Wearing scrubs

I'm on cytology and I've been wearing dressed-for-work clothes more frequently, but then there is this one surgeon who wants intraoperative cytology reads on his endobronchial ultrasound FNAs and then it's a scramble to get into scrubs!

It's nice to not have to do laundry though

Ours is kinda a mix, there are people who wear a tie every day, there was a guy who would turn up in rumply dress shirts that looked like they had been slept in (that was fixed), but there certainly aren't people who wear scrubs on CP rotations.

yaah said:

We seem to have at least 3.

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Are they guys?

What's the point of not wearing them. The only patients we see are dead.
Who is there to look professional for? It's not like the other doctors are going to start respecting us because we are in ties. We might as well go the other route and where shorts, t-shirts and flip flops to work. Inside the other residents will be jealous of us showing up to micro at 10am and leaving by 2pm in shorts and flip flops and t-shirts. However, this only works during the summertime.

The only time I have worn ties is on my two electives where I did D-path rotations. Those months I wore white shirt, tie and pressed white coat every day as that is how they were dressed. But other than that I wear scrubs every single day.

I know a place where there is a dress code implemented, and you cannot show up with scrubs in the oficial part of the dept. And yes, for sure everyone is following it out of respect for the chairmen. So, be it, since apparently there are people without respect for themselfs.

Nadia said:

I know a place where there is a dress code implemented, and you cannot show up with scrubs in the oficial part of the dept. And yes, for sure everyone is following it out of respect for the chairmen. So, be it, since apparently there are people without respect for themselfs.

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That sounds like a lame place. What program is it?

By the way, nice grammar and spelling. It seems like some of "themselfs" should learn how to communicate out of respect for their reports.

In general: most people here wear scrubs on grossing days but not sign-out or dermpath days. Autopsy is variable -- we're getting few enough right now that you can come in in normal clothes and frequently not have to change. CP -- only nice work clothing. I think a couple of people wear scrubs at every opportunity, but personally I like to actually get dressed. Also, I have long legs and hate how scrubs are always way too short!

I shouldn't say I always wear scrubs. I also wear jeans and a casual night clubby button down shirt when I have to present at tumor boards or conferences.

dermpathlover said:

I shouldn't say I always wear scrubs. I also wear jeans and a casual night clubby button down shirt when I have to present at tumor boards or conferences.

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Attention ho!

dermpathlover said:

What's the point of not wearing them. The only patients we see are dead.
Who is there to look professional for? It's not like the other doctors are going to start respecting us because we are in ties. We might as well go the other route and where shorts, t-shirts and flip flops to work. Inside the other residents will be jealous of us showing up to micro at 10am and leaving by 2pm in shorts and flip flops and t-shirts. However, this only works during the summertime.

The only time I have worn ties is on my two electives where I did D-path rotations. Those months I wore white shirt, tie and pressed white coat every day as that is how they were dressed. But other than that I wear scrubs every single day.

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dermpathlover said:

I shouldn't say I always wear scrubs. I also wear jeans and a casual night clubby button down shirt when I have to present at tumor boards or conferences.

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Dermpathlover rules!! Have you read some of these posts, there are great. I mean he/she is great, some of the best crap of the year! Please keep it rolling in. I hope LAdoc can match this one, he is the current king in this department. DPL vs LADoc challenge?

..The only time I have worn ties is on my two electives where I did D-path rotations. Those months I wore white shirt, tie and pressed white coat every day as that is how they were dressed. But other than that I wear scrubs every single day.

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Since everyone here wears "business-casuals" (read: shirt and trousers) everyday, I dont think its a whole lot more to wear a tie as well. I really dont care who thinks I'm looking professional or not, as long as I feel professional.

I wear formals even during the surgpath rotations, where we gross everyday. Since not much gets past the impervious gowns, I dont see why scrubs would save me any mess. I do have a set of different trousers I wear then, as you never know when something might splash below gown level. As it is, I think scrubs are less comfortable than everyday clothes.

dermpathlover said:

..The only patients we see are dead.
Who is there to look professional for?

