Universal Health Care for U.S., Yes or No?

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Universal Health Care for U.S., Yes or No?

  • hell naw

    Votes: 131 46.5%
  • Yes

    Votes: 151 53.5%

  • Total voters
    282

katarzyna

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Medical/Pre-Med students/Physicians, anyone, what do you think?

Prior to answering the poll, read the following :).

BalancedPolitics.org

Yes
  1. The number of uninsured citizens has grown to over 40 million. Since health care premiums continue to grow at several times the rate of inflation, many businesses are simply choosing to not offer a health plan, or if they do, to pass on more of the cost to employees. Employees facing higher costs themselves are often choosing to go without health coverage. No health insurance doesn't necessarily mean no health care since there are many clinics and services that are free to indigent individuals. However, any costs not covered by insurance must be absorbed by all the rest of us, which means even higher premiums.
  2. Health care has become increasingly unaffordable for businesses and individuals. Businesses and individuals that choose to keep their health plans still must pay a much higher amount. Remember, businesses only have a certain amount of money they can spend on labor. If they must spend more on health insurance premiums, they will have less money to spend on raises, new hires, investment, and so on. Individuals who must pay more for premiums have less money to spend on rent, food, and consumer goods; in other words, less money is pumped back into the economy. Thus, health care prevents the country from making a robust economic recovery. A simpler government-controlled system that reduces costs would go a long way in helping that recovery.
  3. We can eliminate wasteful inefficiencies such as duplicate paper work, claim approval, insurance submission, etc. Think back to all the times in your life you've had to fill out a medical history, answering the same questions over and over. Think about all the insurance paperwork you've had to fill out and submit. Our current health care system generates an enormous amount of overhead. Every time we go to the doctor, a claim must be submitted, an approval department has to go over the claim, checks have to be mailed, patients are sent co-pay bills, and so on. The thing that's especially wasteful is that each doctor's office usually maintains their own record-keeping system. A universal healthcare plan would allow us to build one centralized system. There would be no need for maintaining insurance information or wasting time submitting claims. The work savings in the banking and postal areas alone would be worth billions every year.
  4. We can develop a centralized national database which makes diagnosis and treatment easier for doctors. Most doctor's offices maintain a separate record-keeping system. This is why you always have to fill out a lengthy health history whenever you go to a new physician. This is a problem for several reasons. First of all, it's wasteful of both time and money. Second of all, patients may lie, forget, or do a poor job of explaining past medical problems. Doctors need accurate information to make a proper diagnosis. Last of all, separate systems means we have a tougher time analyzing data at a national level. For example, are incidents of a certain disease dropping? How often is a certain illness associated with a specific set of symptoms? A centralized national system would allow us to do data analysis that we never dreamed possible, leading to medical advances and increased diagnosis efficiency. The main argument against a centralized database is that certain insurance providers may deny coverage if they find certain past medical problems. However, if the government is paying for everything, that should never be a problem.
  5. Medical professionals can concentrate on healing the patient rather than on insurance procedures, malpractice liability, etc. Doctors have to take classes now simply to understand all the insurance plans out there; they are often restricted by insurance practices, such as what tests can be ordered. Doctors must practice defensive medicine to avoid getting sued. Some physicians are even leaving the profession rather than deal with all these non-medical headaches. A simplified universal health system would allow doctors, nurses, and other medical professions to simply focus on doing what's best for the patient. Medicine is a complex enough subject as it is. Our current system just adds to an already mentally-draining profession.
  6. Free medical services would encourage patients to practice preventive medicine and inquire about problems early when treatment will be light; currently, patients often avoid physicals and other preventive measures because of the costs. Because many people are uninsured and those that do have insurance face high deductibles, Americans often forego doctor visits for minor health problems or for preventive medicine. Thus, health problems that could be caught at an early stage or prevented altogether become major illnesses. Things like routine physicals, mammograms, and HIV tests could prevent major problems. This not only affects the health of the patient but the overall cost of the system, since preventive medicine costs only a small fraction of a full blown disease. A government-provided system would remove the disincentive patients have for visiting a medical professional.
No
  1. There isn't a single government agency or division that runs efficiently; do we really want an organization that developed the U.S. Tax Code handling something as complex as health care? Quick, try to think of one government office that runs efficiently. The Department of Transportation? Social Security Administration? Department of Education? There isn't a single government office that squeezes efficiency out of every dollar the way the private sector can. We've all heard stories of government waste such as million-dollar cow flatulence studies or the Pentagon's 14 billion dollar Bradley design project that resulted in a vehicle which when struck by a mortar produced a gas that killed every man inside. How about the U.S. income tax system? When originally implemented, it collected 1 percent from the highest income citizens. Look at it today. A few years back to government published a "Tax Simplification Guide", and the guide itself was over 1,000 pages long! This is what happens when politicians mess with something that should be simple. Think about the Department of Motor Vehicles. This isn't rocket science--they have to keep track of licenses and basic database information for state residents. However, the costs to support the department are enormous, and when was the last time you went to the DMV and didn't have to stand in a long line? If it can't handle things this simple, how can we expect the government to handle all the complex nuances of the medical system?
  2. "Free" health care isn't really free since we must pay for it with taxes; expenses for health care would have to be paid for with higher taxes or spending cuts in other areas such as defense, education, etc. There's an entitlement mentality in this country that believes the government should give us a number of benefits such as "free" health care. But the government must pay for this somehow. What good would it do to wipe out a few hundred dollars of monthly health insurance premiums if our taxes go up by that much or more? If we have to cut AIDS research or education spending, is it worth it?
  3. Profit motives, competition, and individual ingenuity have always led to greater cost control and effectiveness. Government workers have fewer incentives to do well. They have a set hourly schedule, cost-of-living raises, and few promotion opportunities. Compare this to private sector workers who can receive large raises, earn promotions, and work overtime. Government workers have iron-clad job security; private sector workers must always worry about keeping their jobs, and private businesses must always worry about cutting costs enough to survive.
