Issues about DO degree that's been on my mind....

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ocwaveoc

ocwaveoc

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Just some random stuff here....

1) Why do so few DOs use OMM? (some may argue that more than the stats indicate use OMM due to insurance issues etc...but, if OMM is the one of the defining differences between MDs and DOs, I'd think that more would use OMM) I thought of some reasons
* Perhaps most DO students/grads really wanted to goto MD schools and settled on DO schools just to become physicians. After all, a physician is a physician regardless of the letters after one's name. So, the DO students never really had strong interest in OMM anyway....hmm..can this be it?
* Perhaps, OMM really doesn't work in more cases than say pharmacological methods to deal with medical issues. So, students learn it but since it doesn't really work as well unless you are very good at it they end up not using it....could this be one of the reasons?
* Perhaps, it works well if done correctly. But, it's just not taught in ways that encourages/shows the beauty of OMM. I've heard from an OMM specialist that the students don't really see how it works during the 1st 2 yrs when they learn it and rarely get to see it in action (at least not a lot) even in the 3rd and 4th yr unless you do an OMM rotation.
* Perhaps the outcome from OMM txs are not as apparent as say the effects you get from taking meds....could this be the reason why not many use OMM?

I get the feeling the real reason (along with insurance reimbursement issues) is a some combination of some or all of the above.

2) I know why I initially applied to DO schools and the reason was a logical one. But, when I asked myself why someone who's just finishing up a 4 yr college degree without a lot of medical background be interested in a DO degree despite the well known discrimination against DOs by some MDs, I couldn't understand their interest in a DO degree. I know some buy into the "holistic" approach the DO schools advertise. But, I'd think that those people are the minorities of the DO applicants. I'm sure many applicants have had good experiences with DOs and became interested in the degree. But, what is interesting is that for some reason, most of the (note that I said MOST, not ALL) DO applicants have stats significantly lower than typical MD matriculants.

What I really think is that since most with lower stats know they have low chance of an MD admission, they settle for a DO degree. Again, there are, I'm sure who even chose a DO school over an MD school. But, I bet you those are a small/tiny exceptions. I bet that 75% of DO applicants, if given a MD acceptance, they'd forego with the DO acceptance and go the MD route. You may argue with me on this. But, it is strange that most people gung ho about DO school are the ones with low stats who likely couldn't get into an MD school (again not ALL, I'm sure. I'm sure some of you have stats good enough for MD schools and preferred DO over MD).

But, it is unfortunate that there is a "stigma" against DOs that may make some DO applicants feel they'd prefer an MD degree since the didactic is pretty much the same.....it's just the matter of the letters at the end of the name....and.......

3) The clinical years during the 3rd and 4th yr in DO school. From what I hear, many allo residencies are a bit wary of DO students because the consistency in the quality of education during the rotation years is much more varied than the MD school 3rd and 4th year rotations. So perhaps, places like PCOM and CCOM have good rep due to solid rotation sites and controlled quality of rotation experience compared to some others. I've heard that this aspect of DO education is thought by the MD world as being significantly inferior to the MD counterpart. This isn't my opinion. This was the opinion of an MD residency director.

4) Except for 1 MD I spoke to, I'd say all others didn't have the best opinions about the DO degree. Knowing this I wondered if I became a DO, how I'd feel working with MDs.

I bring these pts up because I really feel that it's unfortunate the MD and DO thing is the way it is. It's unwarranted. A good physician is a good physician no matter what the degree. But, in our world, there are pecking orders, prejudices and other issues. I mean, even in the MD world there are pecking orders.....family med physicians are looked down upon by way the orthopods......physical medicine docs are looked down upon by the neuro surgeons etc...... I've been told about this by numerous MDs. It's too bad. But, what I can control is getting a good education, working hard and servicing my patients the best way I can.

I too have chosen the MD route. Easier obtaining residencies (don't need to feel like I need to take 2 licensing exams!), less discrimination and the perception by the residency directors that my schools' clinical rotation experiences were likely superior to the DO counterparts are the reason I chose to go MD over DO. I wished there weren't such issues because I really wanted to stay in Socal where my DO acceptance was.
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the issues you brought up have been on most every one of our minds.
in fact, if i happen to score a 32 or higher on the upcoming MCAT, im gonna shoot for MD schools (while still applying DO).
if i am still super interested in learning OMM, Ill take CME credits and learn it that way.
but there is still a lot to be said about the class of DO students vs a class of MD students, in terms of personalities and, apparently--hotness of females...

EDIT (6/4/08): It has been 3months since I made this post. I don't really care as much about DO vs MD as I once did. I feel that the most important factor will be the individual school and how I match with it. I know that is the right thing to say...but now I know its right cause I truly believe what I'm saying.
 
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I guess I fall into the "minority" you are describing. I've applied to both MD and DO programs and actually have numerous MD and DO acceptances. 34S/3.9 (MCAT/GPA) for reference.

I chose to apply to DO programs because I'm genuinely drawn to the holistic approach they advertise. I actually got into an argument with one of my MD interviewers (I won't mention which school) that insisted medicine is really only about the science. In all of my DO interviews, everyone seemed more interested in my life experiences and my personal beliefs. In the end I couldn't care less, if I decide to go DO, that some MDs may look down on me.

