Michael Moore's Sicko

I think it will be good in that it will open up more debate in the healthare issue in the U.S. I'm definitely gonna see it but I'm not expecting a fair and balanced documentary. It is afterall Micheal Moore. And this is coming from a liberal.

exi said:

This is what I think of that stupid bull****. Misleading people into thinking that Cuba is some healthcare paradise in order to push your own opinion? Right.

Link courtesy of Scalpel's RSS feed.

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He's done absolutely nothing of the sort. What he HAS done is shown that it was easier for 9/11 emergency workers to get adequate (not perfect or all encompassing) health care in a nation we typically look down upon, rather than in their own country.

I didn't know Bill O'Reilly was a pre-med =)

Michael Moore = Bad Documentary

Morgan Spurlock = Good Documentary

I probably won't be seeing it. In general, I don't think socialized medicine is a good idea. I also think that this film is kind of ridiculous. As Americans are we really supposed to idolize the healthcare system of a third world country with one of the worst records for political rights and civil liberties? I consider myself a political moderate and still see this film as just another Michael Moore liberal propaganda film. If he's wondering why our life expectancy isn't higher he should put down the cheeseburger, convince others to do so, and then watch as our statistics rise.

exi said:

Fine, I'll be less judgmental until I find out whether he does insinuate what I was whining about as much as the premise of the film suggests.

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Good =). Trust me, I think Michael Moore should be taken with a grain of salt. My general rule is that the first 30-45 minutes of any of his films are great, but once he starts "extrapolating" from there, it just goes down the tubes.

However, that being said, I've heard that this film is much more mundane than his previous few and may actually be quality work =).

burningsky said:

I probably won't be seeing it. In general, I don't think socialized medicine is a good idea. I also think that this film is kind of ridiculous. As Americans are we really supposed to idolize the healthcare system of a third world country with one of the worst records for political rights and civil liberties? I consider myself a political moderate and still see this film as just another Michael Moore liberal propoganda film. If he's wondering why our life expectancy isn't higher he should put down the cheeseburger, convince other to do so, and then watch as our statistics rise.

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Hmm...well, socialized medicine seems to work in every other Western nation (we are currently the only nation in Western culture without basic universal health). We could even go the route of Italy - your basic care is covered by the government, and any electives are on your own private insurance. Sounds good to me.

while i don't nessisarily support GWB I can't help but notice that while Moore is critisizing him and others ...he himself had never graduated from an accredited university with exillent marks ( in one of his books, he admits to <C> grades)...how does that give him the right to judge others?

jrklein said:

while i don't nessisarily support GWB I can't help but notice that while Moore is critisizing him and others ...he himself had never graduated from an accredited university with exillent marks ( in one of his books, he admits to <C> grades)...how does that give him the right to judge others?

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Soo....you feel it is necessary to receive high marks in order to point out things that you think are wrong in the nation?

Wow...what a small, petty world you must live in.

mfpullen said:

I didn't know Bill O'Reilly was a pre-med =)

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Bill: Now I know that I got a C-average on the midterm and the final, but I think we could all agree that giving me an A is the fair and balanced thing to do.
-Dr. P.

mfpullen said:

Soo....you feel it is necessary to receive high marks in order to point out things that you think are wrong in the nation?

Wow...what a small, petty world you must live in.

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no its not that I think you need high marks, its just that I don't think you should judge others when you made the similar mistakes

jrklein said:

no its not that I think you need high marks, its just that I don't think you should judge others when you made the similar mistakes

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You think Michael Moore made similar mistakes to GWB????

Holy crap!

Let's look this over...Bush has admitted to cocaine abuse, DUI, bankrupted an oil corporation (in Texas of all places), traded Sammy Sosa AND A-Rod from the Rangers when he was owner, lied to get us into a war that has cost thousands of American soldiers' lives, took us from a surplus to a large deficit, waited nearly a WEEK to respond to Katrina, has taken more vacation days than any president in history, and STILL has not found Osama.

But yeah, Michael Moore has totally made similar mistakes.

mfpullen said:

You think Michael Moore made similar mistakes to GWB????

Holy crap!

Let's look this over...Bush has admitted to cocaine abuse, DUI, bankrupted an oil corporation (in Texas of all places), traded Sammy Sosa AND A-Rod from the Rangers when he was owner, lied to get us into a war that has cost thousands of American soldiers' lives, took us from a surplus to a large deficit, waited nearly a WEEK to respond to Katrina, has taken more vacation days than any president in history, and STILL has not found Osama.

