Careers without Residency

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miamimachoman

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To the SDnet Universe...

I am exploring the idea of career options with an MD and without a residency. Diverse background here (not a science person) and thinking about skipping residency to work for a biotech or pharm firm. Just not sure if I want to spend from age 28 - 34 making $50k/year. Does anyone know what careers options are available for individuals with an MD but lacking a residency? Is it difficult to pursue a residency after a few years of working in business again? Thoughts are much appreciated.

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To the SDnet Universe...

I am exploring the idea of career options with an MD and without a residency. Diverse background here (not a science person) and thinking about skipping residency to work for a biotech or pharm firm. Just not sure if I want to spend from age 28 - 34 making $50k/year. Does anyone know what careers options are available for individuals with an MD but lacking a residency? Is it difficult to pursue a residency after a few years of working in business again? Thoughts are much appreciated.

There are plenty of options!

--You could go into consulting
--You could do a postdoc and start your own lab or go into biotech
--You could postdoc and become a college professor, or not postdoc and work at a community college

Although the MD might make you eligible for a career in biotech, it probably would not be in running clinical trials (they are looking for physicians with clinical experience), so it might be more in research, management, development, etc
 
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Just do a prelim year and get your medical liscense and go to work.

This phenomenon is more and more going by the wayside, for many reasons. One is that most grads don't feel comfortable practicing independently after only one year of training. Another is that while you may be "licensed" you might not be insurable (covered by malpractice), nor covered by many insurance plans, nor will many hospitals give you privileges.
 
This phenomenon is more and more going by the wayside, for many reasons. One is that most grads don't feel comfortable practicing independently after only one year of training. Another is that while you may be "licensed" you might not be insurable (covered by malpractice), nor covered by many insurance plans, nor will many hospitals give you privileges.

Thats probably the biggest thing. Not many hospitals these days will hire someone who did not do a complete residency. Coming to think of it, not many private groups would do that either. I guess you could open your own clinic if you had the seed money
 
This phenomenon is more and more going by the wayside, for many reasons. One is that most grads don't feel comfortable practicing independently after only one year of training. Another is that while you may be "licensed" you might not be insurable (covered by malpractice), nor covered by many insurance plans, nor will many hospitals give you privileges.

Virtually everyone I know who did the 1 year and quit deal is working in urgent care or "cosmetic medicine." Outside of those, practicing medicine without finishing residency is quite limited. Of course, there are other things one can do with an MD/DO. I encourage the OP to do a search because there have been multiple recent threads on this topic. I know a couple were in the general residency forum.
 
To the SDnet Universe...

I am exploring the idea of career options with an MD and without a residency. Diverse background here (not a science person) and thinking about skipping residency to work for a biotech or pharm firm. Just not sure if I want to spend from age 28 - 34 making $50k/year. Does anyone know what careers options are available for individuals with an MD but lacking a residency? Is it difficult to pursue a residency after a few years of working in business again? Thoughts are much appreciated.

Pharm and biotech are not interested in physicians who are not boarded or board-eligible in something. The FDA or other regulatory agencies are now starting to require board eligibility/certification of folks coming in unless you have another degree like MPH/Ph.D.

You might be able to get a job in a research lab but you won't be making more than or about the same as the postdocs who will be making slightly more than the average resident. Even with working in a research lab, you are likely not going to break into the big money or be able to teach (even at the community college level) unless you have another graduate degree (MPH/Ph.D) in something.

You can find plenty of FMG physicians who haven't been able to pass boards or haven't been able to get into a residency who are driving cabs. They have the MD but nothing else. I opened my academic research lab late last year and got 40 applications from FMGs (trying to pass boards and looking for a job) who are doing essentially adjunt teaching work (doesn't pay much) or driving cabs.
 
or be able to teach (even at the community college level) unless you have another graduate degree (MPH/Ph.D) in something.

This might be anecdotal and limited to California, but there are colleges (four year and two) that do hire chiropractors for tenure positions to teach anatomy, physiology, etc. It seems that most two year colleges only require masters and teaching experience
 
Just not sure if I want to spend from age 28 - 34 making $50k/year. Does anyone know what careers options are available for individuals with an MD but lacking a residency? Is it difficult to pursue a residency after a few years of working in business again? Thoughts are much appreciated.

