First Year Salary Survey

aegdboy said:

If you could, please post what you were offered your first year out of school. I would prefer people that did not do a residency.

I'm applying for work and would just like a survey just so that I know what to ask for. I do not want to low ball myself or say something to high to scare a potential employer.

I know its Location dependent so the data will be just a generalization.

Most threads on this topic are worthless (from the search). Hopefully there will be a change here

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I have two friends who will graduate soon. One is 140k with benefit, another is 160k without benefit.

If you just want a lot of quick figures, why not make this into a poll so people can just vote on the category that applies to them?

Basic rule of thumb is $400-500 day for flat salary, right out of school. Start high if you're really that good, and work your way down. This may change depending on area, and especially if the business participates with insurance or not.

$400/day = $50/hour (times 2000 average work hours/year) = $100,000/year
$500/day = $62.50/hour x 2000 hours/year = $125,000


If you're getting paid by collection or production, figures could be anywhere, since your take home is based on 1) the quality of your patients 2) the ability of the practice to give you high production patients 3) the ability of the company to collect from these patients 4) if the company participates with insurance or not (non par is obviously to your advantage).

lisalisa2007 said:

I have two friends who will graduate soon. One is 140k with benefit, another is 160k without benefit.

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wow

good idea for a thread, definitely add some sort of poll, would be quite interesting

I have a senior friend who is heading back to Dallas, TX after graduation. The job offer was $130k.

Another friend of mine who works for a chain in Sacramento, CA area said his company is hiring new grads for $450/day (~$110k). The base for north-east chains (in MA, NH, ME, CT, etc) are at least $500/day ($120k).

lisalisa2007 said:

I have two friends who will graduate soon. One is 140k with benefit, another is 160k without benefit.

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Which one is the "better" choice?

A friend of a friend (so I don't know this person well at all) says he's making 60k (no benfits, 5 days/week 9 to 5:30) this year, his first year out of d-school. To those of you who have finished d-school or about to, do you think this makes sense?

Thanks.

Locutus of Borg said:

A friend of a friend (so I don't know this person well at all) says he's making 60k (no benfits, 5 days/week 9 to 5:30) this year, his first year out of d-school. To those of you who have finished d-school or about to, do you think this makes sense?

Thanks.

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This makes ZERO sense. I would check up on this. This is very low and would make it almost impossible to pay back loans even in the most affordable areas in the country!!!

aegdboy said:

Great responses so far. Looks like we might finally have a good thread on this.

I was offered in FL $500 a day min or 34% production with 50% lab bill. full benefits including medical, 401k, malpractice, $600 a month toward student loan and 10 days paid time off.

They say the average pt's I will see is around 15 per day.

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Sounds pretty good. Busy, especially for straight out of school, but they'll be paying you well for it.

Can we list what significant factors decide how much salary (plus benefits, if any) a dental grad would make first year coming out? In particular, how much would the school one graduates from matter (e.g. Penn vs. Western -- no offense implied to those going to Western, I'm sure it has every potential to be a very reputable school, but it has to start somewhere)?

Thanks to everyone who participates.

aegdboy said:

Great responses so far. Looks like we might finally have a good thread on this.

I was offered in FL $500 a day min or 34% production with 50% lab bill. full benefits including medical, 401k, malpractice, $600 a month toward student loan and 10 days paid time off.

They say the average pt's I will see is around 15 per day.

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I agree with aphistis, this is a great offer. With 15 patients, if you produce $100 each, that's $1,500. That's what your employer probably based the 34% production on (34% of $1,500 = $510), which shouldn't be too hard to generate. $100/patient, that's like a 2 surface composite, with an assistant, an hour is plenty of time. Within your 1st year, you should be able to generate more, or even double assuming you get good cases and there are not a lot of cancellations. Then you will be looking at a much much higher income.

I am guessing you did AEGD (judging by your username)?

aegdboy said:

Great responses so far. Looks like we might finally have a good thread on this.