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..A cursory glance at the modern keyboard (the QWERTY design, patented by Christopher Sholes in 1868 and sold to Remington in 1873) shows a close approximation of the letters F and V, as also several others. A hasty typist might be prone to unintentional mis-spellings. Intentional pettiness, however, in spite of correct grammar and spelling, leaves a bad taste in the mouth...Strong work, Shakespeare.

mcfaddens said:

Dermpathlover rules!! Have you read some of these posts, there are great. I mean he/she is great, some of the best crap of the year! Please keep it rolling in. I hope LAdoc can match this one, he is the current king in this department. DPL vs LADoc challenge?

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LADoc is the one and only King of SDN-Pathology. No one else has his real world experience and can tell it like it is like he does.

If I am in the gross room or on FS duty, its scrubs. Outside of that, some nice slacks and shirt. The end.

yaah said:

I don't know why people don't have any concern for whether they look professional or not. I realize that outward appearance means nothing in and of itself, but there is something to be gained in the way you present yourself and conduct your duties.

I fully realize that I am probably old fashioned in that I think looking appropriate for work is something to be desired. One can be totally serious about work and do great work despite wearing a T-shirt and shorts, but there is something to be said for professionalism. Professionalism in one area can lead to professionalism in other areas. For everyone who says "I don't need that," I would posit that you have already made my point.

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You sure are old fashioned. Back in the day, hobos wore suits and ties and hats. Times change. Are today's hobos any less professional than the ones from the 1930s?

What dictates what is professional?

I'm going to try to start a trend of pathologists wearing RUN-DMC like warm-ups with big chains and sneakers as professional attire. Now that would be comfortable, and much better than wearing a tie to sit there and look at slides at a desk. We would be the envy of all the other doctors, and maybe for once people would start thinking we were cool. Maybe the other doctors still wouldn't think we were cool, but premeds would.

Pathology residents who wear ties or nice pants to sit and look at slides might as well be wearing ties to stay home and play video games. No one notices us and no one cares.

First Yaah posts.....
"I realize many people argue that as long as they are doing the job well, who cares what they wear. That's a weak argument."

Then later he posts.....
"I realize that outward appearance means nothing in and of itself..."

So are you conceding to the "weak" arguement? Please clarify because it seems like a pretty good arguement to me. I mean, people really should be evaluated on the quality of their work, their ability to sign out, teach, present, conduct research, etc. etc. Their physical appearance, style of dress, etc. don't really enter into the equation, IMHO. Also, importantly, as dermpathlover stated....

"Who is there to look professional for? It's not like the other doctors are going to start respecting us because we are in ties."

We are pathologist after all. We don't generally interact with patients (save for FNA's and the occasional bone marrow bx). Our "clients" are other physicians who, in general, have very little respect for us and I doubt that's because we wear scrubs all the time.
I definitely understand why clinicians wear ties and such. There are actually studies that show most patients/ parents of patients prefer doc's that wear ties. However, there are even exceptions to that rule, see Gonzalez Del Rey JA et. al. Pediatr Emerg Care 1995 Dec; 11 (6) 361 - 4. The main conclusion of this article is that parents prefer ties but at the bottom of the abstract it states... "Parents of patients with surgical emergencies are more likely to prefer doctors wearing SURGICAL SCRUBS." So, what defines "professional dress" or "professionalism" depends on the context of the situation.

Deschutes, you asked...."Are they guys?"

Why do you ask? I happen to have a Y chromosome and I almost always wear scrubs. Do you think that there is a difference between scrub preference based on gender?
If you do, I would have to agree with you based on my experience at my program. The female residents seem like they are almost in some sort of competition to see which one can dress the nicest. It's really sort of odd. I asked my wife about this she seemed to not be suprised but couldn't coherently explain the phenomenon to me.

Then UCSFbound chimed in with....
"If I am in the gross room or on FS duty, its scrubs. Outside of that, some nice slacks and shirt. The end."

Is this a function of YOUR desire to dress nice or MSKCC's policy? You are at MSKCC right now are you not (no one else whole mounts prostates BTW)? I would think they would be more flexible there given how busy their fellows are said to be. How is MSKCC? Are they really that busy? I am interested in the surg path/ subspeciality fellowship there. I know your still only a MSIV but any info would be helpful.

And finally the irrepressible dermpathlover added....
"I'm going to try to start a trend of pathologists wearing RUN-DMC like warm-ups with big chains and sneakers as professional attire. Now that would be comfortable, and much better than wearing a tie to sit there and look at slides at a desk. We would be the envy of all the other doctors, and maybe for once people would start thinking we were cool. Maybe the other doctors still wouldn't think we were cool, but premeds would."

