AZCOM.......dirty little secrets

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H

harmlessfun21

When I was applying to Osteopathic schools I got a lot of feedback from SDN and current and former AZCOM students - both the good and the bad. I think it's time that I post my own opinions and contribute to information sharing. In the end, we're all responsible for our own lives and educations, but I believe that we should all contribute our best to the sharing of knowlege and opinions - so we can all make informed decisions.

I just finished my second year, and will soon be starting my third, and I do plan on taking both board exams relatively soon. When I applied to AZCOM, the school was doing quite well, the previous matchlists were quite good, students were relatively happy with their educations, and although the clinical education wasn't very strong, they did allow students to do as many out of state as they wanted - and this was a good thing because there were many residency programs that loved to take our 3rd/4th students - and they even provided housing and meals. A few things have changed.....

If you look up AZCOM's accreditation report, you'll notice that for a second time in a row they have brought up the concern of high faculty turnover. During the time that I have been here, the 2 head faculty memebers in the physiology department left the school (Drs. Stanley, married), a top anatomy professor (Dr. Fischer), pathology professor (Dr. McCarver, who now does the occasional 'pity' lecture), and rumor (only rumors so far) has it that this is the last year for Dr. Walters (the head of the anatomy department and and awesome professor), Dr. Mann (head of the biochemistry department), and Dr. Lovecchio (head of Clinical Correlates). Who else is leaving? THE DEAN! And the new dean? A local family practioner! Did students have any input on this? Of course not! Obviously there is something seriously wrong.....

In the past 3 years, AZCOM's tuition has increased 9k, and the number of hospital positions that they offer students has decreased. This is for a number of reasons, among them, the new ASU-downtown medical school and the old UofA are eating up spots, Kirksville's new Mesa, AZ campus is staking their claim, and Creighton University (Nebraska) paid and took all of the spots at St. Joe's hospital. The average loan amount for students next year (everything included) is a little less than 70k. More expensive than USC in Southern California, and this is Glendale, AZ - one of the cheapest places to live that you can think of. Obviously there is something seriously wrong.....

Please compare the matchlists from this past 2 years, to thosefrom 3-7 years ago. Now compare them to other DO schools, and CCOM http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/academic/AZCOM/azcomDean_Match.htm
http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/academic/CCOMClinEd/studentArea.htm
You will notice that competitive placements took a HUGE downturn at AZCOM. Obviously there is something seriously wrong.....

Please take a look at the 3rd year rotations: http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/academic/AZCOMClinEd_Dept/ceMSIII.htm
This is somewhat misleading, as we only get one elective, not two. Moreover, there is one rotation missing! "RURAL MEDICINE" - i.e. you WILL be going to the middle of nowhere for 4 weeks. Also please note that there are 12 weeks of family medicine, and 4 of internal, and 4 or surgery. Compare this to that of NYCOM: 6weeks family, 12 weeks internal med., 12 weeks surgery (and no RURAL MED!!!). When I interviewed at AZCOM I specifically asked if the school was going to try and 'push' me into primary care - as I already knew that I would never go into that field...I was told that AZCOM is a private school that does not receive state funding, and as such did not care what their students wanted to do and that as a 'new and small school we don't have any red-tape and tailor to each students needs.' Moreover I was told that they encouraged their students to do out-of-state residency-based rotations (without limits). All lies of course. The school is very much set on it's students going into family medicine (I'm still dumbfunded as to their reasoning), and as of my year, we are no longer allowed to do more than 3 out of state rotations!!! Keep in mind that the school doesn't have dedicated hospital sites, so the vast majority of our rotations (myself included) are with preceptors in their office - these preceptors are not paid, they are not 'designed' to teach, they have an office to run, and many have terrible student evaluations - but there aren't enough preceptors to go around, in order to weed our the 'bad ones.' Obviously there is something seriously wrong....

The school has decided to add 100 new students to the cla$$ (to bring the total to 250), but it does not have basic science and clinical science resources or faculty to do this. We all know it, we've raised alarms (on deaf ears) and I feel sorry for incoming clueless freshman. Obviously there is something seriously wrong....

Let's do the math! 150 students in my class, paying 42k+ in tuition = about 6.3 million dollars. How much of that goes to pay for our clinical education? NOTHING. All clinical education sites are basically either free (volunteer preceptors, needy community hospitals), or are paid in peanuts. OTHER SCHOOLS PAY BIG MONEY FOR THE STUDENTS TO ROTATE AT QUALITY HOSPITALS. AZCOM refuses. The Mayo clinic in scottsdale offered for our students to rotate at their hospital for a fee, AZCOM refused! Instead we have (and not enough apparently) preceptors with bad evals, and no longer allowed to do more than 3 out-of-state. Meanwhile, the school has put up 3 new buildings since the time that I've been here - and they refuse to release their line-item 'non-profit' financial statements. I wonder why... Perhaps it has something to do with AZCOM's CEO (yes, you heard me right, CEO) Goeppinger absolute refusal to release line-item NON-PROFIT financial statements, and something about this article: http://www.nasfaa.org/publications/2007/awsalchallenge020107.html & http://www.azcentral.com/community/peoria/articles/0131gl-midwestern27Z2.html. Obviously there is something seriously wrong.....

There are many other things (the school's lack of support funding for basic science research), the general hostility of Phoenix physicians towards the school (I wonder why?), and most of all: the students are treated like objects - we are not heard nor listened to. Our opinions mean nothing, and change nothing...and why should they? As long as we're dollar signs, trapped, and forced to keep on giving. Sadly, I had many other offers, and chose AZCOM for what it should have been, not what it is now.

