are less competitive applicants. I don't see anything wrong with you wanting the reward for your hard work, other than the rewarding experience of treating patients, which will be present whatever field you choose. People may say do what you like the most, but I would argue that it is hard to know what you like the most until you actually do it, and I mean not just watch from the sideline, but do it, like perform an operation, or do an angioplasty. Your hesitancy to enter IM with the goal of going somewhere else is understandable because it adds 3 years of uncertainty, and if you get in a personal conflict with some weird faculty member, or by mistake ask someone wrong for the letter of recommendation (can't be liked by everybody), this may negate all the hard work you have done to date, while of course it won't be the end of the world. But you don't need the end of the world to make you feel $hitty.

I am curious what you have decided. Please post.
 
Benassi said:
H_Caulfield, it seems like there a lot of moralists here on SDN who are quick to jump to the conclusions about your character, which only you yourself know or your actions show...

I am curious what you have decided. Please post.
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I am not a moralist but an astute judge of character with a finely tuned bull$hit meter. H_Caulfield's declarations are self evident, and his/her opinions are clear for all of us to read. I am not "jumping to conclusions" but rather making a very well informed judgment based upon the substantial evidence at hand.

H_Caulfield's lack of clinical perception suggests to me that he/she has yet even completed his/her clinical clerkships. I am not the slightest bit interested in knowing what his/her inclinations are at this time, as his/her preferences are likely to change as most med students are likely to do at this phase in training.
 
I don't want to take sides. But one fact is clear. Very few of the top kids in medical school end up choosing IM. There is without doubt a stigma amongst many medical students that IM is 'inferior.'

Please don't rail me. I'm just stating a very common opinion. I don't have my own opinions on this, especially since I'm considering IM. I understand very well that students who match at top 20 IM programs could have also matched into derm, ortho, etc.

It seems the OP has pissed off a lot of people but I believe this is what he/she was trying to say about IM. I don't think they should be railed b/c this is a very common perception. Perhaps if people explained to him nicely instead of lambasting him, he/she can later see the beauty of IM instead of remembering how bitter IM people were on SDN when asked a very honest question.
 
MuppetHorn said:
I don't want to take sides. But one fact is clear. Very few of the top kids in medical school end up choosing IM. There is without doubt a stigma amongst many medical students that IM is 'inferior.'

Please don't rail me. I'm just stating a very common opinion. I don't have my own opinions on this, especially since I'm considering IM. I understand very well that students who match at top 20 IM programs could have also matched into derm, ortho, etc.

It seems the OP has pissed off a lot of people but I believe this is what he/she was trying to say about IM. I don't think they should be railed b/c this is a very common perception. Perhaps if people explained to him nicely instead of lambasting him, he/she can later see the beauty of IM instead of remembering how bitter IM people were on SDN when asked a very honest question.
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i've never seen quite so many "new member" posts in one short thread. all with the same opinions, verbage, and inflections.

i get it...

MuppetHorn = Benassi = H_Caulfield
 
Qtip96 said:
i've never seen quite so many "new member" posts in one short thread. all with the same opinions, verbage, and inflections.

i get it...

MuppetHorn = Benassi = H_Caulfield
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I'm definitely not the OP, believe me. I definitely don't go to an IVY league med school and I'm not really that smart. I'm just echoing the notion that the best medical students aren't dying to go into internal medicine. This is a generalization of course, as there are usually a handful that do choose internal medicine.

I'd love to be an interventional cardiologist or an advanced endoscopist or something really awesome like that. But if I were at the top of my class (which I'm not), having to go through an IM residency to get there would feel like a deterrance. Perhaps the OP was simply asking how someone in that position rationalizes pursuing IM. There's no need to get nasty about this, friend.
 
Time to bust out some preceptions as numbers dont lie...

The following link is a link to an offical 2005 NRMP match data for each specialty.

http://www.nrmp.org/matchoutcomes.pdf

You will see, for people (US seniors) who matched in IM, the average USMLE score is 220 and 15% are AOA's, these numbers are slightly above average compared to national average, and is comparable to other popular major specialties like EM (219/10%), MP (219/13) and categorial gen surgery (222/16). So the fact of the matter is that IM, as a field, draws from a representative and competitive field of US graduates. The preception that "very few top students choose IM" is incorrect. Even though you can argue that by percentage, a specialty like ortho (32) or derm (49) have higher % of AOA's, those are MUCH much smaller field than IM, so in terms of absolute numbers, IM still draws more AOAs than those fields. Therefore if you take a typical US medical school class, chances are there will be more AOA's applying to medicine than say derm.