  4. Government-controlled health care would lead to a decrease in patient flexibility. At first glance, it would appear universal health care would increase flexibility. After all, if government paid for everything under one plan, you could in theory go to any doctor. However, some controls are going to have to be put in to keep costs from exploding. For example, would "elective" surgeries such as breast implants, wart removal, hair restoration, and lasik eye surgery be covered? Then you may say, that's easy, make patients pay for elective surgery. Although some procedures are obviously not needed, who decides what is elective and what is required? What about a breast reduction for back problems? What about a hysterectomy for fibroid problems? What about a nose job to fix a septum problem caused in an accident? Whenever you have government control of something, you have one item added to the equation that will most definitely screw things up--politics. Suddenly, every medical procedure and situation is going to come down to a political battle. The compromises that result will put in controls that limit patient options. The universal system in Canada forces patients to wait over 6 months for a routine pap smear. Canada residents will often go to the U.S. or offer additional money to get their health care needs taken care of.
  5. Patients aren't likely to curb their drug costs and doctor visits if health care is free; thus, total costs will be several times what they are now. Co-pays and deductibles were put in place because there are medical problems that are more minor annoyances than anything else. Sure, it would be nice if we had the medical staff and resources to treat every ache and pain experienced by an American, but we don't. For example, what if a patient is having trouble sleeping? What if a patient has a minor cold, flu, or headache? There are scores of problems that we wouldn't go to a doctor to solve if we had to pay for it; however, if everything is free, why not go? The result is that doctors must spend more time on non-critical care, and the patients that really need immediate help must wait. In fact, for a number of problems, it's better if no medical care is given whatsoever. The body's immune system is designed to fight off infections and other illnesses. It becomes stronger when it can fight things off on its own. Treating the symptoms can prolong the underlying problem, in addition to the societal side effects such as the growing antibiotic resistance of certain infections.
  6. Just because Americans are uninsured doesn't mean they can't receive health care; nonprofits and government-run hospitals provide services to those who don't have insurance, and it is illegal to refuse emergency medical service because of a lack of insurance. While uninsured Americans are a problem in regards to total system cost, it doesn't mean health care isn't available. This issue shouldn't be as emotional since there are plenty of government and private medical practices designed to help the uninsured. It is illegal to refuse emergency treatment, even if the patient is an illegal immigrant.
  7. Government-mandated procedures will likely reduce doctor flexibility and lead to poor patient care. When government controls things, politics always seep into the decision-making. Steps will have to be taken to keep costs under control. Rules will be put in place as to when doctors can perform certain expensive tests or when drugs can be given. Insurance companies are already tying the hands of doctors somewhat. Government influence will only make things worse, leading to decreased doctor flexibility and poor patient care.
  8. Healthy people who take care of themselves will have to pay for the burden of those who smoke, are obese, etc. Universal health care means the costs will be spread to all Americans, regardless of your health or your need for medical care, which is fundamentally unfair. Your health is greatly determined by your lifestyle. Those who exercise, eat right, don't smoke, don't drink, etc. have far fewer health problems than the smoking couch potatoes. Some healthy people don't even feel the need for health insurance since they never go to the doctor. Why should we punish those that live a healthy lifestyle and reward the ones who don't?
  9. A long, painful transition will have to take place involving lost insurance industry jobs, business closures, and new patient record creation. A universal health plan means the entire health insurance industry would be unnecessary. All companies in that area would have to go out of business, meaning all people employed in the industry would be out of work. A number of hospital record clerks that dealt with insurance would also be out of work. A number of these unemployed would be able to get jobs in the new government bureaucracy, but it would still be a long, painful transition. We'd also have to once again go through a whole new round of patient record creation and database construction, which would cost huge amounts of both time and money.
  10. Loss of private practice options and possible reduced pay may dissuade many would-be doctors from pursuing the profession. Government jobs currently have statute-mandated salaries and civil service tests required for getting hired. There isn't a lot of flexibility built in to reward the best performing workers. Imagine how this would limit the options of medical professionals. Doctors who attract scores of patients and do the best work would likely be paid the same as those that perform poorly and drive patients away. The private practice options and flexibility of specialties is one of things that attracts students to the profession. If you take that away, you may discourage would-be students from putting themselves through the torture of medical school and residency.
  11. Malpractice lawsuit costs, which are already sky-high, could further explode since universal care may expose the government to legal liability, and the possibility to sue someone with deep pockets usually invites more lawsuits. When you're dealing with any business, for example a privately-funded hospital, if an employee negligently causes an injury, the employer is ultimately liable in a lawsuit. If government funds all health care, that would mean the U.S. government, an organization with enormous amounts of cash at its disposal, would be ultimately responsible for the mistakes of health care workers. Whether or not a doctor has made a mistake, he or she is always a target for frivolous lawsuits by money-hungry lawyers & clients that smell deep pockets. Even if the health care quality is the same as in a government-funded system, the level of lawsuits is likely to increase simply because attorneys know the government has the money to make settlements and massive payouts. Try to imagine potential punitive damages alone. When the government has the ability to spend several trillion dollars per year, how much will a jury be willing to give a wronged individual who is feeble, disfigured, or dying?
  12. Like social security, any government benefit eventually is taken as a "right" by the public, meaning that it's politically near impossible to remove or curtail it later on when costs get out of control. Social security was originally put in place to help seniors live the last few years of their lives; however, the retirement age of 65 was set when average life spans were dramactically shorter. Now that people are regular living into their 90s or longer, costs are skyrocketing out of control, making the program unsustainable. Despite the fact that all politicians know the system is heading for bankruptcy in a couple decades, no one is rushing to fix it. When President Bush tried to re-structure it with private accounts, the Democrats ran a scare campaign about Bush's intention to "take away your social security". Even though he promised no change in benefits, the fact that he was proposing change at all was enough to kill the effort, despite the fact that Democrats offered zero alternative plan to fix it. Despite Republican control of the presidency and both houses, Bush was not even close to having the political support to fix something that has to be fixed ASAP; politicians simply didn't want to risk their re-elections. The same pattern is true with virtually all government spending programs. Do you think politicians will ever be able to cut education spending or unemployment insurance?...Only if they have a political death wish. In time, the same would be true of universal health care spending. As costs skyrocket because of government inefficiency and an aging population, politicians will never be able to re-structure the system, remove benefits, or put private practice options back in the system....that is, unless they want to give up hope of re-election. With record debt levels already in place, we can't afford to put in another "untouchable" spending program, especially one with the capacity to easily pass defense and social security in cost.

