Engineering PhD as part of MD/PhD

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
M

Marquis_Phoenix

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
May 6, 2006
Messages
95
Reaction score
0
Suppose that your undergraduate was not in engineering nor in the physical sciences. How difficult will it be to get into an engineering PhD program along with your MD?

Even right now at the undergraduate level, it seems like engineers are in their own clique. While I have my pick of labs on the biological side of things, biomedical or biological engineering professors seem unwilling to take on non-engineering students. This obviously makes it very difficult to get the appropriate letters of recommendation to prove your competency to an engineering PhD program?

Is it too late to get involved in engineering? Would the only way to get into this network be to do an undergraduate in engineering? Or is there flexibility once you get into a MD program, and have some credibility, in terms of engaging in engineering research or gaining entry into a biomedical engineering program?

I don't want to be merely the clinical trials collaborator of an engineering lab doing the cutting-edge innovation.
Members don't see this ad.
 
It totally depends on the Bioengineering PhD program and the MD/PhD program at that school. Some MD/PhD programs don't allow BE PhDs at all. Others take them quite rarely and only the superstars. I think that nationally it's probably more competitive than getting a MD/PhD spot in a cell/molecular biology type of graduate program. Some BE PhD programs will only take students of certain undergrads and will still require GREs of the MD/PhD students even if none of the other departments do. Others are more fliexible.

I had strongly considered joining the Bioengineering PhD program here. One nice thing about where I am is that once you're a student here you can really switch into whatever you want. I would have no chance applying as a BE MD/PhD, but it was no problem for me to switch. However, I did not follow through for numerous reasons. The biggest reason was the BE program would have added at least a year of coursework to my PhD. Another is because my advisor in my lab has seen students come through in both BE and Biophysics, and he prefers to have Biophysics students because the graduate program tended to give them less hassle in numerous ways (coursework requirements, thesis requirements, funding, etc).

I am in a lab that is half Bioengineers and half others, and I do research that is very Bioengineering oriented. I think it was a fine decision for me. I always encourage those who are thinking along a more non-traditional path that it might be worth it to work in a lab in your area of interest and be in a grad group that is very MD/PhD friendly. This saves one a lot of headaches down the road.
 
Doing an engineering graduate degree without an engineering ugrad is difficult. There are a number of classes that are required. From my alma mater, these are the basic courses for a MS/PhD in Chem Eng (not BioEng, but there is overlap):

* ChEN507 - Applied Mathematics in Chemical Engineering
* ChEN509 - Advanced Chemical Engineering Thermodynamics
* ChEN516 - Transport Phenomena
* ChEN518 - Reaction Kinetics and Catalysis

ChEN507 is all about non-linear differential equations, so you'd need to take calc 1-3 and basic diff eq. Depending on your undergrad major, you'd also need to take thermodynamics, fluids, and heat transfer to qualify for the rest. The added year Neuronix talked about is pretty accurate for the non-eng ugrad/eng PhDs I've known. It is only marginally less of a pain when switching between eng fields (e.g. ChEN -> ME)

When you're deciding what degree to pursue, you'd have to see the school's actual course catalog and see what degree prerequisites there are for non-eng ugrads. I'd also second the advice about finding a supportive lab - that is one thing that nobody thinks of, but will make your experience go from fun, enjoyable, and productive, to the worst grind of your life.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
So in terms of courses, generally speaking, aside from the mathematics (multivariable, differential equations, applied differential equations), it'd just be physics courses that I'd need?
 
It would depend on the program's requirements. If BioEng requires physics beyond the standard year pre-meds need, then yes.
 
I'm in the BCM/Rice Bioengineering Program, and at least for our program there is no need to have an undergraduate engineering degree. You need a strong enough grasp of math to pass an upper level math/stat course, but beyond that the diversity in coursework is such that you can shy away from more 'hard core' engineering classes. While a background in engineering can ease the transition into a lab, a lot of people from our program have completed the engineering phd without an engineering background.
 
I'm going into a Biomedical Engineering PhD in an MSTP, and did my undergrad in BE.

One comment I would add is that Biomedical Engineering is a hugely broad field and it could mean anything from drug delivery, to imaging, to prosthetics, to tissue engineering, biomechanics, instrumentation, or mechanical device based stuff, etc. So the courses you would need and the ease of transferring would largely depend on what area you are looking at.

Also, I would agree you are going to probably have to beef up your math/physics regardless of your path but different fields require other background as well. For example if you want to go into imaging you need to start with some solid electromagnatism, fourier transform, DiffEq, and probably some programing, just as a few exaples. But if you were looking more at drug delivery or biomechanics some basic materials classes or dynamic physics respectively might get you on your way.

