NYTimes: "Med student burnout"

And of course, from the "Me Too" crowd:

http://allnurses.com/forums/f195/med-school-burnout-345206.html

Just a note: We're also discussing the article in pre-allo. If you allopathic people have some ideas, insights or responses that would be helpful for us pre-meds, don't hesitate to respond...

Tired said:

And of course, from the "Me Too" crowd:

http://allnurses.com/forums/f195/med-school-burnout-345206.html

Click to expand...

Hahaha, everytime a nurse complains, it brings a smile to my face

pianola said:

Just a note: We're also discussing the article in pre-allo. If you allopathic people have some ideas, insights or responses that would be helpful for us pre-meds, don't hesitate to respond...

Click to expand...

It's not really that bad

turkeyjerky said:

It's not really that bad

Click to expand...

I completely concur. Not to say medical school is not a toilsome experience; it is. However, that article amped up the drama to a height I think is slightly overwrought. My opinion, obviously, nothing more.

Depends on your expectation. My advice for pre-allo: Set your expectations about med school low. Expect that you won't have time for any fun and you will be constantly studying. Expect your relationship to fail. Expect that no matter how hard you study you will be at or near the bottom of your class. Expect it to completely suck.

If you do the above, you will be pleasantly surprised that yes it does suck, but it doesn't suck as hard as you'd thought it would.

badasshairday said:

Depends on your expectation. My advice for pre-allo: Set your expectations about med school low. Expect that you won't have time for any fun and you will be constantly studying. Expect your relationship to fail. Expect that no matter how hard you study you will be at or near the bottom of your class. Expect it to completely suck.

If you do the above, you will be pleasantly surprised that yes it does suck, but it doesn't suck as hard as you'd thought it would.

Click to expand...

and id also add try not to crap urselves when u realize ur just average.

I think the article was a little over the top as well.
My mom read it and called me to make sure I wasn't having any suicidal thoughts.

I think that the people who are at such extremes are those who don't want to be doing it in the first place. They either thought they wanted to but don't have the courage to quit, their parents are forcing them to and they don't have the courage to stand up for themselves, or they're the type of people who can't handle getting one question wrong. All 3 are exactly the opposite type of who I want as my doctor.

I do agree that med school definitely has some lows. There are many times I talk to my friends are realize that I have no life. None...and it's more than just a little depressing from time to time. I question whether or not I'm making the right decision, if I'm really up to the challenge, if I have the intelligence, if I'm really ok with having a career dictate my life. But, I couldn't see myself doing anything else and that gets me through one day at a time.

I think burnout is a problem, but I think the article is just an extensive whine session. The first two years of medical school suck. You're in class and lab all day, studying in the evening and have much less free time than in undergrad. That's certainly a huge stressor. I think many students are hit by the reality that they really have to work hard to master the material. The average med student was a stellar student -- top of his/her class in undergrad and has been a star since grade school. Well, most are no longer superstars in med school and their ego take a real blow -- they're demoralized.

I think that's a big part of it.

Ed

badasshairday said:

Depends on your expectation. My advice for pre-allo: Set your expectations about med school low. Expect that you won't have time for any fun and you will be constantly studying. Expect your relationship to fail. Expect that no matter how hard you study you will be at or near the bottom of your class. Expect it to completely suck.

If you do the above, you will be pleasantly surprised that yes it does suck, but it doesn't suck as hard as you'd thought it would.

Click to expand...

Or at least it will meet your expectations.

edmadison said:

I think burnout is a problem, but I think the article is just an extensive whine session. ... The average med student was a stellar student -- top of his/her class in undergrad and has been a star since grade school. Well, most are no longer superstars in med school and their ego take a real blow -- they're demoralized.

Click to expand...

I vaguely remember their definition of burnout was pretty soft. There is no way anyone in their right mind can be happy-go-lucky about spending hours upon hours studying, followed by this crushing fear of failure or harming patients by not knowing enough... along with being lumped in with a whole bunch of smart, hard working people... it is difficult to be okay with being just average. The kick to the ego is a huge factor to at least some of us. The superstars of the class are probably burned out b/c of how much effort it takes to be there. I have a love/hate relationship with med school: the more time I have to spend studying/memorizing details, the more I hate it; the more time I get to spend with doctors or patients, the more I love it. But I knew I was going to feel this way in the first place, so my expectations were met almost dead-on.

