Question regarding unlicensed therapy

The short answer is that you will open up a can of worms you probably shouldn't. "Life Coach" is definitely a gray area, particularly with a clinical background....as it wouldn't take much for someone to make a case that you are actually practicing psychology without a license. Just my 2 cents.

let's stop and consider what you are truly asking:

"how can i circumvent the law?"

you have reached a new low, sir.

my advice: go ask ANY other profession how you can practice without a license. attorneys, dentists, podiatrists, physicians, etc.: sound ridiculous? predicting that they will be beyond pissed off? guess how i am about to react.


as for not charging too much. i would ask you what difference this makes.

as for liabilities: tons. you will be practicing without a license, no malpractice insurance, without ANY evidence to back you up. so if there is a major incident, you are screwed. ditto if someone is unhappy with your services. and what would your informed consent say? if you mention psychology then you are practicing without a license ( a felony). and what legal precedent is there for informed consent in life coaching (none). so what good would an informed consent form do you? oops, none. i would also say that MANY schools would kick you right out if they discovered you were doing this. and seeing as the mental health world is small, you will be discovered. or let it slip.

and when you seek a job should you actually get an education, and eventually let slip that you practiced a license you will be looked down upon if not fired.

i have nothing but opprobrium for individuals who are so callous as to ask a group of professionals how they can receive the same rewards without any of the effort. but you have reached a new low in asking how to circumvent the law.

.

born2run,

i considered giving this advice, but i assumed that ANY student in the mental health field would have known about these resources. AND would know the ethical and legal ramifications of this idea.

I am just curious the motivation here and who this is really benefiting? You or clients? The whole reason we have licenses is so one can be accountable for their actions and deemed qualified. If this were ethical, why do we have doctoral programs and licensing boards to begin with? Just something to ponder.

Well you're NOT a couple of a years away from a license since you're an undergrad psych major.

Plus, before you attempt to engage in "life coaching" with anyone you should know that giving advice is in no way, shape, or form what true Psychology is about. Sharing your own experiences with people can actually work AGAINST them. If you want to talk about yourself, go into therapy, don't DO therapy. (I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting to talk about your experiences, I'm just saying that collecting money as a "life coach" while doing it is misleading and dishonest)

Legally I'm sure your butt is probably covered since anyone can be a "counselor" or "therapist" or "life coach" these days. But morally maybe you need to look at this situation. If you want to help people, get a license. It will take you many years but we're all doing it, and we're learning what therapy is and is not.

Self-reflection and critical thought are integral parts of being any kind of therapist (or at least it should be). Just a thought.

in short:

1) psychologist neither give advice nor share their personal experiences. we are trained to provide treatment based upon the best evidence. not on our personal experience. it's what separates us from lay individuals. such as yourself.

2) you have just misrepresented yourself as "about to get a license" in a doctoral level psychology forum. which was a complete lie. i am positive someone with this ethical sensibility will slip up again and misrepresent himself as somehow affiliated with psychology. again, incurring a practcing without a license felony charge.


while i doubt i can dissuade you from this course of action as you are not basing this decision on logic, i will say that you are seeking LEGAL AND BUSINESS advice from your mental health providers. if you really want BUSINESS and LEGAL advice, i would suggest you consult with an mental health atty.

solitude3k said:

Wow, I appreciate everyone's input! I'll answer some questions.. Really, what I want to do is help people who are struggling with life because I have a LOT of experience in that realm, and I have a few methods that I know people will benefit from. I'm not in it for the money; heck $10 per session would satisfy me; I already have a job that pays the bills. I'm an undergraduate psychology major. So please don't worry about my intentions.. for example if I came across someone who was broke and had nowhere to turn I would happily give them advice but the amount of time I spend with them would vary depending on what else is going on in my life and my job.

I did a lot of research on life coaches, and what I've gathered is you don't need an actual state certified license to do this. I simply just want to set up meetings with people struggling and share with them my experiences and advice that I know works. Is it really impossible to do that without a license, assuming I never use the words "therapy" or "counselor" or "psychology" ??

This forum isn't the only place I have gone to for advice; I have shared my plans my old drug counselor and my lifetime psychiatrist, neither of them said that it would be as legally difficult as some of those who responded to my post says..

Any thoughts?

Thanks for the input

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If monetary compensation isn't important, how about volunteering at your local homeless shelter or soup kitchen? Or if you like kiddos, how about at the YMCA or a an after school program? That way you would still get experience and steer clear of the slippery slope that you are about to subject yourself to.

solitude3k said:

I simply just want to set up meetings with people struggling and share with them my experiences and advice that I know works.

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I think you need to research more carefully what psychologists do, because as others said, this isn't it. This would work extraordinarily poorly. And I doubt that even the hackiest life coach is this sort of "be-like-me coach."

I'd look carefully at those motivations, because from what you posted I'm not sure that it's the helping that's driving things...

Well, he could always have the best experiences that apply to all sorts of people varying from different ages, genders, backgrounds, ethnicities, coping styles, personalaties, etc... Ya never know ;-)

edit

As a fellow undergrad, let me say that you should be able to find something that involves clinical experience but is not beyond your level of expertise and knowledge. For instance, I volunteer as a co-facilitator for a support group for sexual abuse victims. It is tough, but it is possible to find things.

Though I agree that what you're describing isn't really what therapy is about.

solitude3k said:

Hey all, I'm a couple years away from a license however I would like to begin a private counseling practice but I am unsure of the laws/regulations regarding this. I'm planning on calling myself a Life Coach, and I'm not going to charge much for my services. That being said, will an informed consent form and waiver be sufficient to protect me from any sort of liabilities?

I would appreciate any input!

Thanks,

Adam

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Short answer: No. An informed consent form and waiver will be insufficient to protect you from any sort of liabilities. Particularly if you misrepresent yourself as a "a couple years away from a license" as you do here.

For the record, an informed consent form & waiver are not sufficient to protect legitimate, licensed clinicians from any & all sort of liabilities. There is always the possibility that your client is going to take your arse to court for something that you may have done.

solitude3k said:

I did a lot of research on life coaches, and what I've gathered is you don't need an actual state certified license to do this.