Just noticed this part. Most any job that would hire a non-trained MD/DO is not going to pay much, if any, better than residency and it will likely permanently limit your future earning potential. You're best off completing a residency in something.
 
Pharm and biotech are not interested in physicians who are not boarded or board-eligible in something. The FDA or other regulatory agencies are now starting to require board eligibility/certification of folks coming in unless you have another degree like MPH/Ph.D.

You might be able to get a job in a research lab but you won't be making more than or about the same as the postdocs who will be making slightly more than the average resident. Even with working in a research lab, you are likely not going to break into the big money or be able to teach (even at the community college level) unless you have another graduate degree (MPH/Ph.D) in something.

You can find plenty of FMG physicians who haven't been able to pass boards or haven't been able to get into a residency who are driving cabs. They have the MD but nothing else. I opened my academic research lab late last year and got 40 applications from FMGs (trying to pass boards and looking for a job) who are doing essentially adjunt teaching work (doesn't pay much) or driving cabs.

I have a question-- when you look at say, Harvard's match list, you see that a significant bunch are going into consulting-- consulting what? How does med school make you qualified for this job without a residency?
 
I have a question-- when you look at say, Harvard's match list, you see that a significant bunch are going into consulting-- consulting what? How does med school make you qualified for this job without a residency?

Because people are qualified to be consultants with just a bachelor's degree. The MD might be helpful in healthcare-related consulting, but personally if I wanted to be a consultant I'd just go for it straight out of undergrad, or at most get an MBA.

Edit: That said, consulting is one of the more better looking career paths if you're looking to ditch clinical medicine, since you make enough money to not have your med school loans crush you.
 
I did consulting for 6 years after college.

Most people flame out after a few years from the constant travel or the up or out culture. You have to be a good schmoozer, networker, talker. If you don't possess these skills (you find out quickly after being in it for a little while), you won't have much of a career in consulting.

Bite the bullet and do the residency. You'll be very glad you did. There aren't many areas that you could do that would allow you to easily earn 6 figures like medicine.
 
Because people are qualified to be consultants with just a bachelor's degree. The MD might be helpful in healthcare-related consulting, but personally if I wanted to be a consultant I'd just go for it straight out of undergrad, or at most get an MBA.

Edit: That said, consulting is one of the more better looking career paths if you're looking to ditch clinical medicine, since you make enough money to not have your med school loans crush you.

but the lifestyle sucks - I have lots of friends who were in consulting for a while (out of undergrad), but a lot of them went back to B-school because they were sick of sitting on delayed planes frantically calling their clients to reschedule. One of my friends (who got an MHSA, basically an MBA for healthcare) decided to ditch her well-paying consulting gig to help implement medical startups at a major academic medical center - much less money, but much cooler work.

To the OP, there isn't much you can do without tacking on another degree. If you have a PhD, you could be hired by pharma companies to run medical research, but just an MD with no clinical background won't sell for that, like was said before. An MPH, MBA, or MPA might give you positions in nonprofits, but they won't pay much. Finally, there's getting a law degree and going to the legal side, but obviously that involves more school and debt.

If you're going to get a medical degree, you pretty much better practice medicine. Trust me, I had plenty of options with my background (consulting, law, etc.), and I knew what I was getting into with med school, and glad I did it, even though I'm going to be in debt until I'm 40.
 
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You might be able to get a job in a research lab but you won't be making more than or about the same as the postdocs who will be making slightly more than the average resident. Even with working in a research lab, you are likely not going to break into the big money or be able to teach (even at the community college level) unless you have another graduate degree (MPH/Ph.D) in something.

I'd say postdocs make slightly less than residents. All the postdocs I've worked with have made between 36K and 40K. Granted the hours are much better than residency it's probably twice as much per hour but still less money for the year.
 
Just not sure if I want to spend from age 28 - 34 making $50k/year.

Most residencies are not 5-6 years. FM, EM, Peds, IM (I believe) are 3 year programs. Once you complete residency, you jump from the 50k, to 120k+ or so. If you do fellowships/specialize, than that will increase your time line, but there are several 3 year options out there. So it's making 50k/year from 28-31, not 34.
 
