Why is there a negative view towards Argosy University?

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Cosmo75 said:
Hey JS, thanks for the kudos. I will be staying here in lovely, snowy Chicago. Though some of those post-docs at the VA in Hawaii sure looked tempting :rolleyes:
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I'm interviewing in mostly cold places....what was I thinking?!!!
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Members don't see this ad :)
I'm interviewing in mostly cold places....what was I thinking?!!!
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See, I love the cold! It was living in the TX heat that I couldn't stand....
 
Cosmo75 said:
I would think with the drying up of the credit markets, it'll be much more difficult to finance these places. Especially those with $200K+ price tags.
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Interesting.. I refused an offer for an MA in counseling at Oakland University (MI state school) and opted for the PsyD at Argosy.
The costs? The same.

Perhaps because I got my undergrad at a professional school, I understand going into this that you get back what you put into it.
My undergrad edu was excellent, but I had to work my fanny off to get it, (I even changed campuses) it wasn't a matter of just doing assignments.. ;)
I had to push myself, and there were not the peer associations for support. Most were average at best. I found ways to ferret out the best professors and in many ways this made me a better student.
 
For those of you who are going top professional schools, how do you pay for it? Previous income from past careers? Loans? Funding (is any/much available)?
 
My professional school is part of a state university, so the tuition in-state is more reasonable (18-20k/yr). I personally have paid the tuition out of my money saved from a prior career. The exception was this year, where I got full tuition remission as a grad assistant working in the counseling center.

Many of the students get some sort of financial aid from the school, and/or have jobs or work-study. Many get TA or research assistantships as a means of defraying costs. Then of course there are loans.:)
 
Loans for the most part. I did some federal work-study, and got a $10K scholarship. But I'm about $140 in the hole. Comes out to about $35K per year, but I also took extra to live off of so all of that wasn't for tuition. I got about $10K per year in refund checks.

I look at it as a second mortgage :D Though I'm looking into federal loan forgiveness programs to cut some of that down.
 
biogirl215 said:
For those of you who are going top professional schools, how do you pay for it? Previous income from past careers? Loans? Funding (is any/much available)?
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The PsyD's I applied to are all funded programs; most fully. On top of that, I'm pretty sure I only applied to ones that offer money for assistanceships too. Honestly, so much has happened in my life over the last 3 months to change things, I don't remember specifics right now.

Ironically, I'm most worried about one of the phd programs I applied to b/c I have heard that even people w/tuition remission/stipend end up taking out loans to live. We'll see though, I tried to think about quality of education and match over cost.

If you are worried about loan debt, check out my post in the NHSC thread below... I liked to a program that might help you out.
 
I am currently applying to PhD/PsyD programs for the fall of 2009. I am very confused about the opinions surrounding Argosy. I am going for an interview at the Washington, D.C. campus, and now I'm getting nervous because of the controversy surrounding the school. I know the program is accredited, which is not an easy thing to be. Any advice?

Thanks.
 
LunaLG said:
I am currently applying to PhD/PsyD programs for the fall of 2009. I am very confused about the opinions surrounding Argosy. I am going for an interview at the Washington, D.C. campus, and now I'm getting nervous because of the controversy surrounding the school. I know the program is accredited, which is not an easy thing to be. Any advice?

Thanks.
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Here's my take. There's always going to be controversy around Argosy, and probably the rest of the professional schools. They have a different model of viewing psychology training than more traditional PhD programs. I'm not saying I agree at all with these huge class sizes, and I think they're taking us in the wrong direction.

Many students go to Argosy's APA accredited programs and come out good clinicians. They match to internship and are able to find jobs doing what they want to do. They may not get tenure track professor positions at Yale, but that's probably not your goal if you're even considering the program.

If you think the DC program is a good fit for you (I don't know anything about it) and feel that it will set you up for your career, then go for it. Yes, you will have to put up with professional school or Argosy bias. If you do well in your coursework, get good practicum placements, and put in a little bit of research time (or other "extra" activities) you will be a competitive student when it comes time to apply for internship and post-doc. I'd look into the DC campus' match stats for internship, and where their alumni are working, etc. I think even the harshest critics of Argosy can admit that there are some students who finish toward the top of their program and are contrary to the stereotypes.
 