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Which is a problem in and of itself. I read an article awhile back written about "life coaches", and it was pretty scary. Of course, at the end of the article.....it disclosed it was written by a life coach.

paramour said:

For the record, an informed consent form & waiver are not sufficient to protect legitimate, licensed clinicians from any & all sort of liabilities. There is always the possibility that your client is going to take your arse to court for something that you may have done.

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Yup. A person can be sued for anything, and depending on the circumstances, it can be a VERY serious thing....particularly because of the risks associated with working with people who have psychological challenges. I've worked with enough suicidal patients to know I dot my "I's", cross my "T's", and consult with my supervisor and all applicable people....not only for the safety of myself, but that of my patient.

I would guess even life coaches do more than give advice based on their own experiences...

I don't know how old you are, but if you're the "typical" college aged student, I'm not sure that a business executive would want to take advice from you. I'm not sure the people who typically hire life coaches would either (which I'm guessing tend to be Caucasian upper middle class - basing that on absolutely no research whatsoever). While you may have valuable experiences to share, there's a whole dynamic of having clients older than you. I see that in the therapeutic relationship, and I'm 32 (though I look like I'm in my 20's. No really )

I agree with the others that volunteer work is the better way to go. If you have unique experiences that you'd like to share, then get into a support group or system for people in similar situations. For example, many substance abuse counselors are former addicts. So whatever your area may be, I'm sure there's an organization out there that needs your help.

On a semi-related note, the book "Who Moved My Blackberry" is worth the read for a good laugh. Gives some insight into the life-coach world....

solitude3k said:

Wow, I appreciate everyone's input! I'll answer some questions.. Really, what I want to do is help people who are struggling with life because I have a LOT of experience in that realm, and I have a few methods that I know people will benefit from. I'm not in it for the money; heck $10 per session would satisfy me; I already have a job that pays the bills. I'm an undergraduate psychology major. So please don't worry about my intentions.. for example if I came across someone who was broke and had nowhere to turn I would happily give them advice but the amount of time I spend with them would vary depending on what else is going on in my life and my job.

I did a lot of research on life coaches, and what I've gathered is you don't need an actual state certified license to do this. I simply just want to set up meetings with people struggling and share with them my experiences and advice that I know works. Is it really impossible to do that without a license, assuming I never use the words "therapy" or "counselor" or "psychology" ??

This forum isn't the only place I have gone to for advice; I have shared my plans my old drug counselor and my lifetime psychiatrist, neither of them said that it would be as legally difficult as some of those who responded to my post says..

Any thoughts?

Thanks for the input

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For the first highlighted section I would just ask you how you know that these methods work? Do you know they work because they have demonstrated efficacy evidenced by empirical research in the literature? Or do you know they work because they worked for you. If you had a clue about what you were getting into here, you would know that nothing in psychotherapy/counseling will work for all people. So you certainly don't know that your methods will work. None of us do. Choice of treatment modalities depends on many patient factors, many of which you are unqualified to asses. Further, how are you qualified to implement them? You readily admit you have no formal training in psychology or counseling. Would you have the basic skill set to manage things when they get hairy. Therapy isn't all flowers and happy things. I doubt you have any knowledge that would help you to recognize things that necessitate referral for for alternate medical or mental health services, what the mandated reporting laws are, etc. Can you say negligence or wrongful death liabilities? What do you do with clients who are resistant to your techniques? What do the principles of behavior change say to do in these situations? Are you familiar with this literature? Do you know the appropriate steps to take and how to handle someone who suddenly becomes suicidal or homicidal? Can you recognize a person with Borderline PD? Do you know what can happen to you and your clients when a well intentioned, but unqualified therapist/"life coach" inadvertently plays into their pathology? These are the kinds of things you will be facing. Even in more "normal" populations, personality pathology can be abundant. And just because someone hires a "life coach" doesn't mean they are not going to have underlying/undiagnosed Axis I conditions. Please remember noone one can do anything to protect you from frivolous lawsuits in the litigious society we live in. For having so much life experience as you claim, you seem to be very naive about the litigious nature of our society. Unless you like fending off frivolous lawsuits and paying attorney fees, this is a poorly though out plan that has ethical and legal slippery slopes that people can and will pounce on. If this alone is not enough to deter you, please take a closer look at who is really benefiting in this situation. Trust me, nothing is worse or more dangerous to patients than someone who wants to share their personal stories and think they know know what really works. Perhaps a client deserves a more qualified professional who is aware of the standards and basic ethics of practice, formally educated on the fundamental elements of psychology, principles of behavior change, and the dynamics and implications of what they are doing?

The second highlighted section is unfair to clients and overall poor practice. Frequency of sessions are determined according to the level of impairment and distress of the client, not by your schedule alone. If you are unable to provide services that meet the needs of the patient, you would have an ethical duty to refer them to someone who can.

The third highlighted section demonstrates a poor understanding of counseling or "life-coaching" in general. Personal disclosure and subjective advice giving is what you do with your drunken friend at the keg party. This is not a professional activity and it is not what "life coaching", and certainly not what clincial psychology, or psychotherpay is about. This attitude of "it worked for me and will work for you" fails to take into account important client variables such as situation, cognitive ability/disability, level of social support, etc and demonstrates an overall poor understanding of the complexities of human behavior and the skills necessary for encouraging behavior change. Remember that case studies have poor external validity. Your experience of what worked for you is just that, a case study. Hence, we do not build treatment modalities where the N=1. Personally, I think people would prefer a well trained professional who used science and the empirical literature to guide their treatment (not case studies of themselves) and that is inline with accepted standards of practice, and are qualified to fully understand the dynamics of counseling and the techniques they are using

PS: "a couple years away from licesure" was quite the understatement here, no? I hope you don't have a habit of misrepresenting yourself in your professional life.

What erg923 said x 100. Erg923 you are absolutely correct.

From your second post Solitude3k, you personify exactly what Psychologists are NOT. You come across as the very type of person that makes the profession seem flaky.
Get your PhD/PsyD and then talk.

SIB

Well said Erg.

Even in more "normal" populations, personality pathology can be abundant. And just because someone hires a "life coach" doesn't mean they are not going to have underlying/undiagnosed Axis I conditions.

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Amen to that. And add in high functioning Axis II diagnoses.

