Why doesnt everyone stop wasting time reapplying and just apply to the carib.

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helpfuldoc2b

helpfuldoc2b

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Why doesnt everyone stop wasting time reapplying and just apply to the carib. Just curious. I mean i dont care what anyone says an MD is an MD is an MD, once you do your residency, you get equal opportunity, equal pay, etc.. Yes you have to go through more loopholes, and you probably cant get the most competitive residencies, but your still an MD, you get to start your studies sooner, and your not wasting your life and time banging your head in the wall asking what you can do to improve your application and predict how the ADCOM is going to react to your next cycle. I mean even if you consider you will lose money by paying higher tuitions, more loans, you still will be doing better in the long run with less years wasted and more return, for every year wasted applying to MD schools is a year you could have been making an MD salary and doing what you love.

Just curious, wondering if anyone pondered the question of going carib instead of fighting how these darn Adcoms going to react to your next application.
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I think you answered your own question.

"Yes you have to go through more loopholes, and you probably cant get the most competitive residencies"

oh.. and when you get into a U.S. school, ~98% graduate... Carib... not so much
 
In the 2008 match that just took place, only 51.9% (1541 of 2969) of US citizens from international medical schools matched. While many will get spots in the scramble, the odds just aren't all that good. Keep in mind that 94.2% (20,940 of 22,240) of the total available spots were already filled in the match. That's only 1300 spots left to be filled by 883 MDs, 663 previous MDs, 531 DOs, 14 Canadians, 51 5th pathway grads, 1428 US citizens from international schools, and 4227 non-citizens from international schools who didn't match. That's nearly 8000 people scrambling for the 1300 spots and it doesn't even include the people who withdrew or didn't turn in a ranking list.
 
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scpod said:
In the 2008 match that just took place, only 51.9% (1541 of 2969) of US citizens from international medical schools matched. While many will get spots in the scramble, the odds just aren't all that good. Keep in mind that 94.2% (20,940 of 22,240) of the total available spots were already filled in the match. That's only 1300 spots left to be filled by 883 MDs, 663 previous MDs, 531 DOs, 14 Canadians, 51 5th pathway grads, 1428 US citizens from international schools, and 4227 non-citizens from international schools who didn't match. That's nearly 8000 people scrambling for the 1300 spots and it doesn't even include the people who withdrew or didn't turn in a ranking list.
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7797 need to fill 1300 spots

assuming that the OP is talking about U.S. citizens, they are about 18%.

strictly in terms of numbers, if they take 18% of the 1300 spots, that would be 238 spots that they would take in the scramble, assuming that everyone is exactly equal (not sure how system works).

OP, that would still be a 59% match rate ;)
 
reason #2: i don't want to live in the carribean.
 
helpfuldoc2b said:
Why doesnt everyone stop wasting time reapplying and just apply to the carib. Just curious. I mean i dont care what anyone says an MD is an MD is an MD, once you do your residency, you get equal opportunity, equal pay, etc.. Yes you have to go through more loopholes, and you probably cant get the most competitive residencies, but your still an MD, you get to start your studies sooner, and your not wasting your life and time banging your head in the wall asking what you can do to improve your application and predict how the ADCOM is going to react to your next cycle. I mean even if you consider you will lose money by paying higher tuitions, more loans, you still will be doing better in the long run with less years wasted and more return, for every year wasted applying to MD schools is a year you could have been making an MD salary and doing what you love.

Just curious, wondering if anyone pondered the question of going carib instead of fighting how these darn Adcoms going to react to your next application.
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1) High Attrition rate of the Caribbean- is it really worth risking 50K just to fail out or leave?

2) Poor board pass rates arent good

3) Harder to get a residency- almost impossible to get a competitive residency

4) Hoops to jump through to come back and practice in the US

5) Vacationing in the Caribbean is nice, living there not so much

6) You are going to be spending at least 7 years in med school and residency. Might as well put in the effort to go to a place you know you'll be happy at.