I was offered in FL $500 a day min or 34% production with 50% lab bill. full benefits including medical, 401k, malpractice, $600 a month toward student loan and 10 days paid time off.

They say the average pt's I will see is around 15 per day.

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The 50% lab fee scares me. This sounds one of those "drill mill" chain franchises where they can pay you that much. ONLY BECAUSE you're expected to strap your roller skates on and zoom all day long. RIght out of school, I was slow as hell .

Do you have to choose between one or the other, or do you default to $500 a day if your 34% production isn't more than $500/day. That would be a pretty good safety net if that were the case. If you choose to 34% production, and you can't produce, you'll have a disappointingly small paycheck.

But what makes this an awesome deal is the benefits, 401k and loan repayment. Read the fine print and make sure you're getting all of it though. You may not get it right off the bat and there may be a probabtionary period.

Locutus of Borg said:

A friend of a friend (so I don't know this person well at all) says he's making 60k (no benfits, 5 days/week 9 to 5:30) this year, his first year out of d-school. To those of you who have finished d-school or about to, do you think this makes sense?

Thanks.

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The national average salary for Hygienists is $32/hr (~$60k), which means a lot make more than $60k. Why would this dude work half of what he is worth?

Cold Front said:

The national average salary for Hygienists is $32/hr (~$60k), which means a lot make more than $60k. Why would this dude work half of what he is worth?

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Yeah, I thought it was strange too. But disturbed me the most was that he didn't seem sad or shy about it at all. $60K is about how much an engineer makes by the time he is three years out of engineering school. To us engineers sitting at a table at the time of the conversation, 60K for the first year straight out of professional school is a lot.

For those entering the job market make sure you understand your contract. If you are being paid a guaranteed salary for any window of time be sure to understand if it is a draw or not. If it's a draw you get paid your salary every 2 weeks or whatever the time frame is, but you have to produce enough to cover it. If you don't you then owe the 'bank' (the owner). A friend of mine didn't do his homework and sat around all day because his schedule was light but was being paid and now he wants to leave...but owes his employer a significant amount of money.

Cold Front said:

I agree with aphistis, this is a great offer. With 15 patients, if you produce $100 each, that's $1,500. That's what your employer probably based the 34% production on (34% of $1,500 = $510), which shouldn't be too hard to generate. $100/patient, that's like a 2 surface composite, with an assistant, an hour is plenty of time. Within your 1st year, you should be able to generate more, or even double assuming you get good cases and there are not a lot of cancellations. Then you will be looking at a much much higher income.

I am guessing you did AEGD (judging by your username)?

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I hope you can get faster than that because you'd have to work 15 hours a day to make your $1500 production at that rate.

Cold Front said:

The national average salary for Hygienists is $32/hr (~$60k), which means a lot make more than $60k. Why would this dude work half of what he is worth?

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Maybe cause he's only doing hygiene lol

teeth63a said:

Maybe cause he's only doing hygiene lol

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Nope. He definitely said he was DDS. In fact, he also did a Masters of Applied Science before doing his dental degree.

lisalisa2007 said:

I have two friends who will graduate soon. One is 140k with benefit, another is 160k without benefit.

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Where is this?

Draw: you get paid a salary every two weeks regardless of what you produce, but you have to produce enough to not owe the owner money.

Example: associate paid salary of 120,000/year, or 10k per month.
For ease of #s, suppose they get paid 33% production.

Month 1: they produce 22k
Month 2: they produce 34k
Month 3: they produce 28k

3 month production: 84k. Over those three months this associate recieved 30k in salary. 33% of their actual production is 0.33x84,000= 27,720.
They were paid 30,000 but only produced 27,720 worth of salary so they 'owe' the pratice 2,280.

Month 4: they produce 34k
Month 5: they produce 36k
Month 6: they produce 35k

3 month production: 105,000. 33% production of 105k= 34,650. They are due a bonus of 4,650 above and beyond their base pay, however you need to subtract what they owed from 1st quarter. So their second quarter bonus would be 4,650-2,280= 2,370 bonus for 2nd quarter.

