Fellowships...

Yes.. You'll have to know someone to get in though. That can be said for many fellowship programs, no matter where you come from though.

I guess it was specifically my neurosurgery attending that did a residency at Long Island Jewish/North Shore and a peds neurosurgery fellowship at Albert Einstein/Montefiore... Oddly enough, the plaques on his wall say the same thing.

or perhaps it was when I was doing interviews at a few DO programs, they specifically mentioned MD fellowships they had sent people to.

Tired said:

Who told you that lie?

Look at the NRMP webpage and scroll through the various fellowships. I just scrolled through CT surgery, all the Medicine fellowships, and the Radiology fellowships.

All those required ACGME or Royal College residencies.

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Easy big fella. Maybe you're thinking that info listed on NRMP is always accurate? In many cases, programs simply forget to list that they accept AOA grads. Happens all the time in fact. I mean, it's not like it really matters to the secretaries who put this stuff together so that the DOs know everything is cool

In surgery at least, many ACGME subspecialty fellowships are available to AOA residents. Of course, as the level of competitiveness goes up, the availability to DOs seems to go down.

Tired said:

Who told you that lie?

Look at the NRMP webpage and scroll through the various fellowships. I just scrolled through CT surgery, all the Medicine fellowships, and the Radiology fellowships.

All those required ACGME or Royal College residencies.

Click to expand...

Calm down. This guy did complete a top ACGME neurosurgery fellowship after his DO residency.

http://www.stonybrookphysicians.com/doctor/GALLER_DO_ROBERT_1255.asp

or this link if the first one doesn't work: Dr. Robert Galler, D.O. - Assistant Professor
http://www.uhmc.sunysb.edu/neurosurgery/doc.htm

Let me clear this up for everyone. You can do a ACGME fellowship after completing an AOA residency. I am a AOA general surgery resident who is completing an ACGME surgical critical care fellowship right now as a PGY IV at a university hospital. I am planning on doing an additional fellowship in CT surgery and have looked into this matter extensively. The catch however, you are not eligible for board certification through the ABS, ABTS, or any other allopathic board certifying body (either medicine or surgery). If there exists an equivilant osteopathic board certification you petition the AOA for approval of your ACGME fellowship training so that you can sit for the AOA equivilant boards. For example there are no AOA colorectal boards, thus you can do the fellowship but not be eligible for board certification with your AOA general surgery background. Being that there exists an AOA surgical critical care boards I will be board certified through the AOA, which I just went through the approval process. There are countless of AOA trained residents that have gone this route. Just make sure there exists an AOA equivilant board, otherwise you will likely not be able to become board certified

DO_Surgeon,
Why the super fellowship? CT surgery market ain't that great nowadays. Is it just your love for the field or is there more to it(field of undiscovered gold)?

Tired said:

Hmm, published NRMP requirements vs random postings on SDN . . . I wonder who I should believe?

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You are missing the point. ACGME fellowships will not certify anyone who did not complete an ACGME or Canadian residency. However, that doesn't mean they will not *accept* them. These guys just have to find they own respective board certification when they are done with the fellowship. So I think we have to distinguish between acceptance and certification(which is probably what you're arguing).

Kudos to DO Surgeon for the info.

dually accredited programs??

And for the DO the did the peds fellowship, it was about 8-10 years ago..

Tired said:

So when the NRMP writes this:

"Before admission to a thoracic surgery residency program, the resident must have documented completion of a general surgery residency program accredited by either the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) or the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada."

. . . they don't really mean it?

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According to Barrow Neurological Institute:Qualifications :
Candidates should be fully trained neurosurgeons or senior level neurosurgery residents in an ACGME-accredited neurosurgery residency training program.

YET they accepted a DO for fellowship and he's now a professor at Stony Brook(see above link). This means they view AOA/ACGME as equivalents and aren't distinguished. So when they say "ACGME", AOA is also represented in its meaning. Kinda like how some hospitals or organizations uses "MD" for every physician even though some have different degrees.

To answer Tired question: There are some programs that stick to that requirement. I have spoken with many program directors, vast majority, and they have indicated to me that without the above mentioned training through the ACGME or the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada, one is NOT eligible for their thoracic surgery program. They site the inability to become board certified through the American Board of Thoracic Surgery (ABTS). However, I have also spoken with nearly a dozen or so places that are willing to accept AOA general surgery training. Whether that is because CT surgery is one of the least desired fields right now and they just want a warm body to take call makes no difference to me. I am looking to get the best training possible. Currently there are two DO graduates from AOA general surgery programs at ACGME programs and two recent graduates from Texas Heart. The key is finding what INDIVIDUAL programs will accept you, then you have to jump through the certifying hoops through the AOA. On the other hand, other fellowship do not require ACGME training...transplant, vascular, breast, surgical oncology. Most require completion of an "approved residency." I personally know AOA graduates who have gone into fellowships in all those fields.