Most of the people I see are rather high functioning, though many have depression and anxiety, and some more serious diagnoses pop up periodically. The reason I mention this is I don't work in a typical psychotherapy setting. I work in a health-care setting, where people are coming in to treat a medical condition most of the time. Only through the therapy process are other issues uncovered. So a lot of people may come in for something seemingly benign (like questions about life direction or changes) and these presenting problems may be just the tip of the iceberg to what's beneath the surface; to Erg's point you need to be properly trained to handle whatever they may dump in your lap.

I remember the first few times I sat down with a client to do therapy. I was petrified I would screw up. This was after 2 years of coursework, supervision, ethics training, and a year doing assessments only. It took quite a while to feel comfortable with what I was doing and not feel like a poser. I was heavily supervised by a licensed psychologist. I could not imagine doing any type of "therapy" or "counseling" with just my undergraduate work under my belt.

solitude3k said:

Isn't the basic role of any psychologist to help determine what is bothering someone in their life and provide tools and counsel so they can move past their problems and live successfully?

If any of you don't think that any sort of psychologist's job is to help people who need it.. well that's pretty sad.

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That is a psychologist's job. But it's a difficult one and isn't one a person with no education can do on a whim just because they "want to help people." That's a good reason to go to school and get proper training, but doesn't mean that because the desire is there, or even honest native talent, that the skills are too. And it's irresponsible and not helpful to people to bite off more than one can chew. It's also a surgeon's job to help people and it's something they do well. But I couldn't expect to be a surgeon only after having surgery myself. Maybe my surgery made me realize how important a service that is to offer people and inspired me to go to school to become one myself. But if I decided to start operating on people with only personal experience and no training, well . . . the outcomes aren't going to be so good . . .

I too have had a lot of life experience relevant to this field. My own life experiences are what propelled me to go into medicine initially and then to ultimately choose psychiatry. And I do feel that having worked through my issues in therapy is a wonderful strength to be able to offer to my profession. But it's not enough. Being a therapist isn't the same as being a friend. It's very challenging. The level of responsibility is enormous and frightening, especially when coupled with the lack of any real control over what happens when that client leaves your office. It isn't about giving advice or sharing the wisdom of one's experience. My experience isn't something I generally share with my patients and certainly isn't a road map that I insist they follow. People heal differently. There is no one road to health and the way I did it was mine, not the only right way that works. What my experience has done for me is allowed me to know in my heart that healing IS possible and given me a certain intutive understanding of what it's like to go through the process. But that isn't enough without the skills, training, and supervision from someone more experienced until one has enough experience on their own. It just isn't.

Good for you for going the volunteer route. I think that's a great idea, a good experience, and something you could potentially help a lot of people with.

To be quite honest, I don't think anyone took what you said out of proportion. If anything you have minimized 1) how you have misrepresented yourself and 2) the effect you would have on other people's well-being. It seems to me you have justified everything you've said with your "good intentions". I don't necessarily doubt you have good intentions, but they are naive as well. Many people (but not all) recovering from addiction feel a need to commit selfless acts of good, but this is not what you should be doing.
However, no matter how good your intentions are, what you've been saying on these threads is downright offensive and destructive to the field on psychology. Psychology IS a science, albeit a soft one. You may have had some traumatic, real-world experience that you've been able to overcome, but that has very little to do with another person's therapy/treatment plan. After reading everything you have posted, I really could not care less if this sounds arrogant or self-righteous, but you are young (educationally speaking, at least). Take this time in your undergraduate education to appreciate psychology for what it is. Ask your therapist, a great resource as well. This is the time, along with some graduate school, to discover what it's all about.

solitude3k said:

Hahaha wow. You all are very helpful and I appreciate the advice. I've decided I'm going to apply at a Youth Advocacy program to be a mentor for adolescents.

A lot of you seem to think that I am ill intentioned and "I'm the opposite of what a psychologist is" ... Have we all seem to lost our minds here? Many of you took what I said and blew it way out of proportion. All I wanted to do was help people in my community while making a little money on the side without having to worry about the legal ramifications. "Life coaching" is just one of the routes I found while researching. Based on what many of you suggested as well as my own counselor, it's just too risky to try any sort of private practice without a license. But again, please don't question my experience or intentions; I would be happy to share my experience with anyone but I doubt any of you care.

Isn't the basic role of any psychologist to help determine what is bothering someone in their life and provide tools and counsel so they can move past their problems and live successfully?

If any of you don't think that any sort of psychologist's job is to help people who need it.. well that's pretty sad.



Thanks again for the advice.

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P.S. Your request for us not to question your experience is naive on a couple levels. First of all, you misrepresented yourself, educationally speaking. Secondly, people aren't questioning whether you went through some heavy stuff in your personal life. They are questioning the relevancy of it in regards to a patient's treatment plan/therapy.

solitude3k said:

Hahaha wow. You all are very helpful and I appreciate the advice. I've decided I'm going to apply at a Youth Advocacy program to be a mentor for adolescents.

A lot of you seem to think that I am ill intentioned and "I'm the opposite of what a psychologist is" ... Have we all seem to lost our minds here? Many of you took what I said and blew it way out of proportion. All I wanted to do was help people in my community while making a little money on the side without having to worry about the legal ramifications. "Life coaching" is just one of the routes I found while researching. Based on what many of you suggested as well as my own counselor, it's just too risky to try any sort of private practice without a license. But again, please don't question my experience or intentions; I would be happy to share my experience with anyone but I doubt any of you care.

Isn't the basic role of any psychologist to help determine what is bothering someone in their life and provide tools and counsel so they can move past their problems and live successfully?

If any of you don't think that any sort of psychologist's job is to help people who need it.. well that's pretty sad.



Thanks again for the advice.

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P.P.S.

"All I wanted to do was help people in my community while making a little money on the side without having to worry about the legal ramifications."-----------You should be worried about providing proper treatment, which is not possibly for someone in your position to do.

"I would be happy to share my experience with anyone but I doubt any of you care."---------------It seems, to me at least, that you are a bit too eager to get your story out, whether it is on the SDN forum or your desire to "life coach".