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i didn't know I double posted. disregard the other one.
 
* counts the pros and cons list *

man there are 6 pros listed and 12 cons on that list


just pointing it out
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Too many people that are "uninsured" CAN afford health insurance. They just choose to drive a newer car, live in a fancier house, etc than they can afford.

Americans want something for nothing and expect that the government will take care of them with regards to healthcare. Guess what? Don't believe for a second that nationalized healthcare will be "free"- your taxes will go up considerably and the quality of healthcare will fall. Affluent Americans will not accept long-waiting lines for MRIs, surgical procedures, doctor's visits, etc. This would result in a two-layered system and stratification of access to healthcare between the rich and the poor.

Yes, the system needs to be overhauled. No, universal healthcare (in terms of a socialized single payor system) will not be the answer.
 
I voted yes. I agree with Goose that a single-payer system is not the answer however. Politics aside, 2 of the proposals for healthcare that are being thrown around this election would have my vote.
 
* counts the pros and cons list *

man there are 6 pros listed and 12 cons on that list


just pointing it out

welp, you can add on the pros if you wish so.. anyone can... :)



ohhhhh lol, so you think i am polarizing people?

oh welp, sorry add more pros then for people who know more about this regard :)
 
welp, you can add on the pros if you wish so.. anyone can... :)



ohhhhh lol, so you think i am polarizing people?

oh welp, sorry add more pros then for people who know more about this regard :)

Also, "hell naw" vs "Yes" doesn't add much to the scientific nature of this poll. ;)
 
I abstain. This poll seems to support the common assumption that universal health care = complete government takeover/socialized medicine, which is incorrect.

I am all for achieving universal health care with very limited govt involvement, yet I am adamently against a complete govt takeover/socialized system, especially at the federal tier. But since the poll implies they are the same thing, I cannot vote either way.

The poll is too generalized for an issue that is far more complicated and it's solutions too complex to answer with a yes or no.
 
not that simple to be a binomial answer. I say yes to an extent but not full coverage.
 
Also, "hell naw" vs "Yes" doesn't add much to the scientific nature of this poll. ;)

hells naw sounds way too cool to not click on
 
We sort of have universal health care in Canada..it's great..I spend the majority of my time in the US. If I'm sick, I just go to Canada and I don't have to pay a penny. I just swipe this card wit a picture on it and the Canadian government gives the doc something like $30..The only thing that sucks is that you have to wait longer to get an appointment because everyone can go to the doctor.
 
"Universal HealthCare" is a very, very broad term. I would support a system of highly subsidized insurance (similar to the successful system in France, and the current Democratic proposals) but not a system where the government becomes the primary provider (similar to the terrible system in Canada, and the 2000 proposal by Hilary Clinton).
 
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This is a topic that will be decided not by health care professionals...or pre-meds, rather by politicians...that is what scares me about it. We will probably end up with something no one is happy with.
 
The U.S. does have universal health care, under EMTALA.
 
I abstain. This poll seems to support the common assumption that universal health care = complete government takeover/socialized medicine, which is incorrect.

I am all for achieving universal health care with very limited govt involvement, yet I am adamently against a complete govt takeover/socialized system, especially at the federal tier. But since the poll implies they are the same thing, I cannot vote either way.

The poll is too generalized for an issue that is far more complicated and it's solutions too complex to answer with a yes or no.

But that's not possible. The inefficiency will be great, and to try to increase, the government will get more involved. It's a lose-lose situation for you. If you don't want government involved in your medical records, in your prescription treatments, etc, then you can't accept universal health care.
 
more affordable? yes, universal? no
 
I abstain. This poll seems to support the common assumption that universal health care = complete government takeover/socialized medicine, which is incorrect.