Perhaps it's just my personal experiences, as I come from a poor background and am the first in my family to obtain a college degree. I'm going to go where I feel the most comfortable regardless of the letters attached to the degree. Experience has shown me that no matter what I want in life, if I work diligently it is always obtainable. Therefore, no matter where I go to school my success as a doctor will largely be influenced by the amount of effort I put forth. As cliche as it may sound, for me, it really will come down to what "feels" the best.:)
 
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I'm really not concerned with any of these things. I took a DO acceptance I felt good about and canceled everything else, including applications to MD schools I interviewed at before.

Even if what you're asying is 100-percent accurate, I don't feel like I need to depend on my school to make my career. I'm going to work hard and do it myself. I know plenty of DO's who have made it into, and through competitive residency programs, and these are older guys who did it when it when DO's were much less mainstream than they are now. I also know MD's who have told me it doesn't matter. MD's from places like Stanford and UT-Southwestern. One guy who was an oncologist/prof at UPenn before taking a position with the NIH. I also know people who are in MD schools that I am a hell of a lot smarter than. I'm just not concerned with this one bit, because I am confident that, when the time comes, I will be evaluated on my own merits, and I can go toe-to-toe with just about any MD student.

As for why a lot of DO's don't use OMM... Some don't have time, some don't believe in it, some aren't comfortable using it, and in some practices, there is no practical application of it. This also does not worry me. I'm a long way from being concerned with how much I will use OMM. At the same time, it will be nice to know.
 
TexasTriathlete said:
As for why a lot of DO's don't use OMM... Some don't have time, some don't believe in it, some aren't comfortable using it, and in some practices, there is no practical application of it. This also does not worry me. I'm a long way from being concerned with how much I will use OMM. At the same time, it will be nice to know.
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Another possibility why OMM isn't used widely may be that prescribing medications entails knowledge of biochemical issues, assessing pt's signs and symptoms and using other diagnostic tools (ie MRI) while using OMM appears to me that one actually needs some sort of physical skill in addition to the medical knowledge. Not everyone can be good with their hands as the good OMM practitioners. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why not many DOs use OMM. However, I have a feeling this reason is a very minor reason.
 
Okay so this may make me sound like a jerk and t-funk will definitely laugh at me ;), but one thing that holds true for DOs and MDs is that neither understands that wary and weary are not the same word. :beat:
 
I fully believe in soft-tissue manipulation. I use it on myself, on my clients, and I have used it on my former athletes, some of whom are now playing in the NBA. It is absolutely essential to athletes, and I am looking forward to learning more about it. There is a lot more to OMM, and I don't know anything about most of it. I will not even think about trying to evaluate its efficacy until I learn a lot more.
 
ocwaveoc said:
Just some random stuff here....

1) Why do so few DOs use OMM? (some may argue that more than the stats indicate use OMM due to insurance issues etc...but, if OMM is the one of the defining differences between MDs and DOs, I'd think that more would use OMM) I thought of some reasons
* Perhaps most DO students/grads really wanted to goto MD schools and settled on DO schools just to become physicians. After all, a physician is a physician regardless of the letters after one's name. So, the DO students never really had strong interest in OMM anyway....hmm..can this be it?
* Perhaps, OMM really doesn't work in more cases than say pharmacological methods to deal with medical issues. So, students learn it but since it doesn't really work as well unless you are very good at it they end up not using it....could this be one of the reasons?
* Perhaps, it works well if done correctly. But, it's just not taught in ways that encourages/shows the beauty of OMM. I've heard from an OMM specialist that the students don't really see how it works during the 1st 2 yrs when they learn it and rarely get to see it in action (at least not a lot) even in the 3rd and 4th yr unless you do an OMM rotation.
* Perhaps the outcome from OMM txs are not as apparent as say the effects you get from taking meds....could this be the reason why not many use OMM?

I get the feeling the real reason (along with insurance reimbursement issues) is a some combination of some or all of the above.

2) I know why I initially applied to DO schools and the reason was a logical one. But, when I asked myself why someone who's just finishing up a 4 yr college degree without a lot of medical background be interested in a DO degree despite the well known discrimination against DOs by some MDs, I couldn't understand their interest in a DO degree. I know some buy into the "holistic" approach the DO schools advertise. But, I'd think that those people are the minorities of the DO applicants. I'm sure many applicants have had good experiences with DOs and became interested in the degree. But, what is interesting is that for some reason, most of the (note that I said MOST, not ALL) DO applicants have stats significantly lower than typical MD matriculants.

What I really think is that since most with lower stats know they have low chance of an MD admission, they settle for a DO degree. Again, there are, I'm sure who even chose a DO school over an MD school. But, I bet you those are a small/tiny exceptions. I bet that 75% of DO applicants, if given a MD acceptance, they'd forego with the DO acceptance and go the MD route. You may argue with me on this. But, it is strange that most people gung ho about DO school are the ones with low stats who likely couldn't get into an MD school (again not ALL, I'm sure. I'm sure some of you have stats good enough for MD schools and preferred DO over MD).