I am really not trying to start a pissing contest. All I am saying is that it is possible to do an ACGME fellowship after AOA training. Many people have done it in the past. Are you at a disadvantage...probably. Is it more work...personally speaking from my process with the AOA for my critical care fellowship...definately. But the key is it can be done if you want to put forth the effort to research the places that are willing to accept your training because not all places will.

To answer the other question: CT surgery is for the love of the field...but at least I will have something to fall back on when I don't get a job

Tired said:

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Not sure why the laughter. If the BNI did not view AOA residency as equivalent they would not have accepted the DO resident. So it can be inferred that AOA is represented even though "ACGME residency" requirement was stated. However, like DO Surgeon said, this depends on the institution and my post was in reference to BNI.

By the way, you started out disputing DOs can't get MD fellowships and we've showed you examples that it's possible.Isn't it time to stop digging?

andexterouss said:

Not sure why the laughter. If the BNI did not view AOA residency as equivalent they would not have accepted the DO resident. So it can be inferred that AOA is represented even though "ACGME residency" requirement was stated. However, like DO Surgeon said, this depends on the institution and my post was in reference to BNI.

By the way, you started out disputing DOs can't get MD fellowships and we've showed you examples that it's possible.Isn't it time to stop digging?

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I don't think he was saying DOs can't get MD fellowships. I think his point was that DOs who do DO (AOA, w/e) residencies can't get MD fellowships. I don't know if it's true or not, but I imagine it'd be even tougher than it is for a DO to get an MD residency slot.

andexterouss said:

According to Barrow Neurological Institute:Qualifications :
Candidates should be fully trained neurosurgeons or senior level neurosurgery residents in an ACGME-accredited neurosurgery residency training program.

YET they accepted a DO for fellowship and he's now a professor at Stony Brook(see above link). This means they view AOA/ACGME as equivalents and aren't distinguished. So when they say "ACGME", AOA is also represented in its meaning. Kinda like how some hospitals or organizations uses "MD" for every physician even though some have different degrees.

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I thought he went to do spine in missouri? or is this another?

beastmaster said:

I thought he went to do spine in missouri? or is this another?

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Yeah, I think it's a different guy. This one did his fellowship at Tennessee and BNI.

http://www.uhmc.sunysb.edu/neurosurgery/doc.htm

Tired said:

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The Surgeon is correct. You can complete an ACGME fellowship after an AOA residency. I personally know 5 Medicine people who have gone that route, I'm currently applying via that route as well. The only downside is, as already mentioned, you can not be board certified by that MD governing body and must be certified via the equivalent AOA body if one exists.

I have personally asked the ACOI Executive Director (Dr Slick) via correspondence from the ACOI contact information and was told that it is possible.

andexterouss said:

Yeah, I think it's a different guy. This one did his fellowship at Tennessee and BNI.

http://www.uhmc.sunysb.edu/neurosurgery/doc.htm

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I guess that makes it 2 DOs who have done fellowships at BNI:
http://www.brainandneurospine.com/colle_bio.html

Looks like I was right and nobody lied to me..

Tired said:

The fact that things are sometimes done does not warrant the "of course you can response" originally given. It appears I was wrong initially, and that AOA grads sometimes do ACGME fellowships.

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After going through this very process and matching to an ACGME fellowship from a AOA residency, I decided to bump this thread and throw in a few observations from my application process.

Tired said:

But the implication in your earlier posts that AOA-certified residents are viewed as equivalent for fellowship purposes is not borne out by either the published NRMP guidelines, or even the experiences of Osteopath grads who have posted here (despite their ever-present optimism).

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No one can make any implication one way or another as the data simply is not published in any place that I can find. My personal experience is that it does happen yearly.

I do fully agree that trying to do to a ACGME fellowship from an AOA program is difficult, but isn't impossible. During my application process, I only received 1 rejection where I was blatantly told that they weren't interested because I did not go to an ACGME program. I had 14 programs which never replied and 4 interviews total. From talking to my MD friends going through the same thing, the high number of programs who don't bother to reply seems to be universal.