"Isn't the basic role of any psychologist to help determine what is bothering someone in their life and provide tools and counsel so they can move past their problems and live successfully? -------------The "basic role" of a psychologist is up for debate, but the key is you do not have the proper tools to counsel people. That is what I am saying.

If any of you don't think that any sort of psychologist's job is to help people who need it... well that's pretty sad."----------I'm not sure how you rationalized reducing people's reposnses to this, but you are completely mischaracterizing what people have been saying.

solitude3k said:

Hahaha wow. You all are very helpful and I appreciate the advice. I've decided I'm going to apply at a Youth Advocacy program to be a mentor for adolescents.

A lot of you seem to think that I am ill intentioned and "I'm the opposite of what a psychologist is" ... Have we all seem to lost our minds here? Many of you took what I said and blew it way out of proportion. All I wanted to do was help people in my community while making a little money on the side without having to worry about the legal ramifications. "Life coaching" is just one of the routes I found while researching. Based on what many of you suggested as well as my own counselor, it's just too risky to try any sort of private practice without a license. But again, please don't question my experience or intentions; I would be happy to share my experience with anyone but I doubt any of you care.

Isn't the basic role of any psychologist to help determine what is bothering someone in their life and provide tools and counsel so they can move past their problems and live successfully?

If any of you don't think that any sort of psychologist's job is to help people who need it.. well that's pretty sad.



Thanks again for the advice.

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solitude3k said:

Isn't the basic role of any psychologist to help determine what is bothering someone in their life and provide tools and counsel so they can move past their problems and live successfully?

If any of you don't think that any sort of psychologist's job is to help people who need it.. well that's pretty sad.



Thanks again for the advice.

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We want to help people, just with a license and adequate education. You have a lot to learn my friend.

im curious as to what kind of training he has had. Because although he said he would use his own experiences, he *may* have some experience through clinical research and experience. For example, he could have taken a few courses on psychotherapy/social psychology and have some understanding about the practices and ethics (although aren't psychotherapy classes graduate level??), and maybe he could have read and applied a few books about psychotherapy (maybe some CBT books regarding the theory and practice :-D). Now these don't permit a person to do one on one therapy perfectly, or even prepare a person for what is expected in therapy, but it is more than it sounds like he is saying. Now if all he has is experience (overcoming depression, getting passed a phobia) an no knowledge about theory/practice/ethics, etc..., then there might be a problem.

So before we make any harsh judgements, lets hear whats hes got to offer ;-)

The2abraxis said:

im curious as to what kind of training he has had. Because although he said he would use his own experiences, he *may* have some experience through clinical research and experience. For example, he could have taken a few courses on psychotherapy/social psychology and have some understanding about the practices and ethics (although aren't psychotherapy classes graduate level??), and maybe he could have read and applied a few books about psychotherapy (maybe some CBT books regarding the theory and practice :-D). Now these don't permit a person to do one on one therapy perfectly, or even prepare a person for what is expected in therapy, but it is more than it sounds like he is saying. Now if all he has is experience (overcoming depression, getting passed a phobia) an no knowledge about theory/practice/ethics, etc..., then there might be a problem.

So before we make any harsh judgements, lets hear whats hes got to offer ;-)

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I disagree. Without formal graduate training, one can and will not be prepared. Read the APA general principle A on beneficence and nonmaleficence as well as ethical principle 2 on competence. Training in ethics is part of formal graduate training. Had the OP had this training, this would be a non-issue.

solitude3k said:

Hahaha wow. You all are very helpful and I appreciate the advice. I've decided I'm going to apply at a Youth Advocacy program to be a mentor for adolescents.

A lot of you seem to think that I am ill intentioned and "I'm the opposite of what a psychologist is" ... Have we all seem to lost our minds here? Many of you took what I said and blew it way out of proportion. All I wanted to do was help people in my community while making a little money on the side without having to worry about the legal ramifications. "Life coaching" is just one of the routes I found while researching. Based on what many of you suggested as well as my own counselor, it's just too risky to try any sort of private practice without a license. But again, please don't question my experience or intentions; I would be happy to share my experience with anyone but I doubt any of you care.

Isn't the basic role of any psychologist to help determine what is bothering someone in their life and provide tools and counsel so they can move past their problems and live successfully?

If any of you don't think that any sort of psychologist's job is to help people who need it.. well that's pretty sad.



Thanks again for the advice.

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The first highlighted and underlined section is impossible in today's market. Would you like to see a medical doctor who was not concerned with the legal/ethical ramifications of his practices? I think I'd stay away from that guy, know what I mean? The main purpose of licensing for any profession is for quality assurance and so the consumer knows that the professional is indeed accoutable for his actions. A compent service provider always keeps in mind the legal raminfiations and risk of his/her pratices. As a consumer, I wouldnt have it another way, would you?

For the 2nd highlighted section, all I can say is "EXCUSE ME?" Who do think you are? Perhaps you could articulate why no one dare question your experiences and intentions? If I took everything people said at face value, I would be a shoddy therapist and a poor scientist, right? Skepticism and critical thinking/evaluation make good clincial scientists! If you dont want people questioning your rationals/decisions, you are in the wrong field!

The third highlighted section is pretty accurate. Although this seems drastically different from the philosphy and approach you endorsed yesterday. Yesterday you proposed that you wanted to "to set up meetings with people struggling and share with them my experiences and advice that I know works" You wanted to give them "advice, that you know works" Oh yea? How do you know? Did I miss a study in the literature somewhere of a panacea for emotional/existential crisis? As I mentioned yesterday, dolling out "advice" is what friends do with each other. This is not a professional activity, this is not psychotherpay, couseling, or "life coaching." Advice, which is basically telling people what they should do, is unscientific, pushes your values and beliefs onto the client, and cheapens the role and input of the client in their own treatment. Trust me, this shows that you do not appopriately understand the formal (ie., professional) psychotherapuitic relationship. Yes, of course psychology is about helping people figure out problems and facilitating their behavior change, but you have no formal training or knowlege in the dynamics of maintaining and navigating within this unique relationship. This is glarying obvious because you seem oblivious to the inherent probelms that can arise from high levels of self discolsure and providing subjective advice that is has no demostrasted efficacy in the literature.

myelin said:

I disagree. Without formal graduate training, one can and will not be prepared. Read the APA general principle A on beneficence and nonmaleficence as well as ethical principle 2 on competence. Training in ethics is part of formal graduate training. Had the OP had this training, this would be a non-issue.