Just my take on it though
 
I'm sure a Caribbean school will take your money, but what will they give you in return. You should know what their graduation rate is, what their pass rate for their USMLE Step exams are, and what their residency match rate is.

I met a few folks from Carib. schools while I was interviewing for residency. They were definitely worried about matching to a US program, and they were applying to a LOT of programs (it can get expensive to interview). I only applied to 9 residencies, got interviews at every place I applied, and matched to the program I wanted.

Think carefully about your future. If your GPA and MCAT scores are good, you should get interviews (which means they think your good enough to go to their med school), if your personable you should do fine during the interview (be prepared--why do you want to be a doctor?). I only applied to 4 US med schools and got in. If you need to apply to more, do it!! I met someone who had applied to dozens of schools.
 
Instatewaiter said:
4) Hoops to jump through to come back and practice in the US
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Another good point. Most states require Carribean grads to do three years of residency before obtaining their medical license. That means no moonlighting. The way things are going you may not be able to defer loan repayment through residency within a few years. Try living on a resident's salary then.
 
Yeah, because I was wasting my time when I reapplied. :rolleyes:

I should have applied to Caribbean schools only!
 
scpod said:
In the 2008 match that just took place, only 51.9% (1541 of 2969) of US citizens from international medical schools matched. While many will get spots in the scramble, the odds just aren't all that good. Keep in mind that 94.2% (20,940 of 22,240) of the total available spots were already filled in the match. That's only 1300 spots left to be filled by 883 MDs, 663 previous MDs, 531 DOs, 14 Canadians, 51 5th pathway grads, 1428 US citizens from international schools, and 4227 non-citizens from international schools who didn't match. That's nearly 8000 people scrambling for the 1300 spots and it doesn't even include the people who withdrew or didn't turn in a ranking list.
Click to expand...

But established carib universities such as SGU, Ross, AUC and Saba claim a 99%+ residency match. So I think most of those foreign medical grads are either non carib or just plain foreign students not IMG (US Citizens), I mean just think how many just apply from china and india, those numbers alone inflate the percentages. Carib med schools have an almost 100% placement rate from what I researched due to the fact that they have established US clinicals (better for letters of recs, networking for residencies, etc...), mostly made of US IMGs, and are geared to pass the USLMEs. Most other FMGs have language barriers and teaching methods other than that of US med schools which makes it harder to evaluate clinical skills, makes it harder for them to pass the Steps, and the language barrier alone stands as an obstalce, so if you take the FMG applicants out the perecentaged for Carib Alumni seem to be much higher in matching, especially the top 3 or so. Just from my research, not really implying nothing or imposing my ideas on anyone.

Thanks all.
 
nice post i found on the carib forum, eventhough its not directly relevant to the topic, it does shed some light:

The message was not typed by me, but is all a quotation i took the liberty to quote and how the below poster doesnt mind.


Vermian
Junior Member


Status: Resident
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 22

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sorry to come into this "debate" a little late. Before going further, let me state my background (for those of you who have not read my other posts)...

Graduated AUC 2002 - currently PGY5 in neurosurgery.

That said, I feel the need to revisit two points mentioned earlier. Both confused me. One was the lack of need to take the USMLE. As a resident currently, I am not sure how you can get around that in any program. Even if you could, how could you apply for licensure in any state? Perhaps there are regulations I don't know about out there, but I know I needed my USMLE scores for SC, WA, AL, and LA.

The other was the statement that DOs had their own neurosurgery programs. Really?!? That must be why I have yet to meet a neurosurgery resident or staff that is DO. I am not saying that they are not out there, and I would not have any problem meeting them. Also, how is their interaction with the ABNS (the authority for certification of neurosurgeons)?

Like so many other people stated, the path you choose is a personal choice (or the last resort depending), but you are the only one who has to live with it in the end. No one asks me where I went to medical school, but I would tell them if they did. I have no need to "hide" my Caribbean diploma. Frankly, no one really cares. I am pretty sure the same holds true for the few DOs I have encountered along the way. No one takes that much time to look at your jacket to figure out what is after your name. Heck, most of the time they don't even look at your name.