ExpressYourself said:
When I was in undergrad, my professors told me that Argosy was a good school? I'm about to be a second year Psy.D student at chicago's Argosy University, but I've been reading comments about how it's a "diploma mill," how it's a place for rejects to seek a piece of paper certifying them in the clinical psychology field, how some people think they're "too smart" for such a school, how they just want your money and don't give a care about your actual abilities, etc. Has anyone actually attended Argosy or are you just basing things on what you hear? Will getting my degree from there really hinder me in the job market? What's interesting though is that our clinical director said that the school is purposely being tough on the students, so they can earn a "better reputation and show that their students are highly intelligent." I don't know what he meant by that, or if he's implying that the school really does have a bad reputation.

I find all of my classmates to be competent and bright (certainly not the average joe that is just trying to find the easy way out), and we feel that the program is intense enough. Most of our professors are Ph.D's as well, and it certainly isn't a blow-off program. Someone said that professional schools don't match well with internship sites, but a girl did get an internship at Yale University. She's the first Psy.D student they ever had.


Any information would be appreciated. I just hope I didn't make the wrong decision by going to this school.


I made the mistake of only applying to 4 grad schools during undergrad (2 Psy.D's, and 2 Ph.D's). I got rejected by the Ph.D programs, but I had a 3.8 GPA, Gre scores in the 1200's range, and some clinical/research experience. I'm thinking about maybe stopping at my master's degree at Argosy, and re-applying to get a Ph.D again.
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I am graduating from University of Redlands School of Business. The main campus is in Redlands, CA, however I attend the Temecula campus. I started my A.S. in Business at MSJC and earned my A.S. by 2006.

Finally I will have a B.S. in Business/Information Systems by May 2009.:oops: I am thinking about going to Argosy for an M.S. (or is it an M.A.?) in Organizational Psychology. I learned too much about work politics/organizational culture at UofR and it is too important for me to NOT major in this. I feel that will help me get into schools more (high schools or colleges) as a career counsellor or a life coach. :laugh:

Does anyone know what the campuses are like in Southern California (San Diego and OC?) Does anyone know if Argosy has an great program in Organizational Psychology? I refuse to go to the campus in San Bernardino. That city is too dirty. :thumbdown:

Thanks all!
 
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baconfoil said:
??? and you are a clinical psychologist???? unbelievable
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If you read Jon's post carefully, you'll notice that he was recommending that professionals in clinical psychology fight against the high-tuition, unfunded professional schools. He referred to these schools as a plague, not the students who attend them.

I for one think that opinion is entirely believable. :)
 
thewesternsky said:
If you read Jon's post carefully, you'll notice that he was recommending that professionals in clinical psychology fight against the high-tuition, unfunded professional schools. He referred to these schools as a plague, not the students who attend them.

I for one think that opinion is entirely believable. :)
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I read the post, it is a sensationalist, uneeded and unfounded comment. Some of the best intitutions for Psychology around the world are private, unfunded and charge high tuition. If these schools produce psychologists who improve the lives of people, which they do, then they are only doing a good thing. Venomous comments that have no discourse, intelligent basis or discussion are not needed and quite bizarre. especially comparing them to the plague??????
 
baconfoil said:
I read the post, it is a sensationalist, uneeded and unfounded comment. Some of the best intitutions for Psychology around the world are private, unfunded and charge high tuition.
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Around the world, maybe. But some of the best institutions for Psychology in the US are public, fully funded, and provide a stipend. You say you were educated in the UK and I think you'll find that America is pretty much its own separate world :)

If these schools produce psychologists who improve the lives of people, which they do, then they are only doing a good thing.
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Not if admissions standards are drastically lower or almost non-existent and the said programs produce students that struggle to match at APA-accredited internships. Just because someone wants to improve the lives of people doesn't mean they are capable of doing so. Would you go see a primary care physician who was trained at a medical school that has low admissions standards with many of their students unable to gain residency?
 
nononora said:
Around the world, maybe. But some of the best institutions for Psychology in the US are public, fully funded, and provide a stipend. You say you were educated in the UK and I think you'll find that America is pretty much its own separate world :)



Not if admissions standards are drastically lower or almost non-existent and the said programs produce students that struggle to match at APA-accredited internships. Just because someone wants to improve the lives of people doesn't mean they are capable of doing so. Would you go see a primary care physician who was trained at a medical school that has low admissions standards with many of their students unable to gain residency?
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I didnt say wanted to I said did, and don't forget Mr Student, there was no psychology degree when psychology was invented
 
baconfoil said:
If these schools produce psychologists who improve the lives of people, which they do, then they are only doing a good thing. Venomous comments that have no discourse, intelligent basis or discussion are not needed and quite bizarre. especially comparing them to the plague??????
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This is extemely naive and short-sighted and does not take into account the profession. Please consider other real world factors here. I know this may be difficult when you have no expereince in the field (doesn't sound like you do, or you would recognize these issues immediately), but hear us out, please.