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oh nononon i am not saing he would be fully prepared at all, but he would be more prepared then we let him out to be. seems like most posts are going on the fact that he only has his experiences, when in fact he may have more. it would be nice to see if he has a general interest in psychology and *some* experience either through labs/readings/or even own personal research.

that way, instead of maybe being seen as a person who thinks their own experiences can help out everyone because they are the best experiences, he could be seen as a psychology student who is a bit confused

The2abraxis said:

oh nononon i am not saing he would be fully prepared at all, but he would be more prepared then we let him out to be. seems like most posts are going on the fact that he only has his experiences, when in fact he may have more. it would be nice to see if he has a general interest in psychology and *some* experience either through labs/readings/or even own personal research.

that way, instead of maybe being seen as a person who thinks their own experiences can help out everyone because they are the best experiences, he could be seen as a psychology student who is a bit confused

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Wouldn't that be even worse, if he has some experience in psychology? If anything, shouldn't he have a better understanding of what a licesnsed psychologist does, and why having taken a few undergraduate courses does not compare to the rigorous practical and theoretical training one undertakes in a doctoral program? In fact, having a smattering of undergraduate knowledge might be even more dangerous if he thinks he knows more than he does and oversteps his limits.

this is one situation in which being sympathetic to someone denigrates the profession.


we should take a hard lined (and legal) approach to this: no license, no deal. no education, no deal.

for one: it seems like he just wants to help out people, which is very nice and honorable. before he was not so aware of the possibilities besides opening a practice, so he thought maybe that was the only way to do it, considering that is the most known/common way of helping people: opening a practice. now he knows and is not confused anymore, so that is cleared. I could say for myself that I wanted to help people out as well, and I thought I could do one-on-one with a client or with supervision, yet at the time I was not aware of the legal ramifications and I was overexagerating my experience and ability. So I even went to a volunteer place and asked If I could do this, and he told me nicely that in order to do that, one had to be an intern or one had to have a license; I wasn't told that I was denigrating the profession and that I was destroying the name of psychologists. I was just helped in clearing up my confusion. This is probably a very common thing; for people's eyes to be bigger than their stomachs for lack of a batter analogy.

for two: he said he wants to help people because he has alot of experience in that area. experience does not only encompass life experience, it also encompasses academic, clinical, research, personal studies, etc.... I'm sure here practices off their experience; you use your experience to know how to solve the problem, what tests to use, what diagnoses to give, etc... He never said anything about not having any academic or research or clinical experience (or anything else :-D), so until he does, he cannot be bashed for wanting to help people from his experiences

So when he is getting flamed for "not understanding what the profession is about" and that "people like hime give a terrible name to the profession", it seems to be based off of a hasty generalization and awfulizing in regard to his confusion

He meant well, and he stopped and chose the right path once corrected. It was an exploratory post; if he has been doing this for 20 years and was intransigent about continuing to do so, then that's a different story. It is now clear that this is the wrong way to go about it (while this may seem obvious to us, go outside our psychology bubble and most people think psychology is psychoanalysis and that's it). He was wrong and is now going to do youth advocacy, no need for personal attacks. We all know that the best way to persuade someone isn't to attack them anyways, but by other means - he doesn't deserve to have to endure scapegoat status for many other wrongs in the field.

the2abraxis:

he was being flamed for other reasons:

1) referring to himself as "a few years from getting a license" in a doctoral level psychology forum, which was a complete lie. he is an undergrad student. when confronted with this lie, he said we were making too much of it. other individuals gave apt analogies for the severity of this lie (e.g., surgery). i stated that if he chose to present himself to the public in this manner he would be commiting several felonies including practicing psychology without a license and fraud. i see no reason to enoucrage or protect such an individual.

2) he referred to having a lot of "experience" with personal struggles. he also referenced two separate mental health professionals whom provided treatment to him. having been in treatment is in no way qualifications for providing treatment. should he have had experience in clinical or research spheres, he would still not be qualified to perform therapy. i would contend he would also have a PI or advisor with whom he could have consulted and learned the illegal and unethical path he was going down. also any undergraduate experience he has is not acceptable qualifications for providing treatment in any jurisdiction in the nation. we should not encourage any unethical or illegal behavior as a profession.

3) he specifically referenced "unlicensed therapy" in the title of his post, which indicates some knowledge of the necessity of a license. i am sure anyone who has taken their first assessment course is reminded of a similar question. so with some knowledge of the legal necessity of a license, he asked a group of professionals how to circumvent the law.

4) i disagree with you on the idea that opening a practice is the most known/common way of helping people. this is ,numerically speakign, exceptionally uncommon. mentoring, volunteering, etc, are MUCH more common. this individual did not state he wanted to help people. he stated he wanted to provide unlicensed therapy because he wanted to help. again wanting to help people is admirable, but circumventing the law and providing services which you are not qualified to provide is not. many individual utilize cognitive distortions in order to commit many heinous acts by justifying the actionas helping the individual. NAMBLA comes to mind as an example of this, although the OP was not in the same severity as this group.



therefore, IMHO, he can be bashed for wanting to act unethically and illegally. furthermore, i contend that attempting to receive the same rewards of a given profession without equitable effort is insulting to any professional. i doubt that anyone would disagree.

The2abraxis said:

for one: it seems like he just wants to help out people, which is very nice and honorable. before he was not so aware of the possibilities besides opening a practice, so he thought maybe that was the only way to do it, considering that is the most known/common way of helping people: opening a practice. now he knows and is not confused anymore, so that is cleared. I could say for myself that I wanted to help people out as well, and I thought I could do one-on-one with a client or with supervision, yet at the time I was not aware of the legal ramifications and I was overexagerating my experience and ability. So I even went to a volunteer place and asked If I could do this, and he told me nicely that in order to do that, one had to be an intern or one had to have a license; I wasn't told that I was denigrating the profession and that I was destroying the name of psychologists. I was just helped in clearing up my confusion. This is probably a very common thing; for people's eyes to be bigger than their stomachs for lack of a batter analogy.

for two: he said he wants to help people because he has alot of experience in that area. experience does not only encompass life experience, it also encompasses academic, clinical, research, personal studies, etc.... I'm sure here practices off their experience; you use your experience to know how to solve the problem, what tests to use, what diagnoses to give, etc... He never said anything about not having any academic or research or clinical experience (or anything else :-D), so until he does, he cannot be bashed for wanting to help people from his experiences

So when he is getting flamed for "not understanding what the profession is about" and that "people like hime give a terrible name to the profession", it seems to be based off of a hasty generalization and awfulizing in regard to his confusion

Click to expand...