This is especially relevant if you are paid in collection vs production. Typically there is a 1-2month lag when you start to get insurance payments so you usually end up having a defecit quarter 1 and making it up later. It's always better to be paid on production but that is an entirely different topic.

Starting out it's better if you get a salary + some sort of commission above and beyond vs a draw. The owner is motivated to give you patients to produce if he's paying you and you aren't on the hook for it. If you are getting a draw he really doesn't care if you are producing because at some point you are still going to owe him. I think starting out with a guarantee and having a bonus above and beyond is the way to go for some set period of time (6 mos for example) and then switching over completely to a production based salary. You need to do your homework and make sure the practice can support 2 doctors and you aren't going to be sitting around twiddling your thumbs.

Guy Smiley said:

I hope you can get faster than that because you'd have to work 15 hours a day to make your $1500 production at that rate.

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I noticed the error too, I meant $200/hr, which equates to couple of fillings. That gives you the $1,500 range for daily production.

This comes from a very reliable source..... me.

I worked for a medicaid clinic in Oregon first year out. Guaranteed salary 150K. No benefits. 5 days/week. Up to 30 pts/day working out of 3-4 tx rooms. 2 weeks paid vacation. Paid CE. The money was good. I got burned out after a year. Actually I was burned out after 3 months. Some of my friends working for this company were able to negotiate higher salaries due to remote locations and the company being able to fill spots. I am not sure if this is an issue for them at all now. When taking your first job, especially if you go with high volume corporate mill, be prepared to work your tail off. You will most likely hate it. I now own my own practice. Life is much better.

aegdboy said:

Actually I applied to the Jacksonville and Tampa AEGD but did not get in. I made the user name while I was applying back then and just stuck with it.

So I will be a fresh New grad

I'm not to worried about speed or quality. I am in the higher percentile for speed at school and even higher in quality. I'm known for producing very good work. I take a lot of pride in my work and will never compromise on quality.

Oh and why I didn't get into the AEGD's, well I screwed up the interviews bad. I tried to be someone other than myself and it back fired. I am very good at going into interviews unprepared and just talking from the heart, whereas on those two interviews I went in with prepared responses that were not me. Oh well, lesson learned

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I admire your confidence in speed and quality but let me say this....

You are not as prepared as you think you are. You should be very concerned about your quality as a new grad. There is no way that your school has prepared you completely for the real world. I would recommend being a little humble your first little while out. Be prepared to make mistakes and to learn from them. I don't know you at all and I am not trying to pass judgement, but your comments would concern me as an employer. Best of luck.

Cold Front said:

I agree with aphistis, this is a great offer. With 15 patients, if you produce $100 each, that's $1,500. That's what your employer probably based the 34% production on (34% of $1,500 = $510), which shouldn't be too hard to generate. $100/patient, that's like a 2 surface composite, with an assistant, an hour is plenty of time. Within your 1st year, you should be able to generate more, or even double assuming you get good cases and there are not a lot of cancellations. Then you will be looking at a much much higher income.

I am guessing you did AEGD (judging by your username)?

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Guy Smiley said:

I hope you can get faster than that because you'd have to work 15 hours a day to make your $1500 production at that rate.

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Cold Front said:

I noticed the error too, I meant $200/hr, which equates to couple of fillings. That gives you the $1,500 range for daily production.

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That math makes much better sense. Now we just need to talk about the $100 for a 2 surface composite Heck, even in my rural area of CT, I get $30+ more than that for a 1 surface amalgam

can anyone give me a rough estimate of pay a new graduate wih DDS/DMD ca n make in the following areas?


SF BAY AREA
SACRAMENTO
LOS ANGELES
ORANGE COUNTY
RIVERSIDE COUNTY
SAN DIEGO COUNTY


thanks

aegdboy said:

After doing some research on the web, I did come across some jobs there. I can't give you specific websites, but I saw around $300 a day min in southern cali.

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thats really awful...6K per month????????