There are many other things wrong with this program. I've only given you a taste from my own personal perspective. I can't change anything at this school, and frankly I don't really care to try, as I am almost done. I didn't get from my education what I had anticipated to get, but I don't live my life with regrets either. To those of you considering coming here (especially if you see yourself as a 'gunner') - think twice. And then a third time. Then a forth. Then hit yourself with a shovel, and think again.

Lastly, a final note about the rumored boards scores etc. It's all BS and I'll explain: AZCOM has a very high pass rate, but low average board scores. In other words "we all know the bare minimum to pass, but not enough to do well." This is true for the comlex. The usmle is a different story - the average score is supposedly a fail (not-passed). Of course, neither average is ever published. Only the fact that our students 'pass' the comlex. Woopdie-doo-hurray...we all barely pass the complex, and barely anyone matched into surgery this past year, radiology, etc.

Medical school is a one time deal. Your education, board scores, and residency placements are one time deals. Think long and hard, and don't rush it. You've put in way too much time, effort, energy, and money to sell yourself short on the most important part of it all. Research carefully, talk to current students, and don't go by the 'pretty campus.' Make your first medical decision! Is this school healthy? Are their finances healthy? Will my finances be healthy? Are the current students healthy? Is their matchlist healthy? Is their clinical education (arguably the most important part of your education) healthy? Is their basic science program still healthy? Is their having the highest facualty turnover of any other school healthy? Is the lack of research funding healthy? Is the increase in incoming class sizes healthy? Are the schools resources healthy? Is this school technologically integrated (i.e. the paid to bring their resources uptodate)? Will I be where I want to be by the time I graduate from here based on the current trends? (i.e. is this patients fever increasing or decreasing over time?)

Be strong. Medicine is still a great field, very rewarding and enriching. Just do your best to prepare for your life-long journey. I wish you all the best of luck, and god bless. :cool:
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Woot!! IBTL....I somehow feel as though I have cemented my place in the stone that is SDN...LOL..:p

-PlAnEjaNe
 
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StringerBell said:
What's IBTL?
(never mind...I just looked it up.)
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:laugh: Me too.

I don't see why this thread should be locked however; threads with far less substance bashing LECOM have gone on for pages. The OP is definitely peeved, but also has some criticisms that seem reasonably valid. I interviewed and was accepted at AZCOM, but the price tag was really a turn off. Probably one of the nicest DO campuses I've seen, though. They do make a big deal about the match list and board scores, too - 99% pass rate I believe.

My wife hated Phoenix anyway. End of discussion.
 
I agree in hoping that the mods don't lock this. Again, this is exactly the type of information SDN is supposed to provide. Sure, it might or might not be valid, but it gives prospective students more things to think/ask about. And other AZCOM students can come in and let us know if they disagree with the op.
 
Man sorry to hear the bad news about AZCOM :thumbdown:. Hopefully things will turn out for you and your residency placement.
 
Just a bit confused as to how the new ATSU-SOMA is taking clinical positions since years 2-4 are spent primarily at CHCs at 11 sites around the country?
 
I am a graduating AZCOM student.

Let me begin by stating that I have received a solid education, although any education is what you make of it. I do, however, agree that MWU is a money making entity. So be sure that you're willing to spend big bucks to attend AZCOM. In fact, my only gripe is that my tuition dollars are going to opening new programs and are not being reinvested in AZCOM or it's preceptors.

Regarding the high faculty turnover rate, I scored very well on all my board exams (approx 90th percentile), and I rarely if ever attended class. If you're a motivated student you will succeed despite what trends exist in faculty employment. I valued my freedom to choose to study at home or a local coffee house. I did not want anyone to dictate to me how to dress or where to be at all times (ironic since I'm in the Air Force, but I digress).

If you put in the effort, you will also have excellent rotations during your clerkship years. Of course, the school doesn't hand these to you. You have to do your research and pursue the preceptorships that appeal to you. I valued the flexibility to search out preceptors who would give me a lot of hands-on experience since I have planned to practice rurally from the get-go. I have definitely acquired skills that a lot of interns I worked with these past two years have yet to master, let alone attempt.

And yes, many of my classmates matched in primary care specialties- IM, Family Med, ER. That's because they wanted these placements, not because that's all they could get. Many in my class like primary care. We do get a heavy dose of it in clerkships, but the school is open about that fact. Read the mission statement. Understand that you will have the ability to match in other specialties if that's what you want. You will only be hindered by your lack of motivation or ignorance, not by the school administration or curriculum.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you will receive a good education at AZCOM (or any other school for that matter). By the time you're in grad school, you should be already be a proficient self-learner. Be proactive. Do your research and always be prepared.

Good luck to all 2007 applicants!

Cyndi

PS And what's wrong with a Family Physician being the dean of a school? I'm going into FM. Someday I plan to return to academic medicine. Perhaps I may desire to become dean. Am I not qualified simply based on my specialty?
 
CptStarbuck said:
I hope some applicants take a hard look at this analysis. I think a lot of people dismiss when people try to give an objective look. Some statements might be opinion but those actually IN the school can often provide insight.

Thanks for the information harmlessfun21. I hope this thread doesn't deteriorate like other threads in the past. Your response was well thought out and an honest opinion.
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This is definitely a subjective post not an objective one. I don't see why it would be locked at this point.