To the SDnet Universe...

I am exploring the idea of career options with an MD and without a residency. Diverse background here (not a science person) and thinking about skipping residency to work for a biotech or pharm firm. Just not sure if I want to spend from age 28 - 34 making $50k/year. Does anyone know what careers options are available for individuals with an MD but lacking a residency? Is it difficult to pursue a residency after a few years of working in business again? Thoughts are much appreciated.
I think that your options would be wide-open, but your chances for success are not. Clearly there are well-known, highly successful people who have taken an alternate path to success, but I suspect that those individuals are the exception. An MD degree without a medical license for independent practice isn't all that helpful, unless you are a talented bench researcher, entrepreneur, writer, businessman, etc. I would think a long time before I decided not to pursue a residency.
 
I stated you don't want to spend your life from ages 28-34 in residency. Not all residencies are 6 yrs. Why not just spend 28-31 doing IM or Peds instead of a huge 6 year residency?
 
To echo earlier sentiments, there are many thing you could do with an MD, but there is not much $$ or future in most of it. Medical writing, college professor (non tenure track @ best),consulting (whatever that means).

The consensus is that you spend 4 years of medical school learning to practice medicine, a profession. It is very difficult, very admirable, but if you don't go into clinical medicine all those skills and knowledge do not translate very well into the "real" world. The MD degree just does not travel as well as the MBA or JD degrees. You essentially learned a trade you will now not use. Sure you'll be the best educated person in the company but, as far as management is concerned, you have no relevant experience.

There is a mod on SDN Dr. J Kim who specializes in helping physician's transition into non-clinical jobs. Be aware that it will be a long road, and even that it is doubtful you'll make comparable $$ outside clinical medicine without earning another grad degree (MBA,JD,PhD).

If you know you don't want to do clinical med, start making some serious plans now. Finish the degree unless you can somehow transition into another program. I have a friend who left her MD school after 2 years to enter the PHD program @ the same school.

Don't spend all the time, not to mention $$ earning a degree you don't think you'll ever use except as window dressing. Figure out what you want, and then see if having an MD will make a diff in that path.

Good Luck.
 
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Agree with what has been said.....Unfortunately there is just NO easy way in this medical arena... (Unless you invent something profound like "cardiac cath" like Andreas Grundzig did) [Actually the guy died in a plane crash-once again NO easy way!]

In this field you basically hope you and your family stay healthy and fight for your life..:luck:
 
you can join the military and practice medicine. the navy, in particular, looks favorably on physicians who will practice prior to doing a residency. i even know of a few folks who did this for 5 years, but most do 2-3. then, if you choose, you will be extra competitive for navy residencies. or you could go some other route (administrative, command, etc). the same is true of the army, but to a lesser extent. of course you won't be promoted very well if you never do a residency, but you still get paid beyond the range you are looking at. and, you will have virtually no time commitment if you never do a residency.
 
Just do a prelim year and get your medical liscense and go to work.

I’ve never heard of getting a license after a one year residency in the US. So I would be able to practice general medicine in a private practice after a one year residency? I could not find any info online about these programs. If anybody has any info please let me know.
 
Let's say you become a cardiologist, arn't there jobs at there for you besides clinical medicine? As a specialist, I would think you are valuable to many companies. I am graduating soon and looking into getting out of clinical medicine after a fellowship. I feel the fellowship will open many doors for me.

Medicine is just not worth it.
 
I’ve never heard of getting a license after a one year residency in the US. So I would be able to practice general medicine in a private practice after a one year residency? I could not find any info online about these programs. If anybody has any info please let me know.

It varies a bit from state to state, but in most of them you are eligible to get your license once you pass USMLE Step III and finish your intern year. (That's why PGY2s and above can often moonlight. Because they're fully licensed physicians even if they aren't board eligible/certified)

There's no official programs in that regard, just you could work that way if you wanted. You'd have quite a bit of trouble getting hospital privileges, and as an extension a lot of insurance companies would be hesitant about including you as a preferred provider. But you'd be able to work for yourself in a private practice as long as you had a valid medical license.
 