I would also have to state that the whole match statistics is a bit misrepresented. If you attend a US school, you are required to obtain a residency position through the match right out of medical school. Caribbean students are not limited that way, and I know a lot of my classmates who found positions prior to graduation. Therefore, they did not even participate in the match. I don't know where their numbers may be documented, but I would think that is tracked somewhere.

I wish everyone the best of luck. I would be interested in seeing how many of you quiz your fellow applicants during residency interviews and after six months of intern year as to what school they attended. I am pretty sure that by the time you figure out how to survive intern year, you will realize no one cares.

Good luck to you all.
 
the match rate is much lower due to pre match that carb students are allowed to do.

and you said that the carb attrition rate is much higher. if you think you will fail out of a school there, what makes you think you can handle the education in america?
 
I agree with above.

People who don't get into U.S. med school generally fall into three categories:

(1) students who would make excellent doctors and be successful in medical school but because of how crazy competitive it is, they got waitlisted at the majority of places they interviewed.
(2) students who don't have the discipline or interest to study medicine and if they actually got in to a U.S. MD or DO school they would drop out. they tend to get straight up rejected.
(3) students whose stats don't represent their academic ability or interest.

the first two should never apply to carrib. students from (1) could improve their candidacy with minor "strategic" improvements to the apps. e.g. apply earlier and more broad, post-bacc, more ECs, etc. studen'ts from (2) would probably fail out of carrib med school if accepted. they should either find out if medicine is for them or improve their study skills during the reapplication process.

category (3) tends to be rare but it still exists. i could see why these students would want to go carrib, and for good reason. improving stats is a slow, expensive process. but if a student who is in this category doesn't want to go to carrib for a variety of legit reasons, then i hardly call his time being wasted improving his candidacy for MD/DO schools.
 
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Interesting topic. I guess I would fit into person#3.

To me, the Carib is more of a 2nd chance. It should not be your first choice to save "time", but if your options of getting into a US school are looking pretty slim, the Carib may be a good thing. But if your grades are low because you are just lazy and didnt give a crap about school, you will fail out in the Carib too.

Its a good option for those who the US may seem far fetched.
 
helpfuldoc2b said:
But established carib universities such as SGU, Ross, AUC and Saba claim a 99%+ residency match.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see some data on this.

I suspect their match rates (like many other schools) are artificially inflated due to not including those who started med school but didn't graduate, etc.
 
Blade, where did you go to med. school?
 
I work with someone who graduated from a carib. school almost 3 years ago and has had an awful time finding a residency program. It sucks to have those student loans without the pay to back them up...
 
JMarie said:
I work with someone who graduated from a carib. school almost 3 years ago and has had an awful time finding a residency program. It sucks to have those student loans without the pay to back them up...
Click to expand...

What school did he/she go to? What type of loans did the person get? Which residency did he/she end up getting?
 
I have to weigh in on the issue. First of all I am not a graduate of any Caribbean schools, or affiliated with any.

However, I have a friend who is graduating from Ross this year. He got his first choice for residency in Radiology.

The Ross students only spend 16 months overseas after that they are in the US the rest of the time. In our city we have a residency program in Family Practice Medicine and Medical students from Ross University occasionally.

Whether a US MD program, US DO program(I have seen DOs in all fields including Neurosurgery), or Caribbean MD program, I in my idealistic views think that the Match will come if one deserves a match in that area. To Pigeonhole one program or another fails to take into account the program, the testing scores etc.

A sports analogy will work here. Duke is almost always continually ranked in basketball. Due in most part to the caliber of their program and recruiting. However some years they just are not that good, and a team(Belmont) can come out of nowhere can almost beat them. Does a draft ignore the excellent players at say a Belmont to only pick the players at Duke. Not if they are smart and want to be the best.:rolleyes:
 
Why not go out of the country?

connections that's why

it's not what you know, it's who you know

your network of peers will probably be better (for your career) in a competitive US school
 
I can understand the logic behind the thread - how can "we" as medical school applicants claim that this is all we want to do, our calling, etc, if we are not exhausting every resource available to reach the goal?