There are 2 groups here, patients and psychologists. I care about patients, but I care about my profession just as much. Market flooding drives down the value of services and limits jobs for new graduates. This IS problem in certain areas. Lowering standards decreases the probability of quality product. Why do this? Just to apease everyones dreams of becoming a psychologists? I dont think so! Just because you want to do something, doesn't mean you should always get a easy pass to getting into it. Standards should remain as high as possible in order to maxmize product quality. Very basic dictum that has been around for centuries. Whats the problem?
 
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erg923 said:
This is extemely naive and short-sighted and does not take into account the profession of psychology. Please consider other reasl world factors here. I know this may be difficult when you ahve no expereince in the field (doesn't sound like you do, or you would recognize these issues immediately), but hear us out, please.

There are 2 groups here, patients and psychologists. I care about patients, but I care about my profession just as much. Market flooding drives down the value of services and limits jobs for new graduates. This IS problem in certain areas. Lowering standards decreases the probability of quality product. Why do this? Just to apease everyones dreams of becoming a psychologists? I dont think so! Just because you want to do something, doesn't mean you should always get a easy pass to getting into it. Standards should remain as high as possible in order to maxmize product quality. Very basic dictum that has been around for centuries. Whats the problem?
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This is absurd:

The APA is your governing body, not the university, thankfully
If the APA says a course is accredited (argosy) then your problem lies with the APA not the institution
If the Institution is not accredited and the student gains APA accreditation then the APA is saying they have every faith that this person is competent

If not - no license, no problem for you right?

Why argue against the courses, argue with the APA, i'm sure they will listen to you.

There are many checks in place to ensure competency to practice before a psychologist is ever allowed near a patient, you know this, so if they pass the accreditation processes then whats the problem?
 
baconfoil said:
This is absurd:

The APA is your governing body, not the university, thankfully
If the APA says a course is accredited (argosy) then your problem lies with the APA not the institution
If the Institution is not accredited and the student gains APA accreditation then the APA is saying they have every faith that this person is competent

If not - no license, no problem for you right?

Why argue against the courses, argue with the APA, i'm sure they will listen to you.

There are many checks in place to ensure competency to practice before a psychologist is ever allowed near a patient, you know this, so if they pass the accreditation processes then whats the problem?
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Please point out the absurd part. High Standards are absurd? Please elaborate. Im interested in this philosophy.

You are new arent you? The APA approves curriculum only. It has nothing to do with the admissions standards and does not evaluate quality of training. Its a bar for a minimim stardard. You get a accredited when you meet minimimun stardards that a programs need to function. I do not assume a person is competent because the APA accrdited there program. This would not very scientific of me, would it? And no, I do not always trust their judegment and the standards they set. Many in this profesion dont. I think the process should examine many more factors (ie. the pathetic match rate of their students, which actually says more about quality of its people than APA accredidation)
 
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erg923 said:
Please point out the absurd part. High Standards are absurd? Please elaborate. Im interested in this philosophy.

You are new arent you? The APA approves curriculum only. It has nothing to do with the admissions standards and does not evaluate quality of training. Its a bar for a minimim stardard. You get a accredited when you meet minimimun stardards that a programs need to function.
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so your university only meets the minimum standards?? wow, you must be disappointed
 
which I also guess means you are syaing that all state licences are minimum as well as the APA? this seems weird no? so how does anybody know what is a good standard or not? do you have any facts to back it up?
 
baconfoil said:
so your university only meets the minimum standards?? wow, you must be disappointed
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:laugh: Yes i am. However, my program far exceeds the averages in other areas (match, hours, awards, pubs) that the APA does not evaluate.