But, it is unfortunate that there is a "stigma" against DOs that may make some DO applicants feel they'd prefer an MD degree since the didactic is pretty much the same.....it's just the matter of the letters at the end of the name....and.......

3) The clinical years during the 3rd and 4th yr in DO school. From what I hear, many allo residencies are a bit weary about DO students because the consistency in the quality of education during the rotation years is much more varied than the MD school 3rd and 4th year rotations. So perhaps, places like PCOM and CCOM have good rep due to solid rotation sites and controlled quality of rotation experience compared to some others. I've heard that this aspect of DO education is thought by the MD world as being significantly inferior to the MD counterpart. This isn't my opinion. This was the opinion of an MD residency director.

4) Except for 1 MD I spoke to, I'd say all others didn't have the best opinions about the DO degree. Knowing this I wondered if I became a DO, how I'd feel working with MDs.

I bring these pts up because I really feel that it's unfortunate the MD and DO thing is the way it is. It's unwarranted. A good physician is a good physician no matter what the degree. But, in our world, there are pecking orders, prejudices and other issues. I mean, even in the MD world there are pecking orders.....family med physicians are looked down upon by way the orthopods......physical medicine docs are looked down upon by the neuro surgeons etc...... I've been told about this by numerous MDs. It's too bad. But, what I can control is getting a good education, working hard and servicing my patients the best way I can.

I too have chosen the MD route. Easier obtaining residencies (don't need to feel like I need to take 2 licensing exams!), less discrimination and the perception by the residency directors that my schools' clinical rotation experiences were likely superior to the DO counterparts are the reason I chose to go MD over DO. I wished there weren't such issues because I really wanted to stay in Socal where my DO acceptance was.
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The problem is that the DO degree was never sold properly to the American public and the difference in treatment isn't enough for the public to think there is a difference. Many patients seeing DO's may not even know that that is the degree the doctor has.

Another problem is that the DO degree is up against houseMD, WebMD, etc.. and a media that views the only physicians in this country is MD. When Newsweek did a story on a doctor in Iraq who was a hero the physician was a DO but, put hero MD on the cover because that is what sells.

In terms of inferior education, I don't think that that is the case. The DO education is on par with any MD school in the country. If it that was not the case we would not be legal equivelents. I have friends in allopathic schools and we use the same books and cover all the same material in the same depth except in DO school you learn OMM. At NYCOM we have rotations at sites with many other MD schools, Miamonidies ( shared with Downstate medical school), North Shore-LIJ (shared with Einstein medical school), and Winthrop (shared with Stoney Brook medical school).

In terms of stats. Stats are not everything. There is no indication that applicants with higher stats will become better physicians. They will probably do better on the boards. But recent studies showed that step 1 of the boards have no bearing on what type of a clinition some one will become. This is one of the reasons that step one and two of the boards are supposed to merging into one exam. There are some residencies like surgery who are taking students in with great board scores but who are technically inept. The result is that it costs more money and time train these people. They may have the brains but you need to have the skill as well.

Some of the points you brought up were recently mentioned in an article in DO the magizine. Many students as well as physicians in the field are interested in having the degrees intials changed. Proposals span the spectrum of MD, MD,DO (meaning md,do as one title) MDO, DOM. They feel that by having MD somewhere in the name will increase the level of applicant applying to DO school, boost respect from the media, as well as the american public.
 
EEL08 said:
Okay so this may make me sound like a jerk and t-funk will definitely laugh at me ;), but one thing that holds true for DOs and MDs is that neither understands that wary and weary are not the same word. :beat:
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I have to say EEL, I am very glad that you brought this issue to my attention. I do think this it is very serious and someone needs to look into why there is this epidemic of pre-meds not knowing the difference between weary and wary. :laugh:
 
MrMattOglesby said:
im getting wary that threads like this will eventually make me weary =/
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:laugh::laugh::laugh: OKOK...haha...stop!! I'll correct it!! Sorry, English is my second language..although it's still not a good excuse. But, sometimes little nuances do confuse me a bit.
 
t-funk said:
I have to say EEL, I am very glad that you brought this issue to my attention. I do think this it is very serious and someone needs to look into why there is this epidemic of pre-meds not knowing the difference between weary and wary. :laugh:
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:oops: You know even one of my professors who is a DO MPH says weary instead of wary. Drove me crazy!!
 
prejudice exists in the world and is arguably part of human nature. you can choose to let it control you or you can choose rise above it. it's funny, though, that a lot of physicians don't choose to do the latter, despite being in one of the highest educated and most respected professions.
 
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MrMattOglesby said:
im getting wary that threads like this will eventually make me weary =/
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+1 After awhile it's just hard to come up with something that hasn't already been said.

Is there a slight stigma against DOs in some places amongst some people? Yes. A lot of people have stigmas against a lot of things.

A lot of students abandon OMM after they graduate. So, there are other DOs who use it every day. Personally I'm super excited to learn it.

DO schools tend to have lower stats than MD schools. Well yes, so what. I really do believe that DO schools do look at a lot more than stats too.

Whatever, all I know is that being a DO is going to be a million times better for me personally than trying to make magic occur every day on my mass spectrometer. I guess I just don't get it.
 