I must say, you are way off base here. Like I stated earlier, I did not doubt his intentions. Helping out people is nice and honorable, but providing useless, potentially harmful advice under the guise of a "life coach" is anything but helping people out. It sounds like he did get the message, which is a good thing. However, I see no reason why harsh criticism was not warranted, as 1) He misrepresented himself and 2) Showed a clear lack of knowledge and understanding about what it takes to build and maintain a healthy patient/therapist relationship. Self-disclosure is not one of them.
As PsyDr stated before, opening your own practice is far from being the most common way people help others out. Where are you getting that from? Secondly, your admission that at one time, you, too, exaggerated your experience and abilities does not justify anyone else doing so. No one is banishing you or the OP to hell for such things, but, IMHO, it is critical that he knows how dangerous it is, especially in such a relatively new field where misconceptions run rampant.
Your point of what his experiences could encompass does not have a place here. We deal with what posters give us, and that is all we can go off of. He had opportunities to clarify his experiences (even though it would not have mattered either way). If he had some experience at a suicide hotline or had done a couple years off research with Bipolar Disorder, would it have made his practice more legitimate and less unethical? No.
Lastly, as we have learned throughout history, a person's intentions, no matter how good, does not justify their behavior. I am sorry if I am getting off on a rant here, but it irks me when people go into psychology because all of their friends say they give great advice (And yes, I know this is not what the OP said). This gross misconception, along with MANY others (including what the OP has asked), of what psychology is must be corrected

yes, i love arguments, ok here we go :-D:

first, he may have misrepresented himself in some respects, but there was also alot of assuming going on when there werent many facts (such as his "experience").

second, my personal example i provided does not justify anyone else doing so (as you mentioned), but it was meant to show how people can make mistakes like he did (thinking it was ok to open a practice) when a passion is blinding someone. it was meant to show how a person can be so caught up in wanting to help people (like i was/still am :-D) and not fully recognize the legal/typical/expected processes involved. and like said before, people may think of psychology as someone who is in their own practice, sitting on a couch, giving psychoanalysis, which is a common misconception. not everyone outside of psychology (or even in undergrad psychology) know about the processes that psychology undergoes. I'll say before I started to do my own research, I did not even realize that a person needed a license (alot has changed since then haha). I am just saying we need to get out of our own viewpoints about what "should" be done and look at what his/her viewpoint may be. Sure, telling them what is right is needed, but attacking his intentions/experiences/viewpoints/beliefs is just wrong, ecspecially if he is ignorant to the whole process (that is no way to teach :-D). You did state that you hate when people come to psychology just because they "have good advice", but if they have a passion for helping people (like he/she does), we should be inviting them and teaching them about the processes involved instead of saying "oh I hate people like you!". Its a complicated process, but also a learning process, and the field can always use people who have a strong passion for helping others

Finally, this is the greatest "fallacy" (for lack of a better word) it seems is being made: that he acually made his own practice without a license. We know he didn't, and that was mainly just a way for him to get out his desire to help people. Now his intentions *seem* good (not 100% sure :-D), and when you said this doesnt justify his behavior, what behavior did he exhibit? Like I said he didn't actually do it, it seems as if he was merely confused and wanted guidance. If anything, he did the right thing coming here looking for advice on where to go and what to do.

And finally again, this whole conversation is just way off topic, but arguing is fun haha

This is an aside from the original post, no need to beat a dead horse. I wonder if as field we've polarized ourselves too far from the service aspect in that people are excoriated when they mention they want to help people. Perhaps being a businessman who raises funds and does advocacy or being a lawyer and lobbying for patient rights is overall a more effective way to help others, but it seems like admitting you want to help people is akin to being adorned with a scarlet letter.

Whether we like it or not, what we do is with people. Surely there are many that find a balance between being an effective scientist and being congenial, but there are many who work with patients who fail on the latter count. I wouldn't go to a mechanic and think, "gee, that guy was a complete a-hole but did a good job on my car, I guess his attitude doesn't matter." Sanitizing the field of all people who strongly like to help others I don't feel is beneficial. Wanting to help people surely isn't enough, but it shouldn't be a rule-out criterion either.

Consider four types of people:

A clinical scientist who doesn't want to help people.
A practitioner whose first love is science, but likes to help people along the way.
A practitioner who places great value on helping people, and happens to enjoy the science part of it as well.
A practitioner who has great social skills but little scientific acumen.

We would all consider the fourth type of person insufficient, and many psychologists would consider themselves similar to the second. But should we purge the field of the third? I would say not. We are still working with people, not robots. Even if we were working with robots, science isn't done in a vacuum - if someone likes to build robots that help the handicapped and he wants to help people first, then more power to him in my opinion as long as he has the scientific skills. I understand that there is stigma in that often people misperceive psychology as simply helping people by talking through problems, but to polarize it on the other end I don't believe is desirable either.

Because we are in such high demand there really isn't a need to consider the patient's happiness with our services, but if competition ever increases, then certainly it will become of importance. I believe we should consider the vitriol and the danger of polarizing the issue when considering this matter.

The2abraxis said:

yes, i love arguments, ok here we go :-D:

first, he may have misrepresented himself in some respects, but there was also alot of assuming going on when there werent many facts (such as his "experience").

second, my personal example i provided does not justify anyone else doing so (as you mentioned), but it was meant to show how people can make mistakes like he did (thinking it was ok to open a practice) when a passion is blinding someone. it was meant to show how a person can be so caught up in wanting to help people (like i was/still am :-D) and not fully recognize the legal/typical/expected processes involved. and like said before, people may think of psychology as someone who is in their own practice, sitting on a couch, giving psychoanalysis, which is a common misconception.