I do appreciate the OP's candor. best wishes.
 
Sounds like the same complaints you hear from students at every medical school in the country.

"Too expensive"
"Our rotation sites suck"
"We arent prepared for the boards"

Im not saying the comments made by the OP are wrong, but they certainly arent unique.

:thumbup:
 
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JPHazelton said:
Sounds like the same complaints you hear from students at every medical school in the country.

"Too expensive"
"Our rotation sites suck"
"We arent prepared for the boards"

Im not saying the comments made by the OP are wrong, but they certainly arent unique.

:thumbup:
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Not quite every school...I've heard nothing but good things about the new schools that haven't admitted a class yet. ;)
 
DragonWell said:
Not quite every school...I've heard nothing but good things about the new schools that haven't admitted a class yet. ;)
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I stand corrected.
 
HunterGatherer said:
...I don't see why it would be locked at this point...
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I don't either...now that the OP no longer exists. He's gone, his other posts are gone...darned near every trace of his existence has dissapeared. Except for his body. I hear that's buried right next to Jimmy Hoffa in the endzone of Giant's Stadium.
 
I am about to start my 4th year at AZCOM and I echo many of the statements the OP said, except for the board scores and placing into competative fields. I pretty much agree with cdreed as well. I am happy that I am not in the class below me- a lot of these changes have happened to their class. They lost out on a lot of good professors and they lost out on doing rotations out of state. I feel for them as they should have been told this from the start. I question where our money goes as well and how they are going to fit sooo many people into an already crowded anatomy lab. I know the U of A and Maricopa Medical Center broke their agreement recently and it looked like a perfect chance for our school to get a teaching hospital affliation, but it doesn't look like that happened. All they did is build some crappy outpatient clinic next door which is worthless when you need inpatient rotations. Don't get me wrong, we have lots of inpatient rotations right now, but a lot of people go out of state as well. With this new rule of only 3 out of state rotations I don't believe the school has enough inpatient rotations lined up; and yes having at least 8 wks of IM and 8 wks of family med would be much better then 4 of IM and 12 of FM. I don't mind the surgery part as much since it is something I don't want to do, but I also have to do 4 more weeks of it during 4th yr. As for board scores I did well and I know others that did well too. I believe the school will prepare you to a point, but the student does need to take some responsibility as well. I know this year's match list was a bit different then in the past, but I think it is just the people in the class. I want to do pediatrics and there were only 3 people in this past years class who matched in peds and this is supposed to be more of a primary care school! I do know of more then 3 people in my class who want to do peds and maybe as many as 7-10. Thus, each class is different so I wouldn't look into the match list too much right now as it might be an aberration. Feel free to PM if you have any questions.
 
Hitemup and CDReed, please explain--I had understood prior to my interview that they were doing away with 3rd year out of state rotations, and at the interview it was stated that 3rd year rotations would be as close to Phoenix as possible because the local students tended to do better on exams. They further stated that Arizona has an interest in encouraging doctors to remain in the state.

However, it was my understanding that 4th year rotations are national. Is this incorrect?

As for expenses, I don't see much difference between AZCOM and any other school except for in-state WVSOM and MSU (out of state for those two schools however is about $7K higher than AZCOM). The two huge exceptions are the LECOM schools which somehow get away with charging around $26K.

As for placement, is it not true as both of you have pointed out that your education is what you make of it. If AZCOM were not teaching the required curriculum to enable its students pass their boards and become successful physicians it would not be accredited. I had thought that matching into a specialty is a matter of individual initiative and hard work and has little to do with a medical school's bureaucracy, though the name recognition of a Harvard or a Johns Hopkins can't possibly hurt.

Anyway, I'm still AZCOM class of '11 and hope to pursue a career in primary care. The OP did not persuade me and in fact comes across as a bitter kind of person who prefers to whine about his life and blame others for his misfortunes and difficulties. I feel sorry for him as he begins his grueling life of rotations!
 
theraball said:
Anyway, I'm still AZCOM class of '11 and hope to pursue a career in primary care. The OP did not persuade me and in fact comes across as a bitter kind of person who prefers to whine about his life and blame others for his misfortunes and difficulties. I feel sorry for him as he begins his grueling life of rotations!
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Wow, way to make an unfounded statement about a person you don't even know. Just because a person has criticisms about his school, it doesn't mean he's some bitter loser. Oh well, typical SDN defense mechanism for when someone posts something you don't want to hear.
 
Thanks for posting this! When I interviewed at AZCOM, I wondered why they only mentioned pass rates, rather than average board scores. What I also think is interesting is that I asked about USMLE scores, and the guy shot down my question by saying, "Why would you want to take that anyway? The COMLEX is all you need to graduate" As though he was clueless... I also asked him about average board scores, and he proceeded to tell me that the statistic was irrelevant and didn't matter, because passing in his mind was the only important thing. This to me, was rather offensive. Can another student confirm that students from this school don't have good COMLEX and/or USMLE scores? I'm interested in average scores, NOT pass rates.

I have another question: Schools like DMU openly give the information that students usually get one of their top three residency placements. I've seen no such stats... So does anyone know? I did think it was incredibly odd that they gave us ONLY the 2001 Matchlist at the interview. I guess the poster answered that question. Something does seem very wrong....

Why are they limiting the number of out of state rotations and giving the students crap free rotations? I felt uncomfortable when they told us at interview that they'd no longer let us do rotations outside the AZCOM system or whatever... WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS?