...dude, I generally find your posts quite irritating but that's some funny ****.


Anyway, while I tend to almost always wear scrubs I definitiely don't begrudge any of you out there who choose to dress up. I mean the bottom line is you should be comfortable. I could really care less what people wear as long as they are responsible, work hard, and care about what the quality of their work.
Yaah, I don't really understand why you care so much what your fellow residents wear. Maybe you could clarify why that may be?

mike_rakhabit said:

Deschutes, you asked...."Are they guys?"

Why do you ask?

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Let's say I asked it with a wink because I suspected as much.

Re: the "competition to dress the nicest" - it is well-established that women have a wider range of options in workwear than men. And dressing fancy is different from dressing professionally.

If I wore scrubs all the time I probably wouldn't feel qualified to comment on people who take the time and energy to dress well. But the people who wear scrubs all the time must think that dressing well is not worth the effort, no?

Personally I don't believe it takes a study to show that professionalism is knowing what's appropriate when. Clothes will add to or subtract from that professionalism. Wear what you wish, and ignore others' perception of you at your own risk.

Time for a segue into why some people aren't getting the jobs they want.

Villin,
What's wrong with arguement? I think debate is healthy as long as it's done in a respectful manner. Nothing I posted was mean spirited, was it? It certainly wasn't intedned to be offensive. I am simply trying to understand Yaah's point of view because it's different than mine.
As far as the "...care less" thang I'll be careful with my expressions in the future.

I prefer to be professionally dressed (shirt and tie) most times, but obviously if grossing/prosecting/on call, it makes sense to be comfortable and wearing scrubs. My choice/opinion.

As posted above by Yaah….

“I realize that outward appearance means nothing in and of itself.”

AND

“1) Physical appearance (aka dress and how you maintain yourself) is important.”


First off, you are contradicting yourself again. I suppose this is because there is a difference between what people ought to do (e.g. not judge people based on appearance) versus what they actually do (e.g. constantly judge people based on superficial things, like appearance). I definitely acknowledge that this is the reality in pretty much any field but I would rather be comfortable than buy into this ugly culture of prejudging people. Let them judge.

As for this….
“….suggesting that professional attire carries with it benefits that extend beyond one's perception by others.”

Benefits such as….

And as for this….
“I have no idea why your clinicians have no respect for you.”

I was not suggesting that clinicians have no respect for me personally. I was merely stating a commonly acknowledged perception (which you have posted about yourself on occasion) that, in general (I EMPHASIZE IN GENERAL), pathology as a field suffers from a lack of respect and prestige in the medical community and society as a whole.
There are, of course exceptions to this. At the hospitals I am currently employed at most of the surgeons are usually respectful. We, and I personally, have a good working relationship with almost all of the subspeciality surgeons (Breast surgeons would be one notable exception)The medicine people and the pediatric folks are generally not respectful. Anyway, I was merely trying to make the point that the lack of respect most likely has absolutely nothing to do with wearing scrubs but rather ignorance on the part of those clinicians.



Would you show up for a job interview in scrubs? Why is daily work that different?

Would you gross a boatload of placentas or a poo filled ischemic bowel in a three-piece suit? Come on man, yes daily work is different; let’s not get ridiculous here. I am not saying there are NO situations in which one needs wear something other than scrubs. I don’t know what your path department is like in terms of your daily interactions with clinicians but at my program the clinicians RARELY come to our sign outs or come up to see cases (excluding frozens, tumor boards or the occasional curious med student). So, most of my interactions with them are via telephone and/ or email so they don’t ever really see how I dress anyway.


Deschutes adds her two cents…
“Personally I don't believe it takes a study to show that professionalism is knowing what's appropriate when. Clothes will add to or subtract from that professionalism.”

The point of the study reference is not to say professionalism is X or profession dress is X in this situation or that situation. The point is, as you acknowledged in your post, there is much more to professionalism than dress and that “professional dress” can be X, Y or Z depending on the context (e.g. scrubs do not necessarily = unprofessional).


Then she added….
“Time for a segue into why some people aren't getting the jobs they want.”…..ouch!