Hope that helped. Good luck!! :)
 
Hi, Im just wandering around forums and i saw this thread, but didnt read it..... so if its already been posted, my bad.

I just wanted to give everyone a heads up about the USMLE. Theres a 7 year time limit for completion of all three Steps of the USMLE. MD,PhD students can sometimes get exemption from this time limit (since it takes 7-9 years to get an MD,PhD...add on 2 years of postgraduate training and you've got a problem). Howver, grad students in engeneering MIGHT NOT get exempt from the rule.

See the following link, scroll down to the MD/PhD section, and read the second bullet point.
http://www.usmle.org/General_Information/bulletin/2007/eligibility.html
 
howelljolly said:
Hi, Im just wandering around forums and i saw this thread, but didnt read it..... so if its already been posted, my bad.
Click to expand...

This topic has been discussed many times in other threads, but I will address it again here.

I just wanted to give everyone a heads up about the USMLE. Theres a 7 year time limit for completion of all three Steps of the USMLE.
Click to expand...

This depends on the state. See this list:

http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_requirementschart.html

Howver, grad students in engeneering MIGHT NOT get exempt from the rule.
See the following link, scroll down to the MD/PhD section, and read the second bullet point.

http://www.usmle.org/General_Information/bulletin/2007/eligibility.html
Click to expand...

The rules are not up to the USMLE giving the exams, the rules are up the states giving licensing. It's not really relevant what the USMLE
"recommends", however these recommendations do not explicitly mention engineering and my guess is they would find bioengineering to be a more medically related PhD.
 
Marquis_Phoenix said:
So in terms of courses, generally speaking, aside from the mathematics (multivariable, differential equations, applied differential equations), it'd just be physics courses that I'd need?
Click to expand...

I think the engineers on the board will agree with me here -- there is quite a difference b/w engineering and "math & physics." So much of a traditional engineering curriculum (at any degree level) is based on problem solving skills developed over years, not just theory absorbed and forgotten in a DiffEQ course 4 semesters ago. It seems that many BioE programs have moved away from the "balls to the wall" approach to engineering, and have ventured into venues such as tissue engineering, cellular biology, etc. In this case, as others have mentioned, coming in from a non-engineering background is not as difficult, and might even give you a 'leg up' in some areas. It would be unwise, and unless you are exceptionally bright, impossible, to go from biology UG into a chemical engineering PhD program. The graduate level Thermo class RxnMan mentioned above would be extremely difficult even for math PhD students. It's more than just math.

Also, many PhD programs will not allow you to enroll unless you have an UG engineering degree. In fact, my ChemE graduate department would not allow you to enroll unless you had a ChemE BS or a chemical-physics MS/PhD. Students with a BS in chemistry were allowed a one-year probationary enrollment, and had to have a 3.5 GPA. Mechanical Engineering was much the same way.

Howver, grad students in engeneering MIGHT NOT get exempt from the rule. See the following link, scroll down to the MD/PhD section, and read the second bullet point.
Click to expand...

How is it that I have never heard of this till now? Has this caused anyone any problems?
 
I'm a second year MD/PhD student at Dartmouth and I'm doing my Phd in BME. I was a physics major and chem minor in undergrad. My roommate (another second year MD/PhD student) just transfered into the engineering PhD program from the molecular and cell bio grad program. He was a chem major in undergrad. There is a first year MD/PhD student here who will be doing her PhD in physics. There are some schools that will allow you quite a bit of freedom for the PhD portion of your training. Some engineering grad programs are quite accepting of non-engineers for their graduate programs (I'm told that almost half of the people doing a PhD in BME at Dartmouth did their undergrads in something other than BME -- physics and molecular bio/biochem are well-represented in the grad program here.) Dartmouth actively tries to bring people from non-engineering backgrounds into BME because they think it's a good way to bring different experiences and knowledge bases to bear on engineering problems.

So, although Dartmouth is a specific case, it shows you that non-engineers can do grad programs in engineering and that many MD/PhD programs will allow you to pursue the research you want. If you want more info, let me know.
 
JETER said:
How is it that I have never heard of this till now? Has this caused anyone any problems?
Click to expand...

I hear the occasional story of someone having to retake and pass Step I before their internship to get their medical licenses. That would really suck. It's not a huge deal I guess, but would be really really lame to have happen.
 
howelljolly said:
Hi, Im just wandering around forums and i saw this thread, but didnt read it..... so if its already been posted, my bad.