"I want to be a doctor; it is my life's passion... just so long as I stay on the East coast"

I understand that there are many reasons to limit the number of places you apply (many of which I will use myself), I'm simply providing a devil's advocate post.
 
drjds said:
Blade, where did you go to med. school?
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He went to a US school if thats what you're asking.

helpfuldoc2b has the idiomatic usage of the English language typical of ESL
I'm not saying he's planting pro-carrib info, I just don't want this place turning into ValueMD.

I've worked in the carrib and it's a hot, dirty place with great people. A friend teaches down there. I would go through at LEAST two application cycles here first.
 
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because people like me look at the school you graduate from and I dont go to IMG MDs......im just one person though
 
helpfuldoc2b said:
The other was the statement that DOs had their own neurosurgery programs. Really?!? That must be why I have yet to meet a neurosurgery resident or staff that is DO. I am not saying that they are not out there, and I would not have any problem meeting them.
Click to expand...

Vermian's post is here (below). Someone corrected him and told him there are many DO Neurosurgery residency programs. He was misinformed.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=6437489#post6437489
 
Instatewaiter said:
1) High Attrition rate of the Caribbean- is it really worth risking 50K just to fail out or leave?

2) Poor board pass rates arent good

3) Harder to get a residency- almost impossible to get a competitive residency

4) Hoops to jump through to come back and practice in the US

5) Vacationing in the Caribbean is nice, living there not so much

6) You are going to be spending at least 7 years in med school and residency. Might as well put in the effort to go to a place you know you'll be happy at.

Just my take on it though
Click to expand...

All of the above PLUS,
(7) costs are higher. And going home to see family friends on breaks is higher due to crazy airfare to these vacation locales.
(8) Often you have to set up your own rotations in the states, along with housing etc.
(9) lots of "games" played by the schools as to who is allowed to sit for boards, apply for the match, when, after various internal exams, so they can brag decent board passage rates. match lists
(10) Generally must take Step 2 before applying to residencies (US students usually only need it for graduation).
 
medhearter said:
I thought the "scramble" for IMGs no longer exists.
IMGs apply alongside US-grads
Click to expand...

You misunderstand the term. The scramble is for everyone. People who don't match have to scramble into the remaining spots. It becomes a bloodbath for non-US students because US students have their deans/faculty/mentors make phone calls for them to private lines while non-US students are stuck trying to fax applications to overtaxed/broken faxes and leave messages on answering machines.
 
helpfuldoc2b said:
But established carib universities such as SGU, Ross, AUC and Saba claim a 99%+ residency match.
Click to expand...

99%+? Only higher than that is 100%, maybe you should just say 100%...Although, I highly doubt that since SGU (the best of the Big4) is stating 81% in their email.


JMarie said:
I work with someone who graduated from a carib. school almost 3 years ago and has had an awful time finding a residency program. It sucks to have those student loans without the pay to back them up...
Click to expand...

Strong Join date and posts. Why did you choose Pre-Medical when you joined last year if you are obviously implying that you are a intern or atleast in Medical School...

People love to troll.

Eggsin3Baskets said:

However, I have a friend who is graduating from Ross this year. He got his first choice for residency in Radiology.

Click to expand...

O RLY? There is only 1-2 people that got residency in Rad, and 1 of them is a girl... I know who your friend is....
 
Craigslist said:
99%+? Only higher than that is 100%, maybe you should just say 100%...Although, I highly doubt that since SGU (the best of the Big4) is stating 81% in their email.

...
Click to expand...

It's a very high number, because you have to remember that this is a high percentage of the not so high percentage that weren't lost to attrition and then were allowed to sit for the USMLE after passing internal tests and then were allowed to apply to the match. So it's a high percentage of that fraction of the class that was successful. Really should be 100% considering the amount of fractionation that's involved. Go on the websites of some of these schools and look at the enrollments -- you will see that the total enrollment is a LOT bigger than 4 times the match list. Meaning most of the people are being lost along the way or caught somewhere between 1st and 4th year.
 