Anyone want my provisional acceptance? It's for sale. j/k ;)
 
Doctor Bagel said:
Wow, way to make an unfounded statement about a person you don't even know. Just because a person has criticisms about his school, it doesn't mean he's some bitter loser. Oh well, typical SDN defense mechanism for when someone posts something you don't want to hear.
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Typical SDN shoot-from-the-hip without even addressing what was said.

My posting was composed largely of questions, in the hopes that someone who actually knows the answers would answer them and, perhaps, point out the flaws in my reasoning. You're totally welcome to disagree with my impressions of the op.

Not having even attended my first class at AZCOM I'm not trying to defend the place. I'm as upset as the next person to hear about faculty and administration turnover, but turnover can mean many different things. Sometimes turnover in a university or other organization is a good thing--people moving on to better opportunities, getting rid of under- performing management, etc. Or it can be a very bad sign, that good people are leaving a sinking ship. The op offered no evidence one way or the other; perhaps other AZCOMers have some more information.
 
theraball said:
Typical SDN shoot-from-the-hip without even addressing what was said.
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Yeah, I'd describe your statement exactly that way, too.

On a serious note, you could have asked your question without making an unfounded attack on the OP. It is indeed possible. You might note that I only quoted the offensive part of your post. If you want a serious response, maybe you should go back and edit out the insults.
 
Does anyone know when the class size at AZCOM will bump from 100 -> 250?
 
I thought I'd take a little board study break to give my two cents on the OP's comments and on MWU and AZCOM in general. First of all I know who the OP is and I know for sure that he was unhappy with his clinical rotations. I agree with much of what he said, but I disagree with quite a few things as well.

I finished my second year as well on Friday and for the most part I thought my education here was pretty solid. Overall, I feel well prepared for the boards (yes I plan to take both USMLE and COMLEX). Thus, I think the basic sciences were very well run (micro could have been better) and prepare the student well. Unfortunately we had quite a few clinical classes that were a waste of time. The Intro to clinical med class 1st year was a joke and the this year's topics in medicine classes and osteopathic clinical med class need big time improvement. And OMM was very poorly taught and needs a ton of improvement. But classes like clinical correlates and intro to clinical med second year were well done and worthwhile. So during the first two years, I think the program was pretty solid and our class is well prepared.

My concern with MWU and AZCOM lies with the administration and where our tuition dollars are spent. Paying 41k per year knowing that some of that money is being put into the new buildings and programs like the dental school is unsettling. The OP mentioned that the school does not pay preceptors for their teaching services or the hospitals that we rotate at. A classmate of mine actually talked with Dean Cole about this and heard quite the contrary. The school does pay the hospitals that we rotate at, but how much I'm not sure. As for the preceptors, I'm not sure what the deal is with that so I'll have to do more research.

Like DocBR mentioned, the school does plan to increase the class size from the current 150 students to 250 over the next four years or so. This I completely disagree with. In this and the expansion of other programs, I feel MWU is try to make big bucks off of the national shortage in health care professionals. I know there is a big time shortage of primary care docs in AZ, but in order the accomodate this huge increase in class size the university needs to expand the anatomy, OMM labs, lecture halls, and student housing to accomplish this let alone more rotation spots. These new buildings don't seem to accomplish that since they are for the new clinic, the new computer testing center, and the dental school. Maybe MWU will suprise me and do everything they can to accomodate this class size increase, but I haven't seen it yet. For the 2011 class, I don't think this will affect you.

As for the situation with clinical rotations, I was very happy with mine (at least they look good on paper) and a great majority are ward best with the exception of family med which are with preceptors. Unlike the OP I am not gunning for a super competetive specialty like derm, radiology, or any type of surgery. I feel like I will end up exactly where I want to be...whether it be peds, IM, or family. Now I'm not saying that the students who want to match really competetively won't be able to, I'm just saying that it will require a lot of work on their part. That's why I agree with what Cindy Reed's post said about education being all about what you put into it. Many of the students in my class that complain constantly are those who want to have everything spoon fed to them. I can see how some make the argument "well for 41k per year, I better be spoon fed." But on the other hand, medical education is expensive in general and that will only continue to be the case. The most successful students I know are those who are proactive. They are those who spent time with professors outside of class if they didn't understand a concept or wanted to know what to focus on for an upcoming exam. Once it comes time for rotations, those who do research on what hospitals or preceptors got good evaluations from the students tend to get the better rotations. And if you aren't happy with what the lottery gives you, the school is very flexible about changing rotations.

Overall AZCOM has provided a solid medical education, but like any med school it has its flaws. I just hope for the sake of future students, the MWU administration looks to make the necessary adjustments in order to provide the best healthcare education possible. Best of luck to you all. :thumbup:
 
Well, to preface this, I will be starting at AZCOM for the class of 2011, there were a handfull of posts questioning the quality of the matches of AZCOM, so I'd thought I'd just post the match lists for the last seven years. Instead of being a closely gaurded national secret as insinuated by some, it was posted on their website, who'd a thunk it?

http://mwunet.midwestern.edu/academic/AZCOM/azcomDean_Match.htm

For students who don't take the USMLE they sure match a lot of MD residencies in there.
 