Finally, this is the greatest "fallacy" (for lack of a better word) it seems is being made: that he acually made his own practice without a license. We know he didn't, and that was mainly just a way for him to get out his desire to help people. Now his intentions *seem* good (not 100% sure :-D), and when you said this doesnt justify his behavior, what behavior did he exhibit? Like I said he didn't actually do it, it seems as if he was merely confused and wanted guidance. If anything, he did the right thing coming here looking for advice on where to go and what to do.


And finally again, this whole conversation is just way off topic, but arguing is fun haha

Click to expand...

-----Well, just for fun's sake, I will continue the argument even though it seems everything has been settled.

1) This statement is clearly minizmizing what the OP did. He said he was "a couple years away" from being a licensed psychologist. Then we went on to find out that he was still in undergraduate school. On top of being several years away, the assumption that he will actually MAKE it into a program, or makes it into a program directly out of undergrad, makes the misrepresentation all that more egregious. Making it into a Clinical Psychology program is a very difficult thing to do.

2) You stated there was a lot of assuming going on when there weren't that many facts. I fail to see the logic in this. Like I stated earlier, all we can do is go off on what the OP has given us, and to do anything OTHER than that would be assuming. You keep failing to address that fact that he had many chances to clarify his experiences. This is all moot anyways, because no matter what his experiences were, whether it be a lot of research or clinical experience, it would still fail to qualify his own practice as an ethical enterprise.

-----I am well aware that people make mistakes, passions can blind, and so on and so forth. I made thousands in my life, as I'm sure everyone has here. No one has disputed that in this forum. However, we can learn from our mistakes through a variety of ways, including causing irreparable harm to others (which practicing unlicensed psychology might do) and to yourself (being sued for hefty sums of money). So while everyone makes mistakes, I will sleep better knowing he learned how outrageous his potential actions are on the forum than in a courtroom.

"Finally, this is the greatest "fallacy" (for lack of a better word) it seems is being made: that he acually made his own practice without a license. We know he didn't, and that was mainly just a way for him to get out his desire to help people. Now his intentions *seem* good (not 100% sure :-D), and when you said this doesnt justify his behavior, what behavior did he exhibit? Like I said he didn't actually do it, it seems as if he was merely confused and wanted guidance.

--------Wow, are...are you kidding me?

-----Arguing is fun, but I think this topic is done with, lesson learned. If you want to continue you can PM me.

.

.

Boston2k said:

This is an aside from the original post, no need to beat a dead horse. I wonder if as field we've polarized ourselves too far from the service aspect in that people are excoriated when they mention they want to help people. Perhaps being a businessman who raises funds and does advocacy or being a lawyer and lobbying for patient rights is overall a more effective way to help others, but it seems like admitting you want to help people is akin to being adorned with a scarlet letter.

Whether we like it or not, what we do is with people. Surely there are many that find a balance between being an effective scientist and being congenial, but there are many who work with patients who fail on the latter count. I wouldn't go to a mechanic and think, "gee, that guy was a complete a-hole but did a good job on my car, I guess his attitude doesn't matter." Sanitizing the field of all people who strongly like to help others I don't feel is beneficial. Wanting to help people surely isn't enough, but it shouldn't be a rule-out criterion either.

Consider four types of people:

A clinical scientist who doesn't want to help people.
A practitioner whose first love is science, but likes to help people along the way.
A practitioner who places great value on helping people, and happens to enjoy the science part of it as well.
A practitioner who has great social skills but little scientific acumen.

We would all consider the fourth type of person insufficient, and many psychologists would consider themselves similar to the second. But should we purge the field of the third? I would say not. We are still working with people, not robots. Even if we were working with robots, science isn't done in a vacuum - if someone likes to build robots that help the handicapped and he wants to help people first, then more power to him in my opinion as long as he has the scientific skills. I understand that there is stigma in that often people misperceive psychology as simply helping people by talking through problems, but to polarize it on the other end I don't believe is desirable either.

Because we are in such high demand there really isn't a need to consider the patient's happiness with our services, but if competition ever increases, then certainly it will become of importance. I believe we should consider the vitriol and the danger of polarizing the issue when considering this matter.

Click to expand...

well said

edit- PSYDR, i completly missed your last post, ill try to respond :-D

1. he did misrepresent himself pretty bad. i wont disagree on that haha

2. this is true as well

3. this is where I may disagree (not all of it :-D). as you saw it, he asked "how can i circumvent the law", but this may be a faulty interpretation. it could be seen as "what is the best way i can help people out and apply what I know/learned to help better people". although this may not be very practical (like u said, therapy without a good amount knowledge/experience/license is a bad idea for the patient), it seemed as if he just wanted to help em out (which is true because now he is doing some volunteer work!).

4. i don't know about this, im sure when people unaware of psychology and its practices, one thinks of Freud sitting down with a person and talking about their mother (and of course falic objects :-D).

overall, the main reason you bashed him "wanting to act unethically and illegaly) seemed to be based off the fact that he was implying that he wasnted to circumvent the law. i can admit (as stated before) i went through this same "phase" but there was no intention of breaking the law, just the urge to practice some techniques i thought could be helpful. of course this may not be the same situation, it seems pretty darn close.