It is very entertaining to listen to all the other non-med students chime in with, "Well, I'm not in med school, but I am in a master's program and it's kind of the same..." Ok, it is kind of the same... except if you fail you're just going to disappoint Daddy... not kill people. The nurses have a point that they are stuck in a powerless position even after completing their training, but if they wanted the position of power, they'd have gone to med school. You don't go to nursing school expecting to have the power; you go expecting to be a nurse who gets told what to do by a doctor. Or at least you should.

well im past the halfway mark in my first semester and i'd be lying if i said it wasn't a little stressful. But I have to echo the "what did you expect?" sentiment. I'll agree that you can't know what it's like unless you actually do it, but I wasn't exactly caught off guard.

I feel that there are a very large fraction of my class are talented people who are definitely capable of finishing their degree, but burn out because they just aren't the right psych profile, so to speak. You have to really want this and not really want anything else for the workload to be bearable in my opinion.

I think what keeps me from burning out is a combination of my burning desire to do this and also the fact that years ago in college I got bored of the party-goer traveller lifestyle. I'm abnormal in that respect, I really don't get excited about the prospect of partying till the sun comes up or flying to europe as often as possible (i've been there once I dont need to go back for a while). When my friends from college or high school relay their club and bar stories from the weekend I dont feel like i missed out. A large fraction of my class, maybe more than half, complain of not having enough time to have fun - but to them "have fun" really means drink till you drop 4 nights a week. Strange career choice given their appetite for partying.

The way medical education is structured at the moment it's really only for the workaholics. I don't want to say that a lot of people get into school who "don't have what it takes", because that implies inferiority. Rather many get in who are not a right fit.

VoiceofReason said:

A large fraction of my class, maybe more than half, complain of not having enough time to have fun - but to them "have fun" really means drink till you drop 4 nights a week. Strange career choice given their appetite for partying.

Click to expand...

Just because you've grown out of it doesn't mean the rest of us need to. Not everyone's version of fun is the same, and I think it takes awhile for people to get the need to drink til they drop out of their system. Along the same lines, haven't you heard about all the drug addict doctors out there? Where do you think that mentality came from? I imagine this drug abuse + burnout mentalities probably go together.

scotties123 said:

and id also add try not to crap urselves when u realize ur just average.

Click to expand...

So true:

This articule shouldn't shock anyone who doesn't live a sheltered, lonely life.

VoiceofReason said:

well im past the halfway mark in my first semester and i'd be lying if i said it wasn't a little stressful. But I have to echo the "what did you expect?" sentiment. I'll agree that you can't know what it's like unless you actually do it, but I wasn't exactly caught off guard.

I feel that there are a very large fraction of my class are talented people who are definitely capable of finishing their degree, but burn out because they just aren't the right psych profile, so to speak. You have to really want this and not really want anything else for the workload to be bearable in my opinion.

I think what keeps me from burning out is a combination of my burning desire to do this and also the fact that years ago in college I got bored of the party-goer traveller lifestyle. I'm abnormal in that respect, I really don't get excited about the prospect of partying till the sun comes up or flying to europe as often as possible (i've been there once I dont need to go back for a while). When my friends from college or high school relay their club and bar stories from the weekend I dont feel like i missed out. A large fraction of my class, maybe more than half, complain of not having enough time to have fun - but to them "have fun" really means drink till you drop 4 nights a week. Strange career choice given their appetite for partying.

The way medical education is structured at the moment it's really only for the workaholics. I don't want to say that a lot of people get into school who "don't have what it takes", because that implies inferiority. Rather many get in who are not a right fit.

Click to expand...

Honestly, med school isn't what I expected. At all. I feel like I spend more time learning complete BS (not the hard sciences, but rather the *lets sit in a circle and talk about our feelings for two hours a week* classes) and doing BS busywork than anything else (and busywork is more exhausting to me than the actual learning.) I swear one of our classes is a de facto "Why you should believe in socialism" class, and they try shoving this **** down our throats nonstop.

Does that ever end?

Also does every other school have a "professionalism" course or mark that they threaten to fail you in if you don't attend every mandatory BS lecture and event?

I'll admit it, I'm burned out already, and its only been a few months.

turkeyjerky said:

It's not really that bad

Click to expand...

The first 2 years aren't all that bad. You know what you need to learn. You are given the material and you have discrete lectures. It is basically a fast moving undergrad but you still have plenty of free time.