EEL08 said:
:oops: You know even one of my professors who is a DO MPH says weary instead of wary. Drove me crazy!!
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:laugh: I hope you didn't get too upset during class. :D
 
t-funk said:
:laugh: I hope you didn't get too upset during class. :D
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:laugh: I managed to rein it in. He wasn't counting off on me for being late to class every week (special circumstances) so I chose to forgive him for the weary/wary debacle. :p
 
ocwaveoc said:
Just some random stuff here....

1) Why do so few DOs use OMM? (some may argue that more than the stats indicate use OMM due to insurance issues etc...but, if OMM is the one of the defining differences between MDs and DOs, I'd think that more would use OMM) I thought of some reasons
* Perhaps most DO students/grads really wanted to goto MD schools and settled on DO schools just to become physicians. After all, a physician is a physician regardless of the letters after one's name. So, the DO students never really had strong interest in OMM anyway....hmm..can this be it?
* Perhaps, OMM really doesn't work in more cases than say pharmacological methods to deal with medical issues. So, students learn it but since it doesn't really work as well unless you are very good at it they end up not using it....could this be one of the reasons?
* Perhaps, it works well if done correctly. But, it's just not taught in ways that encourages/shows the beauty of OMM. I've heard from an OMM specialist that the students don't really see how it works during the 1st 2 yrs when they learn it and rarely get to see it in action (at least not a lot) even in the 3rd and 4th yr unless you do an OMM rotation.
* Perhaps the outcome from OMM txs are not as apparent as say the effects you get from taking meds....could this be the reason why not many use OMM?

I get the feeling the real reason (along with insurance reimbursement issues) is a some combination of some or all of the above.

2) I know why I initially applied to DO schools and the reason was a logical one. But, when I asked myself why someone who's just finishing up a 4 yr college degree without a lot of medical background be interested in a DO degree despite the well known discrimination against DOs by some MDs, I couldn't understand their interest in a DO degree. I know some buy into the "holistic" approach the DO schools advertise. But, I'd think that those people are the minorities of the DO applicants. I'm sure many applicants have had good experiences with DOs and became interested in the degree. But, what is interesting is that for some reason, most of the (note that I said MOST, not ALL) DO applicants have stats significantly lower than typical MD matriculants.

What I really think is that since most with lower stats know they have low chance of an MD admission, they settle for a DO degree. Again, there are, I'm sure who even chose a DO school over an MD school. But, I bet you those are a small/tiny exceptions. I bet that 75% of DO applicants, if given a MD acceptance, they'd forego with the DO acceptance and go the MD route. You may argue with me on this. But, it is strange that most people gung ho about DO school are the ones with low stats who likely couldn't get into an MD school (again not ALL, I'm sure. I'm sure some of you have stats good enough for MD schools and preferred DO over MD).

But, it is unfortunate that there is a "stigma" against DOs that may make some DO applicants feel they'd prefer an MD degree since the didactic is pretty much the same.....it's just the matter of the letters at the end of the name....and.......

3) The clinical years during the 3rd and 4th yr in DO school. From what I hear, many allo residencies are a bit wary of DO students because the consistency in the quality of education during the rotation years is much more varied than the MD school 3rd and 4th year rotations. So perhaps, places like PCOM and CCOM have good rep due to solid rotation sites and controlled quality of rotation experience compared to some others. I've heard that this aspect of DO education is thought by the MD world as being significantly inferior to the MD counterpart. This isn't my opinion. This was the opinion of an MD residency director.

4) Except for 1 MD I spoke to, I'd say all others didn't have the best opinions about the DO degree. Knowing this I wondered if I became a DO, how I'd feel working with MDs.

I bring these pts up because I really feel that it's unfortunate the MD and DO thing is the way it is. It's unwarranted. A good physician is a good physician no matter what the degree. But, in our world, there are pecking orders, prejudices and other issues. I mean, even in the MD world there are pecking orders.....family med physicians are looked down upon by way the orthopods......physical medicine docs are looked down upon by the neuro surgeons etc...... I've been told about this by numerous MDs. It's too bad. But, what I can control is getting a good education, working hard and servicing my patients the best way I can.

I too have chosen the MD route. Easier obtaining residencies (don't need to feel like I need to take 2 licensing exams!), less discrimination and the perception by the residency directors that my schools' clinical rotation experiences were likely superior to the DO counterparts are the reason I chose to go MD over DO. I wished there weren't such issues because I really wanted to stay in Socal where my DO acceptance was.
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I disagree with like 98% of what you are saying, but to each his own. Anyway ... I would like to know where your DO and MD acceptances were??
 
You know.... I just wrote a really long reply and answered tons of the points brought out in the original post. But.... I erased it. Why? Because I don't think most of it really even deserves a reply.

The only "stigma" exists in your head. If you believe that being a DO will make you inferior, then you will be inferior. If you aren't comfortable with being a DO, then don't go to a DO school-- that's just so darned easy.