The preception that IM is "easy" and therefore "less desirable" probably stems from the fact that there are WAY MORE medicine spots than there are US seniors to fill it. And this is the reason why FMG's are taken to fill these spots. And in IM, between the highest ranked and lowest ranked programs there is a very large disparity of quality of residents. So although it's relative easy to get A SPOT, for people who wants to be trained at the best IM programs its still extremely competitive and is highly regarded among US graduates.

~edited for link~
 
MuppetHorn said:
I'm definitely not the OP, believe me. I definitely don't go to an IVY league med school
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very interesting. the OP simply stated "excellent medical school", though you seem to be privy to more specific information. it is also uncanny that you have the same professional interests as well as the same disdainful opinion of internal medicine.

again...

MuppetHorn = Benassi = H_Caulfield


MuppetHorn said:
...and I'm not really that smart.
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agreed.
 
H_Caulfield said:
Anyone else tempted to apply to something like radiology or ENT just to do justice to how hard you've worked and to your achievements up to this point?
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I'm a fairly competitive applicant. I went through an accelerated (7-year) program at a reputable medical school, and I was elected to AOA and the Gold Humanism Society. I have decided to go into Family Medicine.

I feel that my hard work and achievements are entirely justified. I worked hard so that I would have the choice of entering whatever field makes me happiest. Applying to a field you're not interested in just because it is more competitive is just as defeating as being cornered into a field you don't like because you wouldn't match in anything else.

Consider yourself fortunate to be able to make that decision freely and go with your heart! :love:
 
I laugh at people who think any Ivy League education is that much better.

I went to state schools and my kids will do the same unless they want to pay their own way to attend an Ivy.

An Ivy League undergrad degree for those going into medicine means nothing - just that you likely were spoiled and too ignorant to know that the education isn't that much better than you could get at a Big 10 university.
 
H_Caulfield said:
I was just wondering whether the prospect of doing 3 years of internal medicine bothers anyone. Not for any practical reason (I think IM is great from a substantive standpoint), but from, I suppose, a somewhat petty egotistical standpoint.

Personally, I worked really hard in college to get into an excellent medical school. Now that I've been admitted, I'm taking out a boat-load of money in loans to pay for it, when I could have gone to a state school for almost nothing (relatively speaking). So now, in order to get to where I want to be, I need to first spend three years in internal medicine: a residency that's comprised of more than 50% IMGs (according to freida) and many other students who were out partying or something while I was hunched over my books for four years. I forewarned you that it was petty, but still I can't help but let it bother me.

Anyone else tempted to apply to something like radiology or ENT just to do justice to how hard you've worked and to your achievements up to this point? I just can't help thinking that, with cardiology, I'll be first entering a field that I could have entered had my MCAT score been 8 points lower, my GPA been a whole integer lower, and my step 1 been 50 points lower.

Just wondering if anyone else has thought at all about it. Thanks.
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if you want to compare numbers and get checked back into reality, imgs may have had lower GPAs and MCAT scores, but you can't discount their abilities. many, you'll be surprised, have higher step scores than you, will blow you away and run circles around you in whatever you think you are good at. so be humble, please.
 
Hey guys, easy on the OP plz. I myself am an FMG; but if i were in his place, i would have thought the same way.
 
Why is it that most MD/PhDs--who spend >7 yrs in school after working hard in the lab and undergrad to get into an MSTP in the first place--go into IM and Peds?

Does that make you feel better that the graduates most likely to advance medical science go into these less competitive residencies?
 
H Caulfield...first..IMGs (no i am not one) are often times unbelievably more dominant than some of their attendings and would rock even you. Secondly, dont think IM is for dummies. Its not the "DEFAULT" career ppl think and it takes a LOT of dedication and thinking, at least if you wanna be good. With that being said, I too am applying for cardiology (as we speak) and yes it would be nice to not have to do all three years of medicine, but you know, in the end you SHOULD be that much more intelligent as a physician by having general medical background. The GOOD cardiologists know a LOT of information OUTSIDE their field...that in my opinion is what makes them amazing. Have a good day.
 