Law2Doc said:
It's a very high number, because you have to remember that this is a high percentage of the not so high percentage that weren't lost to attrition and then were allowed to sit for the USMLE after passing internal tests and then were allowed to apply to the match. So it's a high percentage of that fraction of the class that was successful. Really should be 100% considering the amount of fractionation that's involved. Go on the websites of some of these schools and look at the enrollments -- you will see that the total enrollment is a LOT bigger than 4 times the match list. Meaning most of the people are being lost along the way or caught somewhere between 1st and 4th year.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

That's one of the things that crack me up about Carib applicants/students that are passionate about their choice. Most don't really understand the numbers and percentages.

I used to engage in lots of discussions at the Carib forum but I simply gave up. The people there just don't get it.

There are still Carib students that say "Two students from SGU matched in Radiology! That's the same as any DO school!" What they fail to realize is that 2 SGU students out of 600 grads and 2 DO students out of a class of 50 are not the same odds.

Have I met great doctors from the Carib? Of course. It's possible to be successful in medicine coming from the Caribbean schools, but it's just a much more difficult path. For those that could hack it in the US but for whatever reason couldn't get into an MD/DO school, the Carib is a great way to become a US doctor. Those that can't hack it in the US and think that somehow the Caribbean is going to modify their IQ level or give them discipline and fine-tune their study habits will be in for a huge disappointment (and a smaller bank account).
 
I agree with shrinken.
I also wonder why the OP was banned. Did he/she have multiple accounts?

I don't think it's a waste of time to apply several times to US schools before considering the Caribbean. Personally, I would recommend that someone try at least twice at US schools, if you have ANY chance at all of getting in, before going to the Caribbean. This is particularly true for US students (vs. Canadians...as I hear it is extra difficult to get into med school in Canada). In the US, there are more med schools than ever before, and there are US MD and DO schools expanding their classes. There are some shady schools in the Caribbean, ones where a ton of students flunk out, and/or finish school but then can't get any residency afterwards (which would be a complete disaster and waste of 3-4 years of your life, and SUCH big debt). IMHO it would be much, much better to wait to get into a US school, or just pursue another health care career like physical therapist, PA, nursing or pharmacist in the US, than go to the Caribbean if you are likely to fail out.

There are some selected students for whom I think Caribbean is a decent option if you really can't get into a US school...this would be someone who is a good standardized test taker, but really screwed up the undergrad GPA in the past, maybe older student and doesn't want to wait another couple years to get into US schools, and who understands that he/she is probably going to be limited in the residency specialties open to him/her at graduation from a Caribbean school. Even then, I would never ever even consider going to any of the Caribbean schools other than maybe 2-4 of those that are able to practice in all 50 US states, and then I would investigate a lot to make sure they have a good pass rate on the US medical licensing exam (90%+ in my mind) AND that they are going to be able to provide you with decent clinical rotations in the 3rd and 4th years. This last part is really important...you don't want to have to fight it out with other students in your class to get assigned to a decent hospital, or be trying to set up your months in the hospital all by yourself, or have to move all around the country, or get to the hospital and spend a month with nobody teaching you anything.
 
Not sure why the OP was banned, but I was faced with the decision of going to a Caribbean school or not going to medical school, I would choose not to go to medical school. The risks are too great and the odds regarding residency placement are not in your favor. It is a bad investment, plain and simple.

Not to say others havent done well with this path, but they are the minority.
 
It's a huge gamble going to a caribbean medical school. It's expensive and there's a good chance one may not graduate. I would only advise it in someone who is highly motivated and had decent undergrad grades and MCAT but didn't get into a US school after 1 or two cycles.

Obviously in the carib schools the best students there will get into residencies. It will be tougher than it is as a US graduate. The attrition rate in those schools are staggering. A brilliant kid will do fine there because they can absorb the material but an average to smart kid will languish and fail out. When I was a resident, one of the hospitalist was a graduate of a carib school. I was shocked when I found out because he was a pretty good doc.
 
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