Third year is a different beast. The hours you spend in the hospital are at times horrendous (surgery rotation) and many times you dont feel like you are using your time efficiently. The sheer time demands are incredible and I think that is one of the major sources of burnout. On some rotations you wake up at 4am and work until 7 or 8pm come home and study until you fall asleep and hopefully get 6 hours of sleep. 12 hour days become early days and you get excited because you will actually have enough time to go home and do some studying. You can literally go days without seeing the sun because you get there before it's up and after it's set. Add to the chronic sleep deprivation the lack of time to get normal things done like going to the bank or grocery store, not being in day light for days at a time, being around suffering and dying people and always having to impress someone it is very easy to lose the forest for the trees. It is an interesting transition you have to make and if you dont adapt quickly it is very easy to get burned out.

SurebreC hit the nail on the head. If you dont step back and appreciate the situation and let things go, you will be miserable.

Some one get this guy a wambulance. Passing med school is a joke, acing it is much harder.

xanthomondo said:

Honestly, med school isn't what I expected. At all. I feel like I spend more time learning complete BS (not the hard sciences, but rather the *lets sit in a circle and talk about our feelings for two hours a week* classes) and doing BS busywork than anything else (and busywork is more exhausting to me than the actual learning.) I swear one of our classes is a de facto "Why you should believe in socialism" class, and they try shoving this **** down our throats nonstop.

Does that ever end?

Also does every other school have a "professionalism" course or mark that they threaten to fail you in if you don't attend every mandatory BS lecture and event?

I'll admit it, I'm burned out already, and its only been a few months.

Click to expand...

Are you at RWJMS? I'm at NJMS and while I feel like we have an overbearing humanism initiative here (i fancy myself a humanist, i just mean the idea is pushed and presented enough so as to be overbearing) we don't have a ton of work to do that I would call pure bull****. We don't really have mandatory discussions about feelings unless i missed all of them and I'm failing and just dont know it. It's mostly the organization of the curriculum that i feel needs adjusting.

That and every time i commit a new genetic disorder to memory, the last thing i read about it is that it's extremely rare. And i sigh pretty heavily.

Jwax said:

Just because you've grown out of it doesn't mean the rest of us need to. Not everyone's version of fun is the same, and I think it takes awhile for people to get the need to drink til they drop out of their system. Along the same lines, haven't you heard about all the drug addict doctors out there? Where do you think that mentality came from? I imagine this drug abuse + burnout mentalities probably go together.

Click to expand...

I'm not saying people need to grow out of their interests. I'm saying some personalities aren't compatible with medical education in it's current form. Burnout is easy to understand in light of the more "average" attitude towards work -- that is, it shouldn't take up all your time because you really need some of that time to do something fun. I single out partying and drinking till you drop because, let's be serious, it is by far the most prevalent pass-time. But if you're the type of person who is ok with working twice as hard as the average american, using up all your time, and not feeling like they're missing out on much by working all the time, then med school is more bearable.

Hope that makes more sense. And just to be clear I don't think it's good that med school is the way it is, i think it's ******ed and should be restructured to not eat all your time if you dont want it to.

Tired said:

And of course, from the "Me Too" crowd:

http://allnurses.com/forums/f195/med-school-burnout-345206.html

Click to expand...

Is it bad that one of the posts on the first page of that thread literally made me laugh out loud?

Ha-ha. Now I see why all of a sudden a lot of my friends (who are not in med school) were asking me whether or not I was having suicidal thought. I thought it was some sort of an off-color joke.
Med school: stressful, takes up a lot of your time and energy, hard on your relationships. But hey, you have made a choice, worked hard to get in...better adapt...fast.

Pinkertinkle said:

Some one get this guy a wambulance. Passing med school is a joke, acing it is much harder.

Click to expand...

*cough* douchbag *cough*

Well, I am most definitely not included in the group that thinks "passing med school is a joke". Perhaps there are differences among schools, but I would say the vast majority of people I know were sweating through ALL of their exams (beginning in the first semester of first year, which we thought was pretty hard, but ended up looking back on and wishing it could be like that again...). It absolutely, positively does NOT compare to any undergrad or master's program that I know of - perhaps it does for some, but if it does I would argue that you either had an exceptionally difficult undergrad or master's program, or you're in a med school that is exceptionally easy, or you've simply not yet BEEN in med school and you're assuming it will be like your undergrad or master's program.