But yeah, Michael Moore has totally made similar mistakes.

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pretty sure thats not what I meant

burningsky said:

I probably won't be seeing it. In general, I don't think socialized medicine is a good idea. I also think that this film is kind of ridiculous. As Americans are we really supposed to idolize the healthcare system of a third world country with one of the worst records for political rights and civil liberties? I consider myself a political moderate and still see this film as just another Michael Moore liberal propaganda film. If he's wondering why our life expectancy isn't higher he should put down the cheeseburger, convince others to do so, and then watch as our statistics rise.

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Michael Moore would be one among many who idolize the Cuban health system. Renowned author and physician Dr. Paul Farmer also seems to feel that many aspects of their system are superior to our own. If you haven't already, read "Mountains Beyond Mountains" for evidence of this. And actually, it is the restriction of personal liberties that in some ways decreases public health risks in Cuba. For instance, blood tests for certain diseases are mandatory and positive tests result in quarantine. Obviously, that would never be acceptable in the US, but it's interesting to see the health benefits of such a move. Also, I think this discussion could do without ad hominem arguments.

mfpullen said:

You think Michael Moore made similar mistakes to GWB????

Holy crap!

Let's look this over...Bush has admitted to cocaine abuse, DUI, bankrupted an oil corporation (in Texas of all places), traded Sammy Sosa AND A-Rod from the Rangers when he was owner, lied to get us into a war that has cost thousands of American soldiers' lives, took us from a surplus to a large deficit, waited nearly a WEEK to respond to Katrina, has taken more vacation days than any president in history, and STILL has not found Osama.

But yeah, Michael Moore has totally made similar mistakes.

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I can't believe we elected someone with that track record.

burningsky said:

I probably won't be seeing it. In general, I don't think socialized medicine is a good idea. I also think that this film is kind of ridiculous. As Americans are we really supposed to idolize the healthcare system of a third world country with one of the worst records for political rights and civil liberties? I consider myself a political moderate and still see this film as just another Michael Moore liberal propaganda film. If he's wondering why our life expectancy isn't higher he should put down the cheeseburger, convince others to do so, and then watch as our statistics rise.

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Right, and the US is THAT much better....your healthcare system is hardly much better...

I think Michael Moore is no dumb fool - he is very aware of how his films come off and he is also highly aware that most well informed folks do not take his docs too seriously. What Moore has that other doc film makers don't have is the "brand power", which is what he is. Thus, his films are meant to, and do, reach a mass audience - the majority of which are probably not well informed about the issues Moore highlights in his films. So he makes his films highly biased and one-sided, because it's more entertaining to watch than a serious doc that is slow and that considers both sides thoroughly. You are right in that it is propaganda, but I don't see how Moore is any different from your news networks - which are either biased to the right or to the left, he's presenting liberal propaganda...so what, it's either conservative propaganda or liberal propaganda in the US! Rightwing fanatics are going to dismiss it as such anyway, and the liberal fanatics already believe what he believes...I don't see anyone being swayed by his film.

I spent a summer in Cuba when I was in college, and I have to agree, the access to primary care there is impressive, given the limited resources. But in my opinion, for tertiary, specialized care, there is no better place to be than the United States, either by access or quality standards. This is the trade-off: the U.S. health care system looks pretty good IF you are among the 84% of Americans who are insured. Whether a Cuban-style system (or for that matter, a European-style system, which is VERY different) is better than our current system really depends on where in society you happen to find yourself. If you are a member of a low-income family without access to employment-based or independent coverage, the U.S. system looks pretty bad. If you are a middle-aged stockbroker whose most pressing health need is access to Viagra, the U.S. system looks pretty good.

In response to the relationship between denying civil liberties and improving public health indicators, I don't really believe Cuban health policies which curtail human rights--such as forced quarantine of HIV+ Cubans in the late 80's--really did all that much to improve outcomes. Compulsory vaccination campaigns there have been, on closer inspection, not all that compulsory, probably no more so than U.S. policies which require vaccination prior to matriculation in public schools. A lot has been written and researched on this subject, but there doesn't seem to be any consensus on demonstrable improvements stemming from such policies--which, I think, makes them all the more abhorrent and indefensible.

Oh, and Michael Moore is a dope. If we lefties are going to wonder aloud how anyone with two brain cells to rub together could listen to Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh, we shouldn't turn around and support Moore, who is merely a smarter, more talented version of Limbaugh--a bomb-thrower.