I’ve never heard of getting a license after a one year residency in the US. So I would be able to practice general medicine in a private practice after a one year residency? I could not find any info online about these programs. If anybody has any info please let me know.

It doesn't happen anymore. Hospitals won't credential you if you don't complete residency and insurance companies won't reimburse you. If you work at a cash-based urgent care clinic, then you could probably pull this off.

Let's say you become a cardiologist, arn't there jobs at there for you besides clinical medicine? As a specialist, I would think you are valuable to many companies. I am graduating soon and looking into getting out of clinical medicine after a fellowship. I feel the fellowship will open many doors for me.

Medicine is just not worth it.

Why torture yourself by completing a clinical residency such as IM, FM, peds and then fellowship? If you don't like clinical medicine, pick a non-clinical residency to begin with like rads, gas, path or one that is mostly clinic-based like derm, rad onc, ophtho. If you look at the ROAD specialties, you'll see a common thread in all of them. DON'T FOLLOW PATIENTS. Your quality of life goes way up if you keep that in mind. Either do a non-clinical or clinic-based specialty.
 
I fail to see how a degree alone will make a person qualified for consulting. Getting experience in the area is key.

Suck it up and do the residency. You might find a lot of it more interesting and enjoyable than you realize.


OTOH I say a documentary years ago on physicians in residency. One of them left her residency program and began working as some sort of online consultant.

Personally, I still think it is best to get a lot of clinical experience. There's a ton of learning in residency and in clinical experience in general. It's a forever learning kind of field anyway.
 
Let's say you become a cardiologist, arn't there jobs at there for you besides clinical medicine? As a specialist, I would think you are valuable to many companies. I am graduating soon and looking into getting out of clinical medicine after a fellowship. I feel the fellowship will open many doors for me.

Medicine is just not worth it.

That's ridiculous. You hate medicine such that the only reason for putting yourself through 6+ more years of training is to be better qualified in giving drug lectures for Merck? I think you are seriously underestimating the degree of difficulty involved in accomplishing a residency, to say nothing of a fellowship.
 
That's ridiculous. You hate medicine such that the only reason for putting yourself through 6+ more years of training is to be better qualified in giving drug lectures for Merck? I think you are seriously underestimating the degree of difficulty involved in accomplishing a residency, to say nothing of a fellowship.

I guess I'll only learn with experience. I just feel that the way things are going medicine might be better if you go into the private sector.

Just a thought..

**I don't hate medicine. I just feel the work put in may not be worth it.
 
To the SDnet Universe...

I am exploring the idea of career options with an MD and without a residency. Diverse background here (not a science person) and thinking about skipping residency to work for a biotech or pharm firm. Just not sure if I want to spend from age 28 - 34 making $50k/year. Does anyone know what careers options are available for individuals with an MD but lacking a residency? Is it difficult to pursue a residency after a few years of working in business again? Thoughts are much appreciated.

I'm facing the same issue but I'm still just a pre-med. Considering other career paths here.

I did consulting for 6 years after college.

Most people flame out after a few years from the constant travel or the up or out culture. You have to be a good schmoozer, networker, talker. If you don't possess these skills (you find out quickly after being in it for a little while), you won't have much of a career in consulting.

Bite the bullet and do the residency. You'll be very glad you did. There aren't many areas that you could do that would allow you to easily earn 6 figures like medicine.

Hey Tauras! What would you recommend to a pre-med? I'm pretty miserable as a pre-med at the moment and was thinking about consulting (my 2nd cousin is a consultant/entrepreneur.) It sounds pretty nice compared to what I've been reading about med school.
 
Hey Tauras! What would you recommend to a pre-med? I'm pretty miserable as a pre-med at the moment and was thinking about consulting (my 2nd cousin is a consultant/entrepreneur.) It sounds pretty nice compared to what I've been reading about med school.

I recommend computer science +/- accounting/finance. Even if you don't get into consulting, these degrees will get you a job at least.
 
yeah, I would throw an engineering degree in the mix as well. Couple of friends that do this and seem to enjoy it. Going to med school solely to get into consulting would be borderline insane.
 
I recommend computer science +/- accounting/finance. Even if you don't get into consulting, these degrees will get you a job at least.