DrJeff said:

That math makes much better sense. Now we just need to talk about the $100 for a 2 surface composite Heck, even in my rural area of CT, I get $30+ more than that for a 1 surface amalgam

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That's actually very cheap, right? I was going by what my school charges.

Couple of years ago, the national average was about $200 for a 2 surface posterior composite. If all 15 patients needed 1 each, that would be $3k. 34% cut = $1,020 to the associate's pocket (no lab fees). Ofcourse, it's very unlikely to get such day but still something to encourage yourself on!

aegdboy said:

After doing some research on the web, I did come across some jobs there. I can't give you specific websites, but I saw around $300 a day min in southern cali.

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Many of them cannot get 5days/week job. Many times, they have been asked to stay home because their office managers are not able to book enough patients for them.

These figures scare me...$300/day. I'm a first yr dental student and was working as a hygienist in Southern CA prior to d-school. As an RDH, I was making $425/day with vacation and medical insurance. It scares me to think I will be making less and owing more. Are these numbers right? Is a new grad really only making that much in CA? Thanks for any info.

bluemanchews said:

Where is this?

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Both work for dental chain in PA.

DrJeff said:

That math makes much better sense. Now we just need to talk about the $100 for a 2 surface composite Heck, even in my rural area of CT, I get $30+ more than that for a 1 surface amalgam

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You get $130 for a one surface amalgam?!! Wow. Our full price for a 1 surface amalgam is $78.

aegdboy said:

NYC is also very saturated but you can get a decent job.

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I hate NYC. Here's my Big Apple experience.

After getting licensure, I ended up with three dental jobs in the course of a few months. I was producing an average of $500/day. 35% of it was mine. Difficult patients ( one of them was talking of how she could have sued her former dentist for "millions." I have lots more other stories ), difficult environment, difficult staff, difficult employers, difficult commutes, difficult insurance plans...... After quitting job#3, I stayed home for some time. I was in no mood to work anymore. I regretted dentistry big time. I felt like I ruined my financial future by becoming a dentist. I was never in it for the money but I wasn't expecting anything like this.

After getting repeated letters from my loan holders for loan repayment, I started applying to a couple of positions once more. Out of maybe 15 jobs, I finally got a phone call from one of them. I interviewed and accepted the position. Again, I'm averaging $500/day in production, and the standard 35% is mine to take home.

In NYC, is it normal to be producing somewhere like $200-$800/day in a typical position? Anyone else currently practicing in NYC want to comment?

mrlantern said:

After getting repeated letters from my loan holders for loan repayment, I started applying to a couple of positions once more. Out of maybe 15 jobs, I finally got a phone call from one of them. I interviewed and accepted the position. Again, I'm averaging $500/day in production, and the standard 35% is mine to take home.

In NYC, is it normal to be producing somewhere like $200-$800/day in a typical position? Anyone else currently practicing in NYC want to comment?

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So are you taking home only $175 dollars a day then? That's unheard of. I would just quit and go on welfare and section 8 if possible.

Daurang said:

So are you taking home only $175 dollars a day then? That's unheard of. I would just quit and go on welfare and section 8 if possible.

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You think I'm trolling, aren't you?

In the offices where I've been, almost all FFS patients come in for free consults. They leave with the fee schedules in hand. Then, poof. You don't ever see them again. In theory, PPO patients have a better show-rate but a couple of fillings, sc/rp, and maybe one crown can easily amount to over one thousand dollars in copays. So it's also difficult to see PPO patients returning for treatment.

Essentially, you're putting hopes on Medicaid patients. In NY, Medicaid is not necessarily "Medicaid." Regular Medicaid has almost decent fees but many do not have such straight Medicaid. Instead, many of these patients have Medicaid under another managed care plan. The ones I recall are Healthplex, Doral, Amerigroup, and many others. Under these plans, the dental fees are about 1/3- 1/2 of regular Medicaid fees. We're talking about $10-40 fillings and $40 - $60 surgical exos. RPDs should be around $300 before lab fees are deducted.