Anyway, you didnt really address my overarching point of taking into account pragmatic issues of supply/demand, market flooding (which lowers reimbursment slowly over time). Why are these not important in your mind? They will be when your in practice, believe me.
 
baconfoil said:
which I also guess means you are syaing that all state licences are minimum as well as the APA? this seems weird no? so how does anybody know what is a good standard or not? do you have any facts to back it up?
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Well yes, correct, thats a difficult question. I DONT KNOW. However, I think having short cut programs where standards are enormously lower than traditional university based programs does not help high standards. Lowering standards leads to lower quality product (product=psychologist in this analogy). Obviously, this one is a no brainer from a probablity/statistical point of view. Are you telling me you disagree with this? If so, whats your logic/rationale?
 
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It has to be a joke. Its barely even coherent.

I repeat what I said in another thread...I think posts like this these just strengthen the arguments against professional school.
 
baconfoil said:
I didnt say wanted to I said did, and don't forget Mr Student, there was no psychology degree when psychology was invented
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Please, you supposedly have a master's in Organizational psychology. You're not a psychologist in the US and every first-year graduate student has more supervised clinical experience than you.

If you adore the UK so much then just stay there. We'll all be glad you did :)

Your thought process:
1. You acknowledge the education system is different and look for opinions on how you can gain admission into a PhD program
2. You are now flabbergasted and at some level insulted that it IS different and that online schools carry a stigma in the US.
 
nononora said:
Please, you supposedly have a master's in Organizational psychology. You're not a psychologist in the US and every first-year graduate student has more supervised clinical experience than you.

If you adore the UK so much then just stay there. We'll all be glad you did :)

Your thought process:
1. You acknowledge the education system is different and look for opinions on how you can gain admission into a PhD program
2. You are now flabbergasted and at some level insulted that it IS different and that online schools carry a stigma in the US.
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facts, where are the facts i thought you were scientists?
 
Facts? Your posts are generally so uncomprehensible that no one knows what "facts" your even asking for. Take your time, lower your emotional level, and write coherently and succinctly. If you want some facts on something, ask explicitly what you wanna know or see, and people will be more than happy to provide it. However, I'm not gonna provide empirical citations for the notion that lowering standards for entry into a field will lead to lower quality product? This is a basic dictum that is widely accpted in psychology, marketing, economics, etc for hundreds of years. Why is that so incomphrensibleto you?

Also, you made a comment earllier about "Why argue against the courses, argue with the APA" I really dont have a clue what you're talking about here. This discussion was never about courses, never mentioned courses, and I never mentioned any courses that I disagree with.
 
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baconfoil said:
This is absurd:

There are many checks in place to ensure competency to practice before a psychologist is ever allowed near a patient, you know this, so if they pass the accreditation processes then whats the problem?
Click to expand...


Ever allowed near a patient?? If you're suggesting that only licensed psychologist are "allowed near a patient" you are quite wrong... Many programs have students see patients starting in their first or second year. Thereby the checks in place may only be admission into the program.
 
As a parent of an Argosy Tampa PsyD student I can tell you that our daughter going to Argosy has been a nightmare for our entire family. You can review a lawsuit filed with Scott Mager, at www.magerlawyers.com. Other students are trying to organize a class action lawsuit. You can contact them at argosytampa.blogspot.com or contact Scott Mager's office directly in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. He is one of the few lawyers with expertise in handling student v for-profit school cases. I sincerely hope you don't get treated the way our daughter and family have been treated by Argosy! The issue for our daughter wasn't other students or a lack of seriousness about the program by students. It was the administration and selective faculty.:(

ExpressYourself said:
When I was in undergrad, my professors told me that Argosy was a good school? I'm about to be a second year Psy.D student at chicago's Argosy University, but I've been reading comments about how it's a "diploma mill," how it's a place for rejects to seek a piece of paper certifying them in the clinical psychology field, how some people think they're "too smart" for such a school, how they just want your money and don't give a care about your actual abilities, etc. Has anyone actually attended Argosy or are you just basing things on what you hear? Will getting my degree from there really hinder me in the job market? What's interesting though is that our clinical director said that the school is purposely being tough on the students, so they can earn a "better reputation and show that their students are highly intelligent." I don't know what he meant by that, or if he's implying that the school really does have a bad reputation.