TIBOR...about the IVY leagues. The truth is medical school is what you make of it. You will have amazing students graduate from almost any school. The best from a state school can easily compete with the IVY leaguers. I think you ahve an advantage of the name from the IVY league and maybe as an entirity a more competative natured class...but like you say that doesnt make you a more intelligent physician.
As an upper year, i found its pretty nice having grads from schools such as Harvard, UPenn, Duke look up to you (as a state med school boy) and learn from you.
I have no point really, im just bored and felt like writing that. PEACE
 
I can't believe we are having this discussion. Once again snobbery rears its ugly head. First of all, get off this pedastal and realise that the American medical system is not perfect, it is not flawless. In a recent news report 30-50% of diagnosises by doctors are wrong. This is not a record to be proud of. According to the WHO, many countries in Europe have a better healthcare system, countries like Sweden and Belgium. In Belgium, for example, finding a dormitary ward with five to eight beds is extremely rare, the vast majority of patients have a room to themselves or have to share with just one other. Belgium also has a fantastic reputation in cardiac medicine. The best in the world. I'm only know this having spent a couple of weeks in a Belgium hospital as a patient and was privy to see some of the best standards in medical care that the world has to offer and which puts larger G7 countries like America and Britain to absolute shame. This is why I deeply resent this negative talk about FMG doctors because you are classing all these doctors under the same category. You can't do this. American doctors earn a lot of money but that doesn't make them better. Understandably the world is a big place and statistically you would expect to find a large pool of poorly trained and incompetant FMG doctors but hopefully these are the doctors who fall short of passing the USMLE examination and are not legally entitled to practice medicine in the United States.
 
H_Caulfield said:
I was just wondering whether the prospect of doing 3 years of internal medicine bothers anyone. Not for any practical reason (I think IM is great from a substantive standpoint), but from, I suppose, a somewhat petty egotistical standpoint.

Personally, I worked really hard in college to get into an excellent medical school. Now that I've been admitted, I'm taking out a boat-load of money in loans to pay for it, when I could have gone to a state school for almost nothing (relatively speaking). So now, in order to get to where I want to be, I need to first spend three years in internal medicine: a residency that's comprised of more than 50% IMGs (according to freida) and many other students who were out partying or something while I was hunched over my books for four years. I forewarned you that it was petty, but still I can't help but let it bother me.

Anyone else tempted to apply to something like radiology or ENT just to do justice to how hard you've worked and to your achievements up to this point? I just can't help thinking that, with cardiology, I'll be first entering a field that I could have entered had my MCAT score been 8 points lower, my GPA been a whole integer lower, and my step 1 been 50 points lower.

Just wondering if anyone else has thought at all about it. Thanks.
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just wait until after 4 years of school and then residency,, so much will change. you have a grand notion that some doctors are better than another, solely on paper, (before you have even been met them).. etc... remember all doctors treat paitents, with the same medicines, read the same books. we are all colleagues.. and (most) want to help others.
just wait till u get into the Real world (during and after residency).. u will change
 
Anyway Caudwell... you should want to work hard in order to become a good doctor, not just to pass a series of exams. That is the whole point of attending medical school.
 
This is quite a late reply so I'm not sure it'll even get read, but I found the thread interesting.

I think the point, and I could be wrong, Caulfield initially had was how many times do competative students have to prove themselves? I don't think most of us are arrogant SOB's, but we are human and there is an element of pride in everything that you do- I was proud to have done well in college, get into a good medical school, and hopefully land a good IM residency and fellowship. Like everyone else who has done this, I feel it's a combination of hard work and intellect. So, on the rare occasion, I do find myself questioning it- there are so many back doors to get to where I want to go, how am I different at the end of the day?

I love physiology and cardiology, but for a while I was thinking of pursuing neurosurgery, in part because I wouldn't be confused with anyone else. For many of us, for a signficant portion of our lives, we've excelled at something (particularly academics) and usually are recognized for it. Call it vanity if you want, but it's definitely a tough swallow sometimes when you're put on the same par as others who never matched your numbers but still ended up where you are.

But, as the others pointed out, if you like what you do, at the end of it, that's what matters, no matter who else is doing it. So I take solace in that.
 
I agree this was an old thread but worth considering again, for reasons beyond internal medicine and cardiology.