But, don't come to me for all the answers about why people choose DO and why they don't use OMM all that much. You seem to have an opinion already. I could spend the time to educate you on these subjects....but in all honesty, it's a DO thing. You really wouldn't understand.
 
ocwaveoc said:
*Perhaps, OMM really doesn't work in more cases than say pharmacological methods to deal with medical issues. So, students learn it but since it doesn't really work as well unless you are very good at it they end up not using it....could this be one of the reasons?
* Perhaps, it works well if done correctly. But, it's just not taught in ways that encourages/shows the beauty of OMM. I've heard from an OMM specialist that the students don't really see how it works during the 1st 2 yrs when they learn it and rarely get to see it in action (at least not a lot) even in the 3rd and 4th yr unless you do an OMM rotation.
* Perhaps the outcome from OMM txs are not as apparent as say the effects you get from taking meds....could this be the reason why not many use OMM?

I get the feeling the real reason (along with insurance reimbursement issues) is a some combination of some or all of the above.
Click to expand...

I am glad you could enlighten us with all of your pre-med wisdom.

As far as why most DOs don't use more OMM, not sure. Maybe they just don't want to be OMM docs. Or, maybe it does not pertain to their practice enough for them to be experts. Just because a family doc might be able to analyze an MRI doesn't mean he should be the guy looking for brain lesions - that is why we have radiologists.

Does any of this mean that these DOs do not understand the beauty of OMM? Doubtful. If you showed up at a DO school you will see plenty of people treating each other to deal with the incessant back and neck pain that you will undoubtedly experience from studying. I guarantee you, at my school, during finals most students appreciate the beauty of OMM.

ocwaveoc said:
4) Except for 1 MD I spoke to, I'd say all others didn't have the best opinions about the DO degree. Knowing this I wondered if I became a DO, how I'd feel working with MDs.
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As a doctor, you will be judged professionally based on the quality of care you provide. There are some complications to having a DO degree, but it will not make you an inferior doctor - that is something you earn all on your own.



scpod said:
I could spend the time to educate you on these subjects....but in all honestly, it's a DO thing. You really wouldn't understand.
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Lets make this into a T-shirt.
 
DocBR said:
I am glad you could enlighten us with all of your pre-med wisdom.

As far as why most DOs don't use more OMM, not sure. Maybe they just don't want to be OMM docs. Or, maybe it does not pertain to their practice enough for them to be experts. Just because a family doc might be able to analyze an MRI doesn't mean he should be the guy looking for brain lesions - that is why we have radiologists.

Does any of this mean that these DOs do not understand the beauty of OMM? Doubtful. If you showed up at a DO school you will see plenty of people treating each other to deal with the incessant back and neck pain that you will undoubtedly experience from studying. I guarantee you, at my school, during finals most students appreciate the beauty of OMM.



As a doctor, you will be judged professionally based on the quality of care you provide. There are some complications to having a DO degree, but it will not make you an inferior doctor - that is something you earn all on your own.





Lets make this into a T-shirt.
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First of all, I agree completely. We do OMM on eachother as much as we possibly can. Nothing better than a good subocipital release or a well chosen ligamentous release. God I love OMM. Secondly, I would totally buy that shirt.

Our OMM professor (SO glad we could steal him from UNE, he's freaking awesome :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:) is constantly telling us that if we want to be good at OMM we have to practice, a lot. It's incredibly difficult to get really good palpatory skills because I know personally, I've never tried to feel things like this before. And I can see with all the studying that we have to do for other classes that a lot of students just don't get the chance to become as good at OMM as we could be. So I can understand why a lot of DO's don't use OMM in their practice, just because they don't think they're good enough at it. If you're not willing to invest the time to become very efficient with OMM then there wouldn't be a good reason to use it. I'm just hoping I can get good enough at it because I'd love to be able to use it in practice. At least for me, after about 8 years of knees problems and then 3 sessions of OMM, my knees feel AMAZING.


And also to the OP, beyond what I wrote above, your post is far too full of assumptions and hearsay for me to even care to respond. Sorry. Do some research.
 
TexasTriathlete said:
I fully believe in soft-tissue manipulation. I use it on myself, on my clients, and I have used it on my former athletes, some of whom are now playing in the NBA. It is absolutely essential to athletes, and I am looking forward to learning more about it.
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I don't think DOs have cornered the market on soft tissue manipulation.
 
I wonder how much biochem I'll use during my practice.
Probably not much.
 
My physician said that the DO is great but he simply liked the MD for one reason and one reason only: because the MD is his degree! He then chuckled at his smarmy comment. He's a great physician with a great personality. So, if it doesn't come across here in the ****ty world known as SDN - he was stating that there is no difference in his eyes.

I understand the sarcasm with regard to the t-shirt but I noticed a dental class t-shirt out in public that exclaimed "Dentists are doctors, too!" How lame is that? It screams pathetic.

The insecure (and often immature) people who seek out SDN approval need to grow a ****ing backbone and stop seeking perspective on this topic from people that just don't matter in the whole scheme.
 
gasapple said:
My physician said that the DO is great but he simply liked the MD for one reason and one reason only: because the MD is his degree! He then chuckled at his smarmy comment. He's a great physician with a great personality. So, if it doesn't come across here in the ****ty world known as SDN - he was stating that there is no difference in his eyes.