I find all of my classmates to be competent and bright (certainly not the average joe that is just trying to find the easy way out), and we feel that the program is intense enough. Most of our professors are Ph.D's as well, and it certainly isn't a blow-off program. Someone said that professional schools don't match well with internship sites, but a girl did get an internship at Yale University. She's the first Psy.D student they ever had.


Any information would be appreciated. I just hope I didn't make the wrong decision by going to this school.


I made the mistake of only applying to 4 grad schools during undergrad (2 Psy.D's, and 2 Ph.D's). I got rejected by the Ph.D programs, but I had a 3.8 GPA, Gre scores in the 1200's range, and some clinical/research experience. I'm thinking about maybe stopping at my master's degree at Argosy, and re-applying to get a Ph.D again.
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kinda sounds like high school, like the argosy pta. Interesting concept that says alot more than you might think. My parents stopped being that involved years ago.....;)
 
I'm no fan of Argosy, but the language and tone of that lawsuit is a little... off-putting.
 
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I'm pretty sure the language and tone of most lawsuits is pretty off-putting.

It seems pretty clear that the practicum supervisors were doing unethical and unprofessional things and asking/instructing Argosy students to do the same. It's also pretty clear that at least some of the faculty knew this was happening and did nothing about it. :S There are other things that aren't as clear, but even that on its own is pretty worrying.
 
thewesternsky said:
I'm pretty sure the language and tone of most lawsuits is pretty off-putting.

It seems pretty clear that the practicum supervisors were doing unethical and unprofessional things and asking/instructing Argosy students to do the same. It's also pretty clear that at least some of the faculty knew this was happening and did nothing about it. :S There are other things that aren't as clear, but even that on its own is pretty worrying.
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Yeah, pretty much the style used in lawsuits. Nasty, right? That's why I got out of the field.:eek: It may be that this is all as alleged in the complaint. But bear in mind that there are always two sides to every story. I'd wonder what the defendant's answer to the complaint looks like...
 
Oh, wow, I had no idea! Good thing I never wanted to be a lawyer.
 
I'm glad I'm not the only one who had that reaction to the writing style of the filing. Holy crap! It seemed unprofessional, but if that's how lawyers operate then who am I to judge?

I too am curious what Argosy's response is to this. It certainly sounds like unethical behavior took place on the part of the faculty and practicum supervisor. But of course one needs both sides of the argument.

Regardless, this can't be good press for Argosy.
 
Cosmo75 said:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who had that reaction to the writing style of the filing. Holy crap! It seemed unprofessional, but if that's how lawyers operate then who am I to judge?

I too am curious what Argosy's response is to this. It certainly sounds like unethical behavior took place on the part of the faculty and practicum supervisor. But of course one needs both sides of the argument.

Regardless, this can't be good press for Argosy.
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No, definitely not good press for Argosy. I used to be a lawyer handling employment disputes quite similar to this kind of case -- and I'd almost forgotten how nasty and aggressive you have to be as a litigator. Reading this complaint brought it all back -- why I hated it.

Of course, my reaction has nothing to do with the merits of the suit. It sure sounds like something's out of whack at Argosy Tampa. I'm glad I've never experienced anything like this at my school.
 
psychmama said:
Of course, my reaction has nothing to do with the merits of the suit. It sure sounds like something's out of whack at Argosy Tampa. I'm glad I've never experienced anything like this at my school.
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I met two Argosy-Tampa students at a conference last year and they seemed to share similar feelings about the program (they liked their faculty, but had issues with the administration). It should be noted that having issues with the administration is far from an anomoly, though the allegations in this case definitely fall outside of what I'd consider "normal" gripes.
 
cara susanna said:
Oh, wow, I had no idea! Good thing I never wanted to be a lawyer.
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To echo her words, thank God I'm going into psychology. I could never feel good about myself making a living out of writing that day in and day out.

As for the debate here, I have a friend who goes to the Chicago School for his PsyD and has similar qualms about his administration. Like many have said, it's not uncommon for schools to operate this way... whether or not it is "within the norm" I'm not sure, but I wouldn't want to go to a school with this type of ethics.
 
I got to the rest of the lawsuit (it's a long read, sorry!) and this does sound bad. Assuming that the allegations are true, what happened is pretty horrible.
 
Can someone give a cliff notes version for those of us who won't have time to read the whole thing?
 