I'll also be starting at AZCOM this summer. It's nice to see students chiming in on both sides of the issue; I don't think any medical school is a mecca of entirely satisfied students, and the reasons for dissatisfaction are extremely diverse. Someone's not happy with 12 weeks of Family Medicine; someone else thinks the tuition's too high; someone else thinks not being able to go out-of-state on rotations is ludicrous. But then you'll have the people who actually want to go into Family Medicine and think the 12 weeks are ideal, or the people who actually want to stay in Arizona for their rotations because they have spouses or kids...I mean, most of these issues are in the eye of the beholder (other than the tuition issue, and we all agree that we pay too much, but who wouldn't?).

I think of the tuition/management issue like this: I currently work at a non-profit social services agency where no one has gotten a raise in four years. We barely make enough to live on. The management sucks big time, too, and people are constantly b!tching about their workload. But people are still here doing it! Why? Because they are getting something valuable out of it. Maybe they feel like their work is important, or they can make a difference, or they know it's a road that will help them get to where they want to be in the future. I, for instance, really am not a big fan of my job anymore, but it helped me learn about working with people - an intangible reward that means more to me than a fatter paycheck. Heck, it got me into med school, among other things.

I think I'll probably look at med school the same way. There's going to be some crap to deal with, issues to contend with, but in the end, most of us will graduate as physicians and be equipped to manage our careers. And maybe in the process we will learn how to develop our voices so we can be heard more clearly, and have some input in changes.
 
pineapple said:
Refreshing to read a post that's bashing something other than LECOM!
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What an interesting OP. 10 years ago, they were having the same problem with finding enough rotation spots, faculty, etc. At the time, I figured it was just because they were starting out (it was only the 2nd year they had admitted a class). I would have thought they would have ironed these problems out by now.

However, you can't be mad about AZCOMs emphasis on primary care. That is part and package of the osteopahtic philosophy of medicine. Even if they do not force you to go into PC, they are not obligated to make it easy for you to go into a subspecialty since it is not their stated mission.


Is there any student body leadership at AZCOM to address the issues in the OP?
 
Sarikate said:
I think I'll probably look at med school the same way. There's going to be some crap to deal with, issues to contend with, but in the end, most of us will graduate as physicians and be equipped to manage our careers. And maybe in the process we will learn how to develop our voices so we can be heard more clearly, and have some input in changes.
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:thumbup: :thumbup:
 
I am also a 4th year from AZCOM about to graduate. This is fun to read about all the disgruntled students at AZCOM. I wouldn't believe everything that has been posted thus far.

What is so bad about this year's match list? I serously take offense to that! I know of only one person that did not match into the specialty they wanted. I agree with a previous poster that we all pretty much got the specialty and residency we wanted!! Half our class wanted primary care residencies and they got them. I have a good friend headed to Mayo Rochester for anesthesia, another got into an MD Rad/Onc residency which is pretty much unheard of in the DO world, another is doing PM&R at Johns Hopkins. I'm pretty stoked to be heading to University of Michigan for anesthesia. We also had 3 get into high caliber MD surgery residencies!!! These three were, by the way, the only three going for MD surgery in the class.

Talking with classmates, most people in the class of 2007 got above the 500 (400 needed to pass) mark (~80%), on Comlex step 1 and like 96% passed on the first try. There is not a lot posted about USMLE averages as only 1/4 to 1/2 of the classes take the test. I believe the national average for DOs passing USMLE step 1 is like 75%. I know of only 1 AZCOMer that failed USMLE step 1 and the lowest score I've heard was around 212 (national average 217 for both DO and MD students). DO schools prepare their students for the Comlex and so any info about the USMLE is somewhat irrelevant for them to have. Their goal is to produce osteopathic physicians.

I'm glad to get all that off my chest. Now, there are definitly problems with the school. They do have serious issues with their preceptor based rotations and that third year students are now limited in how many rotations they can do out of state. They're shooting themselves in the foot. There are not enough good rotations in Phoenix for all of their students, let alone the additional 100 they'll be adding in the next couple of years. Most of us got good residencies because we auditioned at a lot of programs out of state during our 3rd and 4th years. One positive thing is that the school will set up your rotations for you and if you're not happy they'll allow you to change them. This is in stark contrast to other schools where you are stuck with whatever they give you. You'll have to research a little.

Midwestern University is a private institution and as long as people come, they'll keep increasing tuition. I'd do the same if I were in their shoes. The first 2 years were great as far as teaching and preparation for boards. The last 2 years are kind of what you make of them.
 
I just finished my second year at AZCOM and my thoughts as far the initial post...just a burned out medical student with, in my opinion, an unfortunate perspective. Yes...I worked my tail off these last two years and am cynical as any other MSII studying for their boards but bottom line I received a solid education over the last two years. AZCOM has its weaknesses like any other school (i.e. a disorganized fragmented OMM department and a senile psych professor) but all in all it's a great place to study medicine.

As far as rotations...not sure what he was talking about. I lined up a solid schedule for this upcoming year. I have six ward based rotations at excellent teaching hospitals in Arizona, a few preceptor based rotations that I CHOSE to do because of the reviews from previous students, and several out of state rotations that I'm psyched about. If you're one of those students that expect things to just magically fall together...you're probably gonna get sub-par rotations...either that or you ticked off clinical ed.

The rotations for this upcoming class are better than they have ever been with more affiliations and connections opening all the time. The matchlist for this year seems as solid as the past few years...whith MANY competitive programs.