I understand the sarcasm with regard to the t-shirt but I noticed a dental class t-shirt out in public that exclaimed "Dentists are doctors, too!" How lame is that? It screams pathetic.

The insecure (and often immature) people who seek out SDN approval need to grow a ****ing backbone and stop seeking perspective on this topic from people that just don't matter in the whole scheme.
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Totally agree with gasapple. The shallow and uneducated ranks are the ones with these issues. I'm sorry to say that even my own mom has difficulty with the concept of DO. I, too, like SingeMagique08, come from a poor family and I am the only one in my extended family with a degree (I have two - BA in Philosophy/Foreign Languages and BS in Prosthetics/Orthotics). 11th grade education for both parents. I parallel the difficulty I had explaining DO to my own mother with the difficulty people have out in the world (and on this thread) justifying their degree. We have a unique situation in the USA, one that is not extended throughout the world, where a person has the capability not only to be educated in medicine as a mental skill set, but as DOs we can be trained with a physical skill set as well. I explained to mom that because I am already a practicing prosthetist, that I have developed a manual skill set already that helps me design sockets for my amputees. I have to palpate them, understand their peculiarities, their neuromas, their stage of amputation, and then I have to use that set of hand skills to design something that helps them walk.

Mom finally understood, reluctantly admitting that the DO degree is a form of enhanced MD degree. I still think she'd rather me be an MD but she is constrained by her own limited focus, and I understand that. Popular opinion notwithstanding, I know it's right for me and no amount of shallow, uneducated, uninformed (in the case of my mom)or, as gasapple says, immature or insecure opinions will dissuade me from what I know deep in my heart is the right thing to do for me personally.

I wish everyone on both sides of the argument well. I do not wish to create controversy, only to explain my own opinion having arrived at this opinion by way of already having spent thirteen years cultivating and nurturing my own armamentarium of hand skills. I know that I do understand the importance of the human touch in medicine probably better than some of the others on this thread, because I use it every day in my prosthetics practice. That said, it is just an opinion. Best regards. Please see my quote by Albert Einstein below.
 
Maybe this may clear some stuff up, but I come from a family of DOs and I think the discrimination that you are talking about might be a little exaggerated... They all work w/ MDs and they never feel inferior, they just work together as a team. Also many of the MDs make referrals to DOs, and the other way around. I think a lot of these discrimination ideas come from "premeds" that want the MD behind their name. Once you get your degree most physicians, MD or DO, will work together to help their patients, and the school that someone graduated from won't be a huge deal... I know there are SOME MDs that think negatively about DOs but I haven't met many of them.
 
CDO2012 said:
Maybe this may clear some stuff up, but I come from a family of DOs and I think the discrimination that you are talking about might be a little exaggerated... They all work w/ MDs and they never feel inferior, they just work together as a team. Also many of the MDs make referrals to DOs, and the other way around. I think a lot of these discrimination ideas come from "premeds" that want the MD behind their name. Once you get your degree most physicians, MD or DO, will work together to help their patients, and the school that someone graduated from won't be a huge deal... I know there are SOME MDs that think negatively about DOs but I haven't met many of them.
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well said
 
Threads like this make me want to go punch babies.

If you have an MD acceptance and are going to an MD school, why are you so interested and involved in the DO degree?

Let's see where we are in ten years. When you're working for me, feel free to tell me how my degree is inferior to yours.

Worry about yourself and how to improve MD education and standing and let us take care of us. I'm not the slightest bit concerned with where my degree will get me. Actions speak volumes, the letters after your name mean very little.
 
t-funk said:
I have to say EEL, I am very glad that you brought this issue to my attention. I do think this it is very serious and someone needs to look into why there is this epidemic of pre-meds not knowing the difference between weary and wary. :laugh:
Click to expand...

Or their and there. I've seen so many of these I wonder how some people got through their English requirement in undergrad.

I should also add to the original topic here... I have asked several MD's that I worked with if they feel that there is any feeling of difference between them and the DO's that they work with, and they all said that there was no difference between the MD's and DO's. They encouraged me to get whatever degree I wanted, and they assured me that I would be treated no differently in practice in the Chicago area at least. I have heard from some that areas less frequented by DO's may have more stigma towards them, but I see that changing in the near future as more DO schools are opening and DO's will be expanding into these areas as well.
 
EEL08 said:
Okay so this may make me sound like a jerk and t-funk will definitely laugh at me ;), but one thing that holds true for DOs and MDs is that neither understands that wary and weary are not the same word. :beat:
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I drive my wife (an English teacher) crazy, because I am constantly mixing up scald and scold
 
Colbert said:
Threads like this make me want to go punch babies.

If you have an MD acceptance and are going to an MD school, why are you so interested and involved in the DO degree?

Let's see where we are in ten years. When you're working for me, feel free to tell me how my degree is inferior to yours.

Worry about yourself and how to improve MD education and standing and let us take care of us. I'm not the slightest bit concerned with where my degree will get me. Actions speak volumes, the letters after your name mean very little.
Click to expand...

i know you are trying to defend your degree, but the bolded comment makes you sound incredibly arrogant and to be honest...pretty stupid. totally unecessary.
 
ryserr21 said:
i know you are trying to defend your degree, but the bolded comment makes you sound incredibly arrogant and to be honest...pretty stupid. totally unecessary.
Click to expand...
I think you completely missed his point.
 