I am all for achieving universal health care with very limited govt involvement, yet I am adamently against a complete govt takeover/socialized system, especially at the federal tier. But since the poll implies they are the same thing, I cannot vote either way.

The poll is too generalized for an issue that is far more complicated and it's solutions too complex to answer with a yes or no.
QFT:thumbup:
 
As far as the 40 million who are uninsured..most of them can afford it but choose not to. Either because they have the feeling of invincibility, cant justify spending the money, or any other number of reasons.

That is one of the reasons why if I had to pick I would vote no.
 
Too many people that are "uninsured" CAN afford health insurance. They just choose to drive a newer car, live in a fancier house, etc than they can afford.

Americans want something for nothing and expect that the government will take care of them with regards to healthcare. Guess what? Don't believe for a second that nationalized healthcare will be "free"- your taxes will go up considerably and the quality of healthcare will fall. Affluent Americans will not accept long-waiting lines for MRIs, surgical procedures, doctor's visits, etc. This would result in a two-layered system and stratification of access to healthcare between the rich and the poor.

Yes, the system needs to be overhauled. No, universal healthcare (in terms of a socialized single payor system) will not be the answer.
Oops didnt see this one before I posted....:thumbup:
 
The poll is poorly worded. When you say "universal health care", you probably mean nationalized single payer healthcare (and that's why I voted no). But universal health care literally means everyone has health care, which can come about through many ways, such as everyone buying health insurance on their own volition and with their own money.
 
As far as the 40 million who are uninsured..most of them can afford it but choose not to. Either because they have the feeling of invincibility, cant justify spending the money, or any other number of reasons.

That is one of the reasons why if I had to pick I would vote no.

I beg to differ, obviously some people in this board do not understand the true cost of health insurance if it isn't employer subsidized. Do you really think that most families can afford $12,000-15,000 per year for health insurance for a family of four? The reason our wages are so stagnant here in the US is because our yearly raise comes mostly in the form of providing health insurance coverage. The average employer subsidy for family coverage is approximately $10,000. I don't understand how anyone can argue that a family of four making $50-60k per year can afford $10,000 for health insurance. That premium doesn't even take into consideration the ridiculous increase in premiums if someone in the family has a preexisting condition.

I didn't vote in this poll and refuse to do so because the yes/no choices cannot possibly take into account the complexities associated with defining and discussing alternative health care financing options.
 
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I beg to differ, obviously some people in this board do not understand the true cost of health insurance if it isn't employer subsidized. Do you really think that most families can afford $12,000-15,000 per year for health insurance for a family of four? The reason our wages are so stagnant here in the US is because our yearly raise comes mostly in the form of providing health insurance coverage. The average employer subsidy for family coverage is approximately $10,000. I don't understand how anyone can argue that a family of four making $50-60k per year can afford $10,000 for health insurance. That premium doesn't even take into consideration the ridiculous increase in premiums if someone in the family has a preexisting condition.

I didn't vote in this poll and refuse to do so because the yes/no choices cannot possibly take into account the complexities associated with defining and discussing alternative health care financing options.

Why exactly can't a family of four afford 12-15k per year in health insurance? They'll pay about 12k in taxes, conservatively, and have a disposable income of 41k using your average of $50-60k. Assuming rent + utilities is $1500/mo, they now have around ~$23k. $400/mo. in food leaves them with $18k. Maybe budget $10k for the car payment, new clothing, gas, and misc. stuff. You can save 8k more for a rainy day.

This is assuming that the parents work a job with no benefits. The difference is people don't prioritize health insurance.
 
Why exactly can't a family of four afford 12-15k per year in health insurance? They'll pay about 12k in taxes, conservatively, and have a disposable income of 41k using your average of $50-60k. Assuming rent + utilities is $1500/mo, they now have around ~$23k. $400/mo. in food leaves them with $18k. Maybe budget $10k for the car payment, new clothing, gas, and misc. stuff. You can save 8k more for a rainy day.

This is assuming that the parents work a job with no benefits. The difference is people don't prioritize health insurance.

Obviously you've never been head of household, you have other responsibilities such as funding 401k and IRA if you even want to have a decent chance of retirement. Trust me, on $50k a year, retiring at 65 with a decent savings is going to be quite difficult and considering recent economic studies indicate that the average retiree is going to need $250k for health care costs if they live until they are 85 years old. Where are you living where you can pay for rent and utilities for $1500/month? Maybe in a rural area, but rent alone is ~$2,200 to live in a decent area (at least where I live in a suburban area near a large city) (and this is only for a 2 bedroom apartment). Aside from wasting money on renting, most people would prefer to buy considering it will help them build equity. If they buy a house, add home owners insurance and property taxes, as well as housing maintenance. Also don't forget car insurance. Don't forget the bus or metro passes for the spouse that doesn't have a car since you only factored in one car payment. Saving for college, books, activities for children, day care (I don't think you realize that families in the $50,000 income range work long hours so someone has to take care of the children), sports for their children, and so on an so forth. I'm not saying these people can't afford insurance, but the fact is that most people need to save some money as well, which can't possibly be done with the current cost of health insurance. There are so many other costs I don't even have time to list. Not to mention if say, one parent has had cancer or a MI, they are seriously looking at $18,000 to insure that one family member! If they are lucky enough to live in a state with a high risk pool, the cost may be less. Its really sad that most people don't seem to understand the issues facing middle America and I find that troubling considering that the vast majority of Americans fall into the category of "middle America". Sorry for the incoherent babble, it is way past my bed time and I am no longer thinking clearly enough to worry about sentence structure or grammer.