For all of you pre-meds who are scared of universal healthcare in the US, you will still have plenty of opportunities for private practice.....you just might have to move to Canada:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/01/11/private-care060111.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/28/i...ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&pagewanted=all

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/20/news/canada.php

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/354/16/1661

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/klaus081805.htm


etc...

xylem29 said:

Right, and the US is THAT much better....your healthcare system is hardly much better...

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Than a 3rd world system?... um yeah it is better. While access may not be 100%, the quality and speed of actual care is phenomenal. I figure you are a flagger (Canadian). Let's say that you and I were both suspected of having a brain tumor, I know I would get an MRI immediately (ie in under an hour). You however may have to wait 2 months to get your MRI. What about elective surgery, say to replace a hip... forget about it. I can be scheduled by the end of the week. You may never get a slot to get that surgery.

Socialized medicine is not always better. Sure people can see a PCP but that is not what leads to improved outcomes.

mfpullen said:

You think Michael Moore made similar mistakes to GWB????

Holy crap!

Let's look this over...Bush has admitted to cocaine abuse, DUI, bankrupted an oil corporation (in Texas of all places), traded Sammy Sosa AND A-Rod from the Rangers when he was owner, lied to get us into a war that has cost thousands of American soldiers' lives, took us from a surplus to a large deficit, waited nearly a WEEK to respond to Katrina, has taken more vacation days than any president in history, and STILL has not found Osama.

But yeah, Michael Moore has totally made similar mistakes.

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But unlike Moore, Bush has kept himself in decent physical shape. Maybe Mr. Moore should make a documentary about becoming not incredibly fat before he criticizes the healthcare system for not being adequately cheap to save him from his own lifestyle.

jrklein said:

while i don't nessisarily support GWB I can't help but notice that while Moore is critisizing him and others ...he himself had never graduated from an accredited university with exillent marks ( in one of his books, he admits to <C> grades)...how does that give him the right to judge others?

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That's some interesting spelling there. Did you graduate from an accredited university spelling like that?

microgal said:

That's some interesting spelling there. Did you graduate from an accredited university spelling like that?

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Probably no worse than Cornell...snob. Leave it to a Cornell grad to serve the purpose of a spell checker on an internet forum.

garyjain said:

I know the film isn't out yet, but was wondering what you guys thought about the subject and the film?

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I can't stand Michael Moore and refuse to watch anything he makes. The fact that he glorifies socialized healthcare in Canada, UK, etc. without mentioning their problems is concerning. His reply is that they have to deal with it themselves and he didn't want to highlight it in his films because he wasn't criticizing their health system, but only the American health system. If you're going to offer alternative health systems, you should mention their problems.

microgal said:

That's some interesting spelling there. Did you graduate from an accredited university spelling like that?

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I didn't realize that I was being graded on my spelling here

Depakote said:

I can't believe we elected someone with that track record.

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I think the sad fact is that even with that track record, he was still the best choice.......both times.

StrengthDoc said:

I think the sad fact is that even with that track record, he was still the best choice.......both times.

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You sadden me with your "vote on the person rather than issues" personality...

garyjain said:

I am like most people here, I don't care for either Bush or Michael Moore and I really don't care for their work. But I am worried about the impact of the movie, since Moore's movie usually have some social impact in the United States. I think it is dangerous and irresponsible for someone to misdirect a public that is already not fully aware of the pro/cons of the different types of healthcare systems out there. If his goal was to solely to inform the public, then he would have presented a balanced view of healthcare in different parts of the world, and would not have only shown the good parts. If you look at only the better parts of the US system, one would think it is the best in history. I believe Moore is fulfilling his own agenda, whatever that may be, and doing a disservice to the public. Instead of showing such a slanted view of healthcare, I think he should have made a more moderate movie which would have brought both sides of the extreme closer to the middle to discuss true healthcare reform.

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Moderate movies that discuss true healthcare reform don't sell tickets which is his only goal.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...ry?coll=la-headlines-entnews&track=crosspromo

What do you guys think?

LiterofCola said:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...ry?coll=la-headlines-entnews&track=crosspromo

What do you guys think?

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I think it's Michael Moore. I'll watch it, though with a handful of salt. I'd rather read the opinions of health care professionals, hospital administrators, and health insurance providers. Still, it's intriguing. If Moore is willing to openly bash Hillary Clinton in the documentary, I get the feeling he put his beliefs before his political affiliations. I'm open to anyone's beliefs as long as their tested, even Michael Moore's.

I might watch it but I think I might vomit all over the TV screen. "One way to fight the [healthcare] system is to take better care of yourself?" Um. DUMB**** - that's what most docs are fighting tooth and nail to get their patients to do but they're too lazy to get off their fat asses and run around the block a few times.