And as far as AZCOM pushing family practice...absolute nonsense. Especially in contrast to other DO schools...look at the matchlist...how many students landed spots in ER...many. AZCOM leaves it wide open if you want to do other areas of medicine i.e surgery, ER, etc.. How many times have we had faculty encourage areas other than FP. True we have too many FP required rotations but it's easy enough to get around that.

AS far as board scores...I know many MSIII's and MSIV's that did very well. on the USMLE.

To sum all this up...medical school is what you make of it.
 
As an entering student at AZCOM, I find it extremely refreshing that so many current students have come to the defense of the school. When I read the OPs post I felt my entire body cringe as I thought "I hope I did not make a huge mistake." Aside from what has specifically been said, the simple fact that so many are defending AZCOM gives me relief.

Congrats to everyone for finishing up their current year, and to all my future classmates!

I look forward to meeting everyone in August.
 
Why is it that there are so many people from this school going into ER? ER may float some people's boat, but I don't think it'd be for me... Do you guys have a great ER prof or something? I mean, ER is certainly not the only specialty. It seems that outside of primary care, you guys have a lot of people going into general surgery, pediatrics and ER, with the occasional orthopedic surgeon, anesthesiologist, psychiatrist, pathologist and dermatologist. But, I haven't seen many people going into fields such as opthlamology, plastics, radiology, urology.....etc. Are the rotations good enough to provide you with a real feel for some of these more obscure specialties? Maybe people arent getting enough exposure to them in order to want to go into it or something? Someone else want to venture another idea?
 
op sounds really disgruntled. I graduated from AZCOM in 2006 and I am finishing a prelim surgery year at university of az and will start anesthesia at UAB. I loved the flexibility of AZCOM ie i didnt really go to class much. However, they provided excellent curriculum for board preparation - handouts and exam content.
I also did no rotations in Phoenix. Most of them I did in Tucson and New Orleans. The flexibility of clinical rotations was one of the things that drew me to AZCOM. I am sad to hear that they are only letting you do 3 away rotations - that is almost unbelievable.
The bottom line is that medical school is what you make of it and if you go somewhere you are comfortable and you bust you booty to do well on the boards you will get where you want to go.
I really enjoyed my time at AZCOM - everyone was very nice and overall the culture of the school was very student-oriented and that is what made it great for me. Hope that culture has stayed the same.
 
cdreed said:
I am a graduating AZCOM student.

Let me begin by stating that I have received a solid education, although any education is what you make of it. I do, however, agree that MWU is a money making entity. So be sure that you're willing to spend big bucks to attend AZCOM. In fact, my only gripe is that my tuition dollars are going to opening new programs and are not being reinvested in AZCOM or it's preceptors.

Regarding the high faculty turnover rate, I scored very well on all my board exams (approx 90th percentile), and I rarely if ever attended class. If you're a motivated student you will succeed despite what trends exist in faculty employment. I valued my freedom to choose to study at home or a local coffee house. I did not want anyone to dictate to me how to dress or where to be at all times (ironic since I'm in the Air Force, but I digress).

If you put in the effort, you will also have excellent rotations during your clerkship years. Of course, the school doesn't hand these to you. You have to do your research and pursue the preceptorships that appeal to you. I valued the flexibility to search out preceptors who would give me a lot of hands-on experience since I have planned to practice rurally from the get-go. I have definitely acquired skills that a lot of interns I worked with these past two years have yet to master, let alone attempt.

And yes, many of my classmates matched in primary care specialties- IM, Family Med, ER. That's because they wanted these placements, not because that's all they could get. Many in my class like primary care. We do get a heavy dose of it in clerkships, but the school is open about that fact. Read the mission statement. Understand that you will have the ability to match in other specialties if that's what you want. You will only be hindered by your lack of motivation or ignorance, not by the school administration or curriculum.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you will receive a good education at AZCOM (or any other school for that matter). By the time you're in grad school, you should be already be a proficient self-learner. Be proactive. Do your research and always be prepared.

Good luck to all 2007 applicants!

Cyndi

PS And what's wrong with a Family Physician being the dean of a school? I'm going into FM. Someday I plan to return to academic medicine. Perhaps I may desire to become dean. Am I not qualified simply based on my specialty?
Click to expand...

What he meant was the Dean is suppose to have more Academic credentials. Nonetheless I think you made a good post.:)
 
IWant2BeADoctor said:
What he meant was the Dean is suppose to have more Academic credentials. Nonetheless I think you made a good post.:)
Click to expand...

As I understand it, Dr Kemper does have "academic credentials." She used to be involved with the DO residencies that were once available in Phoenix. I have worked with local physicians who trained under her while still in residency. The word is also that she has a very strong business acumen, as well (hence MWU's interest in her).
 
to all you who have read the OP and still decided to come here, you will soon no his/her pain. to those who are still applying to med schools, don't dismiss his/her comments. i am an ms4 who is graduating in a week and everything said in the OP is exactly correct. if you poll my class or any class under mine probably over 90% of the people agree with that assessment. talk to any doctor who precepts studenst for the school and you will hear the same sentiments from them concerning the school. from the students to the doctors in the community, the school does not have a good reputation. sure students are doing fine on boards but how hard is it to study on your own and do well on boards at another cheaper school that has good rotations. the school is in no way connected to the good board scores of their students. my friends and i studied hard to do well on boards and skipped a lot of class to do so. the school did not help me or anybody i know do well on boards. 12 weeks of family practice is not good training. it will not prepare you for residency. i can not state any better than the OP about the horrible choice you will make or have all ready made about attending this university. you will regret it. wait an extra year in your undergrad and retake some classes and the MCAT, exaust every other opportunity before attending this school. i'm sure most of you will just ignore this post and say i'm too bitter. well, wait a few years and you will be just as bitter as i am. how many times do people have to hear the same evaluation of the school and where it is headed before they finally listen.
 