I've also been talking to the AOA and the ACOI about finding out the process to make sure I can get board certified as I can not be board certified through the ABIM since I did an AOA program. You do almost the exact same process as the approval for internship approval. You have to fill out this form and this goes to the Specialty college and to approve the rotations and assure they meet their criteria. I talked with Christina Smith at the ACOI today and blatantly asked if they've denied anyone in the past and I talked about what I needed to do upfront to make sure my fellowship was accepted, and she said 1) she could not think of anyone they had denied and 2) there wasn't that much to do to meet their criteria from an ACGME/ABIM fellowship except the above form.

So I'll find out in 4 years if that's accurate.

The short answer is yes, it is possible. It's just not very likely, especially with competitive fellowships. Unless you know someone or the program is desperate to fill its fellowship slots you will lose out to an ACGME candidate.

Interesting - the one hitch is that the MD Surgical Critical Care Fellowship requires completion on an ACGME program for eligibility to even participate in the fellowship:

Fellow Appointments
A. Eligibility Criteria
Each fellow must successfully complete an ACGME-accredited specialty
program and/or meet other eligibility criteria as specified by the Review
Committee. The program must document that each fellow has met the
eligibility criteria.
1. Completion of at least three clinical years in an ACGME-accredited
graduate educational program in the disciplines of general surgery,
neurosurgery, urology, or obstetrics and gynecology is a prerequisite for
admission to the program.

Was wondering where did you do your fellowship and did they receive an exception to the eligibility requirement prior to your arrival or completion of the fellowship training?

As a program director in surgical critical care, I have inadvertently accepted an AOA trained general surgery resident and am now being cited for noncompliance to the eligibility requirement - actions pending!

DO_Surgeon said:

Let me clear this up for everyone. You can do a ACGME fellowship after completing an AOA residency. I am a AOA general surgery resident who is completing an ACGME surgical critical care fellowship right now as a PGY IV at a university hospital. I am planning on doing an additional fellowship in CT surgery and have looked into this matter extensively. The catch however, you are not eligible for board certification through the ABS, ABTS, or any other allopathic board certifying body (either medicine or surgery). If there exists an equivilant osteopathic board certification you petition the AOA for approval of your ACGME fellowship training so that you can sit for the AOA equivilant boards. For example there are no AOA colorectal boards, thus you can do the fellowship but not be eligible for board certification with your AOA general surgery background. Being that there exists an AOA surgical critical care boards I will be board certified through the AOA, which I just went through the approval process. There are countless of AOA trained residents that have gone this route. Just make sure there exists an AOA equivilant board, otherwise you will likely not be able to become board certified

Click to expand...

Interesting - the one hitch is that the MD Surgical Critical Care Fellowship requires completion on an ACGME program for eligibility to even participate in the fellowship:

Fellow Appointments
A. Eligibility Criteria
Each fellow must successfully complete an ACGME-accredited specialty
program and/or meet other eligibility criteria as specified by the Review
Committee. The program must document that each fellow has met the
eligibility criteria.
1. Completion of at least three clinical years in an ACGME-accredited
graduate educational program in the disciplines of general surgery,
neurosurgery, urology, or obstetrics and gynecology is a prerequisite for
admission to the program.

Was wondering where did you do your fellowship and did they receive an exception to the eligibility requirement prior to your arrival or completion of the fellowship training?

As a program director in surgical critical care, I have inadvertently accepted an AOA trained general surgery resident and am now being cited for noncompliance to the eligibility requirement - actions pending!

Falmito said:

Interesting - the one hitch is that the MD Surgical Critical Care Fellowship requires completion on an ACGME program for eligibility to even participate in the fellowship:

Was wondering where did you do your fellowship and did they receive an exception to the eligibility requirement prior to your arrival or completion of the fellowship training?

As a program director in surgical critical care, I have inadvertently accepted an AOA trained general surgery resident and am now being cited for noncompliance to the eligibility requirement - actions pending!

Click to expand...

Go to the rrc's website and read the whole list of regs, at least for abim subspecialties, programs are allowed to take 25% of their fellows from non-acgme IM residency when averaged over a 5 year period.

wanna_be_do said:

The short answer is yes, it is possible. It's just not very likely, especially with competitive fellowships. Unless you know someone or the program is desperate to fill its fellowship slots you will lose out to an ACGME candidate.

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I'm not sure what to make of this data the ACOI just put out, my first inclination would be that there are 20 grads who are specializing who are not going into ACOI fellowship programs. 42% of ACOI IM grads are subspecializing from this years graduating group, yet there are only 99 programs with 201 fellows, so it would seem to me that there are at least some grads going to acgme fellowships.