Don't get me wrong either, some people have no concept of money and they are truly hurting the American economy by racking up consumer debt that they will never be able to pay off simply because they want the newest and greatest things. I am not talking about these people, and these people do not constitute majority of the 50 million uninsured Americans. The vast majority of uninsured are hard working Americans, who would like to purchase health insurance if it was affordable.
 
I feel that some people think it is thier natural right to have a large tv in the family room, a mercedes in the driveway, and $200 sneakers. And when they can't pay for things they need, the government bails 'em out.

I'm not necessarily against welfare, because some people really do need it. My point is, government programs get abused all the time, what's to say any goverment related healthcare program won't get abused as well? Even corporations find new ways to bend goverment policy, its just a fact of life.
 
Government take over of health care is something that will cripple this country for good. I served this country in Iraq to maintain my freedoms and not let the government take over something they have no business doing. This country was founded on competitive initiative by every individual who was and are willing to participate in a capitalistic market. Thus, I would recommend everyone to read "Free to Choose" by Milton Friedman and discover for themselves how everyone can contribute to each others well being. If you allow the market to work and get the government out of it, then this nation will prosper. Therefore, if you let the government take over health care, the competition will fall and the motivation for people wanting to become doctors will decrease. Most people who become doctors like to help people and the lifestyle/money. Government control of the health care system is one more step towards communism.

As a people are we that willing and ignorant to give our freedoms away to the government? The people should control the destiny of health care not the government. Thomas Jefferson stated, "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free … it expects what never was and never will be." God gave each individual agency to chose for himself/herself what path they will take. There should be no free rides in life and we should not expect the government to give us this. If we really want to help our fellow man a competitive health care system is the answer. This will allow for cutting edge research and technological innovation. Also, if we want to help our fellow man "We the People" should extend a hand to them and not the government. Dependence on the government will kill our initiative as a people. We must maintain our freedom to choose for ourselves.
 
Government take over of health care is something that will cripple this country for good. I served this country in Iraq to maintain my freedoms and not let the government take over something they have no business doing. This country was founded on competitive initiative by every individual who was and are willing to participate in a capitalistic market. Thus, I would recommend everyone to read "Free to Choose" by Milton Friedman and discover for themselves how everyone can contribute to each others well being. If you allow the market to work and get the government out of it, then this nation will prosper. Therefore, if you let the government take over health care, the competition will fall and the motivation for people wanting to become doctors will decrease. Most people who become doctors like to help people and the lifestyle/money. Government control of the health care system is one more step towards communism.

As a people are we that willing and ignorant to give our freedoms away to the government? The people should control the destiny of health care not the government. Thomas Jefferson stated, "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free … it expects what never was and never will be." God gave each individual agency to chose for himself/herself what path they will take. There should be no free rides in life and we should not expect the government to give us this. If we really want to help our fellow man a competitive health care system is the answer. This will allow for cutting edge research and technological innovation. Also, if we want to help our fellow man "We the People" should extend a hand to them and not the government. Dependence on the government will kill our initiative as a people. We must maintain our freedom to choose for ourselves.

You realize that Marines have a so-called Communist healthcare system right? The VA hospitals are inexplicably free of charge, so as soon as you are willing to make this speech to your fellow veterans (free-loaders on a socialized healthcare system), I'll start paying attention.

I do agree that veterans should stop relying on the government and start paying for their health coverage like everyone else has to though. Or at least until everyone else has universal coverage too.
 
To all those people that say no universal healthcare:

Do you say no because you think it will have bad implications on the healthcare system, or is it because you fear a drop in health-related job salaries? I'm pretty sure, deep inside, a lot of you are saying no for the second reason. You fear that your $200,000+ salary may go down to $150,000+. Don't you feel ashamed to put your personal gains at a higher priority than societies' gain as a whole? Of course, you will say that having universal healthcare will higher taxes and burden citizens with other people's problems; you don't realize that the majority of the American public would rather not pay hundreds of dollars a month to insurance companies who only care for their money. Most Americans are average/below-average income earners. They can't afford to pay insurance companies hundreds of dollars of month.
 
You realize that Marines have a so-called Communist healthcare system right? The VA hospitals are inexplicably free of charge, so as soon as you are willing to make this speech to your fellow veterans (free-loaders on a socialized healthcare system), I'll start paying attention.

I do agree that veterans should stop relying on the government and start paying for their health coverage like everyone else has to though. Or at least until everyone else has universal coverage too.



Listen here. Those "freeloaders" fought for you and I, risking life and limb (and often giving the latter) so that we could live the life we do today. There is no doubt in my mind that they deserve the (meager) pension plans they recieve and the VA benefits. Thats the deal the millitary offers. You'll never be rich, but you will be taken care of in return for risking your life for your country.

I'd love to see you stand before a 90-something y/o WWII vet at your local VA and tell him to stop being a free-loader. He'd probably get up out of his wheelchair or off his deathbed and beat the living crap out of you.
 
The U.S. does have universal health care, under EMTALA.

This is a very misinformed statement. All EMTALA requires is that you receive care so that you DON'T DIE IMMEDIATELY. It says nothing about follow-up care, non-critical care or preventive care. It's like saying that fixing a blown transmission is universal car care.