But you know what? I love it. Really, I do. Not all the time; not every second of every day. I am currently in my surgery clerkship and I'm dead tired. I'm missing out on fun social events and time with my husband. But I still love what I'm learning, and I can't complain because I knew it was going to be hard going in. *I* signed up for this, I can't blaim anyone else for it! Plus I look back on how desperate I was to GET here! LOL.

I think if you recognize that you are truly privileged to be here, it goes a long way in keeping you from whining and complaining about how your school doesn't offer free espressos...

On another note, I think anyone having suicidal thoughts has gone beyond "burnout". I don't say this to downplay the stress of medschool - the most stress I've ever experienced in my life has certainly been in medschool. But I would certainly hope anyone having suicidal thoughts would recognize that they're not just "stressed", and reach out for some real help.

As we all know its quite hard to fail out of medical school. Passing really is quite easy, especially third year where as long as you show up and make half an effort you will pass.

Some unconscientious guy even suggesting to you how easy (piece of cake) med school is I can understand the "burnout syndrome"...

Also I think its one thing suicidal ideations versing understanding why someone would attempt suicide..

mjl1717 said:

Some unconscientious guy even suggesting to you how easy (piece of cake) med school is I can understand the "burnout syndrome"...

Also I think its one thing suicidal ideations versing understanding why someone would attempt suicided..

Click to expand...

...it wasn't the essay that made you ace the MCAT, was it?

Pinkertinkle said:

As we all know its quite hard to fail out of medical school. Passing really is quite easy, especially third year where as long as you show up and make half an effort you will pass.

Click to expand...

yeah, it's like an exclusive Club Med where we just lounge by the pool with Mai Tais in hand

Sartre79 said:

yeah, it's like an exclusive Club Med where we just lounge by the pool with Mai Tais in hand

Click to expand...

Im just saying thats part of the initiation... Superficial guys (who are not high on the totem pole) claiming its like a birthday party or as you say lounging by the pool mostly stress free!..

Sartre79 said:

yeah, it's like an exclusive Club Med where we just lounge by the pool with Mai Tais in hand

Click to expand...

They give you mai tais??? The best we get is those crappy frozen margharitas from a machine. Guess it serves me right for picking a state school...

pianola said:

Just a note: We're also discussing the article in pre-allo. If you allopathic people have some ideas, insights or responses that would be helpful for us pre-meds, don't hesitate to respond...

Click to expand...

Just my $0.02. I always tried to measure/maintain my self esteem as much by what the patients and families thought of me as I did by what the residents and attendings thought. For what it's worth.

Sartre79 said:

*cough* douchbag *cough*

Click to expand...

you beat me to it.

seriously, we get it - you're good at school. that doesn't mean passing med school is a joke.

Sheesh, I don't know. Med school is 4 years of your life. A lot of people, when subjected to any random four year stretch of their life, particularly the years after college, are going to get depressed and feel burned out, particularly when friends from college are in the work force and moving on with their lives. When you're in med school you still are a student, and you also realize that it isn't really going to change much until you finish residency (other than getting paid a little bit instead of paying a lot).

I think a lot of it is overblown. Med students have a lot of stresses but if you look at any group of people you'll probably find similar statistics about burnout and stress and regretting your career path and even suicidal thoughts. I do think, though, that there are more and more people entering med school who are just doing it because that's what they're supposed to do, and not because they have really considered other things or know what they want to do with their lives. Burnout is going to happen when you start realizing that the course you have set yourself on is somewhat permanent - you can't really change your mind anymore because of your loans and all the time you invested.

I enjoyed years 1-2. Year 3 was hard but I knew it was only a year. I got sort of burned out year 4, not from being busy or stressed but because I felt like I was just wasting time for a year until I started residency.

If I had read that article in my first year of medical school, I would have thought it was a huge exaggeration... The second half of my second year was such a self esteem destroying experience that I can understand why people would feel that down. However, the students in their last year seem really happy, so I think that the world is going to be taking a happier turn...

I'm currently pretty stressed out here in 3rd year, but this is as stressed as I've really ever been about school. I also agree with the post above that life is pretty stressful and burnout inducing for lots of people outside of medicine. That doesn't mean I'm giving a pass to the situations that make this experience hard and even miserable for some of us, but I do think there's a trend in medicine to think we have it harder than everyone else.