I really don't care about the pay; I just want to do it because I like being the one that people listen to and the one that gives advice. Medicine kind of has that too, but the training is way to long and I don't really like learning about cells all day.

But... why the pessimistic view? Jw

yeah, I would throw an engineering degree in the mix as well. Couple of friends that do this and seem to enjoy it. Going to med school solely to get into consulting would be borderline insane.

Isn't there people here that do that? lol
 
I really don't care about the pay; I just want to do it because I like being the one that people listen to and the one that gives advice. Medicine kind of has that too, but the training is way to long and I don't really like learning about cells all day.

Lol. :laugh: If you think that's what you will get in consulting, you're in for a rude awakening. Maybe when you're a partner that will happen. But only a tiny, tiny number of people become partners. It takes a lot of smarts, political skills, networking, buttkissing, very good luck, etc to make it. Even if you become partner, you have a lot of stress of hitting your numbers and managing multiple projects.

Let's just say this. You have a better chance of becoming a doctor than partner at a big consulting or even law firm. I wouldn't give up medicine yet because you think it will be easier path in consulting. The path in consulting is much less uncertain. There's a good chance you won't last more than 5 years in consulting. Majority of people don't. That's why there's such a high turnover and why they need to recruit aggressively to keep their pipelines full.
 
Lol. :laugh: If you think that's what you will get in consulting, you're in for a rude awakening. Maybe when you're a partner that will happen. But only a tiny, tiny number of people become partners. It takes a lot of smarts, political skills, networking, buttkissing, very good luck, etc to make it. Even if you become partner, you have a lot of stress of hitting your numbers and managing multiple projects.

Let's just say this. You have a better chance of becoming a doctor than partner at a big consulting or even law firm. I wouldn't give up medicine yet because you think it will be easier path in consulting. The path in consulting is much less uncertain. There's a good chance you won't last more than 5 years in consulting. Majority of people don't. That's why there's such a high turnover and why they need to recruit aggressively to keep their pipelines full.

:smuggrin: Who said there's no uncertainty in Medicine? Just look at the OP, tons of uncertainty in his point. Besides, we're all smart guys here; you, me and everyone on these boards, if we can get into and complete med school -a splendid feat I must say- then why not something like consulting? Here's an example, I could walk out right now, drive over to Taco Bell and on the way there I could (god forbid, this is just for the sake of giving a real life example)

1. Get robbed and killed

2. Car Accident

3. Heart Attack

Though these are unlikely, there's still uncertainty in every prospect of life. What's life if you can't take risks?

Politics are in med too you know.

@OP, wanted to know if you found any potential fields that don't require residency?
 
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:smuggrin: Who said there's no uncertainty in Medicine? Just look at the OP, tons of uncertainty in his point. Besides, we're all smart guys here; you, me and everyone on these boards, if we can get into and complete med school -a splendid feat I must say- then why not something like consulting?

>95% of people will get through a US med school.

Only a small fraction (<< 1%) will make it as partner.

Big difference.

It's a lot more difficult to make it as partner than you think. You're way overestimating your chances. If you don't make it, you'll be wishing you had gone to med school instead.

Don't say that nobody warned you.
 
>95% of people will get through a US med school.

Only a small fraction (<< 1%) will make it as partner.

Big difference.

It's a lot more difficult to make it as partner than you think. You're way overestimating your chances. If you don't make it, you'll be wishing you had gone to med school instead.

Don't say that nobody warned you.

:laugh: No hard feelings man, I didn't mean to argue with you or anything. It just seems like Medicine is not that great by the way people always talk about ballin in new york as a Hedge Fund manager or McKinsey consultant, well at least all the people at my school (top 20).

Didn't you say you worked in consulting or something in this topic? Don't mean to get too personal but why did you leave it? Personally I'd be happy just having the job, who cares if you never make partner. That's like saying you're unhappy as a hospital doc because you're not the doc in charge.
 
:laugh: No hard feelings man, I didn't mean to argue with you or anything. It just seems like Medicine is not that great by the way people always talk about ballin in new york as a Hedge Fund manager or McKinsey consultant, well at least all the people at my school (top 20).

Didn't you say you worked in consulting or something in this topic? Don't mean to get too personal but why did you leave it? Personally I'd be happy just having the job, who cares if you never make partner. That's like saying you're unhappy as a hospital doc because you're not the doc in charge.