Argosy PsyD student found out her practicum site was administering photocopied assessments, felt that was wrong, reported it, got no results, continued to report it, was accused of poor performance and immaturity despite previously glowing evaluations, given a review by biased faculty members despite constant requests to have an impartial committee, and was eventually expelled on what seems to be a trumped up charge.

Hopefully that's a good enough summary.
 
cara susanna said:
Argosy PsyD student found out her practicum site was administering photocopied assessments, felt that was wrong, reported it, got no results, continued to report it, was accused of poor performance and immaturity despite previously glowing evaluations, given a review by biased faculty members despite constant requests to have an impartial committee, and was eventually expelled on what seems to be a trumped up charge.

Hopefully that's a good enough summary.
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Having read it too... that's a pretty accurate summary of the plaintiffs case against Argosy. Either way she is screwed, she will likely never be able to pursue a career in psychology because of this incident. After all, who wants an ethical psychologist?!?

Sorry I am dripping with sarcasm this morning... stupid master's thesis refuses to write itself... I will be happier when it's all done.

Mark
 
Markp said:
Having read it too... that's a pretty accurate summary of the plaintiffs case against Argosy. Either way she is screwed, she will likely never be able to pursue a career in psychology because of this incident. After all, who wants an ethical psychologist?!?
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We can rail against the lack of ethics in our politicians (a favorite target), but yet here we are again admitting that doing the RIGHT thing in psychology will just as likely bar you from a career in the profession.

How can things ever improve/change if doing so comes at the cost of one's career?
 
psychwhy said:
We can rail against the lack of ethics in our politicians (a favorite target), but yet here we are again admitting that doing the RIGHT thing in psychology will just as likely bar you from a career in the profession.

How can things ever improve/change if doing so comes at the cost of one's career?
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Did you read the rest of his post? He was being sarcastic.
 
Ignore the imbecilic posts in opposition of professional schools. The fact is that a similar mindset that opposes expansion of the psychology profession today is the same narrow rigidness that proclaimed that universal education for all children would be harmful. Its the same mindset that believed in separation and then seperate but equal. Its the same mindset that opposed the GI Bill in the 1940s. This has been discussed ad naseum, so I will end my posting with this question to the phds who oppose professional schools: Many phds do not want to practice or work with actual clients - is it not better to have more highly trained psyds than less trained bachelor or master level practitioners?

erg923 said:
Please point out the absurd part. High Standards are absurd? Please elaborate. Im interested in this philosophy.

You are new arent you? The APA approves curriculum only. It has nothing to do with the admissions standards and does not evaluate quality of training. Its a bar for a minimim stardard. You get a accredited when you meet minimimun stardards that a programs need to function. I do not assume a person is competent because the APA accrdited there program. This would not very scientific of me, would it? And no, I do not always trust their judegment and the standards they set. Many in this profesion dont. I think the process should examine many more factors (ie. the pathetic match rate of their students, which actually says more about quality of its people than APA accredidation)
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aagman01 said:
Many phds do not want to practice or work with actual clients - is it not better to have more highly trained psyds than less trained bachelor or master level practitioners?
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What are you basing this on? The statistics do not bear this out at all. Its the other way around actually. Most ph.ds go into practice.

Moreover, noone is opposed to education of the people and it is certainly nothing like Jim Crow laws. Thats ludicrous and im not sure how one would come to that conclusion. Its simply based on supply-demand factors. Output vs market demands, thats all. Its not personal. Its business. This is the way of the world.
 
I will alter my question:

Assuming that the bulk of individuals in psyd programs want to get involved in practitioner-orientated careers
+
assuming that such individuals would not enroll in phd programs otherwise + assuming that they would earn solely a masters degree in a related helping profession (i.e. counseling, clinical social work) before getting involved in counseling/mental health

Would phd people who seem to hate the professional schools rather individuals get less training (by only getting a masters degree)? Would that really be best for the general population? Or are you putting your personal interest, of upholding the elitism of the traditional terminology of the (phd) psychologist to further your own personal interests (rather than what is best in terms of care for the general population)?



erg923 said:
What are you basing this on? The statistics do not bear this out at all. Its the other way around actually. Most ph.ds go into practice.

Moreover, noone is opposed to education of the people and it is certainly nothing like Jim Crow laws. Thats ludicrous and im not sure how one would come to that conclusion. Its simply based on supply-demand factors. Output vs market demands, thats all. Its not personal. Its business. This is the way of the world.
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