So overall I'm kind of eh about the article.

Doctor Bagel said:

I'm currently pretty stressed out here in 3rd year, but this is as stressed as I've really ever been about school. I also agree with the post above that life is pretty stressful and burnout inducing for lots of people outside of medicine. That doesn't mean I'm giving a pass to the situations that make this experience hard and even miserable for some of us, but I do think there's a trend in medicine to think we have it harder than everyone else.

So overall I'm kind of eh about the article.

Click to expand...

I have to agree with you about rotations. I think that is the really unique stressor in med school, the bizarre line you're always walking between being in school with evaluation and exams and the aspect in which it's like a job and you have no control over your time. But then if you look at the first two years I can't really see why people are complaining. It's a lot of work, but it's just school.

I think the people who really truely feel this way about med school are those:
'
- People trying to get straight As
- Werent ready to start just yet (should have taken time off)
- Didnt realize that starting med school wasnt going to be a cure to all your lifes problems (i.e. no friends, no gf/bf, low self esteem) or feel like they are entitled to some sort of social reward (more respect, friends, popularity, gf/bf).

If you maintain a normalish life to the best of your realistic abilities I think med school isnt too difficult at all. If you re cool with trying your best at classes without stressing yourself out too much and getting As when possible and Bs and Cs at other times med school will be ok. Its all about time management, instead of wasting freetime on aim or facebook get in some studying time so that when oppurtonities come to actually go do stuff you ll have time to do so.

In the wise words of Ronnie Coleman, "Ain't nuthin' to it but to do it."

why are there so many posters calling the article an "extensive whining session," or "over the top," when it is based on some concerning research findings? whether you think the 11% suicidal thought rate is from people who weren't ready or don't want to be a doctor, it's worth investigating. and just because many med students before us have gone through this hazing process, doesn't mean we have to. i think it's always important to take a critical look at the status quo to at least attempt to improve things.

i don't know about all other countries, but i think the american medical school admission system is schizophrenic. we encourage applicants to have a diverse resume, have well developed "interesting" extra curriculars, and then slam them with the traditional method of med school teaching. if we can't take the system a little more non-traditional, we shouldn't encourage non-traditional students.

perhaps it's better to just start med school after high school, as they do in some countries. that way, applicants don't build enough self esteem to where they get a shock in med school, and they don't learn/do all the interesting things in college which don't end up mattering in med school anyway.

yaah said:

Sheesh, I don't know. Med school is 4 years of your life. A lot of people, when subjected to any random four year stretch of their life, particularly the years after college, are going to get depressed and feel burned out, particularly when friends from college are in the work force and moving on with their lives. When you're in med school you still are a student, and you also realize that it isn't really going to change much until you finish residency (other than getting paid a little bit instead of paying a lot).

I think a lot of it is overblown. Med students have a lot of stresses but if you look at any group of people you'll probably find similar statistics about burnout and stress and regretting your career path and even suicidal thoughts. I do think, though, that there are more and more people entering med school who are just doing it because that's what they're supposed to do, and not because they have really considered other things or know what they want to do with their lives. Burnout is going to happen when you start realizing that the course you have set yourself on is somewhat permanent - you can't really change your mind anymore because of your loans and all the time you invested.

I enjoyed years 1-2. Year 3 was hard but I knew it was only a year. I got sort of burned out year 4, not from being busy or stressed but because I felt like I was just wasting time for a year until I started residency.

Click to expand...

This is kind of what I was going to say. I did not read the journal article but did they make a comparison between a normal person over any 4 year period of life and medical students?

Certainly medical school can be a high pressure situation and there can be times when you feel buried but I am not sure it is THAT bad. Also over a 4 year period something crazy unrelated to medical school is probably likely to happen anyway. Say you break your leg, get really sick or one of your parents dies. That plus the pressure of school could turn things sour, but everything is relative, what else would most of us medical students be doing? I would probably be a graduate student doing something else that isn't "easy".

Another thing is that so many people really do come in to medical school with the thought that "I've killed undergrad and there is no reason I can't be top of my class in med school." You set yourself up for failure with that attitude and I would bet you get burnt out quicker if you have that expectation. My school did a good job during orientation of hammering home the idea that following the first test half of us will be the lower half of the class. Also that there is no real reason to believe any one of us personally will be in the top half or the bottom half so don't even worry about that before the test.