The US health care payment system is broken because there are too many people that either cannot afford insurance, or choose not to because they have other things that are higher up on their list of priorities. We need to have the relatively well helping to add to the pool of financial resources that pays for the sick, with the expectation that those who are well will one day become sick. This is the fundamental concept of insurance. This has to be the #1a goal of any reform that takes place, with #1b being the control of spiraling costs that have led to a crippling rate of medical inflation. 20 years down the road, if costs are unchecked, the average American will spending 40% of their income in health care. This needs to be averted, whether it be by an overhaul of the broken employer-provided system, or the change to a government-run system. The key to any system, however, is to keep things simple to keep administrative overhead and frustration on the part of the providers and patients to a minimum.
 
To all those people that say no universal healthcare:

Do you say no because you think it will have bad implications on the healthcare system, or is it because you fear a drop in health-related job salaries? I'm pretty sure, deep inside, a lot of you are saying no for the second reason. You fear that your $200,000+ salary may go down to $150,000+. Don't you feel ashamed to put your personal gains at a higher priority than societies' gain as a whole? Of course, you will say that having universal healthcare will higher taxes and burden citizens with other people's problems; you don't realize that the majority of the American public would rather not pay hundreds of dollars a month to insurance companies who only care for their money. Most Americans are average/below-average income earners. They can't afford to pay insurance companies hundreds of dollars of month.

Not all of us that say no think that the system is right; changes certainly need to be made. We just don't agree with the idea of single payer systems that mimic socialized healthcare. There are too many Americans b*tching about the how they can't afford healthcare while they watch the presidential debates on their HD plasma screen and drive their brand new cars and live in their brand new homes. Are there people out there who genuinely cannot afford healthcare? Yes. Should we "take care" of these people? I think so, but only to an extent.
 
Obviously you've never been head of household, you have other responsibilities such as funding 401k and IRA if you even want to have a decent chance of retirement. Trust me, on $50k a year, retiring at 65 with a decent savings is going to be quite difficult and considering recent economic studies indicate that the average retiree is going to need $250k for health care costs if they live until they are 85 years old. Where are you living where you can pay for rent and utilities for $1500/month? Maybe in a rural area, but rent alone is ~$2,200 to live in a decent area (at least where I live in a suburban area near a large city) (and this is only for a 2 bedroom apartment). Aside from wasting money on renting, most people would prefer to buy considering it will help them build equity. If they buy a house, add home owners insurance and property taxes, as well as housing maintenance. Also don't forget car insurance. Don't forget the bus or metro passes for the spouse that doesn't have a car since you only factored in one car payment. Saving for college, books, activities for children, day care (I don't think you realize that families in the $50,000 income range work long hours so someone has to take care of the children), sports for their children, and so on an so forth. I'm not saying these people can't afford insurance, but the fact is that most people need to save some money as well, which can't possibly be done with the current cost of health insurance. There are so many other costs I don't even have time to list. Not to mention if say, one parent has had cancer or a MI, they are seriously looking at $18,000 to insure that one family member! If they are lucky enough to live in a state with a high risk pool, the cost may be less. Its really sad that most people don't seem to understand the issues facing middle America and I find that troubling considering that the vast majority of Americans fall into the category of "middle America". Sorry for the incoherent babble, it is way past my bed time and I am no longer thinking clearly enough to worry about sentence structure or grammer.

Don't get me wrong either, some people have no concept of money and they are truly hurting the American economy by racking up consumer debt that they will never be able to pay off simply because they want the newest and greatest things. I am not talking about these people, and these people do not constitute majority of the 50 million uninsured Americans. The vast majority of uninsured are hard working Americans, who would like to purchase health insurance if it was affordable.

Are you serious? If you're making $50k, sacrifices have to be made. I was extremely generous with $1500/mo in rent and utilities, I pay $220/mo. in Center City, Philadelphia. Decent, suburban area near a large city? Beggars can't be choosers. I can find 4BR houses/apts. for rent in Philadelphia for less than that. You aren't going to be living in luxury, but if you want to save in an IRA or match a 401k, you have to make sacrifices. With no savings, you shouldn't even be considering buying a house. Fare on PATCO (NJ/PA) is 4.90 roundtrip, probably $1200/yr, which was budgeted for in the miscellaneous $10k; it's probably cheaper if you live in the city and ride a bike everywhere you need to go.

Your entire diatribe is ridiculous. What postdoc makes more than $60k? There are bajillions of them around, and I talk to them every day. They all have insurance even though postdoc salary here is probably 45-50k, and many of them have families. Just because you think the standard of living is "decent, suburban area near a big city" with a house you probably can't even pay the closing fees on doesn't mean that this picturesque little image should be a right for everyone.

Yes, health insurance is expensive, and it needs reform. But the point of health insurance is to have it before the ailment, not scramble to find insurance when you suddenly need it and become labeled with "pre-existing" conditions. When health insurance is treated as a "right", suddenly no one budgets for it, and everyone decides a suburban house is more important than staying healthy.
 
There are too many Americans b*tching about the how they can't afford healthcare while they watch the presidential debates on their HD plasma screen and drive their brand new cars and live in their brand new homes. Are there people out there who genuinely cannot afford healthcare? Yes. Should we "take care" of these people? I think so, but only to an extent.

There are two things here - #1 there are people that will not contribute unless you MAKE THEM, because now they are well, and don't understand the need to contribute. It seems like you've unintentionally made an argument FOR government intervention. Also, pick up a journal and you will see numerous studies that preventive care pays for itself for those that cannot truly afford care, because it keeps them out of the ED, and lessens the likelihood of major complications. We just need to get them to go.
 