TexasTriathlete said:
I think you completely missed his point.
Click to expand...

its possible. won't be the first or the last time either :rolleyes:. what was the point? i will be happy to edit my previous statement if in fact i did take the comment the wrong way or missed the point all together.
 
When to use OMM??

Every DO I have worked for overwhelming makes the point they use it when it is appropriate. Might not be often, or all of the time, it depends on the case load. OMM is not for every case. No point in using it for the sake of using it, if the signs and symptoms dont call for it, then your not making sound clinical judgements.

It is an extra tool in our bag of tricks to utilize for the best possible outcomes for our patients when appropriate.
 
1.) Being an osteopathic physician is not about using OMM
2.) Osteopathic Physicians are not allopathic physicians, nor are allopathic physicians osteopathic physicians. You should not use one to define the other, it will save you a lot of headaches. Pre-meds need to realize that the two professions are distinctly different. Therefore, going to Osteopathic medical because " you get to be a Dr. and no one will no the difference" will leave you wanting.

In conclusion, the doctorate in Osteopathic Medicine is a great degree and provides a great opportunity to treat patients clinically. However, if the dream was always to be an M.D. don't "settle" for the D.O. because you will always be left wondering.

Good luck in your decisions. They can be very difficult!
:D
 
Yet another brilliant post from a pre-med who admittedly has very little health experience. Try gaining some, and then we'll talk.
 
. Nevermind.
 
What is the purpose of making this thread?

Why are these issues on your mind? You got into your so coveted MD granting institution- dont look back and leave us alone.
 
Kappy1 said:
Another problem is that the DO degree is up against houseMD, WebMD, etc.. and a media that views the only physicians in this country is MD. When Newsweek did a story on a doctor in Iraq who was a hero the physician was a DO but, put hero MD on the cover because that is what sells.
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Another example is Dr. Will Kirby on Dr. 90210. He is a DO from my school (NSU-COM) and not once do you see the letters behind his name.
 
Atleast if you go to his website he doesnt try to hide it at all.
 
Kappy1 said:
Another problem is that the DO degree is up against houseMD, WebMD, etc.. and a media that views the only physicians in this country is MD. When Newsweek did a story on a doctor in Iraq who was a hero the physician was a DO but, put hero MD on the cover because that is what sells.
Click to expand...

i gave a presentation on osteopathic medicine in my History of Medicine class..... i talked about the doc you are referring to, his name is Richard Jadick and he went to NYCOM. while reading up on the article i read that another reason for putting hero MD is b/c "nobody knows what a DO is and we don't want to confuse our readers" below is the newsweek cover!

in case you can't read the tiny/blurry print, it reads "he saved 30 lives in one battle...hero MD...the amazing story of the wars most fearless doctor"

Richard_jadick_newsweek_cover.jpg
 
Listen, I'm not going to pretend to understand why you felt the need to point out every flaw or shortcoming of the osteopathic profession, or why you made ridiculous statements that are nothing more than your opinion or "well I heard from this one MD this one time that DOs sometimes can't do this or that." But you better check yourself. Outside of the pre-med stigma, there pretty much is no stigma. You might still find some old docs who look down at DOs. Good for them. But hell, my grandma is a racist. She's old, she's set in her ways, and there's no changing that. That doesn't mean she's the least bit right, it just means her opinion was made up when she was young and there was no going back. Go to med school, get some perspective, and check back with me in a few years if you still feel the same way. I doubt you will.
 
And I still don't get why you felt the urge to make this thread. I could go into the pre-allo board and talk about how they won't learn OMM and their education will be lacking vital diagnostic and treatment tools, but what's the point? To go in there and try to piss them all off?
 
Puzzling isn't it
 
Colbert said:
Listen, I'm not going to pretend to understand why you felt the need to point out every flaw or shortcoming of the osteopathic profession, or why you made ridiculous statements that are nothing more than your opinion or "well I heard from this one MD this one time that DOs sometimes can't do this or that." But you better check yourself. Outside of the pre-med stigma, there pretty much is no stigma. You might still find some old docs who look down at DOs. Good for them. But hell, my grandma is a racist. She's old, she's set in her ways, and there's no changing that. That doesn't mean she's the least bit right, it just means her opinion was made up when she was young and there was no going back. Go to med school, get some perspective, and check back with me in a few years if you still feel the same way. I doubt you will.
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i agree with everything you are saying..... but when it comes to beliefs about certain people (DOs are inferior, blacks are inferior, etc. etc.) its not a matter of whether the belief is right or wrong...the very fact that there are people out there that hold these opinions will have a negative impact on your future and/or your practice.... do you agree?

or are you just saying that there are so few MDs that feel DOs are inferior that it really doesnt matter.
 
WoahMedicine said:
1.) Being an osteopathic physician is not about using OMM
2.) Osteopathic Physicians are not allopathic physicians, nor are allopathic physicians osteopathic physicians. You should not use one to define the other, it will save you a lot of headaches. Pre-meds need to realize that the two professions are distinctly different. Therefore, going to Osteopathic medical because " you get to be a Dr. and no one will no the difference" will leave you wanting.