"the last two years are what you make of them" you will hear that over and over from people. do you know what that means. read between the lines, that means that the school is not going to help you at all during your final two years. in fact the clinical education office will do everything in its power to fail you for a rotation and will not do anything to help you in any situation or for any reason. the deans of the clinical education office have no regard for your plans as a physician and with the exception of the dean of surgery will do nothing to help you. the 3rd and 4th years of school at midwestern are hell. get out now if you can. even if it means loosing the $2000 or whatever amount it is to hold your place at the school. or if you don't, remember these words of advise on this forum that you so easily dismissed.
 
StaryMagic said:
Why is it that there are so many people from this school going into ER?
Click to expand...

Pretty much because EM is the @#$%!! ;)

Of note, at least two of the top 3 in our class matched in Family Med. Why, because that is just the type of medicine they want to practice. When some of you get further through the clinical years and closer to your future career you will realize that residency is not at all about "what kind of competitive specialty you can get into" it's all about doing what you will love for the rest of your life! How much time do you want to spend with your family, do you want a family, do you like patients, etc? These are some of the important factors you will weigh.

Why are there not more people in plastics, etc.? Simply because a lot of us just didn't want to!

Those who know me know that I am anything but a cheerleader for the school. I am still laughing histerically when I think of how in the He!! they are gonna find clinical rotations for the extra med students when they ship our class to BFE to do several rotations!
But if anyone is ignorant enough to judge a class/school simply by their match lists then you research has some serious flaws...as you will learn in med school ;)


IT"S OVER!! Congrats fellow '07ers!
See you guys on the 31st.
 
--
 
Pull out your application from every other medical school except Harvard because it is the only medical school that is flawless but I could be wrong. If I am wrong, just stop thinking about going to medical school and do something else.
 
AZCOM is becoming like a Caribbean school. They are just trying to make money and lowering their standards and quality education. They don't care about students. They have increased tuition by 3K each year. They increase tution to fund their dental school and other expansion projects as opposed to investing that money into providing better clinical rotations. The students who will graduate in 2011 onward are going to really suffer. The allopathic downtown medical school and Kirksville's first classes start this fall which means you will compete with two additional medical schools for rotations. That basically means that if you want to do ward based rotations, you will have to travel out of state because the stae will reserve its spots for its local allopathic students first. And it's like Kirksville will devote more money and time to securing rotations for its own students because AZCOM's priorities are in regards to expanding its other programs like the podiatry and dental schools.

The curriculum itself is flawed. They include too many unncessary classes like biochemistry and physiology workshops which provide additional work for the students that doesn't help them in anyway. During your MS II year, the school inundates with you with clinical classes that steal time away from preparing for the boards. These classes are graded and are treated like any other class. Last spring, we had ICM, Clinical Correlates, Topics of Medicine and OCM II in addition to an ACLS course. Is it necessary to have 4 separate clinical classes that essentially teach the same thing? Most of these classes were needless and attempts by the faculty to show off. For example, Topics of medicine tested us on how well we could identify sutures, intubate a patient and public health issues. OCM II had a radiology practical and extraneous information related to OB which should we will be taught during third year. This might sound neat to an incoming student but when you have the boards and real classes to study for like pathology and pharmacology, the last thing you want are a bunch of extraneous classes.

I can understand why AZCOM students and Osteopathic students don't do as well on the USMLE. We shortchange our students in regards to basic science classes in favor of needless clinical classes. Case in point, we should have had both pathology and pathophysiology. Instead, we had just pathology that attempted to combine the two but really favored pathology. I respect Dr. Devine but the class was just a cookbook of bullet points that failed to provide students with a real understanding and conceptualization of pathology. The same goes for neuroscience. We had one neuroscience class instead of a neuroanatomy and a neuroscience course that most allopathic schools incorporate.

The exam process is also flawed. They offer tests each week. I know what you are thinking. It's better to be tested on 2 weeks worth of material than 8 weeks worth. The problem is the professors compensate for that by asking petty minutae to make the exams difficult. So students don't retain concepts and instead worry about silly details. At other schools, you might be tested over 6 weeks woth of material but they don't ask the same level of detail that we get.

Clinical Education and Rotations

Yes, AZCOM has acquired some local ward based rotations. However, they are in limited supply so most students have mixture of some local and preceptor based rotations. They are so limited that they have to interview you to grant you certain rotations. For example, you can't do a ward based surgery rotation locally unless you declare to Dr. Parrack that you are serious about surgery. The same goes for OB and pediatrics. They want to reserve the surgery rotations for those interested in surgery. Some students play the game and lie to each clinical course director but even then they don't get a ward based for each rotation. The person in charge of scheduling your rotations is not the nicest person and you have to kiss her arse if you want anything done. She is supposed to serve you but rather she has a power trip and if she doesn't like you then she will not help you or give you attitude. She doesn't really do much either. You pretty much have to set up your out of state rotations on your own.