Not all of us that say no think that the system is right; changes certainly need to be made. We just don't agree with the idea of single payer systems that mimic socialized healthcare. There are too many Americans b*tching about the how they can't afford healthcare while they watch the presidential debates on their HD plasma screen and drive their brand new cars and live in their brand new homes. Are there people out there who genuinely cannot afford healthcare? Yes. Should we "take care" of these people? I think so, but only to an extent.[/quote]

These americans that sit there and bitch about the health care system while watching their HD plasma screen are very few. Most people who don't have health care can't bitch about it....they don't even have a voice. The average income for an American family is about $45,000, and most Americans don't drive BMWs and don't dress in fine Gucci clothing. Most of the people that vote/have a voice are people who are already doing well off.

"Take care" of people only to an extent? I don't think that is correct. How would you define an extent? Let's say some kid from a poor family is in need of immediate surgery-the surgery will cost thousands of dollars-who will pay if the family can't pay? I think that a health care system should function without limits to people who are disadvantaged. Otherwise, if you place limits, you are bound to see inefficieny in the way it functions.

You should come and visit Detroit sometime. You will see things that you may have thought never existed in a first world country. The people who live in the slums of cities like Detroit are not responsible for the crappy lives they live; they live these crappy lives because of the way our society functions. That's why we(the better-off folks) are fully responsible for their well-being
 
You should come and visit Detroit sometime. You will see things that you may have thought never existed in a first world country. The people who live in the slums of cities like Detroit are not responsible for the crappy lives they live; they live these crappy lives because of the way our society functions. That's why we(the better-off folks) are fully responsible for their well-being

I've arrived at plenty of houses on 911 calls for uninsured people who are talking on their Razr and wearing their expensive clothes and shoes, and pocketing their cigarettes and MP3 player. To say that they aren't responsible for their condition is giving them an excuse to give up and live off the system. I've lived on barely above minimum wage and gone to school at the same time, with the only money coming my way from other people being insurance through my parents as a full-time student. If I wasn't paying out for tuition and could pick up more hours working, I could've easily afforded that. I'm not claiming that everyone who is on welfare or government insurance is that way because they've chosen to be foolish, but I'm certainly not willing to take responsibility for the whole lot of them.

One idea that occurred to me to make things more acceptable to me in the event that single-payer healthcare came to fruition would be that medical problems caused by the patient's poor decisions will not be covered. Lung cancer and you smoke two packs a day? Heart problems and you've been abusing cocaine? Cirrhosis and you're in the ED every other week for alcohol abuse? Too bad, you'd better pony up the cash, because the taxpayers aren't going to. I'd find that to be a much more palletable system than complete univeral coverage. And it'd be a good idea to add on a minimum number of checkups by your PCP yearly in order to qualify for coverage. If you can't be bothered to put in the time to see your doctor for one or two checkups a year with a small or nonexistant co-pay, I see no reason that I should have to pay for you to visit the emergency room and then head up to the cath lab for conditions that could've been spotted and managed had you visited the more economically sensible family practitioner's office.

Essentially, it comes down to the fact that I take care of myself and make good decisions. If someone chooses to behave differently, that's their problem, not mine. As Panda Bear said in his blog, "Better to have a low tax economy where people are free to spend their own money how they like. If they decide to get that bitchin’ nose ring instead of their antibiotics, well, that’s just freedom, baby!"
 
Are you serious? If you're making $50k, sacrifices have to be made. I was extremely generous with $1500/mo in rent and utilities, I pay $220/mo. in Center City, Philadelphia. Decent, suburban area near a large city? Beggars can't be choosers. I can find 4BR houses/apts. for rent in Philadelphia for less than that. You aren't going to be living in luxury, but if you want to save in an IRA or match a 401k, you have to make sacrifices. With no savings, you shouldn't even be considering buying a house. Fare on PATCO (NJ/PA) is 4.90 roundtrip, probably $1200/yr, which was budgeted for in the miscellaneous $10k; it's probably cheaper if you live in the city and ride a bike everywhere you need to go.

Your entire diatribe is ridiculous. What postdoc makes more than $60k? There are bajillions of them around, and I talk to them every day. They all have insurance even though postdoc salary here is probably 45-50k, and many of them have families. Just because you think the standard of living is "decent, suburban area near a big city" with a house you probably can't even pay the closing fees on doesn't mean that this picturesque little image should be a right for everyone.

Yes, health insurance is expensive, and it needs reform. But the point of health insurance is to have it before the ailment, not scramble to find insurance when you suddenly need it and become labeled with "pre-existing" conditions. When health insurance is treated as a "right", suddenly no one budgets for it, and everyone decides a suburban house is more important than staying healthy.


You argument holds absoultely no weight, you are assuming that everyone ("post-docs", don't forget that longevity and quality of life is directly proportional to the level of education obtains, so these post-docs clearly aren't the average American) can obtain health insurance through their employer. The vast majority of the 50 million unisured in this country do not have access to employer sponsored health insurance, which leaves them to purchase insurance in the private market. Try raising your family of four in a house where you pay $220 a month, I bet that your quality of life will be very high. Also, most people have health insurance before the pre-existing condition even comes into existence. For instance, I know somewho who was perfectly healthy, busted their a** working and maintaining health insurance throughout their entire life. They want to retire at 60 because they saved enough through hard work and a frugal lifestyle, but because they had cancer at 50 they can no longer buy private health insurance for less than $18k a year. This should not be the case for someone who paid into the system their entire life. Thus, this person is left working another 5 years until they can qualify for Medicare. I am writing this because I am sticking up for the little guy. It disgusts me that people have forgotten who built America and who keep it running.
 