We have much to learn from these brilliant FMGs. You can say what you will about their delayed assimilation / cultural differences / linguistic challenges, but they graduated top in their class at medical schools much more rigorous than many of ours, have encyclopedic knowledge bases, and are completely humble in most cases.

How do I know? I've trained with and learned from many of these folks. We should all be so lucky to be surrounded with these quality people.
 
I will grant that that can be an important thing at the end of the road for some people-- Even basically humble people wouldn't mind having something objective to reflect their diligence and talent.

If your ultimate love is physiology and cardiology, for example, you might have to be a little "ordinary" for three years while you "slum" with the internists. If you choose to look at it that way, you might be miserable or at least not enjoy many meaningful friendships with your medicine colleagues. But if you look at it as a rich and incredible learning experience that you only get to do once, that is a gateway to your ultimate passions, your experience I guarantee will be all the better, and you will be much better tolerated by the internists.

Caulfield might have just been feeling internal conflict from ego vs. his true calling. Young Wittgenstein might have felt he wouldn't be as cool as his orthopedics classmates who got to flaunt their status after match day, because he matched into a position which he could have gotten with board scores 1 SD above the mean instead of 2 - 3 SD. If that's the case, had he considered the fact that top flight internal medicine programs have people with almost uniformly stellar board scores and grades? If ego gratification is what one is after, there are ways to have it at each step of the process, and to still follow your passions. If it still that important to have status, at the end of the day, just follow your heart and apply into something that gives your ego what it needs-- you might be miserable if you don't have it, if that's how you're built.

Okay enough of the pop psychology drivel...
 
JurgenK said:
If your ultimate love is physiology and cardiology, for example, you might have to be a little "ordinary" for three years while you "slum" with the internists...Young Wittgenstein might have felt he wouldn't be as cool as his orthopedics classmates who got to flaunt their status after match day, because he matched into a position which he could have gotten with board scores 1 SD above the mean instead of 2 - 3 SD....If it still that important to have status, at the end of the day, just follow your heart and apply into something that gives your ego what it needs-- you might be miserable if you don't have it, if that's how you're built...
Click to expand...

hmmm... yet another new member initiated on this specific thread...
unbelievable!!!

i identified H_Caulfield's avatar as the philosopher ludwig wittgenstein. only H_Caulfield would be so narcissistic to refer to himself as "Young Wittgenstein".

JurgenK = MuppetHorn = Benassi = H_Caulfield

for crying out loud... give it a break already.
perhaps next time you'll login as Immanuel Kant...
 
Wow that was completely unexpected. The original poster was infuriating, and that's why I got into the discussion this late.

Narcisstic is exactly the word I would have used for the original poster, but I can assure you it wasn't me. My father was an FMG, I have a lot of genuine respect for them.

Please don't flame me- I actually did think this thread was worth bringing up again for the reasons I stated-- FMG's should be respected, and some people need ego fulfillment every step of the way during their training. I don't think these were points well appreciated by the original poster. I should mention I've got at least 10 years on the original poster, since my med school graduation was in the mid 90s. I practice cardiology. I trained with FMGs. I appreciated them, for the most part. I think I might have a little perspective on all this.

Take it easy,

JK
or if you prefer, John Rawls (whom I much prefer over Kant).
 
JurgenK said:
Wow that was completely unexpected. The original poster was infuriating, and that's why I got into the discussion this late.

Narcisstic is exactly the word I would have used for the original poster, but I can assure you it wasn't me. My father was an FMG, I have a lot of genuine respect for them.

Please don't flame me- I actually did think this thread was worth bringing up again for the reasons I stated-- FMG's should be respected, and some people need ego fulfillment every step of the way during their training. I don't think these were points well appreciated by the original poster. I should mention I've got at least 10 years on the original poster, since my med school graduation was in the mid 90s. I practice cardiology. I trained with FMGs. I appreciated them, for the most part. I think I might have a little perspective on all this.

Take it easy,

JK
or if you prefer, John Rawls (whom I much prefer over Kant).
Click to expand...

much apologies for the confusion. the OP is fond of repeatedly posting under new accounts. i thought he/she was at it again.
 