Now, now Deschutes you’re being a little presumptuous aren’t you? You seem like a very reasonable person based on prior posts. But, this statement seems pretty judgmental--i.e. this guy (whom I don’t even know) wears scrubs a lot and thus must not know how to interview OR know that he needs to dress up for an interview OR know how to be “professional”. It’s not as if the top thing on an employers list is % of time spent in scrubs during residency nor do I believe that a higher % = unprofessional. Additionally, I highly doubt a prospective employer is going to call my PD to get the down low on me and be like “Ooooohhhhhh, he wears scrub how often?!? Forget it then.”
If my dress bothered my PD or-- other attending for that matter --I imagine they would say something. I haven’t got a bad review yet (knocks on wood) and my professionalism score is usually one of my higher scores.

Double post...sorry

It appears we all do different things when walking into a roomful of people we've never met and who have never met us. We do as we see fit!

mike_rakhabit said:

Villin,
What's wrong with arguement? I think debate is healthy as long as it's done in a respectful manner. Nothing I posted was mean spirited, was it? It certainly wasn't intedned to be offensive. I am simply trying to understand Yaah's point of view because it's different than mine.

Villin said:

I have one ? for rakhabit. Of all the initial posts one can write, why reply to someone for the sake of argument?

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As for...

mike_rakhabit said:

Now, now Deschutes you’re being a little presumptuous aren’t you? You seem like a very reasonable person based on prior posts.

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Thank you for approving of my reasonableness - that was very sweet of you. I don't know therefore, why you would think I would be so unreasonable as to judge your colleague's professionalism based on their wearing of scrubs. So perhaps you misunderstand.

My reference to "why some people aren't getting the jobs they want" was certainly not directed at you or at your colleagues - whom again, I've never met. I had in mind a different previous discussion when I wrote that.

its getting heated in here man!!

yaah said:

I don't know why people don't have any concern for whether they look professional or not. I realize that outward appearance means nothing in and of itself, but there is something to be gained in the way you present yourself and conduct your duties.

I fully realize that I am probably old fashioned in that I think looking appropriate for work is something to be desired. One can be totally serious about work and do great work despite wearing a T-shirt and shorts, but there is something to be said for professionalism. Professionalism in one area can lead to professionalism in other areas. For everyone who says "I don't need that," I would posit that you have already made my point.

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I agree with you. Don't get me wrong--I really don't care for ties at all, but I do wear them when not on surg path.

I think there is an air of professionalism that people respond to, either on a conscious or subconscious level. Not sure if it actually helped me out, but during some of my interactions with other physicians and patients (on transfusion medicine, for example), I would guess that they noticed my attire at least somewhat (or noticed that I at least LOOKED like I knew what I was doing ).

I must say, though, that I do enjoy wearing scrubs. It's very flexible at my program. Most guys do the khakis and button-up shirt with no tie thing, a couple wear ties while on clinical services, and few wear scrubs all the time.

In response to the XY XX scrub wearing...

At my medical school. Medicine residents could wear scrubs when on call (optionally) and almost all of them did in the following fashion.

Women would wear the scrub bottoms with a nice shirt, because it was more comfortable (I think also with tennis shoes)

Men would wear scrub tops, because they could loose the shirt and tie, but keep the slacks for the pockets.

I always said the hospital should buy half sets for medicine amd save some money.

djmd said:

In response to the XY XX scrub wearing...

At my medical school. Medicine residents could wear scrubs when on call (optionally) and almost all of them did in the following fashion.

Women would wear the scrub bottoms with a nice shirt, because it was more comfortable (I think also with tennis shoes)

Men would wear scrub tops, because they could loose the shirt and tie, but keep the slacks for the pockets.

I always said the hospital should buy half sets for medicine amd save some money.

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I have to admit, I can't stand the half in scrubs thing. Either wear scrubs or don't, but go halfway. I guess the scrub top/normal pants is barely acceptable, but the scrub bottoms/other shirt always strikes me as someone who is wearing pajamas. Or the worst: scrub bottoms, t-shirt with visible writing, etc. These things don't matter so much as long as you are confined to the grossing room, but it drives me nuts when people walk around the hospital like that. Like one old lady told me when I was a med student, "You should wear a tie if you are going to be playing doctor."

Cabbage Head said:

"You should wear a tie if you are going to be playing doctor."

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Thats why I used the phrase "Student doctor" in medical school.
Patient tend to hear the doctor and drop the playing doctor, or I want a real doctor comments.

I have to say that if you aren't used to scrubs, the pants can be a pain for guys, but once you wear them 2+ time per week for several months you get a system worked out.