But, the main reason (overall) he seemed to be flamed was because he was showing what is wrong with the profession, and he was showing how people don't respect and appreciate psychology. This may be true, but is flaming the best way to get the message of respect? it actually seems to do the opposite! of course, if someone had actually been caught practicing without a license or doing other illegal things, then it is good to "flame" him and put him in his place (jail or a huge fine/jail). but when a person wants to learn, flaming seems to be counter-intuitve

this reminds me of a friend who wanted to do an interview with a psychology professor, but got denied because the professor said "everything i have to state is in my research papers". i know he was trying to get the respect that he deserved, and to some people it seems honorable. but to everyone in my class that heard that lost respect for the man, because he was so worried about staying on his high horse instead of spreading the knowledge that ultimately he wants to spread. so not only did he lose the chance to spread his knowledge, he lost respect in the process.

this kind of seems to be what is going on (idk if its true, please feel free to flame me :-D). a person comes in looking for help on a certain subject he is not all to familiar with, and instead of being told the correct answer (he eventually was :-D) and overall gaining a learning experience, he is flamed for not respecting/fully understanding psychology as a profession.

i understand where the flame may be coming from, but is the right way to gain respect and spread knowledge about an exciting and rewarding field?

another good example: i was talking to my girlfriends uncle, and she mentioned how I was studying psychology. He shrugged and said, "well, there may not be much of a need for that now". I had three options: "flame" him and tell him how ignorant he was, and that he should respect psychology, and that people like him are the ones who give a stigma to psychology, or I could tell him that there is much more to psychology then a thinks (there are workers in buisness, engineering, the health field, universities, etc...) and that there is an increasing need for psychologists, or I could have ignored him. I think if I choose the first one, he would have completly hated me and psychology for that matter, maybe even seeing psychologists as too prideful. The second option worked quite well, because he gained knowledge about something he did not know about, and he had more respect for psychology (he was a buisness guy, and he wasn't aware of what psychologists did in that area). The third option probably would have been better than the first as well :-D So it seems that wanting the respect and understanding of psychology is very good and should be done, the manner in which it is done can sometimes be harmful to our intentions

and now i have officially beaten a dead horse lol

Boston2k said:

Because we are in such high demand there really isn't a need to consider the patient's happiness with our services, but if competition ever increases, then certainly it will become of importance. I believe we should consider the vitriol and the danger of polarizing the issue when considering this matter.

Click to expand...

I can only speak from my personal experiences, but I have gotten a vastly different impression from the field. I absolutely think "people skills" are important in this field, even for people like myself who are on an academic track. I haven't seen people minimizing that aspect anywhere.

The issue is that "I want to help people" is a statement of little substance. Very few people are probably thinking "I want to hurt people" when picking a profession Furthermore, a large portion of the populous seems to think psychology is a good profession for those in the #4 category. Part of the reason that has happened is because psychology has been more accepting of this in the past (I think in part because psychology used to be a "softer" science than it is today).

I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't feel like we are excluding anyone because they "want to help". However I DO feel like people get excluded because they think "wanting to help" enough makes up for other faults, and it doesn't. Take a stroll by the pre-med forum and you'll similar things "I really want to help, but I'm really bad at science and thinking and don't like to work hard, why can't I be a doctor?". Wanting to help is on about the same level as having a pulse, its necessary, but not sufficient. That's why people are told to avoid it in personal statements. I just haven't seen anyone acting like misanthropes are good therapists, just people saying that just because you really WANT to help doesn't mean you'll be good at it.

Ollie123 said:

I can only speak from my personal experiences, but I have gotten a vastly different impression from the field. I absolutely think "people skills" are important in this field, even for people like myself who are on an academic track. I haven't seen people minimizing that aspect anywhere.

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Absolutely agreed. Especially when study after study has shown that it's the therapeutic relationship that heals.

And as for wanting to help, I think it's possible to do that in any field. I was helped when a mechanic installed new working brakes in my car. It was a life-saving procedure actually. The real question then becomes what is it about psychology (or medicine) that draws you to picking that way of helping?

Boston2k said:

Because we are in such high demand there really isn't a need to consider the patient's happiness with our services, but if competition ever increases, then certainly it will become of importance. I believe we should consider the vitriol and the danger of polarizing the issue when considering this matter.

Click to expand...

I'd have to disagree with this. For one, the therapeutic relationship is probably the most important aspect of psychological treatment, regardless of what techniques or theoretical orientation you operate from. If your clients aren't satisfied with you, they'll stop coming and there goes your income. Drop out rates are quite high, so to think we can neglect client satisfaction simply because of high demand will likely lead to loss of patients. I've seen many clients who had been through at least a few therapists before they found the right "fit." I'd guess they were dissatisfied with their previous therapists. I also had a few that were dissatisfied with me They either aren't engaged in the process or they stop coming. It's an interesting feeling to be "fired" by a patient the first time.

the2abraxis:

#3. eh, i can see your point. however if i asked a group of tattoo artists how i could practice without a license i am sure the ethical ones would be upset. i see nothing wrong with being protective of my profession, and supportive of the law. i think it is a significant mistake to denigrate our profession and say anyone could do it without training. but then again i am baffled by any doctors that ask ppl to address them by "Dr. firstname".

regarding him being flamed for pointing out what is wrong with the profession, i do not believe that i ever attacked him for pointing out anything wrong with the profession. therefore, i cannot defend a position i did not take. correct me if i am wrong, as i am being lazy and not rereading my posts.

as your your point about attacking someone being counterproductive to learning: i agree. if this gentleman had honestly presented himself and asked, "guys i am an undergrad student. is there any way i can legally do therapy without any graduate training?" i would have kindly answered. or advised him to contact his local BOP, so that he might learn through experience. however, he lied about who he was and indicated an intention to act. i vehemently attacked him as i did not believe that he was who he said he was, as this is first semester stuff. i also told him that he had reached a new low in asking a group of professionals how to get the same rewards as them without any of the effort. i feel no shame in doing so.

in regards to your last point/illustration: i run into this situation several times a month (although not with your girlfriend, although i am sure she is a charming lady). and i do not flame these individuals. i start by asking them what their evidence is. listen to their opinions/evidence, and present research that demonstrates that psychological interventions are effective. sometimes individuals are interested. sometimes they hold onto beliefs for personal reasons. sometimes they are surprised that i can quote statistics about treatment. occasionally they call me names and leave. sometimes i find i must apologize for colleagues' missteps. i also affirm that many prefer other choices in treatment. i had a similar discussion with some model who told me that some weird ritual involving dance completely and immediately healed schizophrenia. she did not change her position, but she seemed concerned about her inability to present any backing evidence for her statements.

as a group, i believe we should stand up for our profession in a professional manner. i think to err either way, be it flaming someone for reasonable requests, or encouraging them in damaging courses of actions, is dangerous.


i will also state that there have been many instances wherein ppl came to this board for help and many were very helpful. i know Neuro-Dr. once found a complete stranger who came to this board a neuropsychologist in a rural area. in other cases individuals have been told that we cannot provide psychological advice on this board as per the agreed upon terms of usage.