I know some of those people making obscene amounts of money and I know a lot more who work their arse off and don't. When all is said and done, you WILL invest as much, if not more time to reach your goals and be in the upper echelons. Nobody walks into it.

Business majors are funny people. They always seem to over exaggerate that stuff and all expect to be in the big leagues. The ones that don't talk about it are usually the ones that are making waves. I was a tech/business type major and the quiet ones all got really big time jobs because they weren't out bragging over beers. They were studying and networking.
 
Personally I'd be happy just having the job, who cares if you never make partner. That's like saying you're unhappy as a hospital doc because you're not the doc in charge.

Famous last words. :laugh:

Anyone with any iota of work experience will laugh at your naive statement. Anyways, I'll let you find out for yourself.
 
Famous last words. :laugh:

Anyone with any iota of work experience will laugh at your naive statement. Anyways, I'll let you find out for yourself.

Ok perhaps you're right BUT, working in a field like that opens many doors. You could enjoy a cushy lifestyle because "Consulting" on a resume = :thumbup::thumbup:

That vs. 4 yrs pre-med, mcat, interview, 4 yrs med school, USMLE exams, interview, 3-4 years residency.

Now how can med school be better?
 
Ok perhaps you're right BUT, working in a field like that opens many doors. You could enjoy a cushy lifestyle because "Consulting" on a resume = :thumbup::thumbup:

That vs. 4 yrs pre-med, mcat, interview, 4 yrs med school, USMLE exams, interview, 3-4 years residency.

Now how can med school be better?

If you put in the same amount of hard work into consulting as you would have put in to becoming a doctor, I'm sure your chances of becoming successful and living a cushy lifestyle would rise from 1% to 95%. However, if you're reading about medical school and residency and thinking "there is no way I'm going to put myself through that" then obviously you're not going to have the motivation to bust your tail in the same way that you would if you had gone to medical school. The bottom line is, if you want to bring home the bacon, you've got to work for it.
 
Maybe it is dependent on the medical school but consulting firms most definitely are interested more and more in graduates with MDs and scientific PhDs. There are usually at least 3-5 students each year from top 10 med schools that go the way of consulting firms and I do not think they would do it if the earning potential was not at least as good as a practicing physician. Top consulting firms like McKinsey not only accept applications from MDs but are actively recruiting from certain medical schools- these firms know what MD candidates earning potentials are as a future physician so have to match that in order to entice MDs into working for their firms. By working as a consultant, you may have a larger role in shaping the future of healthcare delivery or biotech industry than you would as a practicing physician...
 
If you put in the same amount of hard work into consulting as you would have put in to becoming a doctor, I'm sure your chances of becoming successful and living a cushy lifestyle would rise from 1% to 95%. However, if you're reading about medical school and residency and thinking "there is no way I'm going to put myself through that" then obviously you're not going to have the motivation to bust your tail in the same way that you would if you had gone to medical school. The bottom line is, if you want to bring home the bacon, you've got to work for it.

Med School is a completely different kind of work. First, you don't get paid anything for your efforts. Second, it's basically "studying" type of work and not typical corporate work. Third, I never said I wouldn't work hard during residency; but to get there you have to endure Medical School first.
 
Dana Scully was recruited from med school by the FBI--that's the way to go!
 
What happened to that Tauras guy? I was enjoying debating with him :laugh:
 
This phenomenon is more and more going by the wayside, for many reasons. One is that most grads don't feel comfortable practicing independently after only one year of training. Another is that while you may be "licensed" you might not be insurable (covered by malpractice), nor covered by many insurance plans, nor will many hospitals give you privileges.


Very true.

Someone above mentioned consulting. It is true that many consultants do not need to complete a residency, but I have heard that those who have completed at least one year (prelim, transitional) and then become licensed are a much more valuable commodity. It may be worth your while to research this and maybe bite the bullet and put one year in (and then get your license).
 
Ok perhaps you're right BUT, working in a field like that opens many doors. You could enjoy a cushy lifestyle because "Consulting" on a resume = :thumbup::thumbup:

That vs. 4 yrs pre-med, mcat, interview, 4 yrs med school, USMLE exams, interview, 3-4 years residency.