In conclusion, the doctorate in Osteopathic Medicine is a great degree and provides a great opportunity to treat patients clinically. However, if the dream was always to be an M.D. don't "settle" for the D.O. because you will always be left wondering.

Good luck in your decisions. They can be very difficult!
:D
Click to expand...

:rolleyes: Sound argument lol. I do think there are subtle, yet important differences. However, I'm interested to see what bull**** you can pull up to back up this otherwise empty argument...
 
ocwaveoc said:
Just some random stuff here....

1) Why do so few DOs use OMM? (some may argue that more than the stats indicate use OMM due to insurance issues etc...but, if OMM is the one of the defining differences between MDs and DOs, I'd think that more would use OMM) I thought of some reasons
* Perhaps most DO students/grads really wanted to goto MD schools and settled on DO schools just to become physicians. After all, a physician is a physician regardless of the letters after one's name. So, the DO students never really had strong interest in OMM anyway....hmm..can this be it?
* Perhaps, OMM really doesn't work in more cases than say pharmacological methods to deal with medical issues. So, students learn it but since it doesn't really work as well unless you are very good at it they end up not using it....could this be one of the reasons?
* Perhaps, it works well if done correctly. But, it's just not taught in ways that encourages/shows the beauty of OMM. I've heard from an OMM specialist that the students don't really see how it works during the 1st 2 yrs when they learn it and rarely get to see it in action (at least not a lot) even in the 3rd and 4th yr unless you do an OMM rotation.
* Perhaps the outcome from OMM txs are not as apparent as say the effects you get from taking meds....could this be the reason why not many use OMM?

I get the feeling the real reason (along with insurance reimbursement issues) is a some combination of some or all of the above.

2) I know why I initially applied to DO schools and the reason was a logical one. But, when I asked myself why someone who's just finishing up a 4 yr college degree without a lot of medical background be interested in a DO degree despite the well known discrimination against DOs by some MDs, I couldn't understand their interest in a DO degree. I know some buy into the "holistic" approach the DO schools advertise. But, I'd think that those people are the minorities of the DO applicants. I'm sure many applicants have had good experiences with DOs and became interested in the degree. But, what is interesting is that for some reason, most of the (note that I said MOST, not ALL) DO applicants have stats significantly lower than typical MD matriculants.

What I really think is that since most with lower stats know they have low chance of an MD admission, they settle for a DO degree. Again, there are, I'm sure who even chose a DO school over an MD school. But, I bet you those are a small/tiny exceptions. I bet that 75% of DO applicants, if given a MD acceptance, they'd forego with the DO acceptance and go the MD route. You may argue with me on this. But, it is strange that most people gung ho about DO school are the ones with low stats who likely couldn't get into an MD school (again not ALL, I'm sure. I'm sure some of you have stats good enough for MD schools and preferred DO over MD).

But, it is unfortunate that there is a "stigma" against DOs that may make some DO applicants feel they'd prefer an MD degree since the didactic is pretty much the same.....it's just the matter of the letters at the end of the name....and.......

3) The clinical years during the 3rd and 4th yr in DO school. From what I hear, many allo residencies are a bit wary of DO students because the consistency in the quality of education during the rotation years is much more varied than the MD school 3rd and 4th year rotations. So perhaps, places like PCOM and CCOM have good rep due to solid rotation sites and controlled quality of rotation experience compared to some others. I've heard that this aspect of DO education is thought by the MD world as being significantly inferior to the MD counterpart. This isn't my opinion. This was the opinion of an MD residency director.

4) Except for 1 MD I spoke to, I'd say all others didn't have the best opinions about the DO degree. Knowing this I wondered if I became a DO, how I'd feel working with MDs.

I bring these pts up because I really feel that it's unfortunate the MD and DO thing is the way it is. It's unwarranted. A good physician is a good physician no matter what the degree. But, in our world, there are pecking orders, prejudices and other issues. I mean, even in the MD world there are pecking orders.....family med physicians are looked down upon by way the orthopods......physical medicine docs are looked down upon by the neuro surgeons etc...... I've been told about this by numerous MDs. It's too bad. But, what I can control is getting a good education, working hard and servicing my patients the best way I can.

I too have chosen the MD route. Easier obtaining residencies (don't need to feel like I need to take 2 licensing exams!), less discrimination and the perception by the residency directors that my schools' clinical rotation experiences were likely superior to the DO counterparts are the reason I chose to go MD over DO. I wished there weren't such issues because I really wanted to stay in Socal where my DO acceptance was.
Click to expand...

At the core of it all, it seems to me like you are in some sort of a psychological limbo between MD and DO and the cause of it is basically the location of your acceptance, a far MD school or a closer DO school. In the end, you basically talk yourself into going for the MD because you don't want to face an 'uphill' battle as a DO. So what is the purpose of this thread?

You don't really need to stir up the ****pot for others if you have already made up your mind (unless this is one of those self-encouraging thread). A bit of an advice though, whether it is a MD/DO degree, it is only a license giving you the right to practice. You don't automatically earn respect with it, you have to build it yourself.
 
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