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The very fact that folks read universal health care as single-payer government system is exactly the reason I don't get involved in these debates.

Universal health care means everyone has access to health care. Period. Being against that is like saying you're for genocide or for hunger. Against government controlled single payer system? You can make a good argument. But saying, "No, I think some people shouldn't get healthcare at all" is just bad logic.
 
We're not talking about just plasmas, we're talking about ANY TV AT ALL. You should buy insurance first. If you can afford your cell phone + your TV OR a health insurance payment, which should you choose?

It's thinking like this that is unrealistic. You can't tell me that given the choice between health insurance or a TV and cell phone that you would choose health insurance. I sure as hell know that I wouldn't.

And THAT is the biggest lie fueling this whole issue.

To an extent I agree. There are many whose situation is their own doing. But then there are others who were not blessed with the brains and/or work ethic that you and I were. People forget this all of the time, that these sort of things are gifts, and often those that have them take them for granted, and look down on others. It's the same as judging someone because they are not physically attractive, athletic, or artistically talented - it definitely happens, but it is still wrong.

You can criticize someone for being lazy, and not pulling their weight, but I don't think it's fair to look down on someone because they weren't able to pull themselves out of poverty. It takes motivation and intelligence that some just don't have. Should we give people the resources to live in luxury, hell no! But we should at least help people to lead a reasonably comfortable and healthy life.
 
You should come and visit Detroit sometime. You will see things that you may have thought never existed in a first world country. The people who live in the slums of cities like Detroit are not responsible for the crappy lives they live; they live these crappy lives because of the way our society functions. That's why we(the better-off folks) are fully responsible for their well-being

I don't need to visit Detroit; I live in Memphis. Go dedicate your bleeding heart to those people you are talking about. They'll really appreciate it. Just don't come whining to me with your liberal scheme fails and you can't support your own family.

I don't pretend to understand to what extent we should take care of those that cannot afford healthcare. I just know that no system will ever succeed in which we give every 80 something year old obese, hypertensive smoker a "free" CABG so he/she can live what, 2 more years? Prepare to lower the standard of care in your idealistic system.
 
It's thinking like this that is unrealistic. You can't tell me that given the choice between health insurance or a TV and cell phone that you would choose health insurance. I sure as hell know that I wouldn't.

Its not unrealistic at all to expect people to take care of the necessities (shelter, healthcare, basic transportation) before the luxuries. Yes, TVs and cell phones are a relative luxury.
 
I find it pretty sickening that future doctors don't think everyone should have health care.
 
That's why we(the better-off folks) are fully responsible for their well-being


Write this down. Come back 10, 20 years from now and read it. I guarantee you will no longer believe it.

If not, come look me up for a free steak dinner.
 
I find it pretty sickening that future doctors don't think everyone should have health care.
:thumbdown:

I find it pretty sickening that future doctors (or is it just doctor) don't know to read both sides of the issue.
 
You realize that Marines have a so-called Communist healthcare system right? The VA hospitals are inexplicably free of charge, so as soon as you are willing to make this speech to your fellow veterans (free-loaders on a socialized healthcare system), I'll start paying attention.

I do agree that veterans should stop relying on the government and start paying for their health coverage like everyone else has to though. Or at least until everyone else has universal coverage too.

the VA is hardly free universal healthcare. Each member have to be "service connected" to a certain degree based on a panel of people deciding whether or not the illness that a veteran experiences is military service connected. It's not like all the veterans get a free ride for the rest of their lives.
 
That's a pretty arrogant, liberal-elitist thing to say. Very few people would NOT be willing to sacrifice something to genuinely help another, and even fewer physicians would NOT sacrifice for our fellow man.


We're not talking about just plasmas, we're talking about ANY TV AT ALL. You should buy insurance first. If you can afford your cell phone + your TV OR a health insurance payment, which should you choose?

1. There is no such thing as a liberal-elitist...most elitists are either left-wing socialists or right-wing conservatives. Who is resposible for all all the problems in the world? Die-hard conservatives/socialists who say they are for morals when in reality they are not willing to give a penny to save hungry children in Africa. Liberalism is a much better answer to the world's problems. In fact, if you deeply examine religious/ethical perspectives, you will notice that they are Liberal. Last time I checked, George Bush and Osama Bin Laden were on the same side of the politcal spectrum...

2.I don't find my statement arrogant, I find it humble. Putting society as a whole as a higher priority than your individual gains is the best thing you can do.

3. You don't realize that the average health insurance costs money/month; you can easily get a small tv for less than $100. Saying that having a TV means that you should be able to pay for health insurance is incorrect. Everybody has a TV!
 
Its not unrealistic at all to expect people to take care of the necessities (shelter, healthcare, basic transportation) before the luxuries. Yes, TVs and cell phones are a relative luxury.

Walk a mile... live without a cell phone, TV, or car for a month, and take a couple hundred dollars of the money you take in this month and put it aside for a "health care" fund while being perfectly healthy, and see if that changes your mind at all. I would say that these things aren't so much luxuries, but reasonable comforts.
 
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