If he's targetting the pharm companies more (which it sounds like from the article) then o.k. fine, I think there is certainly some room for criticism. Not only that, but the fact that we rank only two spots north of Cuba on the WHO list is pretty terrible. But don't pretend as though Aetna/Pfizer = American Health Care as an entire entity because that's most definitely not the case.

It'll be interesting to see what this fear-mongering patchouli-smelling muckraker and his nausea-inducing camera angles produce this time.

Michael Moore said:

One way to fight the system," he says, "is to take better care of yourself."

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Oh no, the secret is out, cardiologist everywhere are crying over the loss of cases.

Precisely, Prowler. These statistics never take into account those folks that choose not to have insurance. Sure, they're in the minority, but they exist.

TheProwler said:

67% of those children are eligible for Medicaid, but their parents haven't bothered to sign them up. Again, sounds like American indifference is the problem.

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Don't jump the gun and blame children's lack of insurance on their parents. There is a necessary effort on the government's part to make sure that parents even know about SCHIP and Medicaid, and many states have set goals to increase enrollment in these programs. Also, even if children are covered, part of "American indifference" lies in the poor availability of healthcare services in underserved areas. Nominal coverage is peachy, but until services are feasibly accessible to individuals, it's not going to be effective.

pagemmapants said:

Precisely, Prowler. These statistics never take into account those folks that choose not to have insurance. Sure, they're in the minority, but they exist.

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Hmmm... So there's just something special about the American psyche that we just don't care about our kids? Something odd about us as Americans that we have a total disdain for our children's well-being? Something unique to us as compared to almost every other industrialized culture?

How is that easier to swallow than admitting that our politics of healthcare distribution is flawed?

And it's a little silly to take a look at the fact that 1/6th of the country doesn't have health insurance and then fixate on the very small minority that just don't want it (I'd love to see a source for the percentage, btw). That's akin to withholding aid to Katrina victims, because, hey, some of them would rather pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Or to disregard the rape victims because, hey, some of 'em are prolly crying wolf.

The only folks who seem comfortable with the healthcare system we have now are insurance companies, vested politicians, and a subset of some biased physicians and physicians-to-be thinking more with their pocketbook than their heads. Go ask folks who earn less than $50k/yr (i.e. most of the country) whether they feel the system works. How we best approach the problem is a very valid debate, but to pretend their isn't a problem is just silly.

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Oh wow. I kinda really need pandabear to write a movie. Like, right now.

It is actually pretty common to not want it, espessially among young people who decide that while they can afford it, it is not worth it to them. Insurance is a gamble and if you believe it is a low risk you'll get ill, it is not worth it.

jlq3d3 said:

It is actually pretty common to not want it, espessially among young people who decide that while they can afford it, it is not worth it to them. Insurance is a gamble and if you believe it is a low risk you'll get ill, it is not worth it.

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You're absolutely right. And usually the young people are healthy and they don't have to worry about it. But to a few, something drastic happens and very expensive hospital bills start pouring in and when that uninsured person can't afford it, who do you think ultimately foots the bill after the fact? We do. This is why in most industrialized countries, health coverage is not optional.

When an insured person starts feeling funny or having problems, they see a doctor and sometimes it's a very cheap fix. An uninsured person does not see the doctor until it's often a very expensive ordeal. Preventative medicine >>> corrective medicine.

notdeadyet said:

The only folks who seem comfortable with the healthcare system we have now are insurance companies, vested politicians, and a subset of some biased physicians and physicians-to-be thinking more with their pocketbook than their heads. Go ask folks who earn less than $50k/yr (i.e. most of the country) whether they feel the system works. How we best approach the problem is a very valid debate, but to pretend their isn't a problem is just silly.

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I completely agree. The system self perpetuates as is so evident on this board. I mean, why rock the boat to benefit the greater good if you're in a sweet position? At least, that's the sense I get from all the cynicism toward this film.

Not going to say what's wrong or right with the film since I haven't seen it, but I am excited to see it, and excited about the potential there is for change once the public starts becoming more aware of the possibilities.

This is currently being discussed in the Topics In Healthcare Forum where I feel this is a more appropriate venue. I'm going to merge this thread with that one there.

RosaVerde said:

I am excited to see it, and excited about the potential there is for change once the public starts becoming more aware of the possibilities.

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Yeah, like gun controll suddenly became popular after Bowling for Columbine. Oh... wait... nevermind.