The shelf exams are also a disaster. The school is to cheap to pay for each students to take the national standardized shelf exams that all allopathic and many osteopathic students take. So the school writes its own exams which are much harder than the national standardized one because our professors have a power trip and want to write questions that are ridiculously difficult. Many students fail these exams but that goes unreported because they just make them up. If a student fails these exams, they give you the opportunity to take the national standardized shelfs which are easier. By not allowing students to take these shelf exams, residencies can't see how students fared in their rotations nor can they compare us to allopathic students in regards to success on a rotation.

Your class rank is established after your MS II year so your rank is based entirely upon basic sciences. This hurts students who are more adept clinically. Clinicals are pass/fail with no honors to set students apart. Residencies have no idea how our students do clinically and there is no real way for students to set themselves apart in clinicals if they did poor to average in basic sciences.

Our success on the boards has nothing to do with the school. AZCOM's student body is responsible for it's success. 40% of each AZCOM class is comprised of Mormon students. Due to cultural and religious implications,Mormon students are generally more mature and thus are more disciplined since many are married and have children so they commit themselves to school 100%. For example, when other students are celebrating at a bar on Monday night after the morning exam that day, Mormon students are at home with their families and usually studying. In addition, a significant portion of our school come from California. They are students who couldn't get into the most competitive state medical schools in the country so they had to settle on AZCOM. These are students with 33+ MCATs who were rejected. They choose AZCOM because of it's proximity to California and it's slightly better reptuation than Touro and COMP. These are students who would have gotten into most allopathic programs in the south and midwest had they not had the misfortune of growing up in California. The school if anything inhibits our success by inundating us with these clinical classes that take away time from board prep

If I could do it over, I would have probably reapplied to an allopathic school or went to the Carribbean. At least with the Carribbean, you know they will give you ample time to study for the boards.
 
cdreed said:
As I understand it, Dr Kemper does have "academic credentials." She used to be involved with the DO residencies that were once available in Phoenix. I have worked with local physicians who trained under her while still in residency. The word is also that she has a very strong business acumen, as well (hence MWU's interest in her).
Click to expand...

That's not what he means. When people are referring to academic credentials, they are referring to someone who was an attending or chief for several years at a residency program. Dr. Kemper does not possess these academic credentials. She was a family practice physician in private practice for several years. She never taught any classes at AZCOM although there were plenty of opportunities for her to do so should she have wanted that. Being "involved" with DO residencies is not the same as being a program director of one or being an attending in one. The main reason she was chosen was her interest in the position and her local reputation as an excellent clinician (Phoenix Top Doc list)

Also, Dr. Kemper wasn't the first on AZCOM's list to be Dean. They asked Dr. Middleton, the director of Family Medicine at AZCOM, to be the dean but she turned it down to due to family and other responsibilities she has at this time. She would have been an excellent Dean. Unlike Dr. Kemper, Dr. Middleton does possess academic credentials since she teaches full-time now and before that practiced and taught at John C. Lincoln
 
azcom09stud said:
If I could do it over, I would have probably reapplied to an allopathic school or went to the Carribbean. At least with the Carribbean, you know they will give you ample time to study for the boards.
Click to expand...

LOL I was taking you seriously until you said this!

Phoenix is growing by about 120,000 people a year, a significant portion of that geriatric. Area hospitals are adding 100's of new beds per yearto address a severe shortage of medical facilities and personnel. It's hard to believe that in this environment, AZCOM students will be lacking interesting rotation spots. OK maybe there are administrative issues with the school--every school has that--but they'll certainly overcome these problems.

Deans come and go--anyone in academia knows this--it's a tough job. "Medical school is what you make of it" still seems like the right attitude. It's unfortunate that some people didn't enjoy their medical education; I just hope they have what it takes to get through residency and the reality of medical practice.
 
Well I guess all you future AZCOM students are doomed!

You have three out of four 4th year AZCOM students (who have, by-the-way, completed 3rd and 4th year rotations Azcom09stud!!) posting here that yes the school does have problems, but that we received a quality education. Believe who you want to believe

Problem list as I see them:

1. Class size increasing from 150 to 250
2. Rotations- 3rd years staying in state and the lack of good ones
3. High Tuition
4. New Dean


Things going for AZCOM:

1. Most students getting one of their top 3 choices of specialties/residencies
2. Excellent basic science professors with the open door policy
3. High board scores and pass rate
4. Flexibility to set-up your own rotations and to make changes

Everybody loves to complain about their school and would like to make their own changes. Can't make everybody happy. You'll receive an excellent education for your first two years and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise. 3rd and 4th year is upto you. If you're not proactive and you let the school set up your rotations, you're screwed. I agree that we shouldn't be paying 41K if we are setting up our own rotations. Remember that we at least have the option to change our rotations and set up our own unlike most other schools.
 
Azcomstud said:
4. Flexibility to set-up your own rotations and to make changes
Click to expand...

But here's the question and what seems to be the crux of the op's complaints -- how true is this anymore? It sounds like the clinical situation has changed a lot recently, so what was true for you guys isn't necessarily true now. In the past, the story about AZCOM that you heard around SDN was that the rotations weren't so great in Arizona but that you could do great rotations if you were willing to go out of state. Then there was some story about them supposedly fixing the instate rotation issues through some legislative action, but now some posters are saying that the instate rotations still aren't great and that the oos rotations are pretty strictly limited. So, really, what's the state of rotations for the class of 2009 onward? Until that's resolved, I don't think you can have this on your list as a pro. Having the flexibility to pick between a lot of rotations that you don't want isn't the great.
 
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