Now how can med school be better?

THIS.

Don't forget to add another interview, fellowship, specialty board exams, then subspecialty boards. And recertification exams every 10 years thereafter.

Having said that... I agree with Taurus. MD is quite useless unless you are practicing medicine.

Once you got MD, you have sunk it significant chunk of time, effort, and money... it may be in your best interest to sunk in some more and do residency... not sure though. Everybody's situation is different. If you KNOW you have a good alternative, go for it
 
What about medical research? Designing drugs for a pharmaceutical? (such as cancer, aids drug researchers)

I think the pharma companies do still want internal medicine board exam passed though...but hey you can always ask, right?
 
To pre-meds reading this who are looking at going into medicine as a purely economic decision, it's actually not that bad a prospect.

To preface this discussion, let's hold aside matters like whether practicing medicine will leave you a miserable husk of a human being (I didn't particularly care for internal medicine :cool: ) and focus only on numbers.

Let's assume you go into anesthesia. Relatively easy to match into so a fairly safe bet and makes a descent income after. In your first four years out of college you loose ~$200k, then make ~$50 for 4 years. Net total, even minus interest, let's say -$30k total. Each year after, you make $250,000. Leaving out inflation and assuming a 35 year career, that's $8.72 M lifetime earnings in today's dollars in your career.

Compare to an average engineer who doesn't get into management (the vast majority of work-a-day engineers). You make $60k coming out and gradually work up to about $120k after 20 years assuming steady promotions. For ease of calculation, let's say you get a $20k raise at 5 and 10 years. Over the same 42 year timeframe, you make $4.74 million unadjusted for inflation.

Now let's take a management consultant who makes it to partner. Now here's the kicker, I used to work as a management consultant, and stats at my big 4 firm showed only 1 in 20 people made it to partner. Even so, let's check how the numbers work out. 2 years as post-BA associate at $60, 2 years of business school at -$60k, two years of post-mba associate at $120k, three years as project manager at $200k. 7 years as principle at $300k then on average, 26 as partner at, oh let's go, $750k. $22.4 M total, a clear winner. However, remember, there is only a 5% chance of you getting to this point.

For big law, the numbers work out about the same (maybe like 25% higher at earlier career phases) with also about a 5% chance of making partner. For finance, just double all the numbers.

However, let's say you get booted out of consulting and to the regular business world. Usually, people leave for a job making about as much money as they were while consulting, and more or less stay there. Some people work there way up the corporate food chain to become CEOs and so forth, but that is the vast minority of people, a percentage too low to mention. Equivalent to the amount of super-successful entrepreneurs.

So if you get booted at post-mba associate, total lifetime earnings $4.6M. Booted as project manager (about a 33% chance of making it that far) $7.4M. Booted as principle (about 10% chance of making it that far) $11.3 M.

Total expectation value from going into consulting: $6.5 M.

Finance becomes more complicated because if you leave/are fired, you generally leave for significantly lower paying jobs, and I've killed enough time on this already.

So in sort, in my head, assuming promotions work based solely on random chance, the expectation value of lifetime earnings from going into medicine is great than that from going into other fields with less security.

However, if you think you are that magic person with special interpersonal skills that can take you to the higher echelons of those fields, then taking the gamble is probably the way to go.

And if you really want to the live the high flying dream and go entrepreneurship where the distribution goes from $25k for a lifetime to billions, or if you think you have what it takes to become a CEO of a fortune 500 company, have a fun ride. A different kind of adventure than medicine, but one non-the-less.

Or you can say **** the whole amount of money you'll make as a 56 year old thing and go enjoy your life. Whatever floats your boat.

Jake2 has spoken

PS. I don't want to hear anything about the god damn time value of money. Unless you have been making 10% a year interest on your investments for the last ten years, don't expect to do it again in the future. Learn to live with Bank of America's 1.5% saving's account rate or whatever it is.
 
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To pre-meds reading this who are looking at going into medicine as a purely economic decision, it's actually not that bad a prospect.

To preface this discussion, let's hold aside matters like whether practicing medicine will leave you a miserable husk of a human being (I didn't particularly care for internal medicine :cool: ) and focus only on numbers.