Just a little background on the etilogy of H_Caulfield courtesy wikipedia:

Holden Morrisey Caulfield is a fictional character created by J.D. Salinger. Holden is the teenage protagonist of Salinger's 1951 novel The Catcher in the Rye, but Holden also appears in some of Salinger's other literary works.

Physically, Holden is gangly and tall. He is also described as having several gray hairs on the right side of his head. These two qualities contribute to Caulfield's appearing to be older than his age, yet his mannerisms and behavior contradict that impression. One of Caulfield's most striking and quintessential qualities is his powerful revulsion for "phony" human qualities. Qualities such as narcissism, hypocrisy, and superficiality embody Holden's concept of phoniness; and, unfortunately, Holden is adept at realizing these qualities in other people. This serves to bolster Holden's cynicism and consequently contributes to his mistrust of other people. Interestingly, despite Holden's strong disdain for phony qualities, he exhibits some of the qualities that he abhors thereby making him a somewhat tragic character.

Caulfield is the second of four children, with two brothers, D.B. and Allie, and one sister, Phoebe. (There is also a second sister, Viola, who is briefly mentioned in the short story "I'm Crazy," but is never referred to again.) Allie is deceased at the time of Catcher in the Rye. Their parents are left unnamed in Salinger's works.

Born into a life of wealth and privilege, Caulfield looks down upon the elite world he occupies. He questions the values of his class and society and sometimes appears to oppose conventions merely for the sake of opposition. He is widely considered to be the template for the "angry young man" archetype.
 
H_Caulfield said:
So now, in order to get to where I want to be, I need to first spend three years in internal medicine: a residency that's comprised of more than 50% IMGs (according to freida) and many other students who were out partying or something while I was hunched over my books for four years. I forewarned you that it was petty, but still I can't help but let it bother me.
Click to expand...

I have shared your exact same sentiments in the past. I couldn't stomach it either.

But its a part of the game. There are a lot of people that manage to squeek in an easier manner.

Take medical school for example. Look at all the legacies and faculty's children that get in? These SOBs (unless there scores are pretty decent) have robbed a far more hard-working person of a place in medical school...yet they still get in.

I don't know what to say. If you are REALLY interested in some field, I don't think you should necessarily go to another just because of the *****s that manage to get in.

I wish you luck in making the right choice. Personally I would have a hard time allowing myself to be on par with an IMG or some lazy person who is in my field who just knew how to play the game.
 
someone has a big ego.....hmmmm must have a small _ _ _ _
 
sykosomatik said:
I have shared your exact same sentiments in the past. I couldn't stomach it either.

But its a part of the game. There are a lot of people that manage to squeek in an easier manner.

Take medical school for example. Look at all the legacies and faculty's children that get in? These SOBs (unless there scores are pretty decent) have robbed a far more hard-working person of a place in medical school...yet they still get in.

I don't know what to say. If you are REALLY interested in some field, I don't think you should necessarily go to another just because of the *****s that manage to get in.

I wish you luck in making the right choice. Personally I would have a hard time allowing myself to be on par with an IMG or some lazy person who is in my field who just knew how to play the game.
Click to expand...


I pray everyday...that people like you end up in some community program with 99% IMGs....
 
Shah_Patel_PT said:
I pray everyday...that people like you end up in some community program with 99% IMGs....
Click to expand...

Are you an IMG? I'm thinking you are. Maybe I was a bit abrasive in my previous post. I personally know some IMGs, and they are decent doctors. I didn't necessarily mean to belittle all IMGs.

Nonetheless, I still agree with Caulfield's post. I don't think IMGs have to go through the type of gauntlet that US students have to. That's essentially his main argument - why did he have to go through such a difficult process that that someone was able to circumvent and still arrive at the same position.

Basically it seems like these people have not paid their dues and yet get to claim the same rewards.
 
sykosomatik said:
Are you an IMG? I'm thinking you are. Maybe I was a bit abrasive in my previous post. I personally know some IMGs, and they are decent doctors. I didn't necessarily mean to belittle all IMGs.

Nonetheless, I still agree with Caulfield's post. I don't think IMGs have to go through the type of gauntlet that US students have to. That's essentially his main argument - why did he have to go through such a difficult process that that someone was able to circumvent and still arrive at the same position.

Basically it seems like these people have not paid their dues and yet get to claim the same rewards.
Click to expand...


Just don't stereotype all IMGs to be bad/negative...that's all I am saying...
 
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