It's hard enough to find teeth to treat. Then add in the ridiculous fees.

I know I'm in the minority but there must be at least a few other nyc dentists here. If you're a dentist practicing in nyc, I'm very interested in hearing your mileage.

mrlantern said:

I hate NYC. Here's my Big Apple experience.

After getting licensure, I ended up with three dental jobs in the course of a few months. I was producing an average of $500/day. 35% of it was mine. Difficult patients ( one of them was talking of how she could have sued her former dentist for "millions." I have lots more other stories ), difficult environment, difficult staff, difficult employers, difficult commutes, difficult insurance plans...... After quitting job#3, I stayed home for some time. I was in no mood to work anymore. I regretted dentistry big time. I felt like I ruined my financial future by becoming a dentist. I was never in it for the money but I wasn't expecting anything like this.

After getting repeated letters from my loan holders for loan repayment, I started applying to a couple of positions once more. Out of maybe 15 jobs, I finally got a phone call from one of them. I interviewed and accepted the position. Again, I'm averaging $500/day in production, and the standard 35% is mine to take home.

In NYC, is it normal to be producing somewhere like $200-$800/day in a typical position? Anyone else currently practicing in NYC want to comment?

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I can't understand why you wouldn't move somewhere else to make better money? There isn't anywhere in the country I could live making that little money and have a hope of even paying the minimum on my student loans.

mrlantern said:

I hate NYC. Here's my Big Apple experience.

After getting licensure, I ended up with three dental jobs in the course of a few months. I was producing an average of $500/day. 35% of it was mine. Difficult patients ( one of them was talking of how she could have sued her former dentist for "millions." I have lots more other stories ), difficult environment, difficult staff, difficult employers, difficult commutes, difficult insurance plans...... After quitting job#3, I stayed home for some time. I was in no mood to work anymore. I regretted dentistry big time. I felt like I ruined my financial future by becoming a dentist. I was never in it for the money but I wasn't expecting anything like this.

After getting repeated letters from my loan holders for loan repayment, I started applying to a couple of positions once more. Out of maybe 15 jobs, I finally got a phone call from one of them. I interviewed and accepted the position. Again, I'm averaging $500/day in production, and the standard 35% is mine to take home.

In NYC, is it normal to be producing somewhere like $200-$800/day in a typical position? Anyone else currently practicing in NYC want to comment?

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No offense, but I bet Hygienists in NYC produce more than $500/day. So why not just do hygiene to make more? I know this sounds so wrong, but come on - this is unheard of.

I can't imagine living in NYC with that kind of income, $175/day = $3,500/month before taxes. You may not be in it for the money, but your license will eventually be on the line if you keep yourself in living from pay-check to pay-check.

mrlantern said:

I hate NYC. Here's my Big Apple experience.

After getting licensure, I ended up with three dental jobs in the course of a few months. I was producing an average of $500/day. 35% of it was mine. Difficult patients ( one of them was talking of how she could have sued her former dentist for "millions." I have lots more other stories ), difficult environment, difficult staff, difficult employers, difficult commutes, difficult insurance plans...... After quitting job#3, I stayed home for some time. I was in no mood to work anymore. I regretted dentistry big time. I felt like I ruined my financial future by becoming a dentist. I was never in it for the money but I wasn't expecting anything like this.

After getting repeated letters from my loan holders for loan repayment, I started applying to a couple of positions once more. Out of maybe 15 jobs, I finally got a phone call from one of them. I interviewed and accepted the position. Again, I'm averaging $500/day in production, and the standard 35% is mine to take home.

In NYC, is it normal to be producing somewhere like $200-$800/day in a typical position? Anyone else currently practicing in NYC want to comment?

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I'm calling bull on this one. I've worked at a dentist's office, and the brand spankin new associate produced around a grand on her first day with 35%. I know cuz I took care of the billing, and yes this is in one of the boroughs of NYC. Hopefully, you got some paystubs you can upload for us, otherwise this is a flat out lie.