Let's assume you go into anesthesia. Relatively easy to match into so a fairly safe bet and makes a descent income after. In your first four years out of college you loose ~$200k, then make ~$50 for 4 years. Net total, even minus interest, let's say -$30k total. Each year after, you make $250,000. Leaving out inflation and assuming a 35 year career, that's $8.72 M lifetime earnings in today's dollars in your career.

Compare to an average engineer who doesn't get into management (the vast majority of work-a-day engineers). You make $60k coming out and gradually work up to about $120k after 20 years assuming steady promotions. For ease of calculation, let's say you get a $20k raise at 5 and 10 years. Over the same 42 year timeframe, you make $4.74 million unadjusted for inflation.

Now let's take a management consultant who makes it to partner. Now here's the kicker, I used to work as a management consultant, and stats at my big 4 firm showed only 1 in 20 people made it to partner. Even so, let's check how the numbers work out. 2 years as post-BA associate at $60, 2 years of business school at -$60k, two years of post-mba associate at $120k, three years as project manager at $200k. 7 years as principle at $300k then on average, 26 as partner at, oh let's go, $750k. $22.4 M total, a clear winner. However, remember, there is only a 5% chance of you getting to this point.

For big law, the numbers work out about the same (maybe like 25% higher at earlier career phases) with also about a 5% chance of making partner. For finance, just double all the numbers.

However, let's say you get booted out of consulting and to the regular business world. Usually, people leave for a job making about as much money as they were while consulting, and more or less stay there. Some people work there way up the corporate food chain to become CEOs and so forth, but that is the vast minority of people, a percentage too low to mention. Equivalent to the amount of super-successful entrepreneurs.

So if you get booted at post-mba associate, total lifetime earnings $4.6M. Booted as project manager (about a 33% chance of making it that far) $7.4M. Booted as principle (about 10% chance of making it that far) $11.3 M.

Total expectation value from going into consulting: $6.5 M.

Finance becomes more complicated because if you leave/are fired, you generally leave for significantly lower paying jobs, and I've killed enough time on this already.

So in sort, in my head, assuming promotions work based solely on random chance, the expectation value of lifetime earnings from going into medicine is great than that from going into other fields with less security.

However, if you think you are that magic person with special interpersonal skills that can take you to the higher echelons of those fields, then taking the gamble is probably the way to go.

And if you really want to the live the high flying dream and go entrepreneurship where the distribution goes from $25k for a lifetime to billions, or if you think you have what it takes to become a CEO of a fortune 500 company, have a fun ride. A different kind of adventure than medicine, but one non-the-less.

Or you can say **** the whole amount of money you'll make as a 56 year old thing and go enjoy your life. Whatever floats your boat.

Jake2 has spoken

PS. I don't want to hear anything about the god damn time value of money. Unless you have been making 10% a year interest on your investments for the last ten years, don't expect to do it again in the future. Learn to live with Bank of America's 1.5% saving's account rate or whatever it is.
You need to compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. I'll use law as an example, but the comparison holds for a lot of different professions.

The average lawyer is not as intelligent or driven as the average doctor. Its far, far easier to get into *a* law school than it is to get into *a* med school (as anyone who has looked at both processes can tell you). Its probably roughly equivalent difficulty to get into a top 50 law school as it is to get into any US MD school, and those who go to top tier (top 50) med schools could probably have managed to get into a top 14 law school.

Law has an extremely bimodal distribution for salaries, especially starting salaries, and those individuals who could have been doctors (and attended good law schools) will almost certainly be in the higher part of it. Those are the individuals who have a much higher than 5% chance of making partner.

In fact, I'd venture to say that most people who could make it into a good med school and would be smart/driven enough to match into a decent specialty (lets say ROAD, EM, ENT, Uro, etc) could have probably made it to a decent position in a law firm. Same with finance or management. We forget this sometimes because of the groups of people who are in medical school with us, but by the time we get into a US MD school, we've already been put through the ringer to chose some of the best students that are around. Ignoring some special cases where individuals might not have the best qualifications, even that one ******* from your class who was tossing the cadaver's kidney around is well above the average college graduate, much less the average person on the street.
 
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