I just wanted to give everyone a heads up about the USMLE. Theres a 7 year time limit for completion of all three Steps of the USMLE. MD,PhD students can sometimes get exemption from this time limit (since it takes 7-9 years to get an MD,PhD...add on 2 years of postgraduate training and you've got a problem). Howver, grad students in engeneering MIGHT NOT get exempt from the rule.

See the following link, scroll down to the MD/PhD section, and read the second bullet point.
http://www.usmle.org/General_Information/bulletin/2007/eligibility.html
Click to expand...


Yes, there's a 7-year rule, but everyone I know who has gone past 7 (and YES at Pitt there are many, especially bioengineers..) have gotten the exemption. Basically a 4yr PhD would fit. Also remember that the USMLE is changing in the future, with the possibility of combining Steps 1 and 2 into a single exam taken during MS3. This will also affect anyone just starting out...
 
I am currently in the process of writing up my thesis for my PhD in Chemical Engineering at NCSU and am considering to attempt to enter into the medical field. Does anyone have any knowledge on the other direction, entering into an MD program and having a ChemE PhD?
 
I am a little confused about whether you are talking about just doing a PhD in BME or doing your PhD as part of an MD/PhD program. If you are talking about the later (which I assume you are), there are definitely a lot of students at programs all over the country who are not coming from engineering backgrounds. This makes sense and I got the impression the BME programs expect this, as you are also interested in medicine.

In my experience as a biochemistry major, almost every BME program I talked to liked the fact that I wasn't an engineering major. As someone said above, BME is extremely broad these days, and in my opinion there is a lot of work that goes under the auspicies of BME simply because it doesn't really fit into anything else (ie there are a lot of people doing tissue engineering who are stem cell biologists that do little/no work with materials). Also, I think for a lot of areas of BME, the traditional type of work that was done 25 years ago has shifted heavily toward cell-biology type things.

Anyway, my impression is that as long as you are not necessarily trying to get into a hardcore engineering type project, but more of a applied biological one, then you are at not disadvantage not having studied engineering (in fact you could argue you have an advantage) and none of the BME programs I talked to are biased at all against you.
 
MEChEPhD said:
I am currently in the process of writing up my thesis for my PhD in Chemical Engineering at NCSU and am considering to attempt to enter into the medical field. Does anyone have any knowledge on the other direction, entering into an MD program and having a ChemE PhD?
Click to expand...

Someone in our program recently accomplished a similar switch. Unfortunately, you do get most of the downsides of MSTP (in school forever) without the benefit (tuition), but if you're dedicated to academic medicine it's definitely a viable path. There are many options for people with engineering and medical backgrounds - during your medical fellowship or in a postdoc you can find a mentor who will allow you to begin figuring out how to combine these two traditionally disparate fields.

It's definitely worth pursuing further, ask your mentors for more advice.
 
I'm a pre-pharmacy student getting into my first professional year this year. I actually wanted to do pre-med, but due to the lack of decisiveness, I decided to stay in pharmacy and am thinking about pursuing a masters in chemical engineering. I'm interested in knowing more about the MD/PhD degree in engineering: how are you able to use both degrees in your career?
 
I would say that the real question starts with:

Why do you want an engineering PhD?

Engineering is a profession, not just an area of study. As such, the degree traditionally is accompanied by an understood base of knowledge in math and science. For BME, this typically includes calc 1-3, diffEQ, linear alg, computer programing, signals and systems, transport phenomena, thermo, physics 1 and 2 with calculus, premed chems, phys chem, bio, circuits, biomaterials, a senior design course that usually includes a substantial introduction to FDA approval of medical devices, and courses that develop your ability to approach modeling and problem solving in the biological realm, and more courses.

As many have pointed out, if you want to be in a lab that does more quantitative life science research or uses unique technological tools to facilitate your research, you don't really need an engineering degree. If you feel like you need a particular class from BME to round out your graduate education, you probably can take it without having to do BME and fulfill all the reqs.

If you want an engineering degree so that you can design and develop technologies and learn engineering problem solving tools and ultimately work as an engineer in academia or industry, then you can find probably find a program that will let you do BME. Though, there are plenty of aspects of tech development you can do without an engineering degree too...

So what is it you're looking for?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

fishs
Psych PhD MD/PhD
Replies
2
Views
665
Neuronix
Neuronix
D
2023-2024 MD/PhD Likely Matriculation
Replies
1
Views
649
ddhopeful
D
Bronski
MD/PhD Prospects? Low scores, but a lot of experience.
Replies
5
Views
628
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
The Cinnabon
MD/PhD (SSH) Psychiatry vs. Clinical Psychology PhD
Replies
2
Views
801
dl2dp2
D
A
*** 2023-2024 MD/PhD Acceptances ***
2 3
Replies
140
Views